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Updated 6.20pm
MINISTER FOR FINANCE Paschal Donohoe has said that the government strongly condemns the actions of the banking sector, calling the tracker mortgage scandal “disgraceful” and “simply unacceptable”.
Having met with the CEOs of the major banks this week, Donohoe said that he had received a timeline for when affected customers would be repaid and said that the government was considering new regulations to enhance accountability in the banking sector.
“The Irish people made extraordinary sacrifices to support the banks at the height of the financial crisis,” he said. “Having done so, it is right that we demand, on behalf of the people, that the banking sector now, more than ever, operates in the best interests of its customers.”
Both the government and the Central Bank have said that it is now up to the banks to provide the adequate redress for customers as quickly as possible, and restore faith in the sector.
The banks, meanwhile, have issued apologies and timelines for when customers would be repaid.
Ulster Bank
Ulster Bank CEO Gerry Mallon said the company “would like to apologise unreservedly” for the failures to customers.
Mallon said that the bank had “listened”, “is learning” and is “focused on completing this process [and] putting this right”.
The bank said that just under 3,500 customers had been identified as being affected by losing their tracker rates.
It said that 1,000 customers would receive payments by the end of 2017. This will increase to 2,500 customers in the first quarter of 2018, with the “remainder” paid by the end of June 2018.
“Where we identify a customer who has lost their home as a result of the loss of a tracker rate, we communicate with them, arrange a meeting and offer an upfront initial payment of €50,000,” Ulster Bank said.
AIB
AIB said that around 4,500 customers in all were affected – including 3,586 customers wrongly not on a tracker and 1,016 customers on a higher margin.
It said that 30 different customer groups had been affected by the errors.
Of the customers wrongly not on a tracker, it said that 12 had lost their homes as a result of this issue. These customers received redress and compensation by the end of March this year, the bank said.
It said that it had set aside €190 million to cover customers, and that the majority would receive compensation and redress by the end of this year, and by March 2018 at the latest.
It said: “AIB again sincerely apologises to customers and reiterates this should never have happened. AIB’s CEO Bernard Byrne confirmed to the Minister during their discussions of the commitment of management and board to bring the programme to a conclusion as quickly as possible in the interests of impacted customers.”
Bank of Ireland
Bank of Ireland said it had identified 4,300 cases in all where customers were either wrongly not on a tracker, or charged at the wrong rate.
It said it would start the compensation process for these customers from 10 November. It said it aims to compensate all customers by the end of the year.
BOI also said it would continue to examine if other customers had been affected, and it is understood that it is committing extra resources towards this.
Its CEO Francesa McDonagh said: “I unreservedly apologise to all impacted customers for the financial loss and anxiety this has caused them and their families.
All impacted customers must be identified as quickly as possible and treated fairly.
KBC
KBC said that around 490 customers were affected, but anticipated another 200 to 600 could be.
It expects to have paid back everyone by the end of the year.
“KBC fully acknowledges the past errors that occurred in relation to Tracker Mortgages should not have happened, were wrong and we sincerely apologise for this once again,” it said.
PTSB
Permanent TSB also issued an apology for the scandal.
“The bank accepts the failures that led to this issue should not have occurred,” it said.
It added that just under 2,000 cases had been identified, and had written to 1,608 of them to offer redress and compensation.
It has set a deadline of 31st December to issue offers to the remaining 363 customers.
It added: “The focus in Permanent TSB is on bringing this matter to a conclusion.”
Investigation
Minister Donohoe said that the Central Bank is of the view some bank behaviour on the tracker mortgage scandal had been “unacceptable, legalistic and not customer centred”.
He said: “There has been a varying response from the banks and as a result, banks that did actually respond in a more appropriate and customer centric manner will not receive any credit for doing so.”
The Central Bank will set deadlines for the banks to identify further affected customers and provide them with compensation.
Central Bank Governor Philip Lane said: “While we note the commitment of the banks to meet the requirements of the Central Bank and Government, given some lenders’ past behaviour, the Central Bank is under no illusion that this will require continued and concerted pressure to ensure all affected customers receive redress and compensation.
It is now incumbent on the heads of the banks to ensure that all affected customers are identified, and to ensure that redress and compensation are delivered swiftly to those to whom so much distress has been caused.
Donohoe will get a progress report in mid-December from the Central Bank on how the banks are faring in their investigations and compensation schemes.
If the Central Bank deems that not enough progress has been made, it could introduce stricter legislative scrutiny on banks’ reporting, amend tax law or use the government’s power as a shareholder in the banks to exercise greater power over the banks.
“Customer interests have not been sufficiently protected or prioritised. This is unacceptable,” he said.
Accordingly, I have mandated the Central Bank under section 6A of the Central Bank Act to prepare a report for me on the current cultures and behaviours and the associated risks in the retail banks today and the actions that may be taken to ensure that banks prioritise customer interests in the future.
On foot of this report, the Government will determine whether any additional legislative and regulatory changes are needed that would enhance accountability in the banks for ensuring customer interests are prioritised.
What’s new in what the Finance Minister Paschal Donohoe announced today?
Other than demanding a timeline for actions and redress, the minister said he wants two reports from the Central Bank (as mentioned above). He said he MAY then take action against banks.
The first report (which was already in the process of being carried out) is due in mid-December. This is a progress report on whether the banks have made acceptable and sufficient progress in line with the commitments announced today by the banks.
The second report is on the culture within Irish banks. Despite the minister stating that there is something a miss within the culture of the Irish banking system, Donohoe is commissioning a report, due to be published in Spring 2018.
“On foot of this report, the government will determine whether any addition legislative and regulatory changes are needed that would enhance accountability in the banks for ensuring customer interests are prioritised,” said the minister.
How much will customers get in redress?
Donohoe said it’s up to the Central Bank to determine what sort of redress is appropriate to the estimated 20,000 affected customers.
What can the government do if the banks fail to deliver on their promises today?
The minister said a number of “follow-up” actions are open to him. These include:
When referencing tax, the minister is referring to the bank levy, imposed on banks post after the taxpayer bailed out the banks during the recession. He said he will consider raising it if the banks do not sort out the mess of the tracker mortgage scandal.
The minister said he will also not review the pay or the bonuses of bankers until the banks make progress on the tracker mortgage issue.
He added that the Central Bank is also concerned that two banks had failed to fully identify customers impacted, but he would not name those banks.
He will consider what sanctions can be imposed on both individuals and individual banks should they fail to deliver on their commitments, adding he may decide to take different actions on different banks depending on how they perform.
What about the gardaí? Why aren’t they involved?
The Independent Alliance, who are in government with Fine Gael, called for a full criminal investigation to be carried out into the banks. They said the minister must now exercise its rights as shareholder in some banks and bring its power to bear on board appointments and behaviour.
“We believe that what has happened to the more than 20,000 customers of these Banks should be the subject of a criminal investigation. The allegations of fraud which have been made more than merit a top-level criminal investigation rather than just a Central Bank investigation.”
“We must not forget that many people lost their homes due to an inability to repay their mortgage after being taken off tracker rates while others have suffered severe ill-health through the cruel tactics employed by some banks.”
“The time for talking is over. The Banks were given plenty of notice that this was a problem they had to solve. Now it is obvious that a criminal investigation is needed to get to the bottom of the scandal.”
The minister would not go so far as his government colleagues today, stating that the gardaí have been engaging with the Central Bank on the issue.
Whether the gardaí get involved is a matter that will “be determined by the report by the Central Bank”.
Is anyone going to lose their job over the scandal?
There is no indication that anyone will be out of a job over the scandal, just yet, anyway. The CEOs of the banks gave a commitment to the minister to deliver on redress and compensation. Donohoe said he will be “holding them to account” on that.
But he added, that for many, the “tenure in their jobs took place after many of these decisions happened which generated the issue I am now addressing today”.
Be that as it may, I have said to all of them, will be holding the banks accountable to how they respond to this issue.
He said the Central Bank has “sanctions open to them” and it is a matter for them to determine when and if they should be used. It would appear that any of these consequences for individuals and individual banks will have to wait until after the publication of the two reports.
How much will this cost the banks and what is the final figure of those impacted?
Donohoe said he did not know what the final cost would be, but said that he believes the Central Bank Governor Philip Lane when he states that some 20,000 people could be impacted. Others have predicted the numbers could be a lot higher.
What about those customers that already accepted compensation from their banks, many of whom who only received nominal fees and not the full amount taken from them?
The minister said there are believed to be some 7,000 customers that do not fall within the probe being carried out by the Central Bank. One TD in the Dáil yesterday said some of these customers have had sums of money up to €40,000 taken from them, but were only given €4,000 in redress.
Donohoe said those customers who believe they were treated unfairly by their bank should get in touch with the Central Bank. He said it can determine if or how much more money they are entitled to.
“They [the Central Bank] can adjudicate over individual decisions,” he concluded.
Beginning the debate on Fianna Fáil’s motion on the tracker mortgage scandal, Michael McGrath said the bankers “will sleep well tonight” after the reaction by the government today.
With additional reporting by Christina Finn
If you have been affected by the tracker mortgage scandal, we want to hear your story. Get in touch by sending a message to trackermortgage@thejournal.ie.
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Teach Irish in secondary schools the same way other languages like German are taught or watch it slide further and further into irrelevance.
13 years of Irish in school, got an honours in the leaving – Can barely string a conversation together
I know much more German than I do Irish, but no the education system here would rather you learn really poor and complicated essays and short stories as opposed to actually understanding anything.
Teaching of irish should be optional. Teaching either german, french or mandarin should be mandatory. Teaching of a foreign language should begin at prtmary level.
Compulsory irish is total waste of resources.
I agree Donal, they way irish is thought is absolutely ridiculous, most just leave school with the very basics. There’s to much pressure to learn pointless poems etc for the leaving cert rather than actual speaking it
Teach it to people who choose it instead of holding onto this notion of every one should have to endure and waste so many hours learning a language that is basically dead. I studied French for the leaving and with it I was able to move to France for a summer, work in a pub and immerse myself in a different culture. What could I do with my irish? Nothing! Having a foreign language opens up great opportunities all over the eu and beyond but instead we waste so many hours and resources cramming pre learned essays down disillusioned student’s throats. It is so backwards.
So your saying our unique language is a waste of time? You’d be surprised the amount of foreigners and Americans who are intrigued and love the language, it should be embraced. The Welsh are proud of theirs
That was for buster
Maybe they should introduce a new optional leaving/junior cert subject called Irish Culture and Heritage. You could learn about the poems and stories and traditions and the history of Ireland and Irish folklore.
Then they could concentrate Irish class on teaching people to speak the Irish language.
Buster VL you are right!
People seem to only look at the commercial benefit of a language. The passing on of Irish is the maintenance of a cultural heritage – we are the keepers of the language, which is as culturally important as any piece of ancient architecture. Imagine if someone said there’s no (monitary or other) point to Newgrange and decided to level it! That said we really do need to look at the process of passing on this ancient language!
Great idea Jack.
Of course Kenny is oblivious to the Gaeltacht crisis – he lives in his own magical fantasyland where Ireland has now returned to prosperity, his party NEVER raised taxes in ANY way, where men holding two pints frequently engage him in conversation about Irish Water only to be eloquently put in their place by His Excellency, and mystery callers ring his office to profess their amazement and delight at all the extra cash sitting in their wallets thanks to his and Noonans budgetary genius.
Don’t bother asking him about hospital trollies, evictions, homeless families or child poverty – these things don’t exist in Endaland.
It should definitely be optional after Junior Cert. There are enough people enthusiastic about it to keep schools going but stop forcing it on students who feel they don’t need it or need the time and effort for the core subjects that are important to them.
You have highlighted the problem very well. The problem is the lack of future opportunity to speak Irish in a natural everyday setting. Anyone who learns a foreign language looks to use that language with a native speaker. We all have the latent capacity to speak and use Irish but we do not have a way of knowing that the other person will respond in Irish. The Irish language is learnt by a minority for cultural reasons only. The majority regard it as a chore. Language is spoken out of need to speak it, not so much out of an outside imposed obligation to learn it. The imposition of the Caighdán style Gramadach Oifigiúil was destructive in that it turned Gaeltacht native speakers into second class Irish speakers. I never forgot the discomfort of native Irish speakers in teacher training college in the 1970s being told that their written Irish was not ceart de réir an Chaighdán. Each canúint had its own intrinsic way of writing Irish and this was being present by authority as being not good enough. Standardisation while well meant actually marginalised the Irish language even further in the Gaeltacht areas.
A nation that doesn’t speak its language lost its soul. The Dutch, Norwegian etc. speak their language plus English, German or French.
Yes it is a waste of time for those forced to speak it that don’t want to. So what if Americans like it, what has that got to do with anything?
Well Paul we like to market ourselves as a country of ancient traditions with a history of resistance, if we ditch the ancient Irish language for the sake of convenience it’s going to be quite difficult to market ourselves in quite the same manner, we’ll have lost an ancient linguistic tradition and showed no resistance to the erosion of a large part of cultural heritage.
People like to go and experience a different culture when they travel abroad, we’re becoming more and more Anglo-American and less Celtic it’s going to be difficult to entice American and British tourists here if they feel Ireland offers nothing different from their own countries, and they aren’t going to come here for the weather now are they. Likewise people from other countries aren’t going to be interested in travelling to a mini England/USA.
Donal , spot on , that is the main problem with this language in schools , people have been saying it for years but nobody is bothered to listen .
I’ve lived in Wales/Cymru on Anglesea/Ynys Mon. The older folks speak Welsh most of the time but the younger ones just do not use it. They use the language and phraseology of English to communicate. But unlike in Ireland, it is not compulsory in other schools in Britain. So it sits and burbles away in the backwaters like a little stream which is grand. Lovely language. It is wrong to use Welsh as an example to promote Irish Supernova. It too is gradually expiring.
So force it down every child in the nations throat to please tourists!!! We should start breeding leprechauns as well. Nobody is stopping people who want to learn it. If its as popular as some make it out to be it will thrive of its own accord
We are not the Welsh
Paul I never said force it down children’s throats, I was mainly referring to your point “So what if Americans like it, what has that got to do with anything” the perception other countries have of us is very important to our tourist industry and the brand of this country in general, so yes Americans and foreigners in general liking our language and culture is quite important and if we totally disregard that language and culture it will reflect very badly on us as a country. Hence I think its preservation is important but with different methods.
There should be more a focus on enabling the Gaeltacht communities to speak Irish as a focus for the language, but how can they when the government has only provided services to them in English and has done so for decades and also English speakers moving into the area are putting more and more pressure on them to assimilate. I also think the Government should cut spending on the Irish education system in school and more on subsidising Irish classes for adults who actually want them.
Also that cheap leprechaun remark is just typical of the condescending attitude a lot of Irish people have for their own culture.
I am shocked at some people’s comments on this thread.
The Irish language is OUR culture, PRIDE and our HISTORY.
just because you can’t get a job in southern France with it or a tech job in Germany when you leave school does not mean we should not be concerned its dwindling.
My daughter attends a Gaelscoil and I’m telling you now her ability with other languages is amazing. She’s taught Irish based sports and musical instruments and understands the language is a part of us as Irish people. But I do agree it should be optional in secondary school.
Shame on all you people who call yourselves Irish who’ve just slammed your national language.
Sam, I am as Irish as you, and I disagree. Are you saying I must be forced to accept a language I don’t want in the interests of YOUR concept of “Irishness “. I want someone to come out and admit it – we are seriously entertaining ‘degrees ‘ of Irishness.
That bollocks was directed to Supernova, not my august self – thanks Journal
Rashers, I didn’t say anything about forcing it on people. My beef is mainly with the attitudes of some people towards it.
We have a national language I just don’t see why it should be left to rot because people don’t see any use for it after school.
You hit the nail on the head. Making Irish compulsory in school and giving it a special emphasis in society HAS NOT WORKED. Neither has the way it is taught. And the elitism of Irish speakers claiming they are more Irish then those who don’t speak Irish is nonsense and has added to the demise of the language. A new appoach is needed – I would like to see people take an interest in their language, history and culture _ but you won’t achieve it by ramming it down peoples’ throats or by perpetuating the myth that we speak two languages.
My only issue is it being compulsory. Fair play and good luck to those who speak it and they should have option to learn it in school but to force it on people is terrible. If its lived and people want it then it will survive and thrive surely? I think a lot of people come out with things like people live it etc but deep down they know it’s not that many
Loved not lived
let’s be honest here , how many of you would not allow your kids to learn the language if it wasn’t compulsory ? most of you would opt out because of your feelings and your views of the language and that’s where it would be lost forever . children still need to be taught it and then later on in secondary school maybe give them the option to opt out then.
You should get a medal Sam, you’re a true Irish person, well done.
You can be concerned all you like, the fact is the majority of the people simply aren’t interested in it, and there’s nothing you can do about it.
Nigel , adults may not be interested in it but what about children ? should they have a chance to learn it and see if they like it ?
Well don’t you think an optional after school Irish class would benefit them more?
no because again the Parents wouldn’t bother to bring them and then the kids lose out . it should be a child’s decision not the Parents . some kids take to Irish and love learning it .
Nigel I don’t need nor want a medal I was stating my opinion but cheers for thinking I’m owed one for being Irish.
@Suzie,. Apologies, but that makes no sense at all. The parents might choose not to bring them and the child should ignore that and make their own choice. Do you advocate a choice for children as to whether to do math, or learn geography or history? It should be their decision, after all.
@ supernova – it is a waste of time for those with no interest in it. For everyone else I’m sure it’s great. But forcing it on people is counter- productive : and the state of the language proves it. The reason Irish music and dance flourish is….because it’s elective. ….but as for making it compulsory to access 3rd Level education : nothing short of discrimination that is. ..
@Sam. What condescending rubbish – and clearly indicative of exactly why Irish is loathed as much as loved. This attitude that your appreciation of it somehow makes you better than me is reason alone for Irish to be consigned to the bin. The fact that the concept of Irish as – taught is a complete fabrication from the heads of few enthusiastic founding members of this State escapes you. English was the language then, as now. Heck the GAA is barely a century old – English has been on this Island for 800+ years.
John, i wasn’t being condescending.
You have your opinion on it and I have mine.
I shall continue to hope the Irish language does not diminish (in a non condescending way of course).
@Sam. I hope it flourishes too. But forced rote -learning something that can’t be used daily is dooming it to ultimate failure. Encouraging it electively would be infinitely more successful. For now my German, French and maybe some old Latin is I find something to cherish.
If I had a kid in secondary he or she would have a mind of their own and pick whatever subjects they wanted. I would tell them my view that German/French/Spanish would be of much more use to them but they would pick whatever they wanted. In primary an hour or 2 a week is done kids might like it if thought in a fun way. When I was in primary half the morning every day was taken up with it. Barbaric
I would suggest you take your daughter out of gaelscoil and put her into a multi-denominational school. The reason why is communication…. she will be a better communicator, understand the world better and not be part of a myopic pretentious Irish clique.
Sean that makes no sense to me at all.
I do not want my daughter in a class room, where sad to say, the Irish kids would be the minority.
There’s kids down my way who have no English going into primary school so the Irish kids are suffering because basic English has to be taught to some kids before Irish is even introduced!
Because the kids have no irish(most kids) when they begin gaelscoil, their ability with other languages flourishes. My daughter has a great concept of Spanish, French and German.
I really do not see any down side to gaelscoils unless a child really can’t hack it.
My worst nightmare would be for my daughter to end up in a school like educate together, sorry but that’s just my view.
Well everyone does indeed have a different experience in life and your daughter and you seem to have a positive experience with the Irish language.
For myself it has been mostly negative. My reasoning is this, as an Irishman who has lived 33 of his 38 years in Ireland I have never once used the Irish language in a meaningful conversation.
The way Irish was shoved down my throat and my unsuccessfulness at mastering the language resulted in a mental block from learning other languages.
In the previous year I have spent significant amounts of time learning dutch, danish and spanish and really enjoy learning them and using them in practical way.
Enda doesn’t see a crisis anywhere except for Greece.
How or why would he. He switched allegiance to Germany
So despite considerable continued financial and legislative support, along with the mandatory teaching of irish in schools, the language continues to fade. Perhaps it’s time to face reality and take this dead language off life support?
A thousand thumbs up!
Or time to realise that changing something that doesn’t work is more useful than pumping money into a broken system?
Nothing is going to work in my opinion. This issue will simply continue limping on, sucking in our money and the time and joy of the nations children in the name of heritage and culture. God forbid we take a bold decision and just move on.
It really annoys me when individuals take an issue that is clearly more complicated than ‘it’s broken, f***k it in the bin’ and assume that their opinion is automatically the correct one. Like, if you don’t want it, it’s automatically useless and a waste of money. I’m currently healthy- should I therefore object to money being spent on healthcare? I don’t drive- why do we need so many roads?
What is it going to take in this country for people to stop effing whinging and complaining and start trying to solve problems?
‘Bold’, ill-considered decisions aren’t worth the time it takes to make them- we’ve seen it time and time again at every level in Ireland, including in this area. Chuck it in the bin! Let’s start again! This way is easier- I won’t have to do anything!
Yeah that’s just a rant really isn’t it. As a realistic alternative to English as a first language Irish is dead, dying, pushing up the daisies, and any other month pythonesque description one wishes to apply. There’s a difference between looking for new solutions and facing up to the fact that a cause is lost. The real question is how much do we wish to invest in this sentimentality. For me I think it should be optional in school at best. Perhaps a referendum will be needed before this is settled.
I suspect you would be greatly disappointed by the results of a referendum. Trying to stamp out sentiment in Ireland… have you just moved here? Have you one Irish friend?
No-one is even suggesting that Irish replace English as a first language, just that we continue to support it’s use and facilitate people to learn it as best we can (whatever that way might be). Maybe it’s hard for you to imagine a country where people can speak more than one language, but your problems are you own. Thankfully.
I agree, though, that there is a difference between searching for solutions and knowing when a cause is lost. Maybe it’s all that sentiment talking, but I think our definitions of ‘lost cause’ vary wildly. How can any cause be lost when it generates this much commentary on a dry, summer’s, Saturday afternoon?
In English.
Well it would be fairly rude to reply to someone in another language, wouldn’t it? I make an assumption when I communicate that I want that other person to understand what I’m saying, so I will do that in language they use whenever I can.
C dav is right it’s just a rant. Makes no real sense at all
Aithníonn ciaróg ciaróg eile.
Huh?
The Irish language should be thrown to the trash heap of history.
My reasoning is this, as an Irishman who has lived 33 of his 38 years in Ireland I have never once used the Irish language in a meaningful conversation.
The way Irish was shoved down my throat and my unsuccessfulness at mastering the language resulted in a mental block from learning other languages. In the previous year I have spent significant amounts of time learning dutch, danish and spanish and really enjoy learning them.
The only ones backing the Irish language are a bunch of hard core extremists who also belong to the ash heap of history.
Enda wouldn’t know a crisis if it jumped up and bit him on the arse. As long as Angela and the eurocrates are ok fcuk the Irish people.
Blueshirts tend be very pro European and are not very Irish! Their embarrassed by the 1916 rising sure, they tried to change the proclamation, so why should they care about our language?
Agree, and it is good that we look to Europe.
They didn’t try and change the proclamation but don’t let the truth get in the way! You can’t change a historic document. What they asked was for a school project to come up with a modern version.
We dont need a modern version reg.. We still haven’t fulfilled the promise of the first one. For God sake we still have partition on the island
It’s a school project. It gets kids thinking about the original one and and interpreting it for an Ireland that is 100 years older. No harm in that at all.
Supernova shinnertroll, you should read the Proclamation, especially the reference to the “gallant allies in Europe”.
It was a case of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” in 1916 Diarmuid. The authors of the proclamation were about to put their lives on the line to gain Irish sovereignty which Kenny then gave up without a whimper.
Not like Imperial Russia, the British Empire or the French Third Republic (with it’s vast imperial realm in Africa and SE Asia) were that much different from Imperial Germany or Austria-Hungary. You swear the Allies were some force for good fighting against unadulterated evil, than again people often try to telegragh the second World War back to the first.
Tbh independence was probably the worse thing to happen to Irish language. If were in the UK still I imagine the Gaeltacht would probably be in better condition.
There should be much more focus on spoken Irish in the curriculum, instead of poems and writing postcards about your holidays.
I completely agree- seems so simple and yet, it’s not done. If we can’t be confident trying out the cupla focal at the age of thirteen, how can we expect anyone to do it at forty three?
Irish class could be something kids would look forward to, if it was essentially an hour of just having the craic in Irish.
How’s that minister’s Irish lessons working out? He doesn’t need the cupla focal to sign off cheques fortunately.
I think it’s time we all stopped blaming ‘the system’ and just pick up the can ourselves and learn the language if we want to. We have to, all of us, accept that if we want to keep it alive and relevant then we have to use it.
I’m not fluent by a serious stretch, but years in school have given me a vocabulary, at least, though I have no confidence in it and I don’t have the grammar bits. A couple of months ago I started switching over to RnaG when I’m driving- I was amazed by the difference that has made to my comprehension. So that works for me (though I switch off for the music bits) for now and I feel like I’m doing something to better my knowledge and my comprehension.
Anyway: it’s ours, if we want it, so use it or lose it.
Well said ispycoffee.
Try Duolingo as well it’s free, won’t make you fluent but it gives a good grounding in the basic grammar of the language something I didn’t get at school.
Very well said ISC, im sending my Son to a Gael Scoil next year so wanted to introduce him to the language, I’ve used Cuala Caint a fee app and cartoons off tg4, Im enjoying getting back into it. Its our language and we have to drive it. There’s a good free lesson resource on Indo site by Liam O’M well worth a look at..
You want to get onto apps? Can we speak plainly here – the reason French, German, Spanish, Italian and hundreds of other languages still exist is that they are spoken in the home, in the street, in life generally as the mother tongue. The situation here is not the same. For reasons related to the former conquest, and for the convenience of communication with the outside world, our ‘mother tongue ‘ is English. To suggest otherwise is dishonest. Let those who have an historical or cultural interest in it work away – but I strongly object to the suggestion that it be constantly foisted on those who don’t want it.
Where did I suggest it should be foisted onto anyone? You do your own thing go raibh maith agat!
So you would be happy for it not to be compulsory in schools then obviously
fair play , that’s how you pick it up , little things like that .
rasher, what I’m saying is that if its left to the Parents then children won’t learn it all . I think they should learn it up to secondary school and then let them make the decision for themselves .
Joe McHugh should never have been given the post, you need someone with a passion for the Irish language to fight it’s corner….not someone to learn Irish because of his passion for a big paycheck.
Is mise Enda. Níl aon liathróidi agam.
Tá brón orm muintir na hÉireann as ucht as praiseach ceart a rinne mé as an tír. Níl aon meas agam oraibh!
Chomh fada is atá tuarastail mór agam & pinsean níos mó le teacht, tá gach rud ceart go leor. Anois, toddle along & ná bí ag cur isteach orm.
Ar an bhfód.
You reply in Irish and throw in a couple of English words. Obviously aren’t fluent
Paul , does it matter ?
The Irish language lobby getting outraged….quelle surprise Rodney!
Outside of the manufactured and carefully choreographed narrative rammed down our throats through their media engine, there are many crises happening right now which have worsened since FG/labour entered office.
What? Like turning the economy round?
If people choose not to learn it then it’s up the them, it shouldn’t be shoved down people’s throats like it has been for years.
Irish was neglected by the Eircode debacle as well. The could have sorted it out but this FG/LAB are anti Irish and anti Irish Language
Was it? Last time I looked at the Eircode website you could see the address in English and Irish. Now whether it is accurate or not is another question!
sure they still have TG4! what’s their problem?.
Is there any chance at all ye might have the auld quote? You know, when ye say somebody said something, could we read the actual words that came of their mouth? I think it’s called journalism.
Enda does not think about a lot of things . at the banking crisis the other day he thought PayPal was a disaster . when it should have been ppars a HSE system that was a scandalous disaster. The Man is a puppet and not a good one at that.
I never understand people commenting on these types of articles in an almost gleeful way “time to let it die”, “get it off life support”, “drain on resources” etc. Why are you all so eager to kill off a part of our cultural identity? It baffles me that anyone could have such strong negative feelings to something that doesn’t adversely affect anyone.
Just take a look at the Welsh model, nobody in Wales is under any illusion about Welsh in their careers or businesses or whatever, but shock horror the Welsh government and people recognise that maybe there’s a bit more to a language than your paycheque.
Just a note as well that just because I’m defending the Irish language doesn’t mean I think it should be compulsory for everyone all the time. I think it’s important we preserve it as part of our cultural identity. I think it’s important that anyone who wants to would be able to learn the language. And I think the people of the Gaeltacht should be able to live their lives through Irish without barriers if they so wish. Why is that such a terrible thing?
It’s amazing that the article here is about the state of Irish as primary language of communities in the Gaeltacht…..In the west, where a decreasing number of people speak it as their main language…… and yet below the article (in good old Irish fashion) most of the comments are about the education system and whether Irish should be compulsory for the LC or JC and the methods of teaching.
Has it occurred to anyone that these might be two loosely related but different issues?
Its like:
Headline: “Irish music industry reports substantial losses”
Comments: “Sure I was taught music poorly in school”
I do see a lose thematic connection, but what the hell does that have to do with the specific issue and focus of the article?: What can or should be undertaken in the Gaeltachts?, ie. not the other 98% of the country the commenters seem solely focused on. I’m sorry, while the education debate outside the Gaeltacht is an important debate, it is a different debate – sometimes, dear readers it’s not “all about you” (or your incompetent teachers or questionable syllabus in secondary school for that matter).
In any event, I’m not at all surprised by Enda’s wilful ignorance to scientifically established facts. It’s comes across like the linguistic equivalent of a climate change denier. All the linguistics experts say one thing, all the graphs and statistics point in one direction, all the activist groups make the same arguments over and over and over again – but “no” says Ends – “the Gaeltachts are no more in rapid decline than the icecaps are rapidly receding”. Who needs empirical facts when you have a “feeling” for these things? Politics.
I’m gonna steal your analogy, it’s great!
It’s rather puzzling given that he’s been a TD for 40 years in Mayo, which has a Gaeltacht that has for all intensive purposes collapse with only small pockets surviving (up by Shell pipeline), ye imagine if he was keeping an eye on his own constituency he would know how dire the situation was.
There were two analogies in there: you can steal both of them.
Fáilte romhat.
seán ,that is the most sensible and to the point comment on this topic .
I did all my second level education through Irish (English excluded). I have found that it has no value to me when I completed the Leaving Cert. In my opinion it was a disadvantage in my further education and work – in fact it was a significant disadvantage as I had to look for the English meaning of specific words in later life.
I have no interested in killing Irish but I do think that it has been over-invested relative to the interest that the general population have in Irish.
My point exactly.
Sin do rogha féin a mhac, ní hé nach bhfuil deiseanna ann sa theanga.
Criostoir – I do not converse in Irish and I’m not your son!
Powerabbey. I have never agreed with you before, but my spouse had a similar education and was strongly of the belief that it was a disadvantage affecting other subjects.
Rashers – I hope your wife has the sense to get your political views into an area that will help the continued improvement of the future of Ireland.
The teaching of the Irish in schools in the Galltacht isn’t relevant to situation to Gaeltacht. Why do people keep on bringing it up it’s not relevant to the actual topic.
It is relevant however to the overall preservation of the Irish language though. An Ghaeilge can’t survive alone in the Gaeltacht. But I do agree, the gaeltachtaí are in trouble, and require a functional plan to tackle the ongoing decline of Irish as the daily language.
Remember the 20 year plan for Irish? What an utter failure that was. Complete lip service.
If there was an article on this website saying that unemployment in Iorras Aithneach was 40%+ (and high levels of proverty) and that government policies when it came to common European fisheries policy (spanish can have fish as long as our Blue shirted farmers get the grants!) was leading to population decline/language shift in the Cois Farraige Gaeltacht, ye’d still have some bunch of “Dort-speakers” from South Dublin moaning about how Irish was taught in their Bearloirí school.
The crisis is everyone else subsidising them
And which subsidies would these be? Bearloirí like to go about subsidies but they ever seem to have figures to actually lay out. It’s amazing that with all these subsidies that the areas with the highest poverty rates in this state (outside of cities) are in the Gaeltacht. Sure 40% unemployment even during the boom years in parts, the government’s prefered option is they all clear out and than sites can be sold for holiday homes.
Then again the fact is that the state has systematically destroyed the economic base of several Gaeltachtaí by giving away fishing rights in EU negotiations so that the likes of Big farmers can get nice fat cheque from Brussels.
Bearloiri?? Yi bleedin dope
Yup a Bearloirí Bigot, fairly common out there in the Galltacht
An bhuil cad agam dul amach go dti an leithreas
When aren’t they angry about something?
Pádraig Pearse > Quotes Pádraig Pearse quotes (showing 1-5 of 5) “Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam. A country without a language is a country without a soul.” ― Pádraig Pearse
Yeah but didn’t he also talk about kissing a young boy? Or something to that effect?
Nope.
Thing is Kenny dosent think
Bollocks again.
Exact same delusion as Donald Trump’s global warming denial… A vast body of research being produced to show the decline of the Irish Language in all Gaeltacht areas, and the ignorance of the Taoiseach is incredible… Fine Gael have a vested interest in the destruction of our native language.
there will likely be an upsurge in irish over the coming years due to the advent of gaelscoils………………..which offer smaller class sizes and in many cases better educational resources.
personally i think irish should be optional after junior cert.
i am not overly surprised kenny has little interest in protecting the language. his masters at the EU are out to destroy every bit of indigenous culture and ties from the EU member states and making the people more controllable.
Gaelscoileanna having smaller class sizes is a myth. Average class size in Mainstream schools is 24.9 pupils whereas the average class size in Gaelscoileanna is 26.6 pupils (this years statistics – education.ie).
Ooh nooooooo, has there been some sort of reduction in the grants?!?
Sur enda kenny thinks the world is gonna end if he doesn’t win the next election, because probably merkel and lagarde told him so, and the gullible fool believes them!
Tá an cheart aige, tá méadú tar éis teacht ar líon na cainteoirí laethúla Gaeilge sa Ghaeltacht. An fadhb ná, tháinig méadú níos mó fós ar líon na Béarlóirí sa Ghaeltacht le linn an tréimhse cheana. Mar sin, bhí laghdú ar céadatán na cainteoirí laethúla Gaeilge sa Ghaeltacht. (Bhí méadú i cúpla Gaeltacht, ar nós Gaeltacht na nDéise, ach ar an iomlán is laghdú a bhí ann.)
“He [presumably Taoiseach Kenny] is right. There was an increase in the number of daily speakers of Irish in the Gaeltacht. The problem is that there was an even bigger increase in the number of English speakers in the Gaeltacht over the same period. Therefore, there was has been a decrease in the percentage of daily Irish speakers in the Gaeltacht (there was an increase in couple of Gaeltacht areas, such as Gaeltacht na nDéise, but overall it was a decrease).”
Interesting, but as far as I understand the sociology/linguistics of it, as the people who compile the speaker number reports contend: if there is a dominant language with ability to be spoken by all, and a smaller language with ability to spoken by fewer: once the number of smaller language speakers drops below about two thirds, it ceases (based on studies elsewhere in the world ) to be used by the public at large in public for most public communication (local shops, sports clubs, school playgrounds etc.) and the dominant language takes over. The smaller language is thus relegated to a language spoken in kitchens and at dinner tables alone. This inhibits the overall development of the language and its overall level of usage: thus if the percentage falls enough regardless of overall numbers the language as a medium of public expression is put under further pressure and this can thus be considered “a crisis”. It’s not much of a Gaeltacht if people are only half the people are only speaking Irish in their homes and English is the language used everywhere in public. Therefore, I would say that a drop in the percentage is still in reality a “crisis” – albeit one of a less black-and-white sort (assuming you are correct).
sure he’s living in la la land! why would he say any different he hasn’t a clue ….about anything!!
Of course if the Government actually carried out the recommendations of the Linguistic study on Gaeltacht that was published in 2011 than most of the area termed “Gaeltacht” in Enda’s constituency would have been converted into Galltacht. Then again chunks of Mayo were added to Gaeltacht in 1956 due to political interferences from if I recall the local FG TD’s, even though these areas had already undergone language shift in the previous 20 years.
The problem with making it an option is that no one would take it. In my opinion, the syllabus should be altered to be more up to date, and make it exciting, and oppurtunities outside of school for it to be used!!! Like if the government told us that in 10 years that they could offer 1000 jobs to speakers of the Irish language…. And then make it an option! I wonder how many ppl who work in the Irish culture and heritage sector in Ireland can speak Irish?!
If we invested the €4 Billion spent annually and growing on Irish related activities in other things like jobs, tackling emigration etc we would be a really prosperous country. We are borrowing this money every year to do this and the people are being mortgaged for years on the debt. It’s immoral SF/IRA will spend more and are running the councils which need double the money to do everything in Irish and English. Even temporary Stop signs on roadworks are now in Irish — very few understand them but who cares about safety ?
Total state expenditure for 2015 is circa 50billion are you really try to claim that 10% is spent on the Irish language? If so can you please pass me your crack pipe so I can a toke of the good stuff.
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