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Updated 14.30
WITH THE BUDGET looming, James Reilly earlier this week called for the price of a pack of cigarettes to go up by 50 cents.
The Children’s Minister, who was architect of last year’s plain packaging law, claimed the tax hike would bring in an extra €63 million, and encourage more smokers to quit.
But is this true?
Does raising taxes on cigarettes and tobacco actually give the government the extra money they predict every year, and reduce the number of smokers in Ireland?
And is it the best way to achieve those goals?
Show me the money
Despite Dr Reilly’s claims, sharp increases in tobacco excise have been far from the money-spinner the Fine Gael/Labour government has been predicting, a new analysis by TheJournal.ie shows.
When it comes to the Tobacco Products Tax (TPT), Finance Minister Michael Noonan’s first three budgets have led to a cumulative budget shortfall of almost a quarter of a billion euro.
In the 2012 budget, he predicted a €41 million yield from adding 25 cents to a pack of 20, among other measures. In reality, there was a €94 million shortfall.
The following year, a €25 million gain was budgeted for, after a 10-cent increase, but a €33 million shortfall transpired.
In the 2014 budget, Noonan predicted a €15 million gain, but another 10-cent hike was followed by a €95 million drop – leaving a cumulative shortfall of €223 million in the lifetime of the government.
Figures for 2015 are not complete yet, obviously, but provisional Revenue numbers given to TheJournal.ie indicate a likely clawback of some of that shortfall.
Revenue from the TPT is on course to exceed expectations by €32 million, by the end of this year, after a 40 cent increase in the price of a pack of 20 cigarettes.
The previous Fianna Fáil/Green coalition government also ran a budget shortfall on tobacco, which came to €175 million between 2007 and 2010.
What this means is that, over the past eight budgets and two governments, much-vaunted tax increases on tobacco have, in reality, left Ireland with a budget gap of €367 million.
In the UK, predicted tobacco tax yields are calculated using an analysis of smoking trends (numbers who quit, move to electronic cigarettes and other alternatives), and the new excise rate is applied to that.
So budget gaps are somewhat accounted for, and used retroactively to estimate the level of tobacco smuggling each year.
In Ireland, by contrast, tobacco tax yields appear to be based on “assuming no change in consumer behaviour,” as Michael Noonan outlined in response to a PQ from Michael McGrath.
The Fianna Fáil Finance spokesperson asked in July what the yield would be from a 25 and 50 cent price increase, and Noonan replied:
I am informed by the Revenue Commissioners that the estimated yield that could be raised in a full year through increasing the tax on cigarettes by 25 cent and 50 cent, with a pro rata increase in duty on other tobacco products, is in the region of €30m and €60m respectively, assuming no change in consumer behaviour.
TheJournal.ie asked the Department of Finance to explain how it estimates tobacco excise yields, whether it adjusts its expectations based on the previous year’s figures, and to account for the budget gap since 2011.
We did not receive a response to those detailed questions.
But what if the real purpose of raising tobacco tax is not extra revenue, but rather forcing smokers to quit? Does that work?
Public health warning
“It’s a public health measure,” Michael Noonan told a caller on Today With Seán O’Rourke, the day after last year’s budget.
I could have done my end of the budget yesterday without increasing excise on cigarettes. The increase wasn’t done for tax-raising reasons.
The increase was to provide another disincentive to smoking, especially for young people. And all the advice is that price increases are the biggest disincentive to smoking.
Let’s set aside rolling tobacco and cigars for a moment, and look at the numbers for cigarette consumption, which accounts for 95% of tobacco use in Ireland.
Roughly 50 billion cigarettes have been bought and sold legally, with tax paid, in Ireland since 2004.
Their retail value amounted to €19.7 billion, and 59% of that (€11.6 billion) went into state coffers in the form of the Tobacco Products Tax (not to mention VAT).
As shown in the chart below, tax-paid cigarette sales have significantly dropped in the last decade, from a high of 5.65 billion in 2006, to 3.2 billion in 2014.
But the effect of tax increases on smoking prevalence is one of the most hotly-contested issues when it comes to tobacco and public health.
International research varies on the extent to which making smokes more expensive forces people to quit, and prevents ex-smokers from starting again, or whether it’s the best strategy for reducing smoking levels.
The World Health Organisation, for example, claims that a 10% increase in the price of a pack of cigarettes decreases smoking by 4% in high-income countries (like Ireland).
And in Ireland, groups such as the Irish Cancer Society and ASH have long called for progressively increasing tax hikes on tobacco products.
In Ireland, the Tobacco Products Tax is composed of a “specific rate” – a tax per 1,000 cigarettes or per kilogramme of loose tobacco – and an ad valorem rate – a fixed percentage of the retail price of a pack of cigarettes.
In the 2013 Budget, Michael Noonan sharply increased the specific rate (from €192.44 to €237.69 per 1,000 cigarettes), and lowered the ad valorem rate (from 18.03% to 8.83%).
He also introduced a “minimum excise rate” to “avoid a downward leveraging of the price.”
This means the government’s policy is explicitly designed to prevent manufacturers from lowering the cost of cigarettes and tobacco for the consuer, on the understanding that higher prices force smokers to quit.
So let’s take the average price per pack in Ireland over the last decade, and plot it against the number of cigarettes sold.
As shown in the chart above, there does at least appear to be a correlation, if not a causal link, between increasing prices, and decreasing cigarette consumption.
As one goes up, the other goes down.
In 2004, the average pack of 20 smokes cost €6.25 and 5.4 billion cigarettes were sold. By 2014, the price had risen to €10, while sales fell to 3.2 billion.
However, the claim that higher taxes force smokers to quit has been met with scepticism in some quarters.
And at the heart of the issue is something not shown in the last chart…
The Black Market
As the price of a pack of cigarettes has risen over the past decade or so, tobacco smuggling and non-Irish duty paid cigarettes – sometimes sold at half the retail price – have undergone something of an explosion.
In 2007, the percentage of cigarettes coming from untaxed trade was 6.7%, according to market research company Euromonitor International.
Over the next two years, successive tax hikes increased the price of a pack by 50 cents, 30 cents, and 75 cents.
And the untaxed share of the market rocketed to 19.8% by 2009. In 2014, it was just over 23%.
As shown in this chart, there again appears to be a clear correlation – as the price goes up, the prevalence of untaxed, cheaper cigarettes also goes up.
In December 2009, Finance Minister Brian Lenihan ended the trend of tax increases and explicitly blamed them for the rise in illicit trade.
I have decided not to make any changes to excise on tobacco in this Budget because I believe the high price is now giving rise to massive cigarette smuggling.
And in a 2013 Budget debate, Michael Noonan himself discussed the difficulty of drawing a straight line between tax and price increases, and smoking rates.
Many issues arise with regard to the tobacco and cigarette business, for example, smuggling.
I am not sure about the statistic that every €1 increase in the price of a packet of cigarettes reduces smoking.
It is possible that what appears to be a reduction in consumption is simply a transfer of consumption to smuggled cigarettes.
In February 2011, just before Fine Gael and Labour came into office, Revenue itself issued a major report on the “Economics of Tobacco” in Ireland.
Their conclusion?
Further tax (price) rises will reduce smoking somewhat but they will also greatly encourage more untaxed consumption.
Increasing the taxation of cigarettes in Ireland no longer carries the combined benefits of better public health and higher revenue for the public finances that would have arisen from such increases in the past.
At the very least, these benefits are severely weakened by the substitution of untaxed for taxed consumption.
This suggests that taxation increases are no longer the optimum tool for reducing smoking in Ireland.
So what other “tools” are being used by the government to help smokers quit, as part of their stated mission of making Ireland a “tobacco-free society” by the year 2025?
Help is coming?
The government’s main initiative to bring down smoking levels is in the form of QUIT – a HSE support service that involves a freephone service and website offering advice and resources for smokers trying to kick the habit.
For those who find it too difficult to quit cold turkey, the HSE does provide free nicotine replacement therapy (NRT) such as gum, inhalers and the patch, to anyone with a medical card.
Overall, figures provided to TheJournal.ie show that the HSE has spent over €37 million on smoking cessation efforts since 2011.
Some 86% of that went towards providing nicotine replacement therapy, and the rest was spent on staff costs, and running the Quitline.
However, none of the money raised by increasing taxes on tobacco – the purpose of which is, according to Minister Noonan, to bring down smoking prevalence – is ring-fenced to actually help smokers quit.
According to Revenue numbers, taxes raised from tobacco – the tobacco products tax and VAT – amounted to €5.54 billion from 2011 to 2014.
In the same period, the HSE’s total smoking cessation program cost €33.7 million.
So to cover what the government spends helping smokers quit, it would have required ring-fencing just 0.61% of what it makes by taxing them, as shown in the graphic below.
And ring-fencing five percent of tobacco taxes would have freed up €277 million to provide effective help, and aggressive publicising of that help, to the estimated 705,000 smokers in Ireland.
According to a study published in the Irish Medical Journal, 47,147 people availed of free NRT in 2002, the first year it was introduced.
But using OECD smoking data, and CSO population figures, we know there were roughly 834,000 smokers in the country at that time.
This leaves huge ground to cover in the government’s stated mission of helping smokers quit.
The Irish Heart Foundation and Irish Cancer Society, in a joint pre-budget submission this year, have called for a levy on tobacco industry profits, part of which they say should go towards making NRT free for everyone, and not just medical card holders.
Simply levying ‘sin taxes’ on products that are addictive will not achieve the desired outcome. Users also need help to quit.
That is why we are asking the Minister for Finance to ring‐fence revenue from a tobacco profits levy on the tobacco industry for supports to help people quit.
By their estimation, a 25% levy on tobacco manufacturers in 2010, for example, would have raised €37.9 million – enough to cover the cost of the HSE’s entire smoking cessation programme for the following five years.
We’ll find out on Tuesday, whether any of these changes come to pass.
Originally published 7.30am
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How about legalising it for medicinal purposes first?
@The Risen: how about just legalise it full stop. Take the criminal gangs out of the equation and collect the vat on it.
@The Risen: Hopefully a competent politician can step forward to legislate for this.
The last attempt while well intentioned was a shambles and was written so badly it would have wreaked havoc to proceed and so failed to pass the senate.
Then for some reason, folks decided to blame that FG pharmacy owner citing vested interests, which is fine if you wanna be a sore loser, but if we actually want to offer medical marijuana as a legit option, the motions put forward need to be well written, otherwise it cannot pass the senate. Blaming senators for voting no, who did so on legislative contradiction grounds, completely cops out on the work required to solve the problem.
@Ciarán Ó Fallúin: “how about just legalise it full stop”
Oh, I agree 100%. But I think it would be faster to legalise it first for medicinal use, getting it to the people who need it the most as quickly as possible.
@The Risen: putting words in my mouth. (The other fella, Mr Maher said that). I’d agree with you though, it’s easier to legislate in stages and those who need this most should be prioritised.
@Ciarán Ó Fallúin: Yep, clicked on the wrong reply button there. it was @ Thomas.
@The Risen: how about pushing for both lets walk and chew gum and get this legalised,The green party are a bunch of sellouts who wrecked the country in 2009 in the crash but The majority of Irish would be ok with this, its the drink industry blocking it cause it would empty bars and ER’s of their customers.and cost them profits when people dont need to binge drink to relax, be it a magic cake or an edible.
Also cannabis for medical use has massive benefits that big pharma would prefer not allowed in Ireland. Be it for recreation or medical use, Ireland could benefit from cannabis if it was legal and properly regulated and produce to a high standard that drinks and pills sold in Ireland are. It would also reduce crime and lost of taxes to the black market drugs trade another group who do not want cannabis legalised.
@Matthew O’Kane: “The majority of Irish would be ok with this, its the drink industry blocking it cause it would empty bars”
Legalization will not cause the bars to empty, just like legalizing gay marriage didn’t cause society to crumble or abortion the same. It’s about choice.
I am an adult, I should be allow make choices for myself because I am of legal age to take full responsibility for my actions as long as my actions do not harm or cause distress to other people.
@Matthew O’Kane: I agree. It will empty bars. A big reason why it’s not available for medical reasons.
@Oscar Scatters: Exactly Oscar, thats the real crux of the matter. Stop its prohibition and allow adults to make up their own minds, I would suggest however that for recreational use the age limit should be 21.
@Thomas Maher: I agree fully with decriminalisation for cannabis and think the Green Party are making a good move to move beyond bulbs and bikes and appeal to younger voters etc. But I don’t understand how people seem to think that criminal gangs will walk away from ‘the equation’ as you put it- that makes no sense , it just isn’t logical to expect criminals to stop dealing because there are coffee shops – same as cigarette black markets – too lucrative and simplistic to think this makes them stop. All the evidence from Amsterdam would also indicate that just because there are legal coffee shops that the criminals flee – quite the opposite actually. I still think Ireland should decriminalise – but lets not pretend that makes criminality go away !!!!!!
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/20/netherlands-becoming-a-narco-state-warn-dutch-police
@Frank Cauldhame: 18
@Dave Hammond: Nobody said they would go away, but i would prefer to see the tax revenue from sales ploughed back into the country instead of some faceless dealers cashpile.
@Gus Sheridan: Reason I say 21 is that cannabis ‘can’ affect the developing mind for a small minority of teen users. Better to be safe than sorry.
@Niall Quinlan: So does alcohol!
@Frank Cauldhame: If you’re old enough to vote you’re old enough to toke.
@Dave Hammond: I don’t know anybody that thinks crime will disappear once cannabis is legal?
@Gus Sheridan: I think 21 would be safer not that its going to kill anyone but for the reasons outlined by the above posts.
@Dave Hammond: Good points Dave but if it was sold legally in ‘coffee shops’ people wouldn’t have to enter seedy parts of the city to buy it.
@Dave Hammond: the reason criminals still involved in cannabis in Netherlands is because it only becomes a legal product when it lands in the coffe shop. Growing is not legal. So the Netherlands government are effectively laundering money
@Frank Cauldhame: because we’re in America all of a sudden? Or the more dangerous alcohol should be the first drug of choice? Or because making kids be only ones who stay in the illegal system makes sense?
@Frank Cauldhame: why?
@Thomas Maher: you know that it would be over priced and people will go back to the steel for it. A pint of Guinness is cheaper in London than it is in Dublin.
@The Risen: They did?
@The Risen: this needs to be legalised for anyone who is suffering chronic pain and believe me you it is intolerable
@The Risen: why first ? Why not both ?
@Matthew O’Kane: would empty ER’s, utter nonsense. You would have increased volumes in ER’s. You seriously people will not use and drive impaired, cars, bikes, buses?
Should never be legalised. There’s a reason the UK rescinded the more lax laws they brought in on cannibals use/possession….
Medically prescribed I have no issue with, but legalising for social use. No thanks….
@Rónán: when someone gets too high they say “nah man I can’t drive yet I gotta chill here a few” a drunk dude will fight you for his keys. You’re just delusional if you think there would be MORE ER visits. I’m not saying there’ll be less because the drunks won’t stop drinking but it’s not gonna be someone stoned taking up that bed
@Thomas Maher: you got a perfect point
wickr.. buyspacemonkey or whatsApp +1 (470) 231-8854
to get some quality caned weed for your self
@The Risen: you got a perfect point we are out here on the back ground waiting to open dispensaries
wickr.. buyspacemonkey or
whatsApp +1 (470) 231-8854
to get some quality caned weed for your self
First decent Green Party policy in over a decade!
@David Grey: Seems their whole agenda has worked – find something, anything, to get them noticed again.
@Sandra O’Fucáif: “The reefer butt is called a roach because it resembles a cockroach”
@David Grey: wouldn’t go that far
Repeal the 8th of an ounce.
@Ciarán Ó Fallúin: Brilliant!
@Ciarán Ó Fallúin: Comment of the year so far!
Well, someone’s bitter.
@: You have no idea
All I know is I got my hands on some medicinal cannabis for my arthritic knees …. just trying out of sheer desperation and phobic about knee replacement. Couldn’t beleive the difference after a few days , no waking at night feeling like a volcanoe in my knee , able to enjoy walking around town again, it was nothing short of miraculous…. . What is criminal is the governments blocking access to this amazing medecine.
@marie
If you don’t mind me asking was it oil or cannabis herb. Did you smoke it or vape or what was the process for taking it?
Asking for a friend.
@john doe: asking for myself … arthritis in the knees taking away the quality of life !
@john doe: small bit of research will inform u on most effective ways to ingest. Needless to say, mixing with tobacco is the worst u can do. Vaping seems safe, edibles safe. Many ways an products out there.
@Marie Thomas: i hope they will also give us the chance to sell discreetly
wickr.. buyspacemoney OR
whatsApp +1 (470) 231-8854
to get some fire>>>
Whatever about the cafes, it would be common sense to have access to cannabis-based medicine.
it’s about time tax it and regulate it correctly the crime levels will drop and the country benifit from the taxes it’s a win win
@Mick Mccabe: Unless you’re an idiot.
@Mick Mccabe: all for decriminalisation …. but do you honestly think criminals will just forgo that source of income and not turn to something else?
@Pablo: Well, they can open their own shops and start a legal business.
@Pablo: look at the American states where they have it legalised the crime levels have dropped and that has been proven but there will always be crime no matter what unfortunately but we have to move forward and stop living in the past if it’s done correctly it can benefit the country in more ways than 1 tourism taxes ect
“How do you do, fellow kids? ” – The Green Party.
@Neal Ireland Hello.: This is The Green Party’s main policy for government should they get into power after next election.
@Jamie Jj Tobin: if it is then I will vote green and smoke green
@Jamie Jj Tobin: As much as I am completely on-board with this – I still wont vote for the f*****s
@Gavin Conran: and that is exactly why it won’t happen.
@Gavin Conran: how about caring about the environment or climate change? You probably don’t care about either do you because if you did the greens are the only party taking these issues seriously
@Jamie Jj Tobin: I’d trust a heroin dealer before I’d trust a Green Party politician
Best of luck to them trying to get that in. I’ve never tried, dont think I will, but the medical benefits cannot be ignored. It could help a lot of people.
Should be lagalised fully.
It’s a no brainer . The sooner the better .
Finally a party that lives up to they’re name
@Darren Coyle: Class
@Darren Coyle: beat me to it ;)
Great idea, beats the current “Sweep it under the carpet, if you can’t see it then it’s not an issue” approach of the main political parties..
Certainly would also bring more tourists to the country who want to legally enjoy cannabis too.
Remove the profits from drug dealers and send the taxes to the state..
Nice idea but knowing the Green Party they would somehow want massive taxes as part of it. They love the high taxes.
@Slim Jim: attack the only party trying to prevent climate change by focusing on possible tax increases as at least 150,000 people die annually from droughts caused by climate change. You and those who liked your comment are why this planet is doomed
@Marcus Briody: they took part in destroying this country and rotated their TD’s so they all got ministerial pensions. They are a bunch of cowboys.
The green party are a bunch of sellouts who wrecked the country in 2009 in the crash but The majority of Irish would be ok with this, its the drink industry blocking it cause it would empty bars and ER’s of their customers.and cost them profits when people dont need to binge drink to relax, be it a magic cake or an edible.
Also cannabis for medical use has massive benefits that big pharma would prefer not allowed in Ireland. Be it for recreation or medical use, Ireland could benefit from cannabis if it was legal and properly regulated and produce to a high standard that drinks and pills sold in Ireland are. It would also reduce crime and lost of taxes to the black market drugs trade another group who do not want cannabis legalised.
@Matthew O’Kane: so how would you have solved a 24billion budget deficit combined with a banking system tens of billions in debt and double digit interest rates on Irish bonds? The greens didn’t cause the problem they had to deal with it and I have not heard anyone else tell me how it could have been handled any better. You would have done the same because there was no other option available.
What they did do in government was bring in legislation to start dealing with climate change, you know the greatest problem facing humanity today that people like you clearly don’t take seriously because if you did you wouldn’t be attacking the only party trying to do anything about it while also pushing a liberal agenda
Welcome policy initiative from the Green Party.
I will now consider voting for them again, something I haven’t done since they went in with Ff.
This is not a radical policy and only follows what is already happening in many European countries and American states.
The coffee shop part, while I have no objection to it, might be better as stage 2 of the policy with stage 1 being cannabis clubs for permit holders and growing for personal use as is already in place in Spain, Portugal etc.
Good to see a debate on this important personal freedom beginning.
Well done Greens
Imagine……………
Got my vote
No drug was ever improved by handing control to criminals. Recreation is fine . Addiction is a health problem.
High times this happens. Current approach is a bit disjointed
It Is beyond absurd to give anyone a charge for smoking cannabis .
They won’t open these come up with a million different reasons not to. Yet open a center that gives a free kit to shoot up heroin.
It should’ve been done years ago. If people want to use it then let them use it in peace.
Eamon “AFROMAN” Ryan is taking sense, legalize it already, silly Old Testament gobble dee fook law, medicinal properties of MCD oil etc are apparent to all who need it. Cannabis itself could be a very good industry for the exchequer and hemps properties and uses are to many to mention. A no brainer (no pun intended)
Legalise it fully, we dont even need to trial it as other countries and states have done that for us. Has any of them said it was the wrong decision? No. The tax this country would make on it would be a lifesaver at a time when our health system is severely under funded. Yes it would take a huge chunk of profits away from the criminal gangs but they will regroup and find other ways of making money, so all we can do there is hope that our guards and judges are on point during the criminals transition period. I feel we need to move fast as if the uk gets there before us then this could cripple our tourism industry but on the other hand if we manage to get this through first then we will see a large increase in tourists from the uk. Yes there is negative effects, 1 being people abusing, over using. An idea would be to start focusing on educating people on the risks of this now rather than after it passes. If im wrong please share your thoughts, maybe there is something im missing.
@Adam McLoughlin: https://mils420dispensary.com/
Story bud do ya need any bud ?
Anyone interested in Irish cannabis/hemp history will enjoy the Dublin Hemp Museum podcast.
People with medical needs cant get it, yet these headbangers come out with this pie in the sky…
@MickNev: if you bothered to read the document, you’d see that legislating for medical use is also part of their proposal.
A joint Oireachtas report about joints
@Dave Thomas: Good man David.
Ireland own Cheech & Chong party, both sitting in dail eireann trying to look drunk like all they rest. I wish this party would except some responsibility for their strategy policy’s while in government. Carbon taxes that make pensioners choose between food or warmth during winter months. Handing out 1000 euros in grants to people which inflated the peddle industry which has lead to more cyclists dying on our roads. Keeping Bertie and FF only stoner in power while lying about Ireland needing a bailout. PD’s, Greens and labour were only in it for the champagne lifestyles while corruption flourishes around them.
@leartius: the effect of the carbon tax has been highly exaggerated what they did was to finally start taking action on climate change, which is killing 150,000 people annually in the third world because of droughts and has changed our winds so we have had northerly winds for months. The greens are the only party thinking long term you are clearly living in the past and attacking the only people trying to prevent the destruction of the planet
Any Garda on here? I’d like to hear their opinion on this.
@Gerry Ross: There are approximately 7 million Garda Journal users
@Gerry Ross: Retired ,and i dont agree with it,
@Gerry Ross:
Who cares for there opinion, the people elect the politicians and the politicians will legislate based on what they campaigned for and the Garda will do as there told through that legislation, that’s how it works, the Garda have lots to say about the effects of alcohol every weekend but no one is listening, alcohol has a much bigger impact in society in a negative way.
@Elvis King:
Get back to work Elvis
Why ?
@Elvis King: Sorry i read you comment wrong , i am not a retired garda, gard , i am the other kind of gard
@Stephen Kennedy: Because he likes to be on the wrong side of arguments.
Probably the only way they would get any vote after the mess they made when last in power.
Don’t they bring this up every few years and nothing ever happens?
Whatever about criminalising ordinary joes…legalizing it won’t get rid of gangs
@BigSFLou..ny: It certainly won’t, but it will enable adults to blaze a wholesome bowl of green legally. To sum up: Legalise, regulate, tax, enjoy.
@Honeybadger197: ye no probs…but some people think the criminals will all of a sudden be out of a job and will become honest 9-5 workers…pfft
@big sf
They won’t disappear but a huge part of their funding stream would be cut off by legalisation
@BigSFLou..ny: I don’t care about the job prospects of some dealer. I would prefer to see adults enjoy an occasional bowl and see the taxes generated benefitting the country. :)
@Honeybadger197: legalize defo not decriminalize. Although I don’t think we are ready socially. The model in the Netherlands still has major crime element involved.
@Mondo: I saw someone shared an article about that above. Must have a read of it.
@john doe: yep and they will need to fill that vaccum….
@Honeybadger197: I am all for legalisation but be aware that dealers will switch to selling harder drugs. ALL drugs need to be legalised.
@Honeybadger197: it’s a complex process. The Portuguese legalized drugs in 2002 an we are only starting to fully look into this now. It’s defo the model I would look to. Also the selling of alcohol an cannabis together is prohibited, they don’t mix well. Would u post that article if ye get a chance??
@honeybadger
In my opinion, the reason that Netherlands are having the trouble they are, is that they have a sensible approach for personal use but have left they supply side a crime and therefore controlled by criminals.
Full regulation including the supply side is what is required. Let’s learn from their mistakes as well as their successes (afaik they have lower rates of teen cannabis use than we do)
@Honeybadger197: thanks. Agree 100% with John Doe. Interesting article but leaves out the massive discrepancy that they allow criminals to be involved in the cannabis business. That’s why I’d be for legalizing rather than decriminalize. Completely bypass the criminal element.
@Mondo: they mix really fu(kin well..
@Honeybadger197: cheers for that
Only in Ireland. Parents bringing ill kids to coffee shops for treatment.
Brings a whole new meaning to ‘hash tags’, and ‘happy hour’.
We should probably tackle the Class A problem first. Those cafes will attract drug addicts hanging around otherwise.
@alan
There are already drug addicts hanging around.
In states in usa where cannabis has been legalised opoid related deaths have been decreasing. An unexpected positive outcome of legal cannabis.
The first cafe is to be named “Puff the Magic Dragon”.
The LVA will have none of it
Never Happen
@Ez Hudson: look around at what’s going on elsewhere. Only a matter of time..
Drugs like Drink are one of the oldest things used by man kind. They are wonder products that do so many things from health to house hold to automotive to fashion the list is endless.
I’m sure the green party will add carbon tax like they have in the past to cripple people
@dick dastardly: Emissions from cannabis joints are free for you to enjoy tax free!
Why is the comment section on every article on Jackson/Olding closed?
The benefit of alcohol, cannabis, religion and immersed in viewing televised sport is that these all cumulativley help to keep us pacified and passively content. Add reality TV, talent shows and television dross keeps us diverted.
Bread and circuses keep us going. We don’t need change as long as we are indulged.
Add the lottery and gambling for the full effect of a compliant people.
@Michael Lang:
You write as if your already stone Michael
@courageous: funny that you should mention that.
I had a short lucid interval but now I have an attack of the munchies.
We all know the reason this common sense approach has not happened, and probably won’t, is because of all the golden handshakes passed around by the pharma companies in this country. If the govt won’t legalise full stop, then they need to allow the people of this country to decide for themselves….like they are doing with the 8th Amendment. Have a referendum.
That is the best idea the greens gave ever had. Time to legalise.
Bertie Ahern in breaking news has described the Green Party statement as all smokes and daggers.
@Michael Lang: Yer a hoot Mick!
One step at time, we are very close to some form of legalization in Ireland, let’s hope it’s sooner rather than later and Ireland as a nation is remembered for been a driving force in the emerging green industry.
Lets not forget it’s only a plant and should of never been made illegal in the first place, it’s everyone’s fundamental right to grow and consume what ever plant that wish and that’s simply how it should be!
When nature is made illegal and is been kept illegal you need to start questioning life itself and the country of which you live. Sometimes civil disobedience is the only way forward..
Hempture
Free De Weed
Dew it.
@Jasper Warner: execute order spliffty spliff
Wow Common sense from the green party who usually come out with some amount of garbage, the economy would boom if this were ever to happen but you just know it isn’t
Why discriminate against under 18s for access to alcohol and cannabis?
One would think the widespread burning of plant matter is something the Green Party would be against.
Legalise, regulate, tax!! :)
They’re not called the green party for nothing
If you get this across the line I will vote for you but l would much prefer if you tried to get it legalised for people who are suffering from chronic pain.
It’s about time we adopted a grown up attitude to drugs in the country and in particular to Cannabis. The war on drugs has failed and made millionaires out of gangsters in the process. To keep going the way we are is madness. Legalise it and let adults make their own rational chioces about what they want to do and in the meantime collect the tax revenue. Criminals will not go away but it will hurt their bottom line. If it’s cheap enough in a coffee shop why would anyone buy off the street? We have better things for our police and courts to do than arrest and charge people with possession of small amounts for personal use.
De criminalizing cannabis use in a country that can’t handle it’s drink, sounds like a wonderful idea
@League of shadows: I agree that we have a drink problem, but there adverse affects of alcohol are far worse than cannabis
@League of shadows: Not even remotely comparable.
Looks like they’re allready here
It would be the “Green” party ,wouldn’t it
Where you can smoke indoors but only if it’s a joint. No thanks
@ed w: plenty of pubs
Methinks the greens are all stoned man when you hear the dude come out with this really weird stuff.
Its not weird michael. Its fact based policy that has been tried and worked in a number of other juristictions.
Surely We should be letting facts not emotion inform government policy.
It is far far less harmful than alcohol for which we accept regulation as the best model to deal with.
I would invite my partner to go to one of these brown cafes but she insists that we go dutch.
@Michael Lang: good one… would they by any chance have the hash cakes that ya get in the Dutch cafes instead of the joints as I do not not want to go back smoking again and might be tempted . Oh I do want a few to invite some friends around for tea !
@Michael Lang: u do realize that u can’t smoke in brown cafes??
@Mondo: not in the ones I have been in and nice range of nicely priced product. I never inhale, ahem.
The headbangers party!
Did anybody mention that smoking is illegal indoors in cafes, pubs and other public places… not just smoking but vaping is prohibited as well in some cases although not know the lega basis for this – but these cafes would have to be outdoors like the smoking areas in pubs and bars or else we will all be heading there for an indoor ciggie…
I think that the current law and legislation is more of a hindrance then a help and certainly it is ridiculous that we have loads of class A and B drugs prescribed but cannot get class C drug on prescription.
Medicinal would be good. Also decriminalisation of low quantities on a person for personal use would be good too. Making it legal and taxing it would be great for the economy and we all know (Forbes) The marijuana market is estimated to be worth over 20billion by 2020. It’s complicated though and could go wrong quickly. Quality and regulations would be first, then tax, then health and safety for these coffee shops to ensure no second hand smoke or underage are affected. If you want the health benefits of marijuana without getting high, research CBD products. They are great against inflammation like arthritis and acne. They are also great for anxiety, stress, sleeping and moods. CBD products are legal in Ireland as they cannot get you high without THC which these products don’t have. Fun Topic.
I see only benefits if this will happen. More tourists will visit Ireland, also this will be huge bang for economy, less alcohol consumption ( be honest? Alcohol is legal poison, family destroyer and so on ).
People will have legal and easy access to medical marijuana to fight cancer and other illnesses problems. Black market is full of toxic sprayed marijuana to make it more heavier to gain more benefits for people who don’t care about others. Will be more love peace and people will really appreciate this!!!
As long as no tobacco is sold or consumed that is fine.
Will there be a zero tolerance for dopes driving?
Remember Head shops, and what the drug dealers did to them? Expect arson attacks on any cannabis cafe thats opened.
What Green Party ? They are has-been’s. At least they should use common sense and legalise medical cannibis to more than 7 people.
If we are stopped by members of the Force, will they ask us to breath into their mouths.
@Michael Lang: yes, that’s exactly it.
Former Green Party member John Gormley wants a system of tax bands on the weed emissions, if you have really expensive high end weed it’s €5 for 1kg. If however you choose a lesser variety of weed, older but perhaps still a reliable product, the Greens will advocate a tax of €59865 per Kg. The Greens, the gift that keeps on giving.
It’s a difficult one. Making it legal and taxing it would be a plus, but alot could go wrong quickly. Decriminalisation of small quantity should be done alright and access to medicinal forms also. At least CBD products are legal in Ireland to get the benefits of marijuana like help with pains, inflammation, anxiety, stress and mood. If you have arthritis look into CBD products. It will help you without getting you high as they are free from THC which is what gets you high in general marijuana.
It should have been legalised years ago all of the jobs it would have created. The money that it would have made from tax like in California where wine was where they raised the most tax money but now it’s the cannabis that California gets more tax money from also our jails would not have as many people in them so the jail system will be less crowded. Also it is less harmful than alcohol or tobacco no liver disease or cancer from cannabis. It would take a lot of money all of the hand of the gangs and people would not be going to jail for smoking a plant why can’t somebody grow a few plants in their own homes for themselves not harming anybody not even harming themselves but having a bigger ESB bill more money for the government.
Is this a puff piece from the Green Party?
I hope that they are not just blowing smoke or acting the dope.
The nominated spokesperson on this topic is to be Mary Jane Ryan.
It is wrong to say that only skanks take skunk or vice versa.
As the Green Party TD might say. My seat for a spliff.
@Michael Lang: i hope they will also give us the chance to sell discreetly
wickr.. buyspacemoney OR
whatsApp +1 (470) 231-8854
to get some fire>>>
It should be given to the RA, to help them loosen their tongues and tell us where the disappeared are buried,once and for all.
As a Dutch person I am continuously amazed by the ignorance of people like the Greens when they keep referring to the Dutch approach to soft drugs: https://merryjane.com/news/dutch-cannabis-activist-suicide-attempt-netherlands-restrictive-drug-policies
@Evert Bopp: I thought that you exclusively specialized in Referendums? Anti same sex marriage, pro 8th Amendment etc.
Wtf are these clowns thinking. OK, medicated cannabis is acceptable and is fine but the illegal one, seriously, its bad enough citys reek of the smell but if they legalise it, it will make drug dealing shoot through the roof. Brilliant idea guys.
@Dylan Conroy: WOW! If your the sperm that won the race imagine what the ones that lost were like! Please stop contributing to articles you clearly have no idea about. That actually made me laugh.
How do we go about it’s legalization? and how to stop it’s consumption by the under age ?
you got a perfect point we are out here on the back ground waiting to open dispensaries
wickr.. buyspacemonkey or
whatsApp +1 (470) 231-8854
to get some quality caned weed
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