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Finally: Water committee close to a deal on the future of charges

The definition of water wastage has been defined as 1.7 times the average usage has been agreed by the committee.

THE ISSUE OF water has rumbled on for years – but this evening it is one step closer to resolution.

The 20-member Oireachtas Committee on the Future Funding of Domestic Water Services met in private today to hammer out some of the issues relating to water charges, refunds and metering.

Sources state the bones of the report by the committee has now been agreed.

It’s understood that after much back and forth about how to define excessive water usage, the definition of wastage as being 1.7 times the average usage has been agreed. This is 70% above average.

An excess usage levy will target the 8% of households (71,000 households) who are responsible for 32% of water usage.

Customers will get a notice in the post if they are above the threshold and they will have six months to correct the wastage.

Water meters 

Both Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael were at loggerheads over the water meter installation programme.

However, it’s understood that a deal has been struck which will effectively mean the end of the State roll-out of water meters for existing homes, something Fianna Fáil lobbied for.

The committee has agreed with Fine Gael’s submission that metering should still be carried out on all individual new builds and that apartments should be bulk-metered.

The future of Irish Water has been secured by the committee, with the organisation to continue as the national utility for water services in Ireland.

Throughout the negotiations, Fine Gael have been adamant that there must be compliance with the EU regulations.

Last month, the Minister for Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government Simon Coveney said he would not be able to agree with the committee’s recommendations if there was a conflict with the EU’s directive on water usage.

He also said he was not prepared to introduce legislation that ran contrary to the advice of the Attorney General. By ensuring that an excess usage charging mechanism will be in place to implement the ‘polluter pays principle’, the minister has managed to side-step the issue.

The committee met in private this afternoon to hammer out the last remaining details. It’s understood members will meet again next Tuesday when this final draft report will be approved.

Read: Irish Water guilty of sewage pollution at four plants across the country

Read: So many questions… what’s happening with water charges?

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A mix of advertising and supporting contributions helps keep paywalls away from valuable information like this article. Over 5,000 readers like you have already stepped up and support us with a monthly payment or a once-off donation.

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71 Comments
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    Mute Tom Burke
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    Mar 5th 2017, 9:42 PM

    It’s been alleged that the Journal run a disproportionate high number of Catholic Church and abortion stories, sometimes recycled 4 times a day.

    Is it possible FactCheck can check that one out and report back.

    Thanks

    329
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    Mute Kevin Higgins
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    Mar 5th 2017, 9:44 PM

    No. The claim you make is far too irrelevant to be worth a fact check. If you don’t like their reporting then go comment on another app.

    153
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    Mute sparky
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    Mar 5th 2017, 9:48 PM

    @ Tom Burke shouldn’t you be hanging your head in shame ..

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    Mute Les Behan
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    Mar 5th 2017, 10:10 PM

    @sparky: “shouldn’t you be hanging your head in shame”

    Tom doesn’t feel shame, he’s part of the Catholiban!

    54
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    Mute Soccer T's
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    Mar 5th 2017, 10:12 PM

    I can see why they publish so many if people react like this. Less rants less articles Tom

    21
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    Mute Suzie Sunshine
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    Mar 5th 2017, 10:53 PM

    Les .. are you saying that Catholics in this country don’t feel shame ?

    15
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    Mute Les Behan
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    Mar 5th 2017, 11:03 PM

    @Suzie Sunshine: Yes because if they did they wouldn’t be Catholics any longer. Instead they justify remaining part of this evil institution by a series of mental gymnastics, deflection and downright lying to themselves.

    49
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    Mute sparky
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    Mar 5th 2017, 11:09 PM

    @ Suzie sunshine..”are you saying catholics in this country don’t feel shame”.. how much more cover ups does one have to listen too, for the citizens of this country to recognise it’s just another “money making organisation”

    46
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    Mute Suzie Sunshine
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    Mar 5th 2017, 11:18 PM

    Sparky.. but that’s doesn’t answer the question I asked .

    10
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    Mute Les Behan
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    Mar 5th 2017, 11:31 PM

    @Suzie Sunshine: Case in point :

    “IRELAND’S “MASS GRAVE” HYSTERIA”
    http://www.catholicleague.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/IRELANDS-MASS-GRAVE-HYSTERIA.pdf

    23
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    Mute sparky
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    Mar 5th 2017, 11:43 PM

    @ Suzie the question you asked..if the catholics in Ireland were to actually really question what they believe..really question what the cult they believe in has done to this country I doubt it should have any creditably at all..but it’s a carry on regardless ponce.

    26
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    Mute Suzie Sunshine
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    Mar 6th 2017, 12:01 AM

    Les .. that does not prove that most Catholics are not hanging their heads in shame ..

    4
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    Mute Suzie Sunshine
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    Mar 6th 2017, 12:02 AM

    Sparky. . It still doesn’t prove yhsy

    4
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    Mute Les Behan
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    Mar 6th 2017, 12:10 AM

    @Suzie Sunshine: I know it doesn’t, I’ve already said that if they did feel shame they wouldn’t Catholic’s anymore. I just thought it was worth pointing what a Catholic of some influence thinks and it’s not really off the mark when you consider Tom Burke and likes comments over the last few days here.

    If you know something is evil and you still support it then obviously there is no shame.

    26
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    Mute Little Diddy No
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    Mar 6th 2017, 11:03 AM

    @Tom Burke: Fintan has a great article today busting the myths of the church as some great helper of people and provider of free education and healthcare to the masses – nothing could be further from the truth:
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/lessons-in-the-power-of-the-church-1.778683
    Let’s get them out of our state education system! Start with this: https://action.uplift.ie/campaigns/133

    19
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    Mute Watchful Axe
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    Mar 5th 2017, 9:51 PM

    I went to a De La Salle brothers school, there were Hindus and Muslims there. Not a bother on them skipping the religion class, (a handy hour to get the homework done) even though it was mostly secular discussion about social issues with some learning about Islam/Hinduism/Judaism/Buddhism. The catechism was done and dusted by confirmation.

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    Mute Emmet O'Keeffe
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    Mar 5th 2017, 9:58 PM

    @Watchful Axe:
    I went to a good Catholic school, there were travellers, Muslims, non nationals, women, a couple of Buddhists, two Jamaican Rastafarians, a couple of atheists who sneaked in under the radar and even a Sikh who was a lovely guy very popular in physics class.
    Like being at the United Nations.

    162
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    Mute sparky
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    Mar 5th 2017, 10:02 PM

    @ Emmet o’keeffe..why did the atheist s have to sneak in..was there any pastafarian students..

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    Mute Kevin Higgins
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    Mar 5th 2017, 10:10 PM

    Did you guys bother to read the fact check or do you prefer using anecdotal stories over impartial statistics?

    47
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    Mute Watchful Axe
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    Mar 5th 2017, 10:18 PM

    Did read it afterwards :-P. Only spotted it was referring to primary education then. There probably is a good case to take the catechism out of primary schools, it could be taught at the weekends no bother.

    25
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    Mute Sandra Duffy
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    Mar 5th 2017, 10:22 PM

    @Watchful Axe: when my son and I requested he stop attending religion class at age 16 we were told under no circumstances and that if that was what we wanted he should have gone to The Institute. Apparently atheists taxes are not allocated to public education. Who knew!

    72
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    Mute Tom Burke
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    Mar 5th 2017, 10:27 PM

    Sandra
    What happened? Did you stand your ground or give in?

    I hope you told them it’s your God given right to be an atheist and skip religion.

    31
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    Mute Kevin Higgins
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    Mar 5th 2017, 10:30 PM

    Tom god didn’t give me any right to decide my faith or lack thereof. I made my decision by myself.

    45
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    Mute lavbeer
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    Mar 5th 2017, 10:34 PM

    Religion is easy points for students imho

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    Mute Tom Burke
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    Mar 5th 2017, 10:42 PM

    Kevin.
    It was a joke.

    19
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    Mute Kevin Higgins
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    Mar 5th 2017, 10:43 PM

    Religion has been the single most used excuse for pain and suffering in this history of the human race, IMHO

    50
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    Mute Kevin Higgins
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    Mar 5th 2017, 10:52 PM

    Tom your whole social media account was created to comment on religious articles on the journal. You sir are the joke

    44
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    Mute Paul Fahey
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    Mar 6th 2017, 7:28 AM

    Emmet – which school did you attend and which years?

    12
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    Mute Little Diddy No
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    Mar 6th 2017, 10:46 AM

    @Watchful Axe: The reason there are people of different religions in schools that (the words of the church, not mine) have as their main aim the formation of the Catholic faith in children and young people is that there are no other schools for them to attend – the state has allowed the church to control the ethos of nearly 100% of our state, and fully state-funded, education system.

    I am on different forums of non-religious parents and their hearts are broken daily particularly at primary level, where faith formation is integrated across the entire curriculum and the entire school day. There is no escape from that.

    At secondary level, opting out of religious education (which you are wrong to say is talking about other religions – the church rejected the new state curriculum Education ABOUT Religions, Beliefs & Ethics, and the church just backed down – the RCC Religious Education curriculum at secondary level is Catholic faith formation and it literally says that on its cover. It is about forming the faith, and it briefly covers a few of the main other religions in one short section – but very much as Other.

    Another glaring injustice is that Catholic faith schools have for the most part not, as required by the department, implemented the state’s perfectly moral and sensitive Relationships & Sexuality Education curriculum. They either don’t teach it, or teach a purely Catholic dogma version often as part of Religious Education (ie faith formation) class. How is a non-religious young person to get access to that if they are ‘opted out’?

    This is not OK in our state education system. Nobody should be merely tolerated in our state education system, while having to get their education in a school whose whole ethos is that of one religion that is foreign to them. These are state funded and often built schools. The discrimination has been called out by learners themselves in every consultation, and by every children’s rights and human rights organisation both in Ireland and the UN.

    19
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    Mute Little Diddy No
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    Mar 6th 2017, 10:48 AM

    @Little Diddy No: Sorry, I meant to say that the church rejected the state’s new ERBE curriculum, and the STATE just backed down – such is the power of the church in our state services.

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    Mute Little Diddy No
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    Mar 6th 2017, 10:54 AM

    @Emmet O’Keeffe: You make it sound like the school was great and so tolerant to take in these young people. The fact is that these are all 100% state funded, staffed, maintained, and often built, schools – this is our state education system. The schools should have no right to turn away anybody – they are being funded to deliver our education system to all citizens.

    Sadly they are not being made to do this inclusively (as you would expect from other publicly-funded services like, for example, hospitals). The baptism barrier still remains – so if a school has enough Catholics who wish to attend they can put local non-baptised children or young people to the bottom of their list, even taking baptised children from anywhere else in the country ahead of them. If they are not popular, then of course they will take us – the fact is that they need the numbers – if they fall below a certain number the state will cut their funding.
    Fintan O’Toole has a great article about the truth about church and education today:
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/lessons-in-the-power-of-the-church-1.778683

    This grossly unfair baptism barrier has been criticised by human rights organisations and the government is now consulting on it – please please make a submission with this easy to complete template and have your say: https://action.uplift.ie/campaigns/133

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    Mute Suzie Sunshine
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    Mar 6th 2017, 12:41 PM

    Little Diddy No .. I don’t think you have actually spent any time in a school because some of the things you are saying just doesn’t happen in the school . Outside of religion class where is faith formation integrated cross the whole day ? Regarding sex ed class which they do . All children do this and it has absolutely nothing to do with religion .it’s separate and not part of religion class .

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    Mute Ian Phillip Creaner
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    Mar 6th 2017, 4:57 PM

    Only in it brainwashed head Tom.

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    Mute Peter Buchanan
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    Mar 6th 2017, 6:57 AM

    I would prefer my children to be taught in a Catholic school than in a school with little or no moral guidance other than that supplied by ASTI or TUI.

    102
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    Mute Paul Fahey
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    Mar 6th 2017, 7:37 AM

    Peter – no moral guidance? Moral guidance should start and finish at home and why would you take moral guidance from the organisation that rapes children, sells children, murders children, opposes homosexuality, dumps children in a shitpit, oppresses women etc etc etc…..

    119
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    Mute Tom Burke
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    Mar 6th 2017, 9:02 AM

    Completely agree Peter.
    The Catholic schools also do the best academically. It’s the same in the uk where people are renting a house for 6 months, in a catchment area,just to get their kid into the Catholic school.

    That’s just a fact.

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    Mute Paul Fahey
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    Mar 6th 2017, 10:26 AM

    Tom – but they are not are they. In the U.K. The leading schools are nearly all private schools in the U.K. In Ireland 96% of schools are religious, but it is the Gaelscoils that largely outperform the others, but let’s not let facts get in the way of your lies, which have been corrected in many occasions.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/education-39076204

    In Ireland only 5 non fee paying schools featured in the Top 25, and three of those 5 were Gaelscoil. So it seems money and access to a private education are what matters.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/league-tables-a-reminder-of-inequality-in-irish-society-1.2893807

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    Mute Tom Burke
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    Mar 6th 2017, 10:58 AM

    Most gaelscoil are also catholic schools. Be careful of confirmation bias.

    I stand by my assertion that in the uk catholic schools do best. Don’t stop at the top 20 schools. Average it nationwide and you’ll see.

    The parents know. That’s why they do anything to get into the Catholic school.

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    Mute Gulliver Foyle
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    Mar 24th 2017, 12:14 PM

    @Peter Buchanan: Peter, out of interest the mandatory religion for schools is a problem with primary schools (secondary schools don’t have a constitutional problem, only a political one where VEC schools are literally handed over to religious groups with no consultation), so ASTI and TUI are not the problem. The INTO, on the other hand are having leadership elections at the moment with just two candidates; a stanchly catholic (and incidentaly one of the highest paid in the country) primary principal against a DEIS school representative. Teaching unions objectives (based on both these candidates literature) is to increase pay and reduction of hours of primary teachers – the question of religion, and their teaching being dictated by an unelected “ethos supplied” chairman in their schools is irrelevant.

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    Mute Nial D
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    Mar 24th 2017, 2:51 PM

    @Peter Buchanan: Moral guidance? So you need religion to decide what is right and what is wrong in life? What an utterly idiotic statement. I don’t believe in fairy tales, most intelligent people don’t. But not once did
    I need the threat of eternal damnation hanging over me to be a decent person in life.

    16
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    Mute Emmet O'Keeffe
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    Mar 5th 2017, 9:44 PM

    This isn’t a proper FactCheck.
    It’s a Jesuitical exercise in hair splitting.

    48
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    Mute Kevin Higgins
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    Mar 5th 2017, 9:46 PM

    I’ll subscribe to yourself Emmet if you do a better fact check than this one. I won’t hold my breath however

    53
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    Mute David McDermott
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    Mar 24th 2017, 11:07 AM

    This crap annoys me. Catholic schools have most diversity. Yes all good however you make up 92% of the schools. Of course you’re going to be most diverse. Completely twisting reality to claim praise for something when you can’t be legitimately compared to other option due to your monopoly. Plus to further go to cherry pick what they deem to be under the umbrella of “diversity” by excluding ethnic and migrants and disabled diversity. This claim should be labelled misleading deceptive gerrymandering. By leaving out most of the diversity criteria I don’t see how their language play makes their claim mostly true.

    65
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    Mute Lorna Roe
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    Mar 24th 2017, 2:12 PM

    @David McDermott: I agree. Fact check failed to take account of the distribution of each of these “diversities” across each type of school.

    17
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    Mute Adrian
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    Mar 5th 2017, 9:58 PM

    This debate is pure and utter bull s##t school are packed to capacity locals get first dibs and after that it’s first come first serve! And of course there will be more of the traveling community in Catholic schools Traveler’s are good practicing Catholics #=/&€#@#= sorry can stop laughing writing this comment! Y’all keep the faith ✊✊

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    Mute Reg
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    Mar 5th 2017, 10:45 PM

    It made me laugh wgen Steen tried to use travellers as an example of increased diversity in catholic schools and nobody picked her up on during the programe.

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    Mute Little Diddy No
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    Mar 6th 2017, 10:55 AM

    @Adrian: Of course the Travelling community tends to be very Catholic! Ridiculous to use that as an argument. And when there is no real alternative choice, to say that Catholic schools have everybody in them is like, d’uh!

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    Mute Little Diddy No
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    Mar 6th 2017, 10:56 AM
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    Mute Paul
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    Mar 6th 2017, 11:19 AM

    My problem isn’t with yhe amount of pupils who are or aren’t Catholic, it’s the curriculum that involves pushing catholicism on its pupils regularly and taking up class time that could be better used on a different subject.

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    Mute Eimhin Walsh
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    Mar 24th 2017, 1:28 PM

    Very disappointing to see The Journal give in to Steen/Iona on this. It is a basic rule of statistics that one cannot simplistically compare apples and oranges. There are 81 Educate Together primary schools in various locations with different socio-economic profiles. There are 2,884 Roman Catholic primary schools, one in pretty much every neighbourhood in Ireland. Obviously they will mirror the social profile of each area. Rather than saying the claims are ‘mostly true’ or ‘mostly false’ you should state the obvious: the comparison is fallacious.

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    Mute
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    Mar 12th 2017, 12:56 PM

    The expression faith formation comes up in this a lot. It is not faith formation the Church does – it is doctrine formation. You don’t have to agree with Christ or Catholicism to have faith. Faith formation is just about manipulating people to follow man-made religion.

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    Mute Seán J. Troy
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    Mar 24th 2017, 11:15 AM

    Since when in statistics can you reliably compare two data sets where one is dozens of times larger?

    19
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    Mute Simon White
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    Mar 24th 2017, 11:44 AM

    Agree with Sean completely. Also, the data-sets are inherently biased: the different populations being examined (divided into the various socio-economic, ethnic, religious, disability groups) do not have equal access to all the different types of schools. The numbers and percentages may be accurate, the problem is how they are used to support an argument.

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    Mute lavbeer
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    Mar 5th 2017, 10:45 PM

    Why wasn’t the ET CEO chap on the panel? Surely that would have been better for a debate?

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    Mute Little Diddy No
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    Mar 6th 2017, 11:07 AM

    @lavbeer: Why have ET or anybody actually involved in education when you can have the Iona bots?

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    Mute lavbeer
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    Mar 6th 2017, 11:52 AM

    Now that is just plain stupid Diddy. You need debate. The ET man was obviously brought to provide commentary but not on the panel. If it was other way around you would have a different view. That’s just my objective point of view

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    Mute MuckyMoo
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    Mar 24th 2017, 11:07 AM

    Fat check this but don’t bother fact checking Halawa. Now I get the fake news thing

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    Mute Mark Gearey
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    Mar 24th 2017, 11:51 AM

    @MuckyMoo: I just fact checked Halawa. Yes he’s real. Yes he’s Irish. Yes he has been locked up in Egypt for years without trial. What else ya wanna know?

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    Mute MuckyMoo
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    Mar 24th 2017, 12:44 PM

    @Mark Gearey: You clearly didn’t fact check lol

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    Mute Tommy
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    Mar 24th 2017, 2:50 PM

    Kudos to the Journal for updating the article and highlighting the FACT that Maria Steen was IN FACT proved RIGHT on this occasion.

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    Mute Fiona Fitzgerald
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    Mar 24th 2017, 10:06 PM

    @Tommy: Being in a majority isn’t the same as being right. Ask any of the children who were locked up in ‘schools’ and used as slaves in Catholic Laundries.

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    Mute Tom Burke
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    Mar 6th 2017, 1:48 PM

    I believe 84% of the Irish population describe themselves as Catholics.
    Therefore having 90% under the Catholic Church seems about right.
    Perhaps they could divest 5% of them.

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    Mute Augustine Castle
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    Mar 6th 2017, 4:39 PM

    @Tom Burke: Well to be fair, I think there are a good chunk of those Irish people who describe themselves as Catholics who would prefer non-denominational/non-religious schools.

    There does seem to be a tendency among some segments of the general Irish population to agree with divestment – just not for their local school.

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    Mute Mark Gearey
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    Mar 24th 2017, 11:54 AM

    @Tom Burke: I dont care if the population is 110 per cent catholic. Get religion out of our schools.

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    Mute Talleyrand Frye
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    Mar 24th 2017, 1:11 PM

    This is exactly what I said at the time, as well as a number of other commentators. But now these comments seem to be missing from the page now.

    The problem is that this undermines the integrity of the Journal’s fact check. It wasn’t as if the “mostly false” claim was based on information that now turns out to have been incorrect, or ambiguous information that could be interpreted either way. The journalist deliberately set out to find the claim “mostly false” because that suited his own views. Dan MacGuill shouldn’t be allowed write another fact check.

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    Mute Mark Gearey
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    Mar 24th 2017, 11:35 AM

    Catholic schools are more everything than other schools since they are almost the only schools we have. To compare we’d need a lot more alternative schools for it to be meaningful. Also religion is mind rot.

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    Mute Matt Connolly
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    Mar 24th 2017, 1:32 PM

    And what action will be taken to ensure that this does not happen again?

    Seriously, you have positioned yourself as a “news” outlet – yet seem unable to verify facts. Whatever about religion in schools, personal opinion or desire for a particular outcome has absolutely NO place in news reporting.

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    Mute Robert Rusk
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    Mar 24th 2017, 1:30 PM

    So Maria Steen gets to dictate what the word “diversity” means now? This is a jesuitical sleight of hand. In fairness she does qualify her definition in the same breath but it is a curated definition of the term and used in this way is dishonest.

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    Mute Jlocoroco
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    Mar 24th 2017, 10:52 AM

    Maybe I’m wrong but don’t all the graphs point to this all being false and not mostly true

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    Mute Greg Blake
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    Mar 24th 2017, 12:39 PM

    That was a grudging acknowledgement. Go figure. As an undecided, I would appreciate some honesty in the debates.

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    Mute Alan Whelan
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    Mar 24th 2017, 2:36 PM

    I have followed this discussion and based on my own research I was totally convinced that Maria Steen was correct in all her assertions. I was sad that Fact Check seemed to be promoting Fake News.

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    Mute Tony Le Blanc
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    Mar 24th 2017, 3:25 PM

    “Christian think-tank”? I love it! ‘Of the c. 4,200 recognised religions on earth we think that ours is the only correct one because we were born into it’ Such spectacular nonsense.

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    Mute Stephen Doors
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    Mar 24th 2017, 4:32 PM

    Maria Steen is gorgeous. Don’t agree with many of her positions but she truly is a beautiful woman.

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    Mute Moorooka Mick
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    Mar 24th 2017, 11:25 PM

    We shouldn’t have Catholic schools; just State Schools with voluntary after hours religious doctrine insuruction. The taxpayer pays for Catholic education on top of school property rent for the Church.

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    Mute Ben Hemmens
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    Mar 25th 2017, 10:16 PM

    This is true but a trivial observation in a system where 90% of the schools are RC. Obviously less well-off ppl have the least leeway to choose where they will send their kids and for almost everyone the nearest schools, or the only ones within reach, are run by the RC church.

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    Mute Garreth Byrne
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    Mar 24th 2017, 1:23 PM

    In the Dublin area and in other big town places, a lot of asylum seekers and New Irish from Africa, the Middle East and elsewhere have been placed or settled. Some of these areas are lower middle class and low-income class areas. The main pressure for primary school places has been there, not in comfortable-class South Dublin. In the regions and provinces, members of the traveller families have tended to seek school places and, in some areas, social workers and others have brought traveller children to places with washing and dressing facilities so they could get dressed and ready before being dropped by minibus to their schools. Members of voluntary organisations like St. Vincent de Paul give discreet socio-economic support to immigrant, New Irish and traveller families to help the happy schooling of children. There is a social class and social pressure aspect to the school intake question that I think is being passed over in much public writing about the Catholic school conundrum.

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