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HEALTH MINISTER SIMON Harris has criticised the position of the National Association of General Practitioners in respect of the provision of abortion services.
The organisation, which represents over 2,000 members, held an emergency meeting to discuss the planned abortion legislation on Saturday.
They passed motions calling for an “opt-in” provision for doctors to provide abortion services, and said that onward referral of a patient should not be compulsory.
Asked about that stance on Morning Ireland today, Chairman of the NAGP Dr Andrew Jordan said doctors envisaged that the services would be provided at family planning clinics and at specific GP surgeries.
Asked what course of action he would advise a woman seeking an abortion should take if her local GP conscientiously objected to abortion and refused to refer her on, he said that Ireland was a small country.
“She will know in advance where the service is provided.”
He said there would be spread of the service all over the country and that he didn’t think the government envisaged that every GP in Ireland would be providing abortion services.
Jordan also called on the government to examine the legislation covering conscientious objection and referral in New Zealand, which he said appropriately addressed the issue.
Tweeting on Saturday night in the wake of the NAGP meeting Simon Harris said:
“Doctors will always be able to opt out & conscientious objection is a long standing principle in medicine & one which will be respected in new law BUT we #Repealedthe8th so we could care for women in our own country and that duty of care in terms of referral will definitely apply.”
In a further post this morning, just after Andrew Jordan’s Morning Ireland interview, Harris said:
“The idea of a woman in crisis sitting in front of her doctor & her doctor refusing to refer flies in face of care & compassion & is not reflective of doctors I know. People spoke & want women to be cared for. Conscientious objection -yes. No referral or info -no.”
Only 50 to 60 GPs attended Saturday’s meeting in Portlaoise. Jordan said the group as a whole was satisfied it could act on the motions passed as other members had also been consulted in recent weeks.
He said a number of surveys of Irish GPs had also been carried out.
Speaking to TheJournal.ie over the weekend a Cork-based GP said that provisions must be put in place to ensure no woman is “discriminated against” when the legislation is enacted.
Doctors for Choice founding member Dr Mary Favier said that over 50 Cork GPs and obstetricians had organised meetings to discuss abortion provision and how the rollout of services could be provided to all those seeking to avail of them.
She said that when the legislation is passed, women eligible to access these services should be able to regardless of where in the country they are or any disability they may have.
“There’s another group like this in Dublin, and another in the north-west that is starting to go well,” she said.
I’d expect we’ll have them in all the major population centres.
The expected legislation will allow terminations without restriction as to reason up to 12 weeks of pregnancy and in very limited circumstances thereafter, such as when the woman’s life is at risk, as outlined here.
Favier said that their argument was that these services, in many cases, could be “community provided”, and that a “significant part of it would be provided in general practice”.
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How he can mention care and compassion is beyond me , the man (and the system) don’t seem to have an ounce of either…
@Hardly Normal:
A few weeks ago Simon Harris and the HSE were under the microscope on the cervical cancer scandal. He was publicly exposed as being an incompetent minister and the way the dominos were falling it was quite obvious he was next in line.
The referendum on the 8th saved his bacon. He seized the opportunity for redemption with both hands. Simon reached out the hand of compassion to the women of Ireland, he paraded around the Dublin Castle celebrations like a rock star after a gig at Glastonbury, Simon was now the centre of attention, the saviour of women’s health, the Justin Trudeau of Irish feminism, signing autographs, embracing every selfie with enthusiasm, he was now a heartthrob to the Repeal movement, ‘Marry me’ they pleaded, overnight Simon was now the Man of the Century. Until Clare Daly put him in his place in Dail Eireann i.e.
Leo and Simon are career opportunists who will milk this for every ounce of political kudos they can.
@Jack McGready: I’LL keep it short after your rant ,Simon and Leo are great lads doing a brilliant job
@Jack McGready: Totally agree it’s all smokes and mirrors!
@Robert Harris: brilliant jobs for THEMSELVES, not for US..
@Jack McGready: Exceptionally well said. This man, his fellow cast of second rate actors, the director of this show will hopefully not be signed up for a second series by the electorate.
@Jack McGready: “A few weeks ago”, your troll account didn’t even exist. You created it to post on Referendum and Trump articles. I was hoping it might have disappeared by now.
@Jack McGready: what are you rabbiting on about? This article is concerned with providing a caring service to women in crisis, women will take to the streets again in their thousands, if there is any messing. Yes across the board to referrals..
@Jack McGready: Dear Coward, oops I mean Jack or Paddy or whatever, you and your rosary beads rattlers lost in 2015, you lost in 2018 and will lose again on the wrong side of history. Enjoy your misery. xxx
@helen walsh: I think you missed the point , it’s not an abortion issue it’s a competence issue. The cervical cancer scandal was the last straw for me , i have lost total faith in how the country is being run (didn’t have a huge amount to begin with) , these lads should be shown the door quickly and a total remodeling of the entire system has to take place.
@Robert Harris: you must be very healthy and not in any current need for medical treatment or any support from government. It might also be your as simple in the head as simple simon the monkey and simple Leo the organ grinder for simple simon the monkey. Next election people on waiting lists, people in addiction , people disabled, carers, lone parents , homeless people, over taxed property taxed Dublin people, etc will vote to show how simple Simon is. Followed by how out of touch Leo the organ grinder is with most of the population. Killing babies won’t save either of them. It all they talk about. Ignoring every thing else that their responsible for.
@Hardly Normal: to note fine Gael voted to withhold patient information from them in the event of an issue
@Robert Harris: Just Brilliant… via lobbying+bribes, a Citizen’s Assembly ‘Interviewed’ in advance, a fake Committee, Soros funded ‘Flights for Yes’, voting cards 4 Non-residents, Media Bullying, Agenda 21, Foreign NGO’s in charge of ballot boxes, SorosGrassRoots, Rigged. http://thefreedomsproject.com/irish-officials-linked-big-pharma-big-abortion/ … … … … … … …
@Hardly Normal: The Vultures have arrived (well-organized & premeditated),
named ‘Birth Havens’ no less… Leo & Simon are bribed Pawns, & the Referendum was ‘Rigged’.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/birth-haven-ireland-s-first-birth-centre-family-women#/
@helen walsh: Its a pity the same women wouldn’t take to the streets for abuse survivors, or for fairness and support to carers almost 50% whom are women that cannot get out to protest or supports and services for the most vulnerable in our community’s – we are all for care and compassion when it suits us, but we have a lot of women and men in this country that cannot afford to feed their kids or pay their mortgages because of people like what we have sitting in the Dail. We have one scandal after another and probably more to come and we just never learn we like the an addict waiting for the next fix and how quickly we forget – “Cervical Smear Scandal come to mind?
@Hardly Normal: It’s baffling, isn’t it? The Dali Lama of Irish politics!
He dose not know the meaning of compassion,but takes his instructions from the previous minister for health,who also could not solve the health crises,The whole lot of them have not got a clue,as to running a government,what experience has he had as ,regard to health issues,what is wrong in this government is ,that each department trows their opinion on other departments,they should keep their noses out of these departments,or it could be they have not got enough work to keep them busy,
with abysmal failure in health services under this government, with Leo and Simon Harris as previous and current ministers for health, they want to add more to their woes by promising heaven and earth to women. They campaigned for ‘choice’ for women to destroy their unborn at a whimp, and they are denying doctors the choice to abstain from destructive practice. I wonder.
That’s absolutely fine. Let GPs opt out and make a list of GPs that provide the service. The public can then decide if we choose to opt out of using the every day services of these GPs that decide not to provide the full range of legal healthcare to their patients.
@Peadar O’Comain: that’s all well and good in larger town and cities, but there will be plenty of girls in a crisis who are young, can’t drive and too scared to tell their families. These 50 or 60 GPs are just putting another wealth barrier on a service that most of the population want.
@Peadar O’Comainyes all patients including the unborn child peader…or did you forget about them again
@Ismise Máire: It’s already been decided that the unborn do not have a right to life.
@Ismise Máire: Nearly 70% voted this did you forget that?
@Ismise Máire: Unborn is not a child. It is an Embryo or Foetus.
@Peadar O’Comain: plenty of doctors already refuse to provide healthcare to women. A friend is currently doctor shopping to find someone to help treat her chronic illness. One GP has refused to renew q prescription and another flat out said they won’t deal with the chronic illness at any point.
@Rob Hunt: maybe the politicians should have had this all sorted pre referenda when they were making their promises
@Peadar O’Comain: exactly. Shop around people. GPs are private practice businesses.
@Ismise Máire: Be careful “child peader” sounds libelous
It was always going to be a GP lead service according to the minister. Doctors have always said they wanted an opt out clause. Which is fair enough if it means terminating another persons life. So surely their is a compromise without government getting into a slagging match with the very people who are going to provide the service.
@doorhandler: the optout is not the issue. It’s refusing to refer forwards is the problem. That’s not on.
@KEV: If their is a list on the HSE website or other appropriate information centers then it really is not an issue. Remember this is about choice and doctors who have a moral objection should not be forced to get involved on any level if that’s their choice. The minister had agreed nothing with them before the referendum.
@Jack McGready. Well said! You couldnt have said it better! Simon Harris is more than lucky to be still in a job. Leo is in the same boat
@doorhandler: A person has to be registered with a GP to be able to avail of their services. If a woman is pregnant & wants an abortion she cannot just go to another GP.
@Slim Shady. I think you need a fact check on that. But if it is true, which I doubt, it’s something that needs to be changed.
@doorhandler: I think you need a reality check. Go see for yourself.
@Slim Shady: not necessarily – that only applies to free visits for medical card holders. A lot of GPs will take non-registered patients willing to pay. And there are plenty if ‘walk-in clinics’ in Ireland.
@EvieXVI: So can you see a GP without giving personal details? Obviously a walk in clinic is different.
Maybe Simon should have talked & consulted with the GP’s prior to holding a referendum instead of trying to bully people. He is going back on a lot of his previous statements when it comes to things like conscientious objection & highlighting the lies of the yes campaign.
@DPentony: you lost move on
@DPentony: So you think that the GPs of Ireland should get to decide whether we have a referendum or not?
@DPentony: move on and stop looking backwards, an Irish trait sadly.
@DPentony: So you are saying that 40 or so doctors should have prevented the democratic rights of 1.4 million people.
@Paula Doran: No but Harris etc had referendum with only a vague idea of how the system would function. Really poor planning.
@Robert Harris: We still have freedom of speech & the right to an opinion though, for now anyway.
@Gus Sheridan: The 3/4 million people who voted no will be as quiet as those who campaigned against the 8th amendment back in the 80’s.
@Robert Harris: the yes voters were fooled into thinking this would be GP led between the girl and her doctor. Simple Simon said yet he never spoke to the doctors and asked them. Seem abortion on demand with Marie stokes clinics are on the way. Simon a simple bully he gives no attention or any time to his disasterous failing as a health minister and this is just another one. He knows because he legislating for no protests outside abortion clinics or centres. No voters were not follows her enough to vote yes. Killing babies on demand on the way.
@Robert Harris: It was ‘RIGGED’ from A to Z. ‘Yesers’ know it 2…but are pretending not to Notice.
http://www.lifenews.com/2018/06/05/irish-voters-file-lawsuits-challenging-results-of-referendum-legalizing-abortion-allege-massive-voter-fraud/
So if another patient has HIV and the doctor didn’t approve of the way they got HIV or it goes against their religion, can they refuse to refer them?
@Deborah Behan: no, in one case the doctor believes a life is being terminated. You and I may not agree but let’s not dismiss logic so early in the morning.
@Deborah Behan: are you seriously suggesting that being pregnant is the same as contracting hiv?
@Deborah Behan: Moronic statement, seriously moronic.
@Deborah Behan: absolutely. I know someone that has been refused referrals and treatment for chronic illness that just occurred. This has happened with multiple doctors. They get away with it because they are protecting the woman’s fertility by not giving her treatment or medication… Even though pregnancy isn’t wanted and would make things far far worse.
hardly a fair comment Deborah, we are talking about the deliberate termination of the unborn life. Not even the hardiest pro-lifer will refuse to treat a post abortion patient;
I would with all my heart treat them, BUT never ever participate in abortion, even as an accomplice. HIV is an infection, we treat stis/stds without prejudice. A doctor should never engage in deliberate termination of life. Period.
It’s crazy that any doctor thinks it’s ok to refuse to provide medical services and then also refuse to refer the patient to a doctor that would provide these services with the excuse that “Ireland is a small country”.
It’s a big assumption that the woman will know what GP to goto next, also are the doctors refusing services still going to charge their 60e consultancy fee?
I have no problem with a doctor refusing to provide the service, but then they must refer the patient to a doctor that will.
@Barry Somers: I do have an issue with GPs refusing services if they have HSE contracts. If you’re not willing to provide all the approved services then you shouldn’t get paid. If they want to opt out of certain services they also need to opt out of paid HSE contracts
@Barry Somers: the ‘medical service’ results in the ending of a life. What’s crazy about doctors not wishing to part take in the provision of a service that deliberately ends a life? Harris is such an advocate of choice, he should give doctors the right to choose as to whether they wish to have anything got to do with providing an abortion on demand service. Pity he didn’t think about this before.
@Karen Wellington: Would forcing GPs to offer a new service not constitute a change to their existing contracts? In which case, they would be more than entitled to block any such move.
@False 9: An abortion does not entail the ending of a life. A fetus is detached from a woman’s womb and is removed. Nobody dies. The fetus is not alive.
@False 9: I don’t think that’s the issue, in fairness. No Dr is forced to carry out a procedure they don’t agree with but they cannot refuse to refer on to another Dr who will. That seems fair to all parties?
@Philip Kavanagh: medicine is constantly evolving, new procedures and treatment become available and others are discontinued, doctor have to continue training for the entirety of their careers to stay abreast of modern medicine. The contracts reflect these inevitable changes.
I don’t object to GPs opting out of providing certain services, I just take issue with them being paid for providing said services. The HSE can barely afford to waste money on exorbitant executive salaries let alone pay GPs to not do their jobs, there’d be more merit in burning the money to heat hospitals.
@CrabaRev: We’ve gone from the foetus is not a child to the foetus is not even alive.
Life begins at conception. Call it a foetus, a bunch of cells or a hat for all I care but to deny that it is even alive is either really dumb or really sinister.
An abortion means the ending of a life no matter what fantasy you concoct to ease your own mind.
@Karen Wellington: Nobody should be paid for a job they don’t do. But who said that GPs would be paid a flat fee for offering terminations (irrespective of whether or not they do any)?
@Philip Kavanagh: they’re paid a fee for accepting medical card holders as patients regardless of the specific treatment being sought, if they refuse to offer all of the services/procedures covered by a medical card they shouldn’t be in contract with the HSE. Essentially they should opt out of the medical card scheme if they’re not willing to comply.
@Karen Wellington: abortion is not a medical service it a killing service. As a right doctors are not allowed kill any thing so your muppet comment and commenters need to understand that. Well woman centres will end up delivering the killing service and it won’t just be for hard cases it will be for abortion on demand. Very soon people will be walking by killing abortion clinics.
@Robin Tobin: you ok?
I actually feel like a GP refusing to provide you care and furthermore telling you ‘you’re on your own’ is so judgmental and cruel in the midst of what’s already a crisis for the poor woman.
@Sinead Mooney: Sorry, don’t do that here. Here’s an embarrassment pill. Don’t forget to pay for your visit on the way out.
All CO’s should have a signage to indicate.
Sorry I can’t murder your baby, but I know somebody who will here’s their number. How on earth is that conscientious objection?
@Stephen Mc Elligott: dude we’ve already had the referendum haven’t you heard.
@Stephen Mc Elligott: The country spoke, you and the small minded minority were overuled, get over it.
If a doctor does not want to provide abortion or any other service thats their decision but they should be compelled by law to refer that patient elsewhere.
@Bunny Johnson: ”The People have spoken” as if that somehow makes abortion ok. I’m always thrown back by the idea that somehow democracy and the majority vote is becomes the moral compass of a country.
The very fact that the ”majority” voted in Hitler in Germany just goes to show you should never use democracy as a measuring stick for morality nor can we underestimate the stupidity of people in large numbers. “Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.”
”Compelled by law”. Nobody is compelled by any law to do what they don’t want regardless of the circumstances surrounding that.
@Stephen Mc Elligott: A fetus is not a baby. it is not alive. it has no brain, it has not sentient. An everybody is compelled by the law. Is it okay not to pay your taxes because you don’t want to. And before you come out with the predictable “are you saying abortion is the same as….”, the principle of not obeying the law is the same.
@Stephen Mc Elligott: Hitler received 43.91% of the votes in the federal election in March 1933.
@Stephen Mc Elligott: hello!!! It’s 2018, ~Google~ people. Use telephone. “Hello GP surgery, do you offer abortion services?” No, ok, I’ll call another number I found on GOOGLE
@Stephen Mc Elligott: You would be saying the opposite if your side won. It is what it is and get over it.
@CrabaRev: perhaps you should go back to school
A foetus has a brain. It is an immature form of human life but it is a unique human life nonetheless. It has the capacity to react to its surroundings, is this not a degree of sentience?
There is a difference in meaning between ‘allowed’ and ‘compelled’, can I suggest you look it up in a dictionary.
@Stephen Mc Elligott: So you are comparing 66.4% of our population to nazi supporters and also calling them stupid?There is the breathtaking arrogance that lost the antichoice side the referendum.You lost,get over it!!
I believe they are taking the stance as they can’t care and be compassionate under their current situations. They did tell the minister and the general public all this before the referendum but were ignored. Nobody wanted to hear about logistics or resources and staffing issues. It was let’s rush this in with no plan.
Aside from wrongs/rights of GPs recommendations, why the hell did he not ENGAGE them fully and properly BEFORE referendum and before now??? He wants it “GP led” and basically ignored them??? Some consultation ( excuse pun) in a democracy…
@Margate: The referendum was about removing from the constitution the ludicrous article equating the rights of a fetus with that of an adult woman. There couldn’t have been any more consultation on that. The most senior obstetricians in the country were totally behind it
This is the start of a negotiation by the GPs BEFORE the bill is drafted. Its the bill that will have the details of how any service operates.
@Margate: why is a referral required in the first place if you’re going to see another physician. Just remove this area from the money scam system that we call ‘referral’.
Archbishop Harris is quick with the belt of the crozier and the swooning flock will baa baa.
@Martello Mulligan: me thinks you got up too early this morning
@Robert Harris: Or hasn’t gone to bed.
@Robert Harris: Indeed youthinks rightly on the time of day. The essence of the problem with the old Ireland was that people were not allowed to dissent from the worldview directed by the church. Let’s be careful not to set up another worldview that won’t tolerate any deviance. Harris should consult and discuss before declaiming.
@doorhandler: baa baa
Abortion is the quick fix for Simon Harris, not dealing with the crisis pregnant mothers do find themselves in eg financially strapped, parental or partner pressure to abortion, abortion doesn’t halt domestic violence either. Harris isn’t exactly ‘pro-choice’ either if he isn’t going to FORCE GP’s against their freedom of conscience to refer mothers to agencies or doctors who are pro-abortion.
@Marion Murphy: Hi Mars.Still spouting off the same old tired rhetoric,which is so 2013/14/15/16/2017.Have you got any new material ?
Unacceptable. This is all well and good in Dublin and other cities and big towns but if you live out in the sticks and your GP refuses both to treat you or refer you, your options are extremely limited.
There was literally just an article on the postcode lottery of access to cancer screening and other types of care. I find it disgusting that GPs are talking about intentionally extending such an injustice.
@Seán J. Troy: This is the start of a negotiation. I don’t thinks it’s going to have any effect on anything except cost to the HSE. The vast majority of doctors will supply these services to their patients. A negligible minority may refuse to refer, but the medical council will deal with them.
@CrabaRev:
That might be true. But the language is important. The fact that there’s an opt in with a potential list is completely wrong. There should be an opt out with a list of those who refuse service. This is a basic medical service, you can’t start with an opt in premise. It should be the other way around.
GPs that wish to opt out should have this option.Simon Harris appears to be bullying the GPs.He is not of a medical background. He must understand that those who conscientiously object have,and feel ,true compassion for their two patients,and therefore can not recommend abortion as an option as they truly feel this is not the compassionate response to a woman or her baby in crisis.We are all about democracy , choice,human rights to freedom of beliefs .We must acknowledge and respect theirs.when they entered medical practice,their aim was to do no harm.I would not be able to live with myself if I knew, by my actions ,or by my assistance,I was responsible for ending a little boy or girls life.In the name of compassion.
So, my body, my choice..OK
My General Practice, my choice..Bad
Take a run and jump harris.
I don’t think that people understand what conscientious objection means. Why would someone who is a CO refuse to provide a service but then turn around and tell the patient that this is where you go to get an abortion service that I object to? There is a simple way around this and that is for the HSE to provide a list of GP’ and centres that provide abortion services to anyone seeking to avail of them. This horseshit that “oh people might not be able to drive to them” is nonsense. If you are desperate enough to have an abortion then you will find a way.
@Value Bazzar: people understand perfectly what it is.
A lot of anti-choice people here. If a doctor realises how abhorrent abortion is and wants to have no part in it that is to be admired. People seem to think it’s okay to bully the doctor? Most of them know that abortion is not healthcare, the exact opposite in fact.
The dictator Harris has no time for freedom of conscience (which is a constitutional right). This shows how intolerant (and dishonest in their campaigning) Simon Harris and Leo Varadkar are.
@Crabarev: I know very well what the Ref was about from a Constitutional perspective, and that’s all very fine from an enactment point of view. But you cannot go through all of this without the Process on the ground being FULLY thought out and ironed out with the relevant Stakeholders in advance also. With respect to Obstreticians etc it won’t be them(with prob some exceptions) that will be carrying out the ‘process’ ; plus Mr Harris repeatedly stated it was to be ‘ GP led’. He did NOT think this through or engage them sufficiently, simple as. Now, making veiled threats about their Constitutional responsibilities etc is very inappropriate and not good practice.
Irish solution. There’s a 9 month waiting list for abortion services
@ed w: now that’s the comment of the year. Well done sir
@ed w: There are also 9 month waiting lists for thousands of people struggling to hold onto Life. Don’t lose sight of this.
@Margate: oh I know try getting cancer screening services if your male and under 60 GP looks at you like to your from another planet. There is very little primary health care in ylthis country.
I can imagine a future fudge where a judgmental doctor in say Kerry will refer a woman seeking lawful treatment to a doctor in Longford or Sligo.
@Larry Doyle: what about judgmental Simon Harris wanting to force GP’s with a conscience to refer mothers onto pro-abortion doctors?
@Marion Murphy: are you saying that those GP’s are not in favour of abortion in any circumstances ? How do you know this ?
If you didn’t know better you’d believe Harris and his FG colleagues were big proponents of care and compassion! Laughable.
Deliberately and intentionally killing an innocent unborn child is something offensive to God.
If GPs don’t want to go the Hell they should be free to save both Mom and Baby.
have your say