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HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of US federal employees will stay home without pay today after lawmakers failed to reach an agreement on ending a government shutdown before the start of the working week.
Although leaders of President Donald Trump’s Republican Party and the opposition Democrats said progress had been made in a weekend of talks, they pushed back a vote scheduled for 1 am (6 am Irish time) for another 11 hours.
The impasse, the first of its kind since 2013, had already cast a huge shadow over the first anniversary of Trump’s inauguration as president on Saturday.
During a shutdown, vital services will still be provided by law enforcement, immigration officers, the central bank, veterans’ hospitals and the military.
But other government services are closed.
After special weekend sessions of Congress which had seen bitter recriminations traded by both parties, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell pledged to address Democrat concerns over key issues such as immigration reform in a speech to the chamber late Sunday.
The Senate’s top Democrat Chuck Schumer responded by saying he was “happy to continue my discussion with the majority leader about reopening the government” but added that the parties were “yet to reach an agreement on a path forward.”
McConnell then called for Congress to reconvene for another vote on a stop-gap funding measure at noon, a proposal which was nodded through.
Hopes that the shutdown, which began at midnight Friday, could be limited to the weekend had been raised yesterday when a bipartisan group huddled for hours on trying to end the standoff, but they ultimately failed to resolve all their differences.
Earlier in the day Trump encouraged the Senate’s Republican leaders to invoke the “nuclear option” — a procedural maneuver to change the chamber’s rules to allow passage of a budget by a simple majority of 51 votes to end the shutdown.
But Senate leaders have been wary of such a move in the past, as it could come back to haunt them the next time the other party holds a majority.
White House press secretary Sarah Sanders said Trump had spoken during the day with McConnell and Senate Majority Whip John Cornyn. She did not mention Trump’s speaking with any Democrats but said White House director of legislative affairs Marc Short had been in touch with members of both parties and updated the president.
“We are continuing to work hard towards reopening the government,” Sanders said.
Essential services continue
At the heart of the dispute is the issue of undocumented immigration.
Democrats have accused Republicans of poisoning chances of a deal and pandering to Trump’s populist base by refusing to back a program that protects an estimated 700,000 “Dreamers” — undocumented immigrants who arrived as children — from deportation.
Democrats have refused to go along with the temporary federal funding request unless it addresses the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program in part because they fear Republican leaders will not act to protect DACA recipients before deportations would begin in large numbers in March.
But in a signal to Democrats, McConnell committed on the Senate floor to addressing immigration in timely fashion.
“Should these issues not be resolved by the time the funding bill before us expires on 8 February 2018, assuming that the government remains open, it would be my intention to proceed to legislation that would address DACA, border security and related issues,” McConnell said.
But that commitment means little on the other side of the Capitol, where House Republicans told reporters they would not be bound by any agreement reached in the Senate to address immigration.
“I don’t see any of our people interested in some half-baked idea that’s produced by a self-appointed group of senators,” congressman Tom Cole said according to Roll Call.
Essential federal services and military activity are continuing, but even active-duty troops will not be paid until a deal is reached to reopen the US government.
There have been four government shutdowns since 1990. In the last one, more than 800,000 government workers were put on temporary leave.
“We’re just in a holding pattern. We just have to wait and see. It’s scary,” Noelle Joll, 50, a furloughed US government employee, told AFP in Washington.
New York Governor Andrew Cuomo, a Democrat, said that state funding would pay for the reopening Monday of the Statue of Liberty, the inspirational landmark that was among facilities affected by the shutdown.
Anti-Trump protests
Republicans have just a one-seat majority in the Senate, and therefore have to lure some Democrats to their side to get a 60-vote supermajority to bring the stop-gap funding motion forward.
Highlighting the deep political polarisation, crowds estimated in the hundreds of thousands marched through major US cities on Saturday against the president and his policies and to express support for women’s rights.
They gathered again Sunday in Las Vegas, chanting: “Power to the polls.”
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There is no risk of perforation for medical abortions, it was really shocking bias on RTE’s behalf from start to finish. The whole tone was ridiculously critical of women on web. In addition, there is no way of telling the difference between a miscarriage and medically induced abortion. The whole show was full of scaremongering and outright falsehoods. Shocking.
Medical abortion is the safest type of termination a women can have. Instead of being outraged that desperate women are using the best and cheapest possible resource available to them, let’s ask ourselves why they feel forced to do so. Because this country forces them into the situation. Banning abortion will never stop abortion, it just sweeps it under the rug. We need free, safe and legal abortion in Ireland, stop the exportation, stop the oppression!
Unless you are calling every Irish male a rapist then no, this country is not forcing women into this situation.
Pregnancy occurs at all times and no one has the rig to make judgements on the circumstances a woman finds herself pregnant in. How or why or when she got pregnant is not the issue, what matters is her choice to continue the pregnancy or not. Pregnancy is an a condition only women face, and it is an issue that they have no choice in continuing or not under Irish abortion laws. So yeah, women are forced.
Over 30 women had an abortion for at least the 9th time last year in England… and that’s okay with you?
And what has that got to do with you?
Last time I checked my constitution extended the right to life for the unborn. So, it has something to do with every one of us when laws are being broken. With all the methods of contraceptions and the morning after pill widely available in Ireland it proves how selfish and shallow some people are that they would still procure an abortion. The fact that some women have had an abortion more times than there are fingers on their hands shows how blatent the abuse of the taxpayers funding is ongoing. So, when you have a section of society clamouring for abortion on demand I think you will find its very much my business if the taxpayer is expected to foot the bill. Maybe the lone cricketer has no problem with this, but I do.
Fiona we will have every Tom Dick and Harry getting pregnant and then having abortions if they legalize this. People need to use contraception if they don’t wish to have children. I don’t want children so therefore I pay for contraception rather than taking a risk and getting pregnant. Of course there is horrible situations involving rape etc. but there are other options ie. adoption. I am so against abortion, it’s a life for Gods sake!
TheLoneHurler your taxes and mine pay for smokers to have chemotherapy “on demand”, for alcoholics to have liver transplants, junkies to get methadone and for the morbidly obese to have gastric bands fitted. Do you consider that medical treatment “blatant abuse of taxpayers’ funding”?
And since when is the *Irish* taxpayer paying for women to have multiple abortions? Why should it concern you what the NHS does with its funding? Do your taxes contribute to the NHS?
@ fiona ryan
“Pregnancy is an a condition only women face, and it is an issue that they have no choice in continuing or not under Irish abortion laws. So yeah, women are forced.”
Would you ever make up your mind? The pro-aborts claim that it’s a woman’s CHOICE.
“Last time I checked my constitution extended the right to life for the unborn. So, it has something to do with every one of us when laws are being broken. ”
The constitution also states that a woman’s place is in the home. We can assume then that every time you see a woman working, you let them know they in in breach of the constitution?
@Tayto… Your against abortion, probably due to religion and use contraception. Sure isn’t the catholic church against contraception?? Look at some African countries where aids is still an epidemic, they are told that god does not allow contraception and so it is banned, which is a load of bollox.
And adoption? Yeah that’s great. You tell the victim of a horrific crime like rape that she must now carry her assailants child for 9months against her will, essentially making her a hostage, and that after all that, shure there’s adoption! Who is anyone to decide what A woman should or should not do with her body? Who is anyone to play god and decide that they know best and abortion is bad? Who is anyone to make this women feel even worse? By being so adamantly against abortion you are making decisions that are not yours to make and the fact you make those decisions based on a book of fables written about a man YEARS after his death in a language that has been translated and basterdized so many times since it was originally written there is no way that anything is in true context anymore, a book of stories written by me who were named after the Beatles by the looks of things cos there were no Paul’s or Johns in the middle east or wherever back then is ridiculous. PS this man whom dictates your views, Jesus, I do hope you do not visualise him as any form of white man what so ever as he was most definately not.
Fiona you will get a shit load of response back on you opinion, and to be honest everybody will have great points weather it’s for or against, so don’t get defensive, to me fair to everyone it might be a good idea to make it legal, but it has to be for the right reasons whatever they are, it has to be better to support it and protect woman then let them off buying drugs on the internet and taken them without real medical support, I would take the view it is wrong for abortion but also take to view we have to protect the woman and support them in circumstances like abortion,
@Fiona
I think I’ll take the opinion of the Master of the Rotunda over you.
They claim that it SHOULD be her right to choose. At the moment there is no choice.
I think you should question the master of the rotundas biases. I’ve never heard even the strongest anti-choice campaigner make such a bollocks claim. Have you ever heard of a woman miscarrying suffer from perforations? No? Well that’s because it can’t happen unless something physical is inserted which doesn’t happen during medical abortions. Medical abortions induces miscarriage and it is impossible to tell the differences between the two.
Fiona
He is the Master of the Rotunda. Do you think its wise for women to ignore his opinion?
Are you worried about the woman’s health ?
I think it’s unwise for him to be giving women scaremongering information that is related to the dangers of surgical abortions when speaking about medical abortions and after giving what is categorically, easily verifiably false information it would make me seriously question him and his affiliations.
Your constitution? Are you a Sovereign state? Well don’t worry, nobody is going to take the unborn inside you away, unless they do a psych test and see how much of a lunatic you are.
Where is your evidence of women from Ireland receiving 9 abortions btw?
I agree. It’s not my body, not my choice and I no not of the circumstances the woman is in. What kind of country is this that makes our problem someone else’s? it should be the woman’s right to decide what is right for her.
Fiona Ryan – excellent post.
Yea Fiona
because in your opinion, everyone who is against abortion is so because of religion..
Grow up
People can be against this barbaric practice and not have an ounce of faith or belong to any church.
Bridget – but you are, are you not?
@Fiona
Please list your obstetric and/or gynacological qualifications so we can see why you believe you can insult one of the most highly qualified and respected medics in the country.
Bridget, I never mentioned religion once you’re probably getting me mixed up with someone else.
And no Mike I’m not an obstetrician. But the claim made last night was absolutely false, as the doctor from women on web tried to testify. Google it, you won’t find that accusation on even the life institute, it’s absolutely false and related to the potential risk for surgical abortion. That is a fact and easily verified. I suggest you verify it yourself instead of blindly believing a man whose claims were put into question by the other doctor on the show who had 25 years experience in providing terminations to women.
Mike – trying to control opinions as well as choices.
Stating my own opinion doesn’t mean I’m trying to control anyone. Victim mentality much?
An acorn is to a tree what an embryo is to human life, just a possibility. No matter what form of contraception a female uses, at least 1 in every 100 females will become pregnant while using contraception. The morning after pill would need to be taken by every woman, everytime she has sex, even when she is using contraception if she is to 100% sure to stop herself from becoming pregnant. Alternatively men could keep control over their sperm and not have sex, they could also have a snip or they could realise that once they ejaculate they lose all control over what happens to that sperm until and unless it results in a human life. There are many taxpayers who would much rather fund services that allow woman autoonomy over their own bodies, then pay for children that are not wanted before they are born and in some cases not carried for properly after they are born, mostly by fathers who happily abandone both the child and the mother. You will of course know that almost every section in society is in favour of limited abortions rights in Ireland. You’re definitely hurling alone when your trying to convince people with your ignorant arguements regarding abortions and contraception reliability. Your lone cricketer, lone hurler analogy is so misogynistic, but its very reflective of the point of veiw you put forwand.
Sorry fiona that comment should have been for Speak
@Fraj
“Would you ever make up your mind? The pro-aborts claim that it’s a woman’s CHOICE.”‘
People who are pro choice support a woman’s choice to decide whether she wants to remain pregnant or not. If a woman is forced to remain pregnant because she cannot obtain an abortion when she wants one, then yes, she is begin forced against her will to remain pregnant.
It’s really quite simple.
I thought so Bridget but u go to yd r other sites and it’s all religious fanatics
So..
Richard Just because people believe in God dosen’t mean that they still can’t have an opinion on abortion..
It might be reenforced by their faith or not they are still entitled to hold it..
Why don’t you go on to Secular Pro Life site or Atheist Pro Life sites, I do, they are very interesting as well..
My point is that you Don’t have to be anyway Religious to be against intentional abortion.
Tayto-
As far as I know, neither Tom, Dick, nor Harry can get pregnant, as they are all men. That’s not one to worry about so…
Bridget – but just to be clear, you are religious?
@Florence Nightingale
It’s even simpler than that!
Nobody has the right to impose their warped view of “choice” on an innocent unborn baby.
The right to life of the innocent trumps “choice” every time.
Well Paul to be absolutely clear
1) for starters its really is none if your business
2) ill answer because I stated it on here before so its nothing new
I was pro Life long before I found my faith…
3) you don’t need to have any religion of any kind to be against abortion.
It really is only common sense, you don’t kill a living human being, at any age or stage in development
Bridget – Ah come on, Pro Life prior to finding your faith? Am I to assume you were not indoctrinated into the Catholic Church as an infant? Interesting that you call yourself pro life when on another thread you advocated the hanging of a man, when is it ok not to be ProLIfe?
I would argue that what another persons autonomy is none of your business when it in no way affects you. Further, you have previously espoused your religious views on this site, which makes it other people’s business. Funny how you are happy for your faith to impact on the lives of others, which is what ‘faith’ does, but when the others question your faith, you state it is none of their business. I don’t want you faith to be any if my business, but unfortunately other people’s faith impacts on my life every day.
Well first
No
I wasn’t indoctrinated here in this country or anywhere else for that matter.
Im from a Non religious background.
I think you may have me confused with someone else there, so ill let it slip how you are accusing me in the wrong of a couple of things..
1: I never commented on anyone hanging anyone ever.
2: I never use religion as part of my debate on abortion issue EVER
I believe it’s not just a religious issue, its a Human Rights Issue.
So you really must have me confused with someone else
Bridget – I do not have you confused with anyone else, on April 15 at 4.26pm you wrote:
“If you have ever seen or held a newborn and imagine that happening to it, you would call for that man to be hanged..”
We are all born atheist and therefore are all strictly speaking from a non religious background, but I do not believe you were not brought up in an Irish Catholic household, your name would suggest you are named after she who brings the spring and I do not mean the sun.
At least be honest enough to admit to your old posts for it is too easy to call you out on it.
Could you screen shot that for me please, or the exact piece it was written on, i may have it saved myself, as that was not me.
Sorry
Not thats its any of your business again but i Wasn’t brought up in an Irish catholic household.
Why do you have such difficulty in believing what I say?!?
“Why do you have such difficulty in believing what I say?!?”
Well speaking just for myself, it’s because much of what you say isn’t true.
Boy who cried wold and all that.
Bridget – unlike you I check my facts before posting and it links to exactly the same Twitter account as you are linked to now.
Look for yourself and come back to me.
http://www.thejournal.ie/profile/78797/true-bridget-1114059/
Bridget, I’ve seen you support abortion in circumstances where the mother may come to harm and say nobody would deny an abortion in those circumstances. I told you they do and you called me all sorts of names.
Later you denied ever showing your support for abortion in those circumstances and claimed abortion in the case of TFMR and FFA was wrong.
So which Bridget do we have today? You can’t be surprised if people don’t believe you. You don’t even believe yourself.
So do you value your rights over that of the
Unborn. Good job your parents were of a different opinion.
It’s not about only your rights, but also that of the vulnerable and those with no voice. Sure there are cases where this is a last resort. Also nothing was stopping these women from going over to England and having a medical abortion. Just out of curiosity at what week do you consider it too late to abort. Wondering when a foetus qualifies as a human in your eyes
Bridget:
“If you have ever seen or held a newborn and imagine that happening to it, you would call for that man to be hanged..”
Bridget supports hanging people. What a vile thing to say.
Nothing stops women from travelling? You can’t be that naive? Financial issues, health issues, emotional issues, asylum and immigration issues, being in an unsafe relationship, all factors that prevent women from travelling everyday! And I don’t think the issue of weeks and months should be a factor, if Ireland had free safe and legal abortions then the majority of terminations would take place before the 12th week, long before viability as is the case in England.
Issues of viability and late term abortions are a product of the ban, where women are forced to delay their terminations, be that because they must save the money to travel over the course of weeks, can’t leave their children or any number of reasons!
Ok, thank you for the link Paul
First,
when you accuse me of Advocating hanging & when I said I didn’t comment on any hanging thread ever,
I knew I didn’t because its usually always abortion issues I comment on..
That comment was on an abortion thread, Gosnell, the absolute horrific, gruesome case of abortions
Second
By Saying “you” would call for him to be hanged is NOT the same as advocating anyone to be hung ever!
So no, I don’t advocate hanging but in cases like that I can truly say I can understand how some people might support it..
Paul
She said “you would call for that man to be hanged”… Thats not advocating hanging!!
Everyone says things to emphasise a point.. Eg he should be hung, drawn and quartered or i’ll fecking kill him.. It doesnt mean you approve of murder or violence
Bridget is one of the most kind hearted and courteous posters on the Journal. Dont twist her words to try and make her look bad. She hasnt a bad bone in her body..
Thank you Sinead.
I also tried to thank you on a previous post where i was wrongly accused but it wouldn’t let me comment for some reason.
Something really must have struck a cord on that thread, for that particular comment to be remember..
Bridget ducks and dives and denies again
Answered like a politician Fiona. Nice way of evading my question. It’s valid question and should be answered, if not to me then at least to yourself.
My point being when does a child have rights, why is it in your eyes that it only has them once born. A bit like out of site out of mind.
Don’t buy your reasons for not being able to jump on a plane. The reasons given above could also qualify if it was done locally.
The problem is you like most people on either side of the argument treat it like a black or white situation, when it is obviously not. Sure there are cases when abortions are the better decision.
But don’t write back and say in all cases abortions are ok, regardless of the situation. Incase your wondering I am not some religious nut, I am actually atheist with generally liberal views. One thing is for sure Fiona, this argument is going to continue for some time to come.
Bridget.
No worries..
Bridget – so you did write it? And it was a direct quote, no omissions or additions? You can call it what you like, but it is advocating to me, which is not very ProLife and not very Christian.
Agreed Paul. She changes her mind every 5 seconds anyway
It’s not advocating, not in the least.
Just because you think it is, still doesn’t make it so..
Denial again. What a sorry state of affairs if you say things to get a rise and find yourself later denying them. No backbone to behind your own remarks nor apologise for them
Ailbhe
You seem to be the only person on here out to get a rise out if people..
No Bridget, I’m just here to call you out on your lies.
I’m an honest person that will either stand by what I say or apologise if what I said caused offense or was misconstrued.
You however say things and later deny them. You and Sinéad can’t stand by what you say, despite the obvious fact that you said it. It’s shallow and pathetic.
Ohaimhirhgin
My mother is pro choice. She *chose* to have me. What’s your point?
Many mothers are pro choice. Did you see people calling those on the pro choice side “pro abortion” and mistakenly assume that this meant we all thought all pregnancies should be aborted? Because that would just be silly.. There’s a reason the word choice is involved.
It is such a shocking indictment of our country that in this day and age our young women have to resort to the internet for help.
This at a time when they would be feeling at their most vulnerable and should be able to get treated in their own country and in out own hospitals.
At what cost to the taxpayer?
As a tax payer I would be happy to pay for that thelonehurler.
Well the kind folk at women on web are only looking for €90… so off you go.
I think it would be ideal to have a referendum tomorrow for abortion on demand. To vote you must supply your PPS number. A yes vote will see your tax increase or social welfare cut on a pro-rata basis to cover all these lifestyle abortions that we currently ban in Ireland.
@mary lyons
“It is such a shocking indictment of our country that in this day and age our young women have to resort to the internet for help.”
Yes, and It is an even worse indictment of our country that in this day and age that the best some so-called adults can offer our young women with a crisis pregnancy is the medieval solution of killing their babies.
.
Leave him…. hes been reading the american anti-choice leaflets they’ve been pushing through the door… If he wants to force his religious believes on others so be it but the idea it’s for the benefit of the tax payer or any rational reason other than ‘URRRGH… I am MAN, Women Do what I say’ is a delusion of the American evangelical Christian lobby.
I’d gladly agree to such deal. Btw your getting stuck with the child benefit cost which alone is 4X the cost of an abortion proceedure €2K, not to mention the cost to the tax payer of giving birth in a public hospital €3-5K…
” medieval solution of killing their babies.”
If you know anyone killing children, report them to the gardai. I’m not sure how that issue relates to this story though…
Yes fraj madevil is right a country that denies abortion is medevil
I thought the real issue here was that they are buying these pills online no?
Hard to report them to the gardai when you’re living in the states
@TheLoneHurler
Medical costs are shared across the board. There are people in hospital who smoke, drink, drive recklessly, cross the road without looking, come down with measles because they weren’t vaccinated… the list is endless. Many of these people have conditions that are self-inflicted. They are being treated using taxpayers’ money.
Are you going to start campaigning to have treatment withdrawn from them because they got lung cancer from smoking or liver cancer from drinking or lost their legs in a car accident because they were speeding?
My guess? No.
This is NOT a money issue. And even if it was, it would be a TINY droplet in the vast ocean of money that’s pumped into the HSE. This is a humanitarian issue. Women are humans. Abortion is part of the medical spectrum and sometimes it’s a necessary procedure for a woman to have.
I know you have a MASSIVE bee in your bonnet about this issue and I know from your comments on here previously about your history and why you’re so against abortion. That’s fine. You’re allowed to be. But don’t attempt to mask your own personal feelings about the issue by talking about taxpayers’ money.
@Fraj
“It is an even worse indictment of our country that in this day and age that the best some so-called adults can offer our young women with a crisis pregnancy is the medieval solution of killing their babies.”
Women of all ages, from their teens up to their 40s, choose abortion. Not all women with an unwanted pregnancy are vulnerable. Not all women with an unwanted pregnancy are at crisis levels. Women know their own minds.
The idea that women can be coerced into having an abortion when she doesn’t want one is pervasive but is hardly the norm. Are there some women who are talked into having an abortion by a persistent partner or family member? I’m sure there are. But most women make up their own minds.
This article deals with the fact that a woman so desperate to not be pregnant orders pills off a website, even when she knows it’s illegal. What we need to focus more on is why a woman would risk jail because she doesn’t want to be pregnant.
We can keep saying abortion is wrong. But abortion keeps happening. Even when it’s illegal. This is what Ireland, as a society, needs to focus on.
@florence nightingale
“We can keep saying abortion is wrong. But abortion keeps happening. Even when it’s illegal. This is what Ireland, as a society, needs to focus on.”
We can keep saying child abuse / rape / murder are wrong. But child abuse / rape / murder keep happening.
Should we therefore legalise them?
@Fraj
I’m not going to get into a debate about the difference between abortion and child abuse/rape/murder. And this refusal to deal with the reality of abortion is getting quite tiresome. It happens. Women find themselves in untenable situations and they make the choice. The law is on their side. The law is not on the side of child abusers, rapists and murderers.
Well said fraj
And there we have it. Abortion on demand for Any reason..
Why are people in Ireland so against women simply having the right to choose,the right to medical treatment and advice to determine the best outcome for her personal circumstances in a safe envoirment ???!STOP treating women like second class citizens.
Christina. I assume you don’t think it’s ok to murder a child when they’re outside the womb. So how come you think it’s ok to murder a child when it’s inside the womb.
The very definition of a loaded question. Equating abortion to murder is your opinion and right to do. Yet you ask the question as though it’s fact.
Murder is the intentionally killing of a person. Foetuses are NOT people. That is beyond dispute, because even if in Ireland they have legal protection, they lack the most basic thing needed to be considered a person: an identity. No more than the sperm and egg before fertilisation, they are not legally persons, even in Ireland.
The issue though is that at 39 weeks, the unborn is still considered a foetus. So where do we stand at an abortion at 39 weeks because its still technically a foetus and going on your comment that makes it ok.
That’s pseudo legal nonsense. Nowhere in Irish law will you find a definition of what a person is or isn’t. What you will find is a Constitution that recognises everybody’s right to live without a threat to them, be they born or unborn, and where unborn has an indefinite starting point. Seems like a pretty clear endorsement to me.
Ger, your statement is harsh. A foetus is the start of human life. if you were aborted as a foetus then you would not be here.
Abortion first needs to be defined….a foetus at 8 weeks is different to that of 20 weeks.
For all pro abortionists when do you believe a foetus can’t feel pain? do you believe an abortion is ok at 20 weeks?
Ger. So how do you define identy. Are you tell me a new born baby who birth hasn’t being registered with the births death and marriage office isn’t a person and by your logic then can be murder. Cop yourself on.
Why then, if you assault a pregnant woman and she miscarries as a result, are you not charged with murder? Or even manslaughter? I’ll tell you why, because Irish law does not consider a foetus to be a person.
“Foetus is not people”
Seriously
It is a living growing human,
Using terminology to describe the different stages of development does not take away from the fact it’s still a human with the same right to life as you & I
@Killian
“What you will find is a Constitution that recognises everybody’s right to live without a threat to them, be they born or unborn, and where unborn has an indefinite starting point.”
And yet the state allows the free travel of women to the UK to have abortions. No one is allowed to prevent her from leaving. No one is allowed to deny her access to the information she needs to make an informed and personal choice. If you attempted to block her travel to the UK, you would be arrested by the police, not the woman. She is LEGALLY entitled to travel to the UK.
So the government IS in support of women having abortions, just not in this country. A hypocrisy I find incredibly hard to swallow.
Allow women to make up their own minds. We’ve been doing it for a long time. We know how to make decisions. Trust us.
“You can also travel freely to take drugs in Amsterdam. Or travel to Syria to join ISIS, It doesn’t mean the government supports it.” Actually, many governments are taking steps to prevent the second one. These would be comparable situations the minute the Irish people vote in a referendum to ensure that there is constitutional protection of travelling to Amsterdam to do drugs, similar to the Thirteenth Amendment.
A zygote is no more a person than an acorn is a tree.
@Pontius
Mere semantics. In 1992, the people voted in favour of the right to travel and the right to information in a referendum. It is a legal fact. It’s in the constitution. The government supports it. Because they are bound by the will of the people.
Joyce
“From little acorns mighty oaks do grow”
If you dont have the ability to see the zygotes potential only its inconvenience, then its very sad.
“If you dont have the ability to see the zygotes potential only its inconvenience, then its very sad.” Yes, it’s almost as if women who have abortions feel that they’re unable to deal with pregnancy and childrearing. But forcing them to parent, that will definitely solve the problem!
Nick
I dont think any parent was ever “forced” to love their children
@ See My Vest
This s where acknowledging that women are sane and sensible human beings come in. How many women do you know that would remain pregnant for 39 weeks before they decide they don’t want to become a parent or would not want everything possible done to save the foetus as well as herself should a medical crisis occur?
Indeed, Sinead – plenty of parents go through life never loving their children. To say otherwise ignores the massive amount of child abuse which occurs. Perhaps if you had been abused as a child, you’d be a bit more reluctant to force a parent to give birth.
Nick
Oh great.. So abortion is the solution child abuse now is it?
I think ending the myths that you peddle (all parents love their children! Everyone wants to be a parent! No parent ever feels angry and resentful because they had children!) is a pretty important factor, yep.
Nick
I have never met a woman who didnt love her children with all her heart. There is no greater love in the world than a mothers love.
Parenthood isnt easy. Nothing in life worth doing is easy. There are stresses. Of course there are.
But to suggest that mothers dont love their children just says exactly what you think of motherhood and women.
Sinead, even if a parent loves his/her child, does not mean s(he) capable of showing that love. Just because you have not met them, does not mean there are not men and women out there who regret becoming parents, and not just when there are stresses. And, yes, I have met them, read their blogs etc
“I have never met a woman who didnt love her children with all her heart. There is no greater love in the world than a mothers love. ” That remark is naive and incredibly insensitive to every child who was beaten by their mother or whose mother looked the other way when they were raped or sexually abused. People like you are the reason that abuse gets ignored and overlooked, because you can’t fathom that every mother isn’t loving.
Forgive me for not believing you have the best understanding of reality.
Sinéad never met a woman that didn’t love her children- so it MUST be true in all situations.
Sinéad had an abortion and regretted it – so the same MUST be true of all women.
Hey Sinéad, remember the other day when you told people on a forum that I accused you of making up your abortion story. That wasn’t true, as you know. You can apologise if you wish, as I actually defended you when another poster made those accusations. You’re also welcome.
Nick..
Really? I said that all mothers love their children. I didnt say that all mothers were loving. We all know thats not the case. The fact is that some women are damaged and need help. Not to be pointed in the direction of the nearest abortion clinic.
A friend of mine was beaten by her mother many times during her childhood. She was an alcoholic. She gave up alcohol when my friend was in her teens and they didnt speak for a long time. But after counselling things are good now. Not perfect but my friend is happy and thats good. Are u telling me that mother doesnt love her daughter?
“People like me are the reason abuse gets ignored or overlooked”
What a vile thing to say.
What about that woman that killed her 2 year old only last week. Bet she really loved the poor young lad.
Sinéad, no apology for your unfounded accusations?
Aaron.. I wont comment on any particular case. But i think any woman that murders her child is full of hate and not love. How anyone could do that, i dont know. Its beyond sick.
That’s a no then. It takes an honest person to apologise for false accusations. Hardly surprising.
Can you tell me Ger the exact time that a foetus becomes a human. I would be interested to know.
I would imagine as soon as their existence is not contingent upon another person’s body to exist..
I mean, if a woman miscarries prior to 24 weeks there are no records kept save her medical ones. After 24 weeks, she is issued a birth and death cert for the baby. This is because at that stage, delivery could possibly result in a healthy baby.
At say, 16 weeks, if the woman goes into labour and delivers then that foetus cannot survive, even with all the medical intervention in the world, it hasn’t finished developing to a point where it is capable of being separate.
That’s what I would consider the cut off point, and if they develop a way to transplant unwanted pregnancies into pro life women’s wombs to stop the need for abortion I say bring it on.
Very sad that the women of Ireland have to resort to this because of those who put their own beliefs in front of Irish citizens welfare. There was some prolife spokesperson on primetime tonight disgusting.
What a pathetic bunch of misinformed and under educated bunch of people you lot are, the way I see it is if you are not Pro-Choice you are a misogynist and representing an very dark and dying part of Irish history. The fact that we even have to vote on this is disgusting and again a national embarrassment due to backwards politics that’s riddled with religion. Everyone is entitled to their opinion I just wonder why pro life people have to shove it down your throats
Wow wow wow
What a comment
Lucky not everyone thinks like you
The sad part is not everyone thinks like me. The Truth hurts but I guess that’s your issue not mine.
Bridget remove your head from your arse the vast majority of people r like that
There is no “case” common sense prevails
Richard I dont know about you but I physically wouldn’t be able to put my head up my a**
Again thankfully not everyone thinks like yours!
Let us know if you need some help there Brigid
Thankfully the majority do Bridget
Brilliant Deane
Brilliant Deaneomi
Meant to be Dwayne
@Dwayne Woods
What have you to say to someone who is completely pro-life, anti-abortion and atheist?
http://www.prolifehumanists.org/secular-case-against-abortion/
Third time’s the charm, Richard!
Also, to the topic at hand.
Of course you can be anti-choice while not being religious. Whatever you want to believe or not is your choice.
But the fact is, the reason Ireland is so backwards when it comes to reproductive health is the influence the church had. Bans on contraception, abortion etc. were all put in place because of the power the catholic church had.
” you can be anti-choice.. is your choice. ”
i lol’d at that Chris man.
Prolifers on comment threads, reinforce the need for abortion to be legal. Lol. Don’t like abortion don’t have one. Simples!
Sorry to be crass, but every month a potential life is lost in my toilet. lol! Every weekend a potential life is lost down some lads johnny. I mean if people are going to decided when a human is a human, maybe they should consider how far that concept goes……. the other direction. Might start wailing and having a mass in my bathroom every month.
Then maybe you will see how ridiculous you are being considering a zygote a human.
Expect paddy scully. Finbarr/linda zoe daly and marion to be along sonn
Normally you’d be right, but the precogs are recharging in the basement in Merrion Square http://thefilmexperience.net/storage/2000s/minority-precogs.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1339692794687
The truth what about stephen mcgelliot don’t leave him out
Jaysis Richard, how did i forget Stephen
We all try!!
Tayto – Tom, Dick and Harry can’t get pregnant, they’re men although admittedly Dick is usually involved. My comment is no more ridiculous than yours
Ah I remember that time when my doctor supervised every dose of antibiotic I took for fear I might put it up my nose or in my ear…. WTF was dr coulter smith taking about the wrong route? Does he think women are so stupid when it comes to our reproductive health that we can’t follow basic dosing instructions?
Killian does this zygote have a right to implant itself in someone’s womb? Would you consider it abortion to prevent it doing so?
When are those religious freaks who are still living in the stone age going to stop telling everyone else how to live their lives. If a woman doesn’t want to go through with a pregnancy then that is nobody else’s business, women should be able to go a clinic and get this procedure and any pther they choose without having religious nutters interfering.
Ireland needs to drag itself into the 21st century so women are no longer treated as second class citizens
How backward can a country be in 21st century Europe where women are prosecuted for the crime of having control of their own reproductive organs.
Those people who believe abortion is wrong need never have one but please do not interfere with others who do not share such medieval views.
Babies. 20 weeks etc. it’s the morning after pill there is no baby
1861 Offences Against the Person Act
Sections 58 & 59
Attempts to procure Abortion.
Administering drugs or using instruments to procure abortion.
58. Every woman, being with child, who, with intent to procure her own miscarriage, shall unlawfully administer to herself any poison or other noxious thing, or shall unlawfully use any instrument or other means whatsoever with the like intent, and whosoever, with intent to procure the miscarriage of any woman, whether she be or be not with child, shall unlawfully administer to her or cause to be taken by her any poison or other noxious thing, or shall unlawfully use any instrument or other means whatsoever with the like intent, shall be guilty of felony, and being convicted thereof shall be liable . . . to be kept in penal servitude for life . . .
Procuring drugs, &c. to cause abortion.
59. Whosoever shall unlawfully supply or procure any poison or other noxious thing, or any instrument or thing whatsoever, knowing that the same is intended to be unlawfully used or employed with intent to procure the miscarriage of any woman, whether she be or be not with child, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and being convicted thereof shall be liable . . . to be kept in penal servitude . . .
1861??? Christ, no wonder we’re so backwards.
The new law isn’t much better, it criminalises women to up to 14 years imprisonment. What’s ironic is that the old law was not enforceable whereas the protection of life during pregnancy act criminalises both the woman who procures the abortion and also anyone who aids her in doing so up to and it’s wording is vague enough to include any physician who does not report her if she presents with complications.
Why would you think that the 1861 Act is not still the law?
I imagine the protection of life during pregnancy act supersedes it.
Probably because life in penal servitude meant life in the workhouse..
The 1861 Act was and still is enforceable. Its just that we as a society choose not to do so. We turn a blind eye to illegality of the highest form. Why are the Gardai not prosecuting persons who import the abortion pills under the 1861 Act?
No it doesn’t.
The act is still the law. On conviction the convicted person would go to prison.
Paul are you living in a cave?
This is 2014 not the 1800′s
Probably because the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013 repealed sections 58 and 59 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861.
Penal servitude is defined as imprisonment with hard labour. There is no hard labour in our prison system anymore so the very clear sentence in the legislation cannot be imposed. A judge’s job is to uphold what is written in law, not change the sentence to the nearest possible alternative.
If you’re too lazy to even look at the provisions of the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act or keep up to date with the laws in relation to abortion here, then you really have no place making comments about what can and can’t happen to a woman who procures an abortion in Ireland.
Sorry Tomas, i didn’t realize that sections 58 and 59 had been repealed.
Are you sure about that? I don’t know. Maybe someone with legal training commenting could sort that one out.
Hi Tomas, there’s no need to be abusive.
Even though Im not a lawyer, I am a citizen and I am entitled to speak.
Also, the laws in relation to procuring an abortion do not only apply to women.
You’re right, Paul. It speaks volumes that if a couple together decide that the best option is to buy pills from women on web, the woman would be committing an offence but not her partner who just emotionally supports her and make the decision with her.
And you’ve pointed out the hypocrisy of the law quite well – very few people support prosecuting women who buy these pills, so any kind of penalties for women are unpopular and pointless.
Offering emotional support is not illegal but If the woman’s partner procured the pills, he or she would be liable to prosecution. In fact anyone who procures the pills with the intention of procuring an abortion is open to prosecution.
Why are these 60 cases not being prosecuted?
A law written by men to control women, hardly reflective of the views of society,.
Paul, as someone who has studied abortion law in Ireland in detail for the past 2 years and has written academic legal pieces on the topic of the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act, I can assure you that sections 58 and 59 of the 1861 Act were most definitely repealed by section 5 of the 2013 Act. In fact it quite explicitly repeals the sections, there’s no grey area about that. As for being abusive, well that’s not at all accurate. I haven’t been abusive. If you want to argue the legal side of abortion in Ireland at least do the very basic research and know what the law actually is at the moment (and has been since January 2014). People who wish to deny a woman her right to bodily autonomy need to at least be able to back up their arguments and shouldn’t just scream “abuse” when someone points out their clear ignorance in relation to the topic they wish to discuss.
“Why are these 60 cases not being prosecuted?” Because prosecutions would be completely condemned by 99% of Irish people and laws against abortion would be overturned in a week. Thus why not even Youth Defence supports these prosecutions.
Hi Tomas,
1. “Paul as someone who has studied abortion law in Ireland in detail for the past 2 years and has written academic legal pieces on the topic of the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act, I can assure you that sections 58 and 59 of the 1861 Act were most definitely repealed by section 5 of the 2013 Act.”
I already apologised to you for not knowing that sections 58 and 59 had been repealed and thanks again for pointing this out to me. We are not all legal scholars, but we are entitled to speak. Why did you feel it necessary to point this out again?
2. In fact it quite explicitly repeals the sections, there’s no grey area about that.
I don’t remember mentioning grey areas
3. As for being abusive, well that’s not at all accurate. I haven’t been abusive.
I would consider calling someone “lazy’ mildly abusive. Not exactly the end of the world stuff but not very friendly either.
4. If you want to argue the legal side of abortion in Ireland at least do the very basic research and know what the law actually is at the moment (and has been since January 2014).
Nobody argues with perfect knowledge. We learn as we go. Well I hope to anyway. You kindly informed of something I didn’t know today.
5. People who wish to deny a woman her right to bodily autonomy need to at least be able to back up their arguments and shouldn’t just scream “abuse” when someone points out their clear ignorance in relation to the topic they wish to discuss.
I don’t wish to deny a “woman her right to bodily autonomy”.
I don’t think I screamed abuse.
Our laws are written by democratically elected parliamentarians.
Hi Tomas,
1. “Paul as someone who has studied abortion law in Ireland in detail for the past 2 years and has written academic legal pieces on the topic of the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act, I can assure you that sections 58 and 59 of the 1861 Act were most definitely repealed by section 5 of the 2013 Act.”
I already apologised to you for not knowing that sections 58 and 59 had been repealed and thanks again for pointing this out to me. We are not all legal scholars, but we are entitled to speak. Why did you feel it necessary to point this out again?
2. In fact it quite explicitly repeals the sections, there’s no grey area about that.
I don’t remember mentioning grey areas
3. As for being abusive, well that’s not at all accurate. I haven’t been abusive.
I would consider calling someone “lazy’ mildly abusive. Not exactly the end of the world stuff but not very friendly either.
4. If you want to argue the legal side of abortion in Ireland at least do the very basic research and know what the law actually is at the moment (and has been since January 2014).
Nobody argues with perfect knowledge. We learn as we go. Well I hope to anyway. You kindly informed of something I didn’t know today.
5. People who wish to deny a woman her right to bodily autonomy need to at least be able to back up their arguments and shouldn’t just scream “abuse” when someone points out their clear ignorance in relation to the topic they wish to discuss.
I don’t wish to deny a “woman her right to bodily autonomy”.
I don’t think I screamed abuse.
Pro-Choice is taking the required steps to prevent an unwanted pregnancy e.g. Responsibility, ending an unwanted pregnancy is murder, ending an unwanted pregnancy from abuse or unjust causes is justice. If we can kill babies at will, how long before we start killing old people in nursing homes?
have your say