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Teenager hospitalised after 'vicious' attack in child detention centre

Three staff who tried to intervene were also injured.

Updated: 22.28

A TEENAGER WAS treated in hospital after he was attacked by another detainee at Oberstown child detention centre last night.

Three staff who tried to intervene were also injured in the incident and had to receive medical attention.

It’s understood that the attacker used a broken cup as a weapon.

All of those who required medical attention have now been released from hospital.

The incident has been referred to the gardaí and they are investigating the circumstances.

Campus Manager, Patrick Bergin, said the campus is in the process of organising support services for young people and staff and the situation will be kept under review.

It’s reported that the attacker is one of the teenagers who escaped in July and was recaptured earlier this month.

Fianna Fáil Spokesperson for Children Robert Troy described the incident as “extremely worrying”.

“The vicious assault that took place shows us that neither inmates nor the staff are safe at the facility as it currently stands.

“Representatives of workers at the centre have pointed out that alarms failed to trigger and there is serious concern amongst staff regarding the level of training that they have received to deal with incidents such as this.”

- with reporting by Órla Ryan

Read: Four teenagers broke out of a €56 million child detention facility>

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61 Comments
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    Mute catherine
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    Aug 20th 2015, 12:14 PM

    Time for big boy prison I think !

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    Mute Toddimus Maximus
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    Aug 20th 2015, 12:28 PM

    Having worked with young lads in this situation I find this behaviour tends to stem from fear and frustration, behaviour which I’m not condoning. I feel sorry for the staff up there, not a wonder turnover is pretty high

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    Mute The Throwaway
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    Aug 20th 2015, 2:48 PM

    Whatever the origin of their behaviour there should be a clear line in the sand, with very clear and deliberate consequences. Too often there’s a sob story to go with the actions. But the thing is everyone has a sob story. No one has led such a perfect life that they never felt frustration, fear or anger. But the majority of people are developed enough to work through the bad aspects of life and not to take a broken cup or other weapon to the people around them.

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    Mute Mark Ryan
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    Aug 20th 2015, 2:48 PM

    fear and frustration? frustration at getting caught is it?

    117
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    Mute Toddimus Maximus
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    Aug 20th 2015, 2:53 PM

    There’s no point in arguing if that’s your belief. But we can’t always just blame the individual either. It’s a learned behaviour. Too much focus is put on locking them up to teach the a lesson. A purpose that isn’t served. I’m not saying this young lad was right, the case I would make is that with early intervention this situation could be more preventable

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    Mute catherine
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    Aug 20th 2015, 3:25 PM

    That’s no good with Todd as these inmates are beyond early intervention. The question is what do we do now ? Not all kids come from violent or abusive backgrounds. Three near a relative of mine had loving non addicted non criminal parents . They just never held their kids accountable for anything and never taught respect for people or property . Consequently these boys are in and out of prison . One at the time or all three together. . Intervention is great but these kids still live at home and this is the problem. What do we do now ? I think teaching them that anger violence gas repercussions is the best we can do. The army and boot camps teach discipline and often it’s the first taste of discipline some of these kids get. Firm but fair. You can choose to hurt soneone but there will be consequences so you better unlearn that response if you don’t want to spend your life in prison .

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    Mute Toddimus Maximus
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    Aug 20th 2015, 3:29 PM

    What do you suggest we do right now so? Negative reinforcement simply does not work. The army idea isn’t a bad one but a difficult one to set up, monitor and staff

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    Mute Micheal S. O' Ceilleachair
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    Aug 20th 2015, 8:07 PM

    Have you a viable solution for the present problem?

    26
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    Mute John
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    Aug 20th 2015, 11:11 PM

    @Toddimus Maximus
    It is people exactly like you that have the staff up in Oberstown in danger with your ‘You can’t just blame the individual”.
    Yes you can ALWAYS blame the individual as he is the ONLY who had free choice in the situation,
    he could have
    (a) attacked someone
    (b) obeyed the rules

    Guess which he chose???????????????????????????????????????????

    53
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    Mute Toddimus Maximus
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    Aug 20th 2015, 11:19 PM

    Excellent point John, I clearly haven’t a notion what I’m talking about.

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    Mute John
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    Aug 20th 2015, 11:24 PM

    @Toddimus Maximus
    In fairness you wouldn’t be alone there as whoever thought up this Oberstown Fiasco for hardened criminals would be right up there with you

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    Mute Trea Lynch
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    Aug 20th 2015, 11:26 PM

    Todd is not condoning the attack and he is absolutely spot on with the fear and frustration motivation. Yes for many of these young adults there is literally nothing we can do at this stage but the key is to intervene at an earlier stage before it gets to far. We know that an incredibly high proportion of young offenders are coming from particular urban areas. Deis schools are having a good effect but I think we need to go further; the Harlem project in New York is a good example of what can be done with professional support given from birth to graduation in order to break the cycle. Without such a proactive approach this problem will continue.

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    Mute John
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    Aug 20th 2015, 11:39 PM

    @Trea
    These ‘Urban Areas’ as you put it are having money thrown at them like it is going out of fashion.
    The Deis schools discriminate against ordinary working families in good areas with a whimsical idea that down the line we will benefit. Social welfare and other supports are given with no questions asked about people getting off their arses and supporting themselves.When all this fails we then give millions to the same small group of sleazy lawyers who have the system tied up so that the decent law abiding citizen is afraid to walk the streets because there is no justice for victims in Ireland just sobbing for the poor perpetrators.
    Here is an idea, get rid of ‘free Legal Aid and have tough sentencing so we make it LESS attractive to break the law

    38
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    Mute Mick Murphy
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    Aug 20th 2015, 11:42 PM

    Todd, obviously you have experience working with young offenders and some of your suggestions have merit. But Mick makes a valid point when he asks where funding for this is to come from and also that these offenders are habitual and haven’t just arrived in Oberstown after one mistake. Even if your suggestions were put in place now it would not address the problems staff are facing at this moment in the facility. How do you think this young man who has committed this violent act portrayed in the above article should be dealt with? On a side note I think it is offensive to the members of our defence forces who are highly trained professionals to suggest that their chosen career should be a place to place criminals to “sort them out”.

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    Mute Toddimus Maximus
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    Aug 20th 2015, 11:44 PM

    Irish water had money thrown at it, it wasn’t a success. Money does not solve all problems. What would your alternative look like john? There are far too many middle men who lack expertise in the field coordinating these centres and pulling the strings. Have work with young offenders and the IYJS for 6 years, as well as coming through the system, I think early intervention and people making decisions with on the ground experience is the only way forward. I haven’t got a short term solution, but a long term one is better than no solution at all

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    Mute shelly
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    Aug 20th 2015, 11:46 PM

    Catherine I salute you, wise words

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    Mute Jimy O Gionnán
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    Aug 20th 2015, 11:50 PM

    there’s no doubt at these guys need a damn hard lesson in discipline… and I mean damn hard… but the army is not the place for that lesson to be learned.. the army is a professional organisation and not a place for troubled kids…but a military style regime with a lot of physical and mentally challenging situations could be the making of some of these lads… but im afraid some are already lost to evil

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    Mute John
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    Aug 20th 2015, 11:55 PM

    @Toddimus Maximus
    My solution is
    1. Immediately get rid of ‘Free Legal Aid’ for second and subsequent charges.
    2. Use the millions saved to build Highly Secure, Low Manned prisons in rural areas so that whatever employment they bring is a bonus and they are well away from the cities these thugs come from.
    3. Revamp the entire sentencing system with a view to much longer prison time and scrap the ludicrous ‘Suspended Sentence’ nonsense.
    4. Have Judges elected every four years so they are accountable to the ordinary people.
    5. Bankrupt every criminal who could not pay restitution to their victims.

    Deterrents work if people believe they will be caught and punished IMO

    21
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    Mute Toddimus Maximus
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    Aug 21st 2015, 12:11 AM

    Free legal aid is definitely not perfect, but it gives the person their right to representation. Much longer prison times brings a bigger cost. You have to remember a lot of the inmates are also still children, and are children who were destined to end up in the system from day one. There are larger societal issues that must be addressed before you can bring in your deterrents. I agree with you on your point about judges, I’d be all for accountability in that regard. Bankruptcy of criminals who can’t pay compensation will only make things worse in the long run. A lot criminals come from a fairly impoverished background, and would all be declared bankrupt as a result. Respectfully, you don’t seem like someone who has thought too much about it or has any experience at a ground level in the sector.

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    Mute John
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    Aug 21st 2015, 12:22 AM

    I don’t seem to have thought about it?????
    My ground level experience is being stabbed by someone who was a week out of prison and by the time he got back to court had multiple other offenses rolled up into one effective 6 month stretch with all the rest either suspended or paroled so don’t give me that sh(t about ground level.
    If i punch your face every time you say a deterrent doesn’t work then I guarantee you that the deterrent of you not wanting your face punched will stop you saying it.
    Deterrents are in play because the ordinary public are afraid to stand up to these thugs because of the deterrent of being attacked. Our deterrent should be greater than the gangsters one. Simples !!!!

    14
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    Mute Toddimus Maximus
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    Aug 21st 2015, 12:30 AM

    Give you what sh(t. Fair enough you’ve had a bad experience but your rational thought is being clouded by that because of emotion which is quite understandable. Having worked with these young lads, some are able to be rehabilitated, others are not. Your proposal doesn’t give the lads that are able to change. I was an idiot when I was younger, and have multiple juvenile convictions. Going on your logic, I’d probably still be caught in a repetitive cycle. Negative reinforcement didn’t work for me, and doesn’t work with the majority of young lads either. There are other ways than the American model of harsher punishments, and the proof is in the pudding, it’s done sweet fa for them. Look I think we’re just gonna go around in circles here so I’m gonna tip on. Buenos noches

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    Mute John
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    Aug 21st 2015, 12:35 AM

    @Toddimus Maximus
    Congratulations on turning your life around,

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    Mute Zozzy Zozimus
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    Aug 21st 2015, 10:34 AM

    Toddimus seems to have spoken the most sense here.

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    Mute Mick Jordan
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    Aug 20th 2015, 12:34 PM

    And the Pigeons are coming home to roost. Now we see the disastrous policy of closing down St Patrick’s being rolled out in full public view.
    These convicts (let us not fool ourselves by referring to them as “children”) are as violent and vicious as any Adult convict in the system and in many cases more so. And where the softly softly approach is an utter joke to them. When Prison staff were dealing with them, they had the training, the tools and the authority to use the necessary force to put down any aggression and restrain and detain those involved. But then the Bleeding Hearts stuck their oar in and now we see the results. Staff in Oberstown being attacked and injured on a daily basis.
    Will it take the death of a member of staff or another convict to get those who dreamt up this nightmare to admit that they got it wrong.

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    Mute Dominique Lavin
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    Aug 20th 2015, 12:47 PM

    Well said mick

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    Mute Freda Hanratty
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    Aug 20th 2015, 1:55 PM

    Very good comment Mick, and precisely to the point! It’s a ticking time bomb. When something is done, it will be too little too late!!

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    Mute Kate Crotty Brett
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    Aug 20th 2015, 10:55 PM

    I agree with every word mick.

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    Mute John James
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    Aug 20th 2015, 12:25 PM

    No harm in gaving him a slap or two , might teach him a lesson and he will not commit a crime again…

    122
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    Mute Toddimus Maximus
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    Aug 20th 2015, 12:26 PM

    Ye he sounds like the type of chap that wouldn’t slap you back alright

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    Mute Alan Scott
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    Aug 20th 2015, 2:33 PM

    A long stent in the Army for these fellas . The people there would teach them manners and knock the aggression out of them.

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    Mute Ian moylan
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    Aug 20th 2015, 12:55 PM

    Skumbag simple as that
    No political correctness shite
    Skumbag

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    Mute Joey Gee
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    Aug 20th 2015, 1:17 PM

    Once in the six counties local crime was very low as, any one engaging in it were dealt with by way of a caman, the loss of adequate sanction has led to the increase of youth criminal behaviour.
    Less x box, more scrubbing tiles and pipes to get any concessions and remission, I know this works, telling them they’re naughty does not.

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    Mute LooseSpanner
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    Aug 20th 2015, 1:54 PM

    Totally agree with you Joey

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    Mute Daniel Barnes
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    Aug 20th 2015, 12:23 PM

    He will learn a lot more tricks in big boy prison and be a bigger menace when he’s out

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    Mute catherine
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    Aug 20th 2015, 12:28 PM

    Looks like he is learning plenty where is at the moment .

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    Mute Jo Murphy
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    Aug 20th 2015, 12:30 PM

    Yeah, slapping him will help beat the violence he’s learned as a coping mechanism right out of him. If only his parents and the people around him had thought of that. Good psychology right there, lads.

    69
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    Mute Kal Ipers
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    Aug 20th 2015, 12:49 PM

    Don’t waste your time trying to explain perfect logic it is wasted here. Such a sensible view is seen as being a bleeding heart liberal with a PC chip on your shoulder.
    The whole idea that victims of abuse and violent upbringings may be violent and aggressive doesn’t make sense to many people.

    61
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    Mute Mick Jordan
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    Aug 20th 2015, 1:16 PM

    Jo and Kal. How would you deal with ruthless violent and vicious thugs that on a daily basis are injuring your staff and other inmates, smashing up and destroying your facility, showing you and any set of rules you have in place utter contempt? Enlighten us.

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    Mute Toddimus Maximus
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    Aug 20th 2015, 1:19 PM

    Death penalty for sure Mick, sure it’s the only way..

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    Mute Mick Jordan
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    Aug 20th 2015, 1:23 PM

    Todd. Seen as you wish to answer for them why don’t you answer my question above. Btw it was a serious question unlike your remark.

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    Mute Toddimus Maximus
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    Aug 20th 2015, 1:39 PM

    An investment in supports from a younger age. When supports get to these children it’s usually reactionary rather than early intervention. I know of young men who’ve had stints in these facilities. Young men who’ve been pimped out to supply drugs for their guardians habits. Beaten bruised and raped from a young age. These children never have simple backgrounds. Their need to be more resources available. They don’t decide one day to just become criminals, behaviour is learned in the majority of cases, and coping with feelings via the medium of violent outbursts are all a lot of these kids have ever known. There’s my answer to your question

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    Mute Patlyndo
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    Aug 20th 2015, 1:47 PM

    No Tod,

    You see your logic dictates that anyone who has had a difficult start to life goes on to a life of crime – that is not true.

    Sadly, 1000′s of children don’t have the best upbringing – they don’t all go on to commit disturbing and violent crimes.

    Some people are just born bad, many parents of these “children” have done everything in their power to give them the best start – but it doesn’t work.

    Bad is bad and in a lot of cases, it can’t be rehabilitated no matter how much money you throw at it.

    62
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    Mute Toddimus Maximus
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    Aug 20th 2015, 1:52 PM

    No the point I was making was about the young men in these facilities, and in the majority of cases this is true, at least in my experience of working with them. As for your other point, you seem to have figured out a long standing social science debate of “nature vs nurture”. Congrats on that

    24
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    Mute Mick Jordan
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    Aug 20th 2015, 1:52 PM

    Todd. That doesn’t deal with the situation those staff in Oberstown are dealing with now. Not may or may not work in 10 years time. And where is all this extra funding for these resources you plan to come from? More taxes? Cutting other services?
    Many of these thugs come from generations of criminal families. Where their great grandfathers, grandfathers, fathers, older brothers, uncles and cousins have all been through and in many cases are in prison. Where criminality is the norm. Where they learn that the “law of the jungle” is the best way to get ahead. Where going “Straight” us seen as a betrayal of the family.

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    Mute Kal Ipers
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    Aug 20th 2015, 2:10 PM

    What would you do with somebody who has been brutally raped for years and attempted suicide several times?
    Should we lock them in shackles and put them in solitary confinement and then just release them into the streets?

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    Mute catherine
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    Aug 20th 2015, 2:16 PM

    They are not being jailed because they were raped or tried to commit sucide . They are jailed because of crime . Their has to consequences . they may be victims but they are willingly going out creating more victims of crime .

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    Mute Mick Jordan
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    Aug 20th 2015, 2:19 PM

    Kal. Try answering my question rather than evade it with asking a question a situation that is rare enough with these inmates. And that is what is risable. You take something that has happened to maybe 1% of them and try make out it applies to all.

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    Mute Mick Jordan
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    Aug 20th 2015, 2:43 PM

    And don’t be fooled into thinking these convicts are some sort of wide eyed innocent sent to Oberstown for taking a few apples from someone’s orchard. They are already hardened career criminals with a list of convictions as long as your arm and have been through every program possible to try turn them around before being sent to detention in Oberstown as a last resort.

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    Mute Kal Ipers
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    Aug 20th 2015, 2:52 PM

    Your question has been answered but I’ll indulge you. Firstly you are saying that how people react to being brutalised is very important to you. If it is suicidal you seem to have sympathy if it is angry and violent you want them locked up. What you seem to miss is that the different reactions need similar treatment as it has the root cause. Of course you want to point out not everybody reacts this way so the violent ones are somehow worth so much less because they should handle it in a way YOU think is appropriate.
    The reality is if we want them to be rehabilitated the need treatment. Brutalising them more will not fix the problem. The thought pattern is understandable punishment will be a deterrent. The problem is many of them felt punished for no reason so literally don’t understand things that way. These people have stunted social skill and don’t know how to react.
    I get why people would see that as a liberal PC view but it isn’t, the punishment model has been proven time and time again not to work. I want something that works. Are recidivism rate is terrible, that should be the measure used to see if it works.

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    Mute Toddimus Maximus
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    Aug 20th 2015, 2:57 PM

    Mick in answered your question. I haven’t got a fix it altogether solution but a long term solution is better than no solution at all. The reality is that these young people do come from highly dysfunctional backgrounds. That is fact, not some tar them all statement. What would you honesty suggest we do Mick?

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    Mute Patlyndo
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    Aug 20th 2015, 3:16 PM

    “No the point I was making was about the young men in these facilities, and in the majority of cases this is true, at least in my experience of working with them. ”

    Where do you think they come from? Space?

    “As for your other point, you seem to have figured out a long standing social science debate of “nature vs nurture”. Congrats on that”

    Eh, not so – the point I was making is that some people are just bad, evil and take Pacteau as a prime example – affluent and successful parents, educated in a very fine school – yet evil, pure evil.

    Again, many people have had difficult upbringings – they don’t take drugs, they don’t attack people, they don’t turn to crime.

    I am not sure of where your experience comes from – but my experience and the knowledge I have gained from people, namely prison officers, is that these “children” are on another level altogether, they are manipulative, scheming, selfish and entirely devoid of any empathy for anyone else.

    They use their families, their friends and anything to gain what they can – everything they do is to get something – I have seen it in action.

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    Mute Toddimus Maximus
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    Aug 20th 2015, 3:25 PM

    Alternatively, just like your comment says, most are not pure evil. A minority yes, majority no. There’s always elements of environment and temperament. My experience comes from 6 years of working within the IYJS and from being a past young offender myself

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    Mute Mick Jordan
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    Aug 20th 2015, 3:28 PM

    You see that is the thing. Neither you or Todd addressed the question of how to deal with the situation now present in Oberstown. What you both did is spin some long winded waffle about long term solutions that may or may not work with funding from who knows where. As I said these convicts have already exhausted every program the state can provide to turn them around and Oberstown is the only thing left open to the Courts. But then that same State then ties the hands of the staff making it impossible for them to deal appropriately with these vicious criminals.
    As for brutalising them. What utter nonsense. When they were incarcerated in St Patricks they were dealt with in a firm manner and strict discipline was enforced. But Brutalized by staff, that never where. That was emotive language used by the very people that have been responsible for the current disaster that is Oberstown. Academics and Judiciary that had no hands on experience with dealing with vicious, aggressive, violent, manipulative thugs.

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    Mute catherine
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    Aug 20th 2015, 3:32 PM

    There is always way more spent on these inmates than there ever is on their victims . Also apparently more sympathy and understanding too. That is not fair especially when their victims have been brutalised . They are not just locked up as punishment they are locked up to protect society . Staff deserve not to be hurt even other inmates deserve not to be hurt . Adult crime = adult time in an adult prison.

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    Mute Kal Ipers
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    Aug 20th 2015, 4:02 PM

    It is actually quite sad that somebody with direct experience is telling you what these children have experienced isn’t believed. Yet somebody who has prison guard friends telling him stories thinks he knows better. Guards in any prison system don’t know much about the people in their care. They will know what crime they committed but not their upbringing.
    As for the whole concept of saying others in the same social upbringing aren’t all convicts is a blinkered view. If it was true then there would be the same social distribution in prisons that are in society. The head of mountjoy has said the vast majority of inmates are from specific areas. It is simply the odds are against them. If it was just down to evil or not then social class would have no impact what so ever

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    Mute Kal Ipers
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    Aug 20th 2015, 4:27 PM

    Sod this, read the juvenile court reports for a month. If you consider these children as evil you have major problems and should get treatment

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    Mute Mick Jordan
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    Aug 20th 2015, 4:35 PM

    Kal. How little you know about Prison Officers. We deal with those juveniles that are now adults for years on end and we get to know each inmate very well. This may come as a surprise to you but for many adult convicts, the first person that they open up to is their Class Officer in Prison. It is they that they turn to for help and someone to talk to.
    As for coming from certain areas that is common across the world. But Gardai and Prison Officers also come from these same areas but yet they are on the opposite side of the fence. As I have said already many of these Juvenile Criminals come from homes where every member of the family have been and are criminals going back several generations. And that they themselves have been engaging in criminal activity for several years prior to being sent to Oberstown.

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    Mute Mick Jordan
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    Aug 20th 2015, 11:42 PM

    No. I dont hate the Job. I dont like the way it has turned over the years. I personally think that the pendulum gone in completely the wrong direction. Prison should be a place you dread, a place you most definitely don’t want to be incarcerated in, a place where even so much as thinking of assaulting a staff member you have you literally shitting yourself in fear.

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    Mute Maylena McEvoy
    Favourite Maylena McEvoy
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    Aug 21st 2015, 12:43 AM

    Todd you make some excellent points. It’s a pity more wouldn’t listen to you. And Mick Jordan, what would you do with your time if you didn’t have the prison to give out about! Sounds like you’re burnt out, maybe you need to get off that landing. As for prison being a place of terror, I’d hate to know what you’ve dreamt up!

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    Mute Mick Jordan
    Favourite Mick Jordan
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    Aug 21st 2015, 6:15 AM

    Maylena. Maybe actually working as an Officer for just six months on those landings may just give you a different perspective.

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    Mute Michael Sands
    Favourite Michael Sands
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    Aug 20th 2015, 12:50 PM

    So gobs….tes then…

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