We need your help now
Support from readers like you keeps The Journal open.
You are visiting us because we have something you value. Independent, unbiased news that tells the truth. Advertising revenue goes some way to support our mission, but this year it has not been enough.
If you've seen value in our reporting, please contribute what you can, so we can continue to produce accurate and meaningful journalism. For everyone who needs it.
Sign in. It’s quick, free and it’s up to you.
An account is an optional way to support the work we do. Find out more.
By continuing, you are indicating that you accept our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy.
BRITAIN’S DECISION TO vote to leave the European Union has led to much speculation about what lies ahead for the UK, Europe and Ireland.
Both before and after the referendum, politicians from various countries all seemed sure of one thing: they didn’t want a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic to return.
Overall, 51.9% of voters (17.4 million) in the UK wanted to leave the EU, while 48.1% (16.1 million) wanted to remain.
In Northern Ireland, 55.8% of voters (440,000) wanted to remain, while 44.2% (349,000) voted to leave.
A rather decisive 62% of people who voted in Scotland (1.6 million) wanted to remain, while 38% (just over one million) wanted to leave.
A second Scottish independence referendum is likely to be held at some point, but could be years down the line.
A border poll in the North is also not likely to take place for some time. Obviously, one of Sinn Féin’s main goals is a united Ireland and they want to see a vote sooner rather than later.
However, others who want the north and south reunified believe it’s too soon to hold a vote and doing so now would ultimately see it fail. Some people also fear a border poll would reignite sectarian tensions and could lead to violence.
Good Friday Agreement
The Good Friday Agreement (GFA) recognises that Northern Ireland remains part of the UK due to the consent of the people living there.
However, it also provides for the people of the island of Ireland to exercise their right of self-determination by agreement between the people of North and South.
The GFA states:
It is for the people of Ireland alone, by agreement between the two parts respectively and without external impediment, to exercise their right of self-determination on the basis of consent, freely and concurrently given, North and South, to bring about a United Ireland, accepting that this right must be achieved and exercised with and subject to the agreement and consent of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland.
If such a vote passed, the process of Irish unification would begin.
In recent weeks, we’ve asked all 158 TDs the following two questions:
1. Do you want to see a border poll in Northern Ireland during this government’s term?
2. If such a vote was passed, would you support reunification if a vote was held in the Republic of Ireland?
The GFA was agreed by politicians on 10 April 1998 following intense negotiations aimed at leading to lasting peace and the decommissioning of weapons by paramilitary groups. It was overwhelmingly approved in two referendums in the North and the Republic the following May, coming into effect in 1999.
The agreement put in place a framework to establish a number of political institutions representing the relationships that exist within and between the islands of Britain and Ireland: the Northern Ireland Assembly, the North South Ministerial Council and the British-Irish Council.
The GFA notes that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland could put legislation allowing for a united Ireland before the UK Parliament if citizens in the North voted for this in a referendum. It states:
If the wish expressed by a majority in such a poll is that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland, the Secretary of State shall lay before Parliament such proposals to give effect to that wish as may be agreed between Her Majesty’s Government in the United Kingdom and the Government of Ireland.
There appears to be a greater desire for a border poll among people in the Republic, compared to people in Northern Ireland.
In July, one month after the Brexit vote, a Paddy Power/Red C Research poll for the Sunday Times found that 65% of people in the Republic said they would vote in favour of a united Ireland.
An opinion poll carried out this week by Amárach Research for Claire Byrne Live asked people in the Republic ‘Is it time to have a United Ireland?’ Just under half (46%) said yes, 32% said no and 22% were unsure. The highest percentage of people in favour of a united Ireland were those in the 25-34 age group, with 54% saying yes.
However, an opinion poll carried out in the North by Ipsos Mori in August and September on behalf of BBC programme The View found that just 22% of people there would support a united Ireland, with 63% wanting to remain in the UK.
More than four in 10 people with a Catholic background who were polled (43%) wanted a united Ireland, while the vast majority of people (88%) from a Protestants background would vote to stay in Britain.
More than eight in 10 respondents (83%) said the UK’s decision to leave the EU hadn’t changed the way they would vote in a border poll.
So, where do Ireland’s political parties and TDs stand on the issue?
Overall, 74 TDs (47%) sent us statements. You can read all of the individual replies here.
Of this, 38 TDs (including 23 from Sinn Féin) want to see a border poll within the lifetime of this government, 33 do not and three are listed as ‘other’ because they did not directly answer the question.
If a border poll was passed in the North, 59 TDs who replied said they would support a similar vote here, three would not and 11 didn’t directly answer the question.
Just 13 of the 50 Fine Gael TDs answered, with six – including Taoiseach Enda Kenny and Foreign Affairs Minister Charlie Flanagan – believing the time is not right for a border poll. However, most said they would support a similar vote in the South if such a referendum passed in the North.
Half of Fianna Fáil TDs – 22 out of 44 – replied to the survey. Of this, the majority believed holding a border poll during the lifetime of this government would be premature. However, many expressed a desire for a united Ireland at some point in the future.
All Sinn Féin TDs, so 23 overall, replied. Unsurprisingly, all are in favour of a border poll and want a united Ireland. All 158 TDs were contacted on several occasions, via phone and email.
Here’s what the main parties and/or leaders think:
Note: All responses are included in full at the request of some ministers and TDs, given the nuances of the topic being discussed.
Fine Gael
A spokesperson said: “Fine Gael supports the Government position that there is no demand for a border poll at this time, as there is no evidence to show a majority of people want to join the Republic.”
Taoiseach Enda Kenny added: ”We have made it perfectly clear that the question of a united Ireland is contained in the Good Friday Agreement, which I support fully, and of which I, as Head of Government, am a co-guarantor with the British Government.
“The Good Friday Agreement and its successor agreements contain a very clear measure to the effect that if people north and south of the Border decide by referendum that there should be a united Ireland, they should have that opportunity. We support this measure. This measure must be part of a continued guarantee of the negotiations that will take place between the European Union and on our future relationship with the United Kingdom.
Does this mean that a Border poll is imminent? No, it does not. Does it mean that the Government is calling for a Border poll now? No, it does not. Does it mean that the Government is looking at the longer term as to what the people in Northern Ireland and the Republic might do in accordance with the Good Friday Agreement? We will guarantee that right and opportunity is protected in the language of the future negotiations. This is an international, legally-binding agreement of which the Republic is co-guarantor and it will be followed through on fully. That time is not now.
Tánaiste Frances Fitzgerald sent us this statement: “As co-guarantor of the Good Friday Agreement, the Government is committed fully to supporting its provisions. That Agreement addresses the question of a united Ireland. The Tánaiste fully supports the provisions of the Good Friday Agreement and its successor Agreements in this regard.
“If, in the future, the people North and South decide by referendum that there should be a united Ireland then that opportunity should be available to them.
The Government will continue to work to ensure that there is full protection for the provisions of the Good Friday Agreement, which is a binding, international agreement, in the context of the forthcoming negotiations between the EU and the UK on the future relationship.
Foreign Affairs Minister Charlie Flanagan and Social Protection Minister Leo Varadkar also don’t think the time is right for a border poll, saying it could lead to increased division in the North.
However, Varadkar said he believes there will be a united Ireland in his lifetime.
“I know that now this is not the time for a border poll. It would be unsuccessful and divisive and could undermine relations between the two communities in the north. We need to achieve a unity of purpose first of all,” he told us.
Fianna Fáil
Micheál Martin said: “Fianna Fáil is absolutely committed to the reunification of Ireland and has been since its foundation. While in Government we were central to the Good Friday Negotiations, in which we negotiated and agreed the mechanism for a border poll.
However, the holding of such a border poll is the end point of a process, where a majority of people in the North have been convinced on the case for withdrawing from the UK. There is no evidence that this shift in public opinion has taken place and indeed the manner in which this immediate border poll has been suggested is likely to have further damaged the prospects of success of any such poll.
“What Fianna Fáil is doing, and what all political parties should be doing now, is to recognise the immense challenge presented by Brexit and work hard at home and abroad to help mitigate the worst impacts of this decision for Northern Ireland.
“It is through such constructive activity, rather than through unilateral demands for border polls, that we can begin to convince neighbours from the unionist community that their best interests are served in an all-Ireland context.”
Sinn Féin
Gerry Adams said: ”I firmly believe that building a united Ireland is in the interests of every Irish citizen, North and South, and offers the most sensible, prudent path to ensuring long-term prosperity, progress and equality for everyone on the island.
“We need to be planning for the future, not sustaining the mistakes of the past and partition, which has held back the economic and social potential of the country since the island was artificially divided.
“At present there are two states on this island, North and South, and three governments in Dublin, Belfast and London trying to run them. None of them can adequately prioritise the interests of all our citizens. For that, we need one integrated vision for the island.
We would be better served by a united Ireland that delivers real democracy, by economies of scale in infrastructural development, by the elimination of service duplication in areas like health and education, and by the economic benefits that would ensue.
“Recent research (Hubner and Van Nieuwkoop, 2015*) shows that Irish unity would result in significant long-term improvements in Ireland’s economy – concluding that Irish unity would result in a €35.6 billion boost during the first eight years of unification.
“Any neutral observer would easily come to the conclusion that there are no advantages for a small island nation, with 6.4 million inhabitants, on the edge of Europe having separate tax regimes and legal systems, competing economic development programmes, and back-to-back health and education systems.”
*The research, carried out by a consulting firm in Vancouver, British Columbia, is based on the models of unification seen in Germany in the late 20th century and post-partition Korea. Three unification scenarios were presented, with the most aggressive estimating a €35.6 billion boost in an all-island GDP in the first eight years of unification.
Labour
Brendan Howlin told us: ”It is the view of the Labour Party that reunification of the island of Ireland must be our ambition, but we recognise the principle of consent that underpins the ongoing peaceful settlement in Northern Ireland.
Under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is empowered to determine the date on which a referendum on reunification of the island may take place, but only in circumstances where it appears that a majority are likely to favour such an outcome. We do not believe that is likely to be the case during the lifetime of this government.
“We support the reunification of the island of Ireland. In the unlikely event that a referendum is held in Northern Ireland, and that the people of the North vote for reunification, the Labour Party would campaign in support of this proposal in the Republic.”
Anti-Austerity Alliance
The AAA sent us this statement: “The Anti-Austerity Alliance TDs – Ruth Coppinger, Paul Murphy and Mick Barry – are opposed to the calls for a border poll. A border poll would be nothing more than a sectarian headcount and would resolve nothing.
“A binary referendum is not a basis to reconcile the two communities, with their opposing national identities and aspirations. It would serve only to heighten tensions and pit Catholic and Protestant workers and young people against each other. The ‘losing side’ would not stoically accept its fate. Such a poll would only deepen divisions and stoke the flames of sectarian conflict.
The AAA TDs, alongside socialist and trade union activists in the North, would actively campaign for a boycott of this vote. We recognise that a majority of Catholics in the North aspire towards Irish unity, at least at some point in the future, for cultural reasons and because of the history of discrimination and oppression within the Northern state. We also recognise that most Protestants support the maintenance of the Union with GB for cultural reasons and because they fear becoming a vulnerable minority within a capitalist united Ireland, a legitimate concern which was reinforced by the experience of the IRA’s armed campaign.
“These fears and aspirations are continually preyed upon and manipulated by the sectarian parties and paramilitaries in both communities to suit their own narrow interests.
“Neither community has the right to coerce the other into a state they do not want to be part of on the basis of a simple majority vote. The current situation is not a solution but a border poll will not provide a solution either. No solution can be found while forces with a vested interest in maintaining sectarian division – whether the Green and Orange parties or British capitalism – continue to dominate.
“Only by building a new movement which unites Protestant and Catholic workers and youth around their common interests and in opposition to the political establishment can we begin to break down the sectarian barriers between our communities. On this basis, The AAA TDs favour a socialist solution to the national problem on this island where the rights of both Catholics and Protestants are guaranteed.”
The above quotes are based on statements from party leaders and/or when a party or alliance sent a joint statement on behalf of all members.
Who said what
Below is a selection of other people’s views from different parties and none.
Several Fianna Fáil TDs are not in favour of a border poll during the lifetime of this government, but most who replied would back reunification if the North did eventually vote to join the Republic.
Most of the Fianna Fáil TDs who replied sent us the same statement, namely:
We don’t believe a border poll is needed within the lifetime of this government. While Brexit has certainly focused the minds of many people, north and south, on a re-united Ireland, a border poll is not what is needed now. Fianna Fáil’s policy has always been for a reunited Ireland. However, this can only be achieved through consensus and respect for all communities, and traditions, on this island. This process only truly began following the Good Friday Agreement.
Some of the party’s members elaborated on their views, with Timmy Dooley telling us: “I’d love to get to the point where there is a border poll and there’s a chance of it succeeding. At the moment it would be a distraction. A lot of issues need to be addressed because of the Brexit vote. There is no chance of it passing, it would be a sideshow.
“I absolutely want to see a united Ireland, but a border poll in lifetime of this government will not be successful. We should be encouraging people to work together to deal with the fallout of Brexit. When people in the North see the long-term implications of Brexit, there is a much better chance of the majority deciding to move towards a Dublin government.
Five years out, there is real potential of it passing. There will be a economic benefit to the six counties of joining the Republic. Britain will be isolated. It’s clear the union is under threat of break-up, Scotland may vote to become independent.
Sectarian issues
His colleague Jim O’Callaghan had this to say: “Even though I believe partition was a sectarian solution to a political problem, I believe a border poll during this government’s term would be inadvisable. Irish unity will only be achieved when we can bring together the different traditions on this island.
At present, one million unionists in Northern Ireland are opposed to and distrustful of Irish unity. The main reason for their current distrust is the violence in Northern Ireland carried out by the provisional IRA for 25 years. They viewed this as a sectarian campaign against their community. Their distrust of Irish republicanism is similar to the distrust that Republicans have of the British security services who colluded in the killing of many nationalists and republicans. It will take time for the wounds in both communities to heal.
“A border poll in the next year or so will be extremely divisive. It will simply harden opinions and force people into sectarian groupings. It will probably result in sectarian violence. Northern Ireland was established as a sectarian state, with widespread discrimination against Catholics. That has now ended – not because of the IRA’s campaign of violence – but because of the civil rights campaign and the unacceptability of discrimination.
We should not, however, repeat the mistakes of the past and keep viewing the North as an entity made up of two irreconcilable groups. Bonds and bridges between the two communities must be further built. When those bonds are strong, the unionist population will recognise that a new Ireland, encompassing all the people of the island, is a promising and non-threatening prospect. All parties on the island now accept that unity is a decision for the people of Northern Ireland.
“In a less sectarian climate a border poll can occur but politicians have a responsibility to ensure that the current peace is not threatened. A border poll in the next few years would, in my opinion, destabilise the current peace in the North. The recent vote on Brexit in Northern Ireland shows that unionists are prepared to see the benefits of remaining part of a union with the south, rather than a small union with an inward looking and self-interested England. Calls by Sinn Féin for an immediate border poll undermine the significance of this change in unionism. Such tactless calls are counter-productive to securing Irish unity.”
‘Good economically and politically’
Unsurprisingly, all Sinn Féin TDs are in favour of a border poll, something the party has repeatedly called for.
Brian Stanley said: “Due to Brexit if the North is dragged out of the EU by England, then there will be two currencies and two political systems on the island and one part of Ireland in the EU and the other out of it.
The island divided in three different ways such as this will have serious impact socially, economically and politically. Reunification would bring the opposite and more positive effects.
His colleague Carol Nolan stated: “Partition has impacted and stunted development on this island and has been an obstacle in terms of developing agriculture and tourism. It doesn’t make sense to have two legal systems and two currencies on such a small island.”
Peadar Tóibín said he wants the people of the North to be given ”a democratic chance … to indicate their choice”.
He said a united Ireland would “reduce duplication and therefore the cost of key public service delivery” and “reduce the barriers to enterprise on the island”. He added that the border is a “competitive advantage for criminals” and getting rid of it would help prevent smuggling.
John Halligan and Finian McGrath of the Independent Alliance said they would support a border poll during the lifetime of the government, with Halligan stressing the idea needs to be backed by people in the north.
‘A significant risk to the peace process’
The majority of Fine Gael TDs did not reply to the question, but most of those who did don’t think the time is right for a border poll.
Josepha Madigan told us: “There is no evidence that a border poll in Northern Poll would result in a change to the status quo. In fact, the evidence points to the current arrangement, of devolved government based in Stormont, as being the preferred option for most people in Northern Ireland. The peace process, which is hugely important for people living both north and south of the border, is underpinned by the constitutional arrangement established by the Good Friday Agreement.
A border poll could undermine this, likely proving highly divisive and polarising, reigniting old tensions we thought quelled. Without evidence of popular support for unification within Northern Ireland, a border poll would be destabilising and entail a significant risk for the peace process. If evidence of a major change in public opinion in Northern Ireland emerges, I would reconsider this matter. But as things stand, I do not believe that a border poll should be held.
Peter Burke said: “It is too soon and would be extremely politically divisive. At present, there is no evidence of a majority wanting to join the Republic. People have a right to their opinion but discussions of border poll in the short-term future are premature.
“If a poll was to be held, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland must judge it likely that a majority of the electorate would opt for a united Ireland. At present, there is no evidence to suggest that such an outcome would occur. If those resident in the both the North and the South wanted reunification then I would support it.”
‘Psychological borders caused by deep hurt, pain, suffering and loss’
Gino Kenny from People Before Profit (PBP) said: ”I’d like to see a united Ireland. In order for that to happen there has to be a consensus in the six counties.
“A border poll has been mooted many times over the last 20/30 years, a focus is on it against after the Brexit vote. I’m not against it, it depends on how it’s done. It’s about timing, I’m not sure it would pass, probably not based on polls.”
His PBP colleagues also questioned whether or not such a poll would pass. Richard Boyd Barrett said: “We would support a border poll, another question is whether or not it would pass.”
Bríd Smith added:
I think a border poll at this time would be divisive. I don’t think this issue has been properly debated. We have a lot of reform to do before we look attractive to Northern Ireland.
Eamon Ryan said the Green Party “would only like to see a border poll in Northern Ireland when the time is right which is not the case as it currently stands”.
His colleague Catherine Martin added: “One of the outcomes of the Brexit referendum was the immediate call by some for a border poll. Firstly, I should state that I would love to see a united Ireland by peaceful means. I was born and reared in a border town – I know first-hand how destructive and divisive borders can be – we do not want to see the return of physical borders.
“But much more work is needed to remove in many respects an even more important debilitating border, namely the psychological borders caused by deep hurt, pain, suffering and loss which is still extremely palatable and present for many in both communities. So much more work, often low-profile work, must first be done to build up trust and mutual respect.
Surely at this stage, after all that the people, north and south, have been through in the troubles, we should accept the one overriding principle that reconciliation, mutual respect, tolerance, consultation and inclusivity must be front and centre. Reconciliation and ultimately the goal of a united Ireland means bringing people together, all the time building trust not coming up with snap, unilateral proposals which exclude instead of include, and which instil fear instead of instilling much needed trust and confidence.
“It is my opinion that a border poll should not be rushed as that would alienate and would prove divisive running the risk of turning the poll into a sectarian headcount and going on then to proceeding to lose the vote, as inevitably would happen, would be a serious setback for the goal of achieving a united Ireland for a generation.
“Yes, I would like to see a border poll take place some day, but only if it had a realistic chance of being successful and that is not the case at present as the unionist community is to say at the very least certainly not enthused by it – to have a poll knowing in all likelihood that it is going to fail is a retrograde step.”
Four independent TDs replied, with all in favour of a border poll. Mattie McGrath said: “As a political proposition there would appear to be little to fear in subjecting the issue to a democratic vote.
“Consensus is a key principle of the post-Good Friday politics. If the proposition was put in line with the provisions of that agreement then it might provide a measure of clarity that would be helpful in an environment that is increasingly uncertain post-Brexit.”
The Social Democrat and Workers and Unemployed Action Group TDs did not reply to the survey.
With reporting by Ronan Smyth and Christina Finn
To embed this post, copy the code below on your site
The point of the calculated grades wasn’t to level the playing field so all schools would be treated the same, it was to try and mimic the results each student would have gotten had they sat the exams. Previous results from schools should have been taken into account.
@Paddy Cullen AIWS: That wouldn’t achieve it either considering school performances fluctuate each year.
@Rochelle: we have league tables for years and yes they fluctuate but if a school consistently achieves then why should they be punished
@john s: Thankfully we don’t have league tables for schools here, Sunday Times does some table. School league tables is a British thing and they are a pox.
@john s: because they didn’t get those results, somebody else did. Their teachers gave an estimate of their points. It was based around that estimate.
@Aidan O’ Neill: yes but what were the downgrades based on. If a school consistently achieved high scores year on year what is there to justify downgrading students from that school disproportionately to the national average.none students being punished
@Paddy Cullen AIWS: Coming from a teacher myself, it is a disgrace on the students who completed their L.C last year and went on to take a year out for whatever reason. Or even those who went on to do a plc last year, didn’t get their course after the plc so had to reapply through the CAO now. How can these students stand a chance of getting the course they wanted after the points rocketed? Very, very unfair on these students. Seen the impact first hand. Shame on the government for not making it fairer for those students. A total disgrace.
Heard the principle of the institute on the radio today. She was very structured in her arguments and unless she completely lied then they and their pupils have been absolutely robbed.
@john s: what station was she on. Wouldn’t mind listening back
@Daniel Guiney: heard a clip on newstalk on Ciara Kelly’s slot don’t know if she was live or not just heard the end. But yes I agree with the poster.
@Sarah Cullen: thanks for that. Found it on newstalk breakfast about 2/3 the way through
@Daniel Guiney: TV3 5.30 news
@Daniel Guiney: it was Yvonne o’Toole on newstalk breakfast
@john s: from an study done in uk and Australia among kids who got the same points in their Leaving Cert exam, those coming from public schools did better in the university than private school goers (with the exception of top achivers in both type of schools who did equaly well).
So when she says private schools have been robbed, she is right, those extra points belong to the well paid efforts private schools put to give their students an optimal learning enviroment so they can do better in the Leaving Cert exam than kids who can’t benefit from it.
But, the extra points don’t belong to the students personal capabilities and effort and in that sense students have not been robbed. On the contrary, normal circunstances gift them with extra points based on economic inequality in detriment of kids coming from lower income parents.
They will open a Pandora box by going to court with this.
That’s ridiculous. Fair enough trying to help out disadvantaged schools but if they don’t have the smarts, I’d rather a neurosurgeon from a privileged school carry out my surgery.
@Nomad: Ridiculous comment. Schools like the institute of education tell their students how to answer questions, rote learning, no figuring it out for themselves.
@Fephie Stitz: rote learning like every school in Ireland
@Fephie Stitz: Nonsense. If a doctor taking a tumour out of my brain know how to do so because they’ve repeated in practice 10000 times and got it right 10000 times. I’ll take it over the “helped” doctor that got 80%.
@Nomad: can I ask how it went the first 9999 times??
@Nomad: are you implying that people who go to fee paying schools are smarter?
No students are being marked up that’s the point. Do you want your surgeon to be in the job because daddy could afford all the assistance to get his dumb ass into college or someone who genuinely worked for it.
Ask yourself why you don’t meet too many surgeons with working class accents.
@Nomad:
Do you really think the leaving cert is the most important qualification for a neurosurgeon?
It’s not like they’re letting kids skip college this year, they still have to do a college course like
@Nomad:
You know removing tumours isn’t on the biology paper yet, yeah? You don’t even need to remove one tumour to get 625 points in your leaving cert.
Just so you know like
@Nomad: You’re a muppet if you think the LC has any standing after completing an undergrad.
Yes, some people just aren’t fit for academics — I won’t lie to you. But the LC is an ~adequete~ filter to determine who is most likely to finish their chosen undergrad based on their grades. It doesn’t determine how well you’ll actually perform in the undergrad, because it just can’t. In STEM it might have a stronger correlation but I stand by my point. Whether Dr D4 got more points than Dr DEIS doesn’t matter, what matters in the end is how they performed in their undergrad and clinical placement.
@Nomad: I’d rather one who got through college. If they get through medical training their secondary school doesn’t matter. Even if somebody is gifted 600 points in the leaving they’d still have to get through a fair amount of training
@Nomad: if I had to choose a surgeon base only in their secundary school I would definitely go for the disadvantage. Kids with no extra resources, no material motivations and no educated parents to guide them need to rely on hard work, sense of responsability and personal capabilities. I want that in my surgeon.
Private schoolers have a whole structure making their learning optimal, but once they go to university and are in equal grounds kids from public schools seem to do better than those coming from private.
Great headline for the government. High achievers thrown under the bus
@Jonathan Furlong: more like government introduces policy to balance the inequality in our society.
Thankfully we dont have a class system like the uk where the wealthy help each other allomg and the commonors kniw their place.
If it were the other way around and the DEIS schools were claiming to be hard done by there would be hell to pay with politicians falling over themselves to condemn the methods used.
@Gerard O’Sullivan: exactly. It was a choice between further disadvantage the already disadvantaged or an equal system that doesn’t award extra points due to your bank balance.
Government made the right decision here. Those from the fee paying schools have the resources to still be fine. Those from poor areas do not.
It’s an absolute mess. Every single aspect of it will be subject to numerous court cases in the coming years.
@Adam Conroy: you’re dead right Adam. Some of these students will potentially be robbed of 100,000s in income over their career because of this.
@Nomad: don’t worry their rich parents will still pull strings to get them into high paying no riffraff allowed jobs.
@john doe: nice chip on your shoulder there John..
Boost these disadvantaged schools every year then
@eoin carroll: Yes, it’s called the HEAR scheme. But it’s still not enough.
@SL: Not everyone in DEIS schools automatically qualifies. There’s an income threshold in place too, so lots don’t qualify even if just above it even though you have the same schooling and experience as everyone else there. That was the case when I was in school anyway.
Not all high achievers were in private schools or grind school, this fiasco has destroyed many students, punished because the school they attended consistently get high grades, again the squeezed middle got squeezed again
The inflation was at the lower end of the results scale. Two out of three higher achievers did not get their preferred course choice. Once the LC was abandoned, it was never going to be fair – it was a strategic choice who to disadvantage: the group that got it were the hard working, dedicated and yes generally middle class. So the advantage d were disadvantaged.
Grind school students have the option to sit the leaving cert in October if they feel that their grades do not reflect their ability. Yes, it sucks for them having to wait until next year to see if they get enough points for the course they want. Especially when so many have already taken a year out to repeat the leaving cert. But at least they have the option to sit the exam and get the grade they deserve. A lot of other countries are not providing this option.
@Donal Mc Carthy: Dónal can you please tell me what you did 7 months ago… It’s not comparable to if they did the exams 2 weeks after finishing school when doing it 7 months after. Akin to asking a student to repeat the leaving cert the following year with no tuition in between. It’s all a mess but the most unfair bit is the random selection of marking up and down like the German school who assigned 50% of the students H1s in the class and something like 14% were awarded this mark and their class mates marked down for no other reason than just because.
@Sarah Cullen: All I’m saying is they are lucky to have an option to sit the exams if they are not happy with their grades. Students in Scotland and England just had to lump it.
I’m not sure I buy your 7 months argument. I missed an exam once in college and had to sit it half a year later. My grade was in line with what I expected. Many people sit college exams a 12 months after finishing the class work.
@Donal Mc Carthy: Dónal you are right it’s all luck this year. No reflection on the student just literally those lucky enough to be awarded high grades. Anyone who did well will forever be the one who was lucky which isn’t fair either.
Uncanny really to think a pandemic has turned out to be of benefit to more ” Disadvantaged ” schools! Seriously is that what it takes!
@Colette Kearns: we could just award everyone 6 H1 grades at birth
To be Honest I would say 98% of students happy with results.
It was a though time for them and the uncertainties were stressful up to getting results.
More so the Government have done a good job on the handling of it also..
My own daughter and friends were very happy and thought their grades were as good as they would have gotten.. bar it seems 1 they thiught it should have been higher as was their best subject.. this was across the board
Need to do what UK did.
Give students the choice to pick the Teachers predicted grade or the Government adjusted grade whichever is higher and run the CAO offers again! Then no one can complain.
What happens next year when the students who will have to sit the exams and their results are not as good (ie) the grades deflate back to normal. Those students will be competing with students from this years unearned inflated results if this years student is deferring for a year or if they decide to change courses.
I think that this has been the best possible result. The grind schools have been gaming the system for years in a system that is supposed to ensure the most able kids make the hardest to access courses. Well-off families are the only ones who can afford the Institute and similar. This is the first year in a while that the third level access gap has closed, not widened.
Don’t forget that the private schools have still done better than the public schools – it’s just that the gap is less this year.
Minister for education – not educated.
Take your bell curve and ding-a-ling where the sun don’t shine.
Does anybody else find it infuriating that we have Simon Harris one minute dictating to us about health policy and the next minute Mr education. Absolutely everything that’s wrong with the political system. Why can’t we have qualified people designated to areas that they are qualified in?
Majority of kids got 1st choice.
Some private schools who specialise in dealing with repeats are upset, most students sitting their repeat LC in these institutes had already attended 5 or 6 years in another private schools…
So a few spoilt brats are unhappy.
Tut tut
So with 6% considering legal action based on losing out due to no “school profiling benefit”. Does that open the door to the thousands of former non fee paying students who may have been denied an opportunity to pursue their chosen field study because of institutional bias to also take legal action against the Dept. and seek compensation? I suspect that it might be worth a review to see if their constitutional rights may have been violated. Just a thought!
Then the points go upper so even if you did well then you still might not have enough. If you deferred a year you are worse off.
Hard paper round had simon
I can’t imagine how stressful this must have been for people taking it. At least that can take written papers if not happy I believe
Coming from a teacher myself, it is a disgrace on the students who completed their L.C last year and went on to take a year out for whatever reason. Or even those who went on to do a plc last year, didn’t get their course after the plc so had to reapply through the CAO now. How can these students stand a chance of getting the course they wanted after the points rocketed? Very, very unfair on these students. Seen the impact first hand. Shame on the government for not making it fairer for those students. A total disgrace.
have your say