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IRELAND HAS BECOME the first country in the world to pass a referendum on same-sex marriage with voters overwhelmingly backing the constitutional amendment by 62 to 38 per cent.
But how did we get here?
It’s been a long and gruelling campaign that was more civilised than some feared but was not without its moments.
Though polls consistently indicated the referendum would pass that did not stop a relentless campaign on both sides of the argument. It also started the sort of national conversation we’ve not had in this country for some time.
But why did the people say Yes to same-sex marriage? TheJournal.ie has compiled a few reasons…
1. The Yes side knew it couldn’t be complacent
From the beginning of the year there was a realisation among all those campaigning for Yes that complacency represented their biggest threat. Polls in recent years had repeatedly shown strong support for same-sex marriage, but the referendum result could not be taken for granted.
In February, Equality Minister Áodhán Ó Ríordáin admitted there had been complacency and urged the Yes side to think about how it would feel if the referendum fell:
2. Yes Equality
This determination to see the referendum pass resulted in an excellent ground campaign by some, but not all, of the political parties and, particularly, the Yes Equality group. This national civic society organisation put a huge amount of work into campaigning all over the country, with those Yes badges just one of the many successful elements of its campaign.
Politicians from all parties were hugely appreciative of the work put in by Yes Equality and several we spoke to said the referendum could not have been won without the organisation. Joan Burton reserved special praise for the group in her speech last night:
A rainbow movement to help create a rainbow nation. So I want to thank Yes Equality, whose life-affirming campaign inspired so many to get involved. Just look at what you have achieved.
3. The increase in registrations - and the youth vote
As part of its work, Yes Equality helped secure the addition of around 68,000 people to the supplementary electoral register in advance of the referendum. Many of these were young voters who had never before participated in the democratic process, but were particularly energised by the issue before them.
Why? Quite simply because their friends were gay and it was an issue that directly impacted them.
4. Fine Gael came out strongly…
There was no commitment on same-sex marriage in the Fine Gael 2011 election manifesto. It’s not unkind to say that the senior coalition party did not share the enthusiasm of its junior partner, Labour, prior to the referendum. We also heard lots of stories of rural Fine Gael TDs being reluctant to raise the issue on the doorsteps or just going missing altogether on the campaign trail.
But Fine Gael put forward some extremely effective spokespeople on this issue once the campaign started. Its director of elections, Simon Coveney, was honest enough to admit he’d changed his mind on the issue and his Prime Time appearance got people talking.
Jerry Buttimer, who was the party’s first openly gay TD, always spoke passionately on the subject:
Then of course there was Leo Varadkar. The Health Minister went public about his sexuality in January and drew widespread praise.
He was initially reluctant to get involved in the referendum campaign, but towards the end he admitted that losing the referendum would be worse than losing his seat.
By the end, he was pretty emotional:
https://vine.co/v/eq6qeAYMxeL
5. … and so did Enda Kenny
The Taoiseach has come on an extraordinary journey with this issue. The man who often reminded voters he grew up in 1950s conservative Ireland was tripping over flower pots to avoid questions on this issue not so long ago.
As recently as December 2013, TheJournal.ie asked him whether he shared Eamon Gilmore’s view that same-sex marriage was the “civil rights issue of this generation”. His response was cagey and evasive and he pivoted back to his favourite subject, jobs.
A year later, he pledged to campaign strongly for a Yes vote having paid a visit to Panti Bar last December. But it was his speech to the Fine Gael conference in Mayo in February which really underlined the journey the Taoiseach had made.
https://vine.co/v/OQhthVJI2ib
Since then he repeatedly came out to bat for the Yes side – although he refused to do a TV debate – and by the end of the campaign he had to go as far as to reject suggestions he was on the verge of becoming “a gay icon”.
TheJournal Politics / TwitterKenny: I have no intention of becoming a gay icon (in fairness, it was in response to a direct question) #marref
— TheJournal Politics (@TJ_Politics) May 20, 2015
6. There was a lack of political support for No…
Just a handful of Oireachtas members publicly confirmed they were voting No and all of the main political parties campaigned for a Yes vote. As much as people may dislike politicians there’s no doubt that they hold sway when it comes to influencing public opinion primarily because they dominate the airwaves during referendums.
Those silent party-affiliated TDs who declined to express a view may well have voted No, but they were not shouting it from the rooftops. Only Rónán Mullen, Mattie McGrath and Fidelma Healy-Eames were prepared to repeatedly argue in the media for the referendum to be rejected.
Others, like Michael Healy-Rae, confirmed they were voting No, but just wouldn’t get into the reasons why.
7. … and the ‘sky will fall in’ argument didn’t gain traction
Other prominent campaigners on the No side – Mothers and Fathers Matter, the Iona Institute and fringe groups like ‘Lawyers for No’ and ‘Teachers for No’ – repeatedly warned of the impact the passage of the referendum would have on children.
The adoption and surrogacy issues were never far from the debate either. The broad message of the No side was that there could be huge, unintended and appalling consequences if same-sex marriage was brought in. This is sometimes known as the ‘sky will fall in’ argument.
But we’ve been here before. Similar arguments were made in the divorce referendum in 1995 and when civil partnerships were being legalised five years ago. In both cases the dire warnings from those opposed didn’t come to pass.
Fathers have not, en masse, upped sticks and left their children without a daddy, as anti-divorce campaigners warned. Similarly, civil partnerships have become a normal feature of Irish life.
8. The Daniel O’Donnell effect
Dozens of Irish and foreign celebrities called for a Yes vote on Friday but none of them were perhaps as important as Daniel O’Donnell. In an interview with Ray D’Arcy a week before the referendum, he said: ”I think everyone should be equal. I can’t see what a Yes vote is going to do against anybody.”
As we all know, the Donegal crooner holds a special place in the hearts and minds of a lot of older people in this country and they would, pollsters told us, have been more likely to vote No. But O’Donnell’s endorsement of a Yes may well have swung more than a few of them to a Yes.
Broadly, there was a huge cross-section of celebs from of all ages and background who came out for a Yes vote and that didn’t do the campaign any harm at all.
Call off parades in the North full stop.
Exactly
At this stage its not political its not heritage its hatred.
Fine to say that as a one sentence solution but in reality, everyone from the orange order to the boys scouts and classic car rally’s, gay pride and the lord mayors parade all count as a parade and need to notify the parades commission so you would need to ban specific organisations from parades which in a free democratic society wouldn’t work, or be legal.
Correct, ban all the bleeding marches, all these people are just trying to provoke republicans and unionists alike. Jesus half of them would not know the history of Ireland if it smack them in the mouth, they are all a bunch of bleeding trouble makers.
Fair point JJ but I meant a political / subversive / senseless parade obviously
Fair point JJ but I meant my comment regarding political / senseless / subversives parades that doesn’t achieve anything only unrest. It makes me cringe when I see both sides carrying themselves in this way and shudder to think how the outside world views Ireland as a whole.
Surely the “commemoration” of dead terrorists could be counted as an assembly to incite hatred and dealt with under that banner?
All sectarian parades shouod be outlawed.
I agree Alan but surely you can see the hypocrisy in the Loyalist marches only being re-directed and this one and outright call for the parade to be banned, I don’t recall DeVilliers name being mentioned for the Loyalist marches to be abandoned in July. I don’t agree with much of what Sinn Fein have to say about anything but they’re right on this one, if the Loyalists are allowed march despite the insensitivities of their marches but the Republicans aren’t then surely that’s a clear a sign as possible that there is actually a two tiered system in the north.
Then maybe the republicans should lead by example?
Now there’s a thought.
By tolerating loyalist marches through Castlederg? They already have done so. Nineteen times this year alone. Twenty, by this time next week. Loyalists haven’t followed the example though have they, by protesting against the only nationalist parade in the town in years.
Conan this isnt loyalists that are protesting, its IRA victims from the Castlederg area. The Derg Valley victims group will be holding a peaceful protest against this parade on Sunday.
Sinn Féin have led by example by re-routing the parade to stay away from the diamond area of Castlederg and so to avoid the methodist church and British centotaph in the town,however the Apprentice boys have been given unrestricted access to march through Castlederg town centre(a 62% nationalist town).The same Diamond area which Sinn Fein have re routed their parade away from has now been allocated to loyalist protestors. Sinn Fein are leading by example but they refuse to be walked all over.
The Orange Order holds 20 marches through Castlederg town centre each year without fail and loyalists throw the rattle out of the pram when republicans want to hold a single parade.
She is not asking for the parade to be banned, she is asking the organisers to call it off.
You can hardly compare Loyalist marches to a march commemorating dead terrorists who blew themselves up. The latter is an insult to the peace process and the families of dead IRA victims.
SF are incapable of leading by example. They are supporting and promoting a commemoration of the death of murdering terrorists, while spouting crap about the “peace process”. Please don’t mention them in the same breath as people who give leadership
So it’s ok for unionist marches to commemorate massacres etc etc, once they don’t go through Catholic areas but republican marches should be stopped outright? Ban marches altogether or keep them but at least show some equal treatment
Ban all the marches. They’re all as bad as each other.
Agreed. Ban these childish marches altogether.
Both sides are like little schoolboys with their tit for tat antics. Time to end the whole lot now. History is one thing, but their provocation with their marches just isn’t on. Does this country need another generation of bigots.
Trevor, the old “both sides are as bad as eachother” statement is a lazy and groundless generalisation. Castlederg is a mainly nationalist town yet this will be the first nationalist parade in it in YEARS. So far this year though, loyalists have held NINETEEN ‘kick the Pope’ parades through it, and yet nationalists in the town tolerated them all.
Conan, I take your point and see exactly where you come from. What I’m saying is that history seems to have nothing to do with these marches, its just another excuse to stir up tensions with the other side. It’s a case of one step forward and two back.
Trevor, history has everything to do with The Tyrone Volunteers day march. It happens ONCE a year in different areas across the county. The reason it is in CAstlederg is because it’s the 40th Anniversary of an event in history related to the area. If republicans were only interested in stirring up tensions, why is this the first nationalist parade in the town since the mid 1990′s? Why do they not stir up the tension by protesting ANY of the HUNDREDS of loyalist parades in the town since the last nationalist one took place? Why did they voluntarily re-route this parade away from areas where unionists object to it passing, without being told to re-route it?
Conan, can you please explain how you can compare a celebration of terrorists who blew themselves up while preparing to murder innocent people to a rather silly but innocent celebration of the culture of one side of the community in the North?
I disagree with you Gráinne that the Loyalist parades are a silly celebration of culture; I think that objectively speaking they are usually bigoted incitements of hatred against the other.
However, I totally agree with you that it is ludicrous that Sinn Féin are supporting a parade to celebrate would-be bombing murderers, through the town where they tried to cause the deaths of so many innocent people. What exactly are they celebrating Conan?
Well, James, I do agree they are usually bigoted, but I’m not sure about “incitement to hatred”. I think these guys are just so caught up in their pathetic little fantasies about the past that they don’t even see how offensive they are being.
And no matter how bigoted or offensive they are, they’re not celebrating the deaths of terrorists and thumbing their noses in the faces of the people of Castlederg.
What I just don’t get is why SF is getting behind this. They have spend the past few years trying to tell us they’ve left all that behind and now they tear away the façade and show their true colours. Not that I thought they were anything other than unrepentant terrorist supporters anyway, but this leaves no room for doubt, so their credibility as a modern political party is gone out the window.
I have to say, I’m delighted to have been proved right. Next time a Shinner has the gall to knock on my door, I have something concrete to face him with.
Hi Gráinne, I agree that they are obsessed with past grudges. This article led me conclude that many of their celebrations of “culture” are in fact incitements to hatred:
http://sluggerotoole.com/2013/07/15/grieving-for-a-lost-supremacism/
They weren’t even any good as terrorists, blew themselves up, and now they are having a parade for them, parade me hole.
Call off all these bloody parades,
If the reason for the parade is:
:The march commemorates two IRA men who were killed in a bomb they were planting in Castlederg in 1973″
Then without a doubt it should be called off,
Basically they want to have a parade because two f*cken idiots managed to kill themselves planting a device that was designed to likely kill or injur other people. What sort of idiotic organization has a parade over that?
What the heck is wrong with these people?
His name is Barry. Not brain.
Conan, I wonder would you have written such abuse if you had had a relative injured by one of these noble patriotic bombs?
Paul, you know nothing of me or my background. I’ve lived through enough to have made up my own mind. Ironically, despite having lived through it, I’m being sanctimoniously preached to by countless free staters who have probably never set foot across the border, let alone lived through years of abuse from the ruc and british forces.
I hear they’ll be displaying the citation from the Darwin Awards Cttee.
Any parade in the north, be it republican or unionist, is just a tool for inciting hatred and sectarianism. While kids in the north are brought up going to parades that commemorate massacres, terrorism and murders, nothing will ever change. Villiers is probably right, but if she’s going to condemn a republican parade then she should be condemning them all.
That’s what the Parades Commission is there for, to decide which marches can go ahead and which can’t, it not for politicians with there own agendas to decide.
So they want to have a parade to commenerate two lads who died planting a bomb to kill other people. Bloody ridiculous. These parades just turn into an excuse for thugs to run a muck. Most of the time. Imagine the money and resources been wasted policing these parades.
Michael Collins not only tried to, but actually DID kill other people. Are you opposed to remembering him? Are you opposed to remembering the Easter Rising bevause the Volunteers were trying to kill people?
People are opposed to an IRA bomb that would kill innocent people as opposed to an IRA ambush against soldiers who would kill innocent people. Thats the difference between how Michael Collins is perceived and how these guys are perceived.
And the IRA didn’t target “soldiers who would kill innocent people”? These two Volunteers regularly engaged British forces. These British Forces massacred 14 civil rights protesters only 19 months earlier. As for Collins, most of those who died in Easter 1916 were civilians. There were hundreds. Collins and his men regularly shot unarmed men. So you are missing the point and missing it in some style.
I’d say Michael Collins would be turning in his grave if he heard you comparing him to these idiots.
Avoiding my specific points a tad there Gavin?
As a matter of fact Michael Collins sent men to kill my grandfather (a home ruler) — a witness appeared on the scene so they didn’t go through with it. Collins is widely recognised as a highly capable guerilla leader and influenced British Intelligence methods.
There is now a well-established state founded on the 1916 and subsequent struggles, so of course there are commemorations, but note that recently the Southern government has taken the mature step of recognising Ireland’s World War casualties as well.To take another example of an individual, Churchill, a great British leader, had a very mixed record in terms of casualties when critical hindsight is employed, and despite his wartime role his politics were rejected by the British in the post-war election.These are historical realities.
In this particular case, the North is under a peace agreement whose spirit is to avoid any provocation, so parades of this kind by either side are an indulgence — what positive contribution do they make to peace? Republicans are missing a chance to take the moral high ground. I suggest that the large vote for the Good Friday Agreement indicated that most people on the island would like to see peace and development placed before the endless cycle of commemoration and recrimination.As the march in question looks like going ahead, it will be interesting to see the content of any speeches made.
they are not idiots, they were young men who grew up with a completely life experience to most of the people commenting negatively about them. had michael collins been born in tyrone and not west cork you can bet he would have seen this as a natural continuation of the war of independence. if the brits want to ban this one then ban them all otherwise let the volunteers families have their comemoration, it wont be marching down any loyalist street.
Michael Collins didn’t plant bombs to kill innocent civilians. These morons were terrorists, and you are a terrorist supporter.
Conan, Michael Collins did not plant bombs in shops and cars and blow up innocent civilians. He lead a guerrilla campaign against the British and targeted their personnel.
You need to learn some history, man.
Brian, given Michael Collins’ track record, I find it very hard to believe he would have supported a campaign of terror against the civilian population of any part of Ireland. He didn’t engage in it when he was alive.
You throw out Collins’ name but you clearly know very little about the man.
I’m a republican and would love to see a united Ireland. But will a parade help? Not a chance. All they do is drive a further wedge between two groups of people with differences. I couldn’t care less if the march is through the halls Sinn Fein headquarters, it’s an embarassment. Conan you mentioned 19 kick the pope parades, you really want the republican movement to be associated with baton twirling and drum beating on the streeets? Let those g****ites be linked to that. Ban every poxy parade linked with sectarianism, it’ll soon be forgotten as an embarrassing part of Irish history.
Im mentioning parades in the same town. I’m not the one linking the parades. One is a dignified commemoration of two Volunteers, supported by the community in the town, the nineteen loyalist hate parades (20 by this time next week) are unwantes yet have always been unopposed in this Nationalist town. Attempts to equate the two are fanciful.
Eoin, as someone who would be a Unionist sympathiser, I couldn’t agree more with your comment.
Conan, you seem to be saying “I hate sectarian marches, but ours is OK” and herein lies the problem. Until both sides learn to respect each other, or more importantly learn they’re just as bad as each other, nothing will change.
There’s no denying that this is a commemoration of 2 terrorists who died planting a bomb which was intended to kill people.
Some may see them as Martyrs in the same light as Michael Collins etc. but I think you have to paper over a lot of cracks to make the connection.
Some of the unionist parades at least pretend to commemorate some historical battle victory while actually turning each one into a riot and letting the raw hatred show.
But surely the Shinnners could dress it up a bit?
The incident this parade refers to is in the living memory of people who will see it and as such is in bad taste.
No doubt there were horrible acts in the battle of the Boyne but that was a long time ago so we can romanticise it.
Imagine there being a parade in New York to commemorate the terrorist pilots who flew the planes into the twin towers? That wouldn’t happen.
A parade to commemorate those killed by unionists would be one thing but to commemorate 2 terrorists is just deliberately provocative.
Conan what were the 19 unionist parades celebrating exactly?
This isn’t a sectarian parade Alan. It had absolutely nothing to do with religion. It is a commemoration of men who gave their lives for Irish freedom.
It’s a celebration of men who couldn’t tell the time on a clock.
“Irish Freedom”? That’s such a catch all cliche. They were going to murder people in aid of their “cause” and killed themselves in the process. They are not “freedom fighters” or “soldiers” but terrorists who came to the same end they had planned for their victims. Apart from the loss to their families, this shouldn’t be celebrated or commemorated.
I’ve been free all my life they didn’t do anything in my name. They were cowards on their way to murder the innocent. Btw I think both sides engaged in this crap are as bad as each other.
Here we go again. “both sides as bad as eachother” claptrap. Only 19 months before their deaths, the British Army massacred 14 young people in Derry who had the cheek to take part in a protest calling for Catholics to have equal rights. Another little history lesson….the first british soldier killed (Hugh McCabe in 1969) was killed by the RUC, and that the first RUC officer to be killed (Constable William Arbuckle) was killed by loyalists, and that the first sectarian killings (of John Scullion and Peter Ward) were carried out by the UVF; and that the first bombings (in 1969) were carried out by loyalists and that the first of almost a thousand state killings (of Sammy Devenney, in front of his family; and of nine-year-old Patrick Rooney) were carried out by the RUC. The biggest population shift in Europe since the Second World War was of Catholics fleeing across the border for safety in the wake of the sectarian pogroms. And you judge those who stood up and decided to fight back? They had more dignity that you ever will.
Conan, you’re a certifiable loony!
Fight back against the killing of innocents by killing more innocents?
Very noble.
Even though he provided you with cold hard facts, he’s a looney?
A certifiably loony? Instead of resorting to nothing but personal insults, how about you tell me which specific parts of my post above are factually incorrect. I look forward to hearing it.
Fighting for freedom by placing a bomb walking away and killing innocent people.
Perhaps they were fleeing because the worst element of the “Republican Movement” had made being a Catholic in Northern Ireland unsafe ?
In fact it made being Irish at all a reason for suspicion. We didn’t have as many bombs as you did but our reputation was damaged as we were associated with the antics of the “freedom fighters”.
Those “Sectarian Pograms” were provoked by attack from the other side.
You tell the story as if one day towards the end of the sixties the unionists decided to just kill all the Catholics. That’s not the case.
Alex, your exposing your own ignorance. The sectarian pogroms didn’t come about because of attacks form the other side. The provos didn’t even exist then. As as I outlined, the first british soldier killed (Hugh McCabe in 1969) was killed by the RUC, and that the first RUC officer to be killed (Constable William Arbuckle) was killed by loyalists, and that the first sectarian killings (of John Scullion and Peter Ward) were carried out by the UVF; and that the first bombings (in 1969) were carried out by loyalists and that the first of almost a thousand state killings (of Sammy Devenney, in front of his family; and of nine-year-old Patrick Rooney) were carried out by the RUC. These are FACTS/ So if you think I’m wrong, then do explain which facts are wrong and provide evidence to back it up.
So the Nationalists were just happily minding their own business before this?
The IRA was a knitting group before this?
They weren’t marching in defiance of prohibition orders in 68? (and you tell me things have changed in the north…..)
I can see that you think we in the South are tough on the nationalists and ignore the Loyalist atrocities but its the nationalists who want be part of our country not the the loyalists so we are guarded of our peaceful reputation. We don’t like the idea of a bunch of gurriers latching onto our identity. Thugs and Gurriers belong in England and it seems that the border was drawn pretty right to keep them there.
How would these morons blowing other people instead of themselves have been doing anything for “Irish Freedom”.
Sinn Fein have shown their true colours over this farce. They’ve been trying to justify it by saying that unionist bigots are allowed to stupid provocative marches so nationalists should be able to have stupid provocative marches too. Personally I’m sick of these marches. I’d like to see a 5 year moratorium of all marches of all types in Northern Ireland every summer things grind to a halt due to this backward moronic displays of sectarianism. Villiers is proving to truly be an empty suit. She might have words to say about it but she will do damn all about the parades in the North despite the fact that the Parades and processions Act which sets down the law for parades and marches in Northern Ireland is Westminster legislation and would require UK govt input to reform because its obviously the assembly is incapable with dealing with this issue maturely and responsibly
Conor, it’s a nationalist march in a nationalist town, hardly the same as oranges marching down nationalist streets or playing the famine song outside catholic church’s. that’s triumphalist and is rightly condemned.
What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Last time I looked Tyrone is part of Ireland march away.
They wanted to blow up someone else, make a dogs b…..ox of it and blew themselves up. And they want to celebrate this??? Seriously?? Now that’s Irish
Our two brave Volunteers died in a premature explosion. Explosives are volatile. The march doesn’t “celebrate” how they died, it will commemorate their lives with dignity. Something your post severely lacks.
Conan, Collins was brave. Your sacrificial lambs to the slaughter (18 & 22yo) weren’t “brave”, just stupid. They were going to murder people at a customs post. A memorial to the innocent victims of terrorism and crime in Castlederg would be more fitting.
“Premature explosion” There’s a tablet for that now.
Sharon, the British when they INVADED foreign lands they pillaged and plundered and carried out some of the most gruesome massacres against defenceless men, women and children. Yet they commemorate their mercenaries! Is that what you call British? This is Ireland, we commemorate throughout this Island all Irish men and women who fought against all forms of British terrorism!
Collins and his men regularly shot unarmed men from behind. What is brave about that? These two volunteers regularly engaged in armed action against armed British soldiers, out in the open. And they lived in a society which trampled their rights into the ground in a way Collins would never have had to suffer through.
You two lads are dinosaurs who are going to be left in the past with all the other dinosaurs.
Grow up and cop on.
Bobby & Conan are both suffering from historical myopia. Bobby needs to have a more broad look at British history over the last 306 years, trade not invasion was the cornerstone of British success and realise that Ireland was part of it. The tired old story of British hoards over-running innocent hobbit like cultures like the Irish is disingenuous. Blowing up innocent customs officials isn’t “fighting against British terrorism” (whatever that is).
Conan, where to begin with you?
As Gavin said, grow up and cop on.
Ah good, another sanctimonious free stater passing his judgement. At least I understand the past. It helps to do so in order to build a proper future.
Glen, “trade not invasion” that is the best definition of state terrorism including massacre of the innocents I have ever heard and you tell others to grow? Of course the British war machine was welcomed with open arms in every country they invaded. You need to take of those rose tinted glasses when you do on occasion try to educate yourself on the history of the British Empire?
Go polish your sword!
Conan, I live in the Republic of Ireland (not the Free State) although I’m not from here. I understand the past. You only have a one-eyed view of a minutiae portion of the past. It doesn’t help building a proper future.
Bobby, it would bode you well to read some history books about Britain and its relationship with Europe and the rest of the world, instead of buying Wolfe Tone records and Che Guevara posters for the bedroom. “British war machine”? Sounds like a good name for a band. Over 300 years there were good & bad things. Abolishment of slavery, global free trade, free movement of people, education, the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand. I’m proud of that history.
Why don’t you two get introduced? I’m sure you’ll make a lovely couple :)
Bobby, you are quite right about the atrocities committed as part of British Imperial history. I hope you in turn are not wearing green-tinted glasses.
broad look at british history, where to start, ok concentrations camps for the boers and kenyans, drug pushing in china (ah noble trade) dividing pakistan and india, overthrow of mossadeq in iran. organised massacres in malaysia, india , afghanistan irealnd etc etc famines in india, 12 million die, land cleared and taxed and used to fund afghan war , more massacres. so noble so business like is britain this past three hundred years. you sir are mental or have read just one book written by niall ferguson i imagine .
The “USA”? They commemorate every 4th of July their form of “terrorism, “terrorism” that removed the British war machine that had invaded their shores! It wasn’t a trade war, as you foolishly interpret, it was a violent vicious war that is commemorated with pride. They Irony of that commemoration is the Land was taken from the indigenous Indian natives. Ireland for the Irish!
Paul I have a right to wear green tinted glasses, I am not justifying any invasion of anyone’s land. I stand within my own country Ireland and wear with pride, “green tinted glasses.” However looking at your photo and your comments, you need to go to Spec Savers?
Brian, I can provide a list as well. Niall Ferguson’s books are actually pretty good and don’t gloss over some unfortunate episodes. But to paint a picture of Britain as some malignant force like Mordor invading and conquering the world is disingenuous. If it was so bad the Commonwealth of Nations (most republics and a lot in Africa and including India & Pakistan) wouldn’t continue to exist.
Bobby, the British “war machine that invaded their shores?” The Americans were British subjects. Their issue was taxation without representation, and their taxes were in fact less than in the UK. Yes, the gained their independence. The difference is they don’t have an inferiority complex and keep a chip on their shoulder about it.
Ireland for the Irish? Who do you mean? The stone aged peoples who first arrived? The Celts? The Gaels? What about the Scotti who moved to Scotland? Or the Picts who travelled here? Vikings? Normans? Angles or Saxons who came to trade? What about Irish who aren’t Catholic? Or Irish who aren’t white? Who decides? You obviously.
This persistent divisiveness due to myopic views of the past and “It’s everyone else’s fault but mine” by two groups holds back everyone else in Ireland who wants to move forward.
glen first of all, you live in Ireland not the Republic of Ireland. You would do well to read some history books yourself. you say you are proud of what the British done in Australia , America, Canada. Do you even realise what happened to the natives of those lands ? you are also proud of the abolition of slavery, which is commendable but fail to realise which land the slaves came from in the first place. (hint, you living in one). As you have said yourself , you have a one eyes view of the past.
Shane. In the 19th century’s wesern frontier the US was a smaller republic than it is now. There were alot of Europeans who anihilated the indigenous peoples of America and other countries. These included a large number of Irish people looking for a better life somewhere else – in a land grab that saw the rights of indigenous peoples ignored. There is regrettable history everywhere. Trick is to learn from it instead of disassociating yourself from it and blaming it all on the Boogieman.
Hi Shane. I live in the Republic of Ireland which is on the island of Ireland. Yes, I do realise what happened to indigenous people’s of Australia, Canada etc I’ve spent many years in Australia so I’m well aware. Not good. But you say I should be more ashamed of indigenous suffering than be proud of the modern countries achievements? Your slave comments are just odd. The Irish traded slaves too btw. History happens. Some of its good. Some of its shameful. People here need to take a step back and take a detached look at the big picture, without nitpicking nuggets to back their team.
The Irish are not the tribes of Israel who lived in harmony then unproportionately suffered at the hands of a Bogey-Man. They’re no different from anyone else. Move on people.
Conan, understand but not dwell upon.
Dwelling upon? Holding one parade in the town and the only nationalist parade there in years is DWELLING on the past??
yes glen i agree, today Australia is a vibrant modern country and one which most countries would do well to aspire to but to gloss over the past atrocities because the end justified the means is kidding no one. it does not make it alright. it is shameful and was repeated all over the empire time and time again.
your comment on “trade not invasion” is that a joke ? sure Cromwell was a great trader ! the penal laws were fine and dandy. the ulster plantations were just a wee misunderstanding.
You do live in Ireland. the Republic of Ireland is the name of our national football team, you can also use Eire if you wish.
Shane are you maintaing that the British Empire as it was consisted for several hundred years of nothing but Cromwells?
It is not a celebration.It is a commemoration of all Tyrone volunteers some of who were murdered unarmed in shoot to kill operations by British Security forces but you wouldn’t know anything about that would you?. People on here talk about people in the north being as bad as each other but they then go and make flippant disrespectful comments, hypocrites.
no . I am maintaining that there was a Cromwell and his legacy in Ireland is not one of trade but of invasion and murder. glen likes to paint a rosy picture of a Britain that brought civilisation to the savages of ireland through trade which is simply false.
Mairtin, isn’t that a bit of a double standard calling the killing of IRA volunteers ‘murder?’ If they had done the same to British soldiers, people would be praising them. If these men were soldiers in a war then the British would be perfectly justified in killing them, and vice versa.
I think most people accept that there are two sides to everything. If you think Glen portrays that picture, why do you respond by painting an opposite picture? It’s not balance if that’s what you’re thinking – it’s two conflicting versions of what you both consider “reality” without either being true.
That can be said about every solider that has gone to a war Glen. Bravery and stupidity have a very thin line between them.
Conan, my comment was directed at you, not any march. We should learn from history but not dwell upon it, which you, and others on both sides of the debate, appear to do. It’s not healthy and merely serves to foster continuing bigotry and hatred. I say again; on both sides.
Long past time to let go and move on.
I think, Shane, that Glen knows where he lives. I live in the Republic of Ireland too.
Who the hell are you to decide that the state we live in doesn’t exist?
Grainnie take a look at your passport. What does it say ?
Please explain, Conan, what was “brave” about planting a bomb and walking away, knowing that people would have arms and legs and heads blown off by that bomb?
Villers should keep her discriminatory opinion to herself, this will be a dignified parade to commemorate two brave Irish Freedom Fighters. She’s dancing to the tune of sectarian bigots!
Do you mean “Irish Freedom” fighters or “Irish” Freedom Fighters?
Right Wing Steve, glad you agree with me.
“Irish Freedom Fighters”? That’s such a catch all cliche. And in no way sectarian bigotry?!
They were going to murder people in aid of their “cause” and killed themselves in the process. They are not “freedom fighters” or “soldiers” but terrorists who came to the same end they had planned for their victims. Apart from the loss to their families, this shouldn’t be celebrated or commemorated.
Are you hearing voices again Bobby? It’s probably a Wolfe Tones record.
HA HA they blew themselves up with their OWN BOMB!!
I hadn’t heard of them before but surely the IRA would want to distance themselves from such incompetence and stupidity.
What were their names Lloyd Christmas and Harry Dunne!!
R W S, it is much better to listen to the Wolf Tones than to be sucked in by a load of British propaganda! A Nation once again, a Nation once again……. those Wolf Tones they send tingles up my spine. Actually Wolf Tone was an Irish Protestant, Steve you should be proud, I am!
Far better to listen to one set of propaganda than another set of propaganda?
I’d say its far better not to listen to any propaganda at all.
Terrorist is also a very “catch all cliche” . Terrorist in one man’s eyes is a freedom fighter in another. Depending on what side you are looking from.
It’s time for Sinn Féin to show leadership in community building. Call off this parade citing respecting the wishes of the local community.
Doing this will gain them the “moral” high ground by pushing the continuous parades issue firmly back onto the Loyalist/Unionist community to work with local communities to build a society for all.
The local community is mainly nationalist and support the march. Where were you to call for the calling of of the 19 loyalist ‘kick the Pope’ parades through this nationalist town so far this year which the local community actually DIDN’T want??
Conan
Did I say “wishes of the majority of the local community”?
No.
I said “wishes of the local community”.
So go back & read my comment again and you will see that the second part deals with the ‘‘kick the Pope’ parades.
You haven’t dealt with loyalists parades at all. you only referred to them. So far the only parade you have called to be cancelled is the one nationalist parade which the town will have seen in many years.
Conan. Do you even grasp the concept of the moral high ground?
Not a concept loyalists grasp…nationalists took the moral high ground for most of July when they watched bonfires with their country’s flag being burnt, adorned with signs-KAT-kill all taigs…and recently deceased priests being mocked. Concept can be a tad tricky when the other side won’t pick up on meaning!!
I’m sure many loyalists and republican grasp it quite well. Just not the idiots who are becoming less and less in numbers and being ridiculed all over the world. The sooner they realise this the better. In order for a side to take the moral high ground they have to lead by example which puts pressure on the other side. That’s how it works. Just to clear up any confusion.
Moral high ground? There hasn’t been a nationalist parade in this nationalist town since the 1990′s. There have been NINETEEN loyalist ‘Kick the Pope’ parades through the mainly Nationalist town of Castlederg this year alone. By next week there will have been twenty. Nationalists have taken the moral high ground by ignoring them and letting them go about their business without objection or protest. Is asking for the right to hold ONE single, peaceful, dignified nationalist parade through this same nationalist town too much to stomach for the moral guardians of society like yourself?
There was no confusion. In fact i could take the moral high ground in response to you and totally agree-id just like to high light that it can be difficult to take the moral high ground as nationalists in Belfast when your constantly referred to as bead rattlers and second class citizens. If you look back at the coverage shown world wide the majority of the bad behaviour came from the OO and Loyalists.
But in reference to your point-I think a lot of Nationalists and Catholics have actually taken the moral high ground and not responded to their behaviour over the past few months. There was less rioting from West Belfast, very few catholic arrests. Given the provocation towards catholics from the Loyalists id say they did take the moral high ground! Including the flag protests….bonfires…endless parades….
Taking the moral high ground doesn’t have to be a once-off event – why not continue to take it instead of stooping to the Orange Order’s level?
Point taken Mattoid. Im not sure one commemorative march cant be likened to stooping to the OO level over their marching season. Think Villiers (British Conservative Party) should probably have a rule for all- and not just voice opinion on the Nationalist march….
Conan / Eimhear
Taking the high moral ground in this instance will again show the world (not that is needs showing again), that the sectarianism (in other words Apartheidism) so beloved by loyalists is the main cause of social unrest and the blockage to the development of a social justice and freedom of expression within Northern Ireland.
Here is an option to portray Republicanism in a good way to the world. Gather for the parade, and then just as it is about to start make a public announcement along the lines, “In the interests of building an inclusive society for all the peoples of Northern Ireland, this parade will be postponed until such time that all parades within Northern Ireland can be planned and carried out in such a way that they honour and respect all traditions within Northern Ireland”.
How sick do you think the average Englishman or woman would be if they turn on the BBC news to see a republican parade being postponed out of respect for building an inclusive society that respects all traditions, while at the same time the loyalists supporters of the Crown run riot as they want to prevent this.
Well that’s certainly a valid option. I agree it would certainly cast a favourable light on Republicans in the North.
Suppose we should also ask Englishmen and women how they felt went they turned on the television and watched British people in the North attacking the PSNI and causing chaos while draped in their Union jack? All in the name of Britishness! They arent too bothered over there!
Actually the more I think about this idea the better this sounds….I take my hat off to you
It is not a nationalist parade, Conan. It is a terrorist parade. Don’t insult nationalists by assuming they support terrorism.
So its ok for the ku klux clan aka the orange order to parade but not the nationalists? Talk about double standards! Shared future me arse! How about all parades that intimidate be banned!
Babsy, does the Orange Order celebrate terrorists who blew themselves up while trying to murder innocent people?
Let Ireland commemorate its patriot dead
She looks life the wicked witch from the wizard of Oz, except paler.
She looks like ann coulters less intelligent sister
f thats paossible
Think it’s about time that both sides started supporting a Mardi Gras in every town in the north. No Dissident or Loyalist thugs would be seen dead dressed in a pink Tutu or a yellow spandex one-piece.
Try wearing a tricolour mankini with your Che Guevara get-up, or a pink sash and bowler hat and keep a straight face while spieling the vitriol and hatred.
Just a thought.
Best suggestion by far on this thread, Biege…make it happen Martin and Peter!!!!
Haha! Amazing idea!….I think Jonny Adair used to be fond of pink….
Any of you that regard these parades as “childish” or “pointless” are fools! Obviously you weren’t around during the troubles or lived in a plastic bubble. Brilliant men and women died for this country and you think they are not worth remembering? Typical to call for a Nationalist march to be called off but the orange thugs can do as they like…some things will never change
A “celebration” of two irish freedom fighters ( ie wastes of oxygen).
The best defence for purposely aggravating others is a case of whataboutitis.
Stay classy Northern Ireland.
Mary
you absolute troll,
you’re a waste of oxygen and an anonymous troll.
I apologise Ned. I’d never mean to offend big brave men like yourself.
What I meant was “wastes of skin”.
@Ned
You, on the other hand, are not a troll with your various abusive posts throughout this thread?
It’s a lot classier trolling it by mocking two deceased men, like Cummins there.
So hang on when the ejits in orange march down a road to wind up the other side and act in a childish manner that’s bang out of order but its ok for republicans to do it. I have to say very hypocritical by the republican side. You can’t give out stink about the orange order and then do the same yourself….
The orange order do it through nationalist areas, singing anti-Catholic songs. This parade is a nationalist one through a nationalist town, where no anti-Protestant songs will be sung. Clown.
Sounds like you support the old apartheid Conan. You don’t want a border but you think it’s ok to divide people into Nationalist and Loyalist areas with one rule for them and another for us? Surely you would prefer unity in communities where tolerance prevails? Or do you only support Us against Them?
I support apartheid!!? This gets better!!! Nationalist and loyalist areas are just the unfortunate reality of the sectarian state which should never have come into existence in the first place. Such divisions in population started with the plantation. I had no involvement in the Plantation, so sorry to tell you I’m no apartheid. These divisions being the reality, you have to just deal with it. Castlederg is mainly nationalist, yet by next week there will have been twenty loyalist band parades through it. There will be no nationalist objection to any of them. Isn’t it a pity that the only nationalist parade in years in the town can’t be afforded the same respect and tolerance?
I think the majority of people would like to see the back of all parades.
I agree that “Nationalist and loyalist areas are just the unfortunate reality of the sectarian state which should never have come into existence in the first place”.
However, you say that “These divisions being the reality, you have to just deal with it.” – but I’m prettty sure that you don’t feel the same about the border itself.
You’re right I don’t feel the same about the border. Unlike religious segregation, the border can be removed in our lifetimes. Religious segregation, is a result of the centuries old British policy of divide & conquer, and has been a reality since the plantation. Partition, by it’s definition and nature, only makes the problem worse. Not until the cancer of partition is ended, can the problem be gradually resolved.
I don’t agree with the border but your logic doesn’t make sense. Partition to divide and conquer? Do you think the British are looking to conquer the rest of the Island? Do you agree with the parition of Britain as proposed by the SNP or is that easily dismissed as somebody else’s business?
Historically you can say that the English policy of divide and conquer worked in Ireland because it was already disunited when they (well actually the Normans) came here – so they took advantage of the extant divisions – back in the 12th century. It was never united. That doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be, but it’s not a reality until the social divisions are faded in to the background. Hardly likely while people are waving flags and going out to celebrate the killing of the other side.
R H, the partition of Ireland and the campaign for Scottish independence are very different things. Scotland was actually an independent nation for several centuries before it merged with England to form Great Britain. While I do recognise that Ireland was never a united nation before the invasion, we became politically united after that and a United Ireland would have as much validity as an independent Scotland. Northern Ireland, however, is an arbitrary creation of 1921 having no real basis in anything.
I don’t disagree with the differences, I am refuting the logic “Partition, by it’s definition and nature, only makes the problem worse.” – clearly not in all cases, so neither by its definition or its nature does it make problems worse.
There is therefore something else that worsens the problem of partition.
My point would be that Scottish independence would not be partition, it would be the Scottish people choosing to again be independent. Scotland has a historical basis, Northern Ireland doesn’t.
I stand corrected. Partition is defined as ‘the act or process of dividing something into parts’ or ‘division of a country into separate, autonomous nations.’ I think the word is just coloured in Ireland by the situation in the North.
Killian, do you believe the act of Union between Scotland and England to have no validity? Note it’s not the same question as “Do you think Scotland should be independent?”. To maintain that you must maintain that the UK doesn’t exist.
I think the UK was agreed between two nations (at least the relevant act of union was). It can be dissolved by either of those nations. That means it would be a partition of one thing – into two things.
Oops. Didn’t see your reply while I was making my tea.
Is a parade on either side worth one more life,both sides have lost too many allready,,,,
Call off Norn Iron.
Conan and other “Nordies”,
Given the opinions of the people on here, which are very representative of the majority of people in the South why do want to be part of our country anyway?
You wouldn’t fit in. We are OK with England now. We had the queen here to visit and we liked it.
You’re 100 years behind us in attitudes and opinions. In fact the North is so paranoid that the only future for it is as a standalone state doomed to suffer from infighting for ever like some Sub Saharan African “Bongo Bongo” state.
Why is it that the troubles only occur in the poorer working class parts of the North? Could it be that the whole thing was never really about religion or politics but class? That these same people who wrap themselves in a flag would have been in gangs and other criminality whatever the situation is almost certain.
It’s no surprise that both sides were involved in drugs, extortion and robbery under the banner of “freedom fighting”.
Is there a difference between the problems in the North and the problems in the bad parts of Dublin or Limerick?
Somebody take the shovel off this clown. Ireland is not “your” country. It’s OUR country. All 32 counties of it. Partition didn’t take my Irishness off me, and neither will idiots like you. As for this arrogant crap of the south being 100 years ahead of the north in it’s thinking. Riddle me this…how is it unionists can accept Martin McGuinness jointly holding the most powerful position in northern politics, yet the people of the south just couldn’t get over the past when McGuinness stood for a powerless office in it recently? He was harassed and abused about the past in a way he simply never is in the north. Finally, if republicans were so involved in drugs, might I suggest you do some research into the the IRA cover name ‘DAAD’. P.s. Your “bongo bongo land” remark shows just how little class you really have.
Alex, well said.
Conan, DAAD was the old IRA rubbing out the competition. They’re about protection racquets, drugs, organised crime etc. Even auld Mr Adams, who I used to despise, has moved on and says that the only way forward is for everyone to respect each other and embrace the democratic process.
The majority of the NI population wish to remain in the UK. They can be proud Irishmen & women while also being British citizens. Its not a hard concept. If they (NI populace) choose to change administrations from London/Stormont to Leinster House, it will be by the ballot box. Meanwhile the people of England, Scotland & Wales may look on with mild interest, if any at all.
Well said Conan.
You’re right! We in the south are not prepared to elect former members of a terrorist organisation to be our president. That’s the kind of thing that happens in Bongo Bongo Land.
You live in a part of the Island that has a large number of people (~ 50% ) who do not want to be part of my country. How do you propose to solve that?
Bombing them out didn’t work. They’re still there.
On the class issue: I live in the South where class is less of an issue you live in the North where it’s all important. The troubles are about Unionists and Nationalist lower classes fighting to avoid being the bottom rung of the ladder.
DAAD only tackled dealers that didn’t pay protection money. The IRA are not so noble that they didn’t have a price. Republicans made a lot of money from smuggling and they didn’t worry too much about whether it was hurting “their” country or the Unionists as long as they were able to line their pockets.
You need to face facts that we don’t want the North as part of our country and a large part of the North don’t want us. Where does that leave you?
Again, I will repeat the simple fact which jumps out above all your lies….Ireland is not “your” country. It’s OUR country. Neither partition, nor arrogant fools like you (who have the temerity to lecture about “class”), can take that from me.
The fact you need to be so defensive of it tells me you’re not very secure about it either.
I live in the Republic. You live in the UK.
You’re “Utterly Butterly” .
I’m “Kerrygold”.
Republic of Ireland is the 26 counties.
You need to march up and down waving flags in loyalists faces to be Irish. I just wake up Irish every morning.
If the nationalists in the North hadn’t tried to bomb their way to a United Ireland we might have had more sympathy and perhaps could accept them as Irish but we don’t want the kind of people who would bomb their way to get what they want. Nor do we want the kind who would commemorate bombers in a March.
Nationalists in the North are so focused on keeping score against the Unionists that they forget that they need to consider what the rest of Ireland think of them. We would have vote to have you back remember.
Sure the Unionists did wrong too but they aren’t trying to call themselves Irish. You and other Republicans like you are and you’re not passing the attitude test.
What exactly is your realistic vision for the North?
How would a United Ireland work?
Conan; “Ireland is not “your” country. It’s OUR country” By that do you mean “our” as being very selective and only those who subscribe to your narrow ethos? Is everyone else to be excluded?
Alex spoke the truth – but what is your answer (apart from insults)?
You want “one country” that exists in some Celtic fairytale land where there is a mono-culture of white, Catholic, Gaelic speaking Irish people’s living together in harmony like Hobbits in The Shire. What about those who don’t want to be part of this Republican Socialist Utopia? Bomb them out? What about ethnic cleansing? How about when the revolution comes like the Taliban you force people to speak only Irish and wear period costumes? Seriously, I could go on…
The only thing that separates the likes of your brand of Nationalism from the EDL is geoography.
You really are a horrible piece of work
I don’t agree with the march, although I understand how angry nationalists must feel having to put up with orange order MARCHES only to have ONE nationalist march commented upon like this by DeVillers. Alex Wilsdon also needs to study his history again; ‘bomb their way into the republic’? It shocks me every time people make stupid comments like this. What would you do if you were burned out of your house, not allowed vote, pushed out of your job? Phone the police? No, they’re helping the thugs burn you out. Turn to your local government? Its not your government because they’ve rigged the boundaries. I know I’ll just leave. Put yourself in their shoes. I dont support the thugs now known as the RIRA or CIRA, criminals who use the flag for convenience. People in the south have a very patchy understanding of this conflict, people forget it was a war – so much so the southern government contemplated asking the UN to intervene.
Hopefully we’ve turned a corner, with cooperation, tolerance and respect at the heart of any future state. History, no matter how horrendous, is just that. A united Ireland requires understanding on both sides of the border too, which firstly requires understanding of why the IRA came about.
This isn’t a nationalist march, Gabhán. The nationalists of Northern Ireland are the ordinary decent people who go about their business. Being nationalist doesn’t equal being a terrorist supporter.
This is a terrorist march, supported by a political party who has for many years pretended to have left its support for terrorism behind, but which has revealed its true colours.
Please don’t insult the nationalists on this entire island by equating them with terrorists and terrorist supporters.
A march to commemorate two terrorists who were killed by their own bomb – this is sick.
She looks like that other mad yoke, Michelle Mulherne
These marches, parades or whatever title they go under have no place in modern societies.
The IRA cowards planting bombs under the guise of the Irish tricolor is nothing to be proud of anyway. In fact the Ardoyne pipe bands have properly mote reason to parade.
Ban all parades in Northern Ireland is the only workable solution.
Were Collins and his men also cowards for shooting unarmed men in the back?
Anybody that would shoot an unarmed person in the back is a coward and a murderer.
Plenty of them in the British army so James. Women and children shot in their backs too.
Another reason SF will never hold power in the republic. People see through their populist tripe for what they are. Their down in the polls. This will take them down further…
Perhaps if we carried out enough Fracking along the border we could sever off the 6 counties while keeping our homes warm with all the gas and getting rid of these troglodytes?
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