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Updated 10.20am
CATHOLIC MARRIAGE COUNSELLING organisation Accord is to lose some of its state funding – but Tusla claims it has nothing to do with the upcoming marriage referendum.
The organisation, which received €1.9 million from Tusla last year, is to lose €378,000 of that this year.
Speaking to the Irish Catholic, Bishop of Elphin Dr Kevin Doran questioned whether the move is “part of a wider policy of the Government” to withdraw funding from Catholic agencies, something Tusla denies strongly.
The Irish Catholic linked the withdrawal of funding with the upcoming referendum on marriage, claiming that the move “gives weight to fears” that agencies which do not support the “government agenda on the redefinition of marriage will be starved of funding”.
‘Curious timing’
Speaking on Newstalk Breakfast Accord President Bishop Denis Nulty also said he thought the timing of the cuts was “curious”. He said he received a letter about the funding decision on 7 May.
Nulty said last year the service gave 45,000 hours of counselling to more than 15,000 couples, adding that the cuts would be “a huge blow” to the service it offers. He called for the cuts to be reversed.
And in a statement this morning, Mothers and Fathers Matter – the main group campaigning for a No vote in the marriage referendum – said it also believed the decision was linked to the 22 May vote, calling the cut “petty and vindictive”.
‘No connection’
Chief Executive of Barnardo’s, Fergus Finlay, who was also on Newstalk programme this morning, said it was unfair to say Accord’s funding cuts had anything to do with the upcoming referendum.
He said his own charity, which has been actively campaigning for a Yes vote, also had its funding cut. “It doesn’t make sense to me,” he said.
Meanwhile, Tulsa’s Gordan Jeyes told RTÉ’s Morning Ireland this morning there was “no connection whatsoever to other events. There was no government discussion on this at all”.
He also said Bishop Doran’s comments were “utterly disingenuous”.
Jeyes said the agency had to “live within our means”. He explained that the move came about because pre-marriage courses carried out by Accord do not fall under their stated goal of child protection, but counselling for married couples does.
He said Tulsa offers targeted services, and it was prioritising child protection.
He added that the agency valued the work of Accord and will continue to support them.
A statement from Tulsa stated that Children’s Minister James Reilly, who Doran accused of targeting Catholic hospitals over abortion while he was Health Minister, had no role in the budget.
While Tusla values the work of marriage preparation courses and recognises their value for the long-term benefit of children it was necessary at time of limited resources to prioritise those services operating more directly at the front line.
A number of services offered by Accord match this criteria and will be funded by Tusla in 2015.
Sources indicate that the amount paid to Accord will account for more than a quarter of the Tusla budget for counselling, believed to be somewhere around the €6 million mark.
Financial situation
The Irish Catholic reports that the letter sent to Accord would be retrospective and take effect from 1 January. This €348,000 loss has, the paper says, left them in a precarious financial situation.
Tusla say that the letter came this late in the year due to a delay in sign off for their budget by Reilly.
Accord runs 55 centres across Ireland which offer counselling and advice services for married couples within a Catholic ethos. Its last available annual report, from 2011, said that it had received €1.09 million from the family support agency and run at a deficit of over €7,000.
Those attending courses and counselling paid over €311,000. Accord paid out over €1.1 million in remuneration.
It also receives funding from the HSE, the Irish Catholic Bishops’ Conference and the DHSSPS and relevant trusts in Northern Ireland.
Originally published 12.01am. Additional reporting Christina Finn and Daragh Brophy.
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Why should Catholic agencies receive State money anyway? They should consider themselves lucky they’ve been in receipt as long as they have been already.
Why should Catholics pay taxes to the state anyway? Do we no longer live in a state which collects taxes from citizens to fund certain projects that are beneficial to those citizens and society as a whole?
This valuable service which provides couples with pre-marriage courses has already suffered significant cuts over the past 5 years. The PC liberal agenda has obviously dictated that Catholic church should be severely punished for it’s opposition to homosexual marriage.
Remember PC liberals are extremely tolerant of freedom of choice, once it conforms to their narrow agenda.
Because for all the bad they’ve done, they’ve also been our state for a long time, and not done too bad. They ran our schools, our hospitals, our care homes, our orphanages (and obviously some unwilling orphanages), our communities often. I’m no fan of the church, but are we that sure the state will perform better in these areas than the church has done? Quite a few hospitals could do with a matron!
Ah Ellie, Enoch’s friend. I’ll give a begrudging nod of respect to you guys. You’re really upping your game. The amount of new profiles you’ve got going at the minute must take a lot of managing. You must have the fastest fingers in the land, knocking out those green and red thumbs when suits. You’re on the ball alright. You’re win at all costs mentally is clear, you’ll do whatever needs to be done to ensure those pesky gays can’t marry – eh?
Because not just Catholics pay taxes. And if all Catholics wish to fund Accord they can do so privately, not by using the tax net, in effect turning it into a mandatory donation for all taxpayers.
@its all good. Elle or Ellen is actually Evert Bopps friend which I suppose makes her Enochs by default.
@egghead, clearly you’re a fan of the church. Oh you guys! You’re letting your cover slip. You’re giving the game away. Look, when you’ve a load of fake profiles going, it’s important you don’t look like you’re having a conversation with yourself. You’ve done well on other threads, but this one is just lazy.
The Catholic Church shouldn’t be punished for its opposition to gay marriage. It should be punished for 1,000 odd years of rape, murder and misogyny. It has done far more bad than good to the citizens of this island down through the ages. Time for the vile institution that it is to be put in its place.
Ellie many are only nominal Catholics. Only 35% turn up for Mass every Sunday.
I agree. Our hospitals could definitely do with some nuns in charge!
Ellie if we were not forced to baptise our kids to get them in to school their would be alot less Catholics I can guarantee that. I would much rather any money the state gives them go towards our ever growing homeless problem instead of helping the church hide child abusing priests.
What did theRomans ever do for us…..
Catholics should pay taxes to their church, if they want their church to provide services as in other countries! Why should I have to subvent a Catholic lifestyle?
Because you live in a catholic country George. You will get a big reminder on the morning of May 23rd.
Because you live in a catholic country George. You will get a big reminder on the morning of May 23rd.
I thought the referendum wasn’t about religion Joe? That’s what the No side keep saying.
Last time I heard the expression ‘Catholic country’, it was in relation to the death of Savita Palanavar! Have we learnt nothing?
Enoch, we live in a Republic! You will wake up to that realisation on May, 23rd.
Not in Irish jurisdiction it won’t.
Never worked in the 20′s
Won’t work here and now
Vote No (Daniel says so for the sake of the tea ladies)
Biscuits not Arse.
Vote No, Defeat Enda & Eamon’s referendum.
Maria – it is not nuns that our hospitals need, it is proper funding allocated to the right areas. It is an insult to the nurses and other staff to suggest that nuns would clean up hospitals, what nonsense. Have we already forgotten what nuns did in this country, will we ever learn.
Joe you’re not even remotely capable of iterating your real reason for voting no are you? It is utterly dishonest to pretend this is about giving two fingers to the government. A no vote would negatively affect a grand total of three of them – John Lyons, Leo Varadkar and Jerry Buttimer. A no vote would also have a devastating effect tens of thousands of ordinary citizens who are just as angry with the government as you are. Vote yes to give those people the happiness we all deserve.
Vote YES! Prove once and for all that Ireland is an inclusive society! That Ireland cherishes all her people equally! Don’t let the scaremongering of the fire and brimstone brigade blind you to what you are being asked to vote on May, 22: “Marriage may be contracted in accordance with law by two persons without distinction as to their sex”.
All Government Parties support this vote.
All Children Protection Agencies support this vote.
Many members of the RCC, including Sister Stan, support this vote.
All Trade Unions support this vote.
All Employer Organisations support this vote.
The list is endless!!!
The birth mother of a child can choose the type of family she wishes to adopt her child. Only SIX children were adopted in Ireland by non-family members in 2014.
Surrogacy is a bigger issue for heterosexual couples, due to the sheer size of heterosexuals in the population. A child brought forward through surrogacy is ALWAYS a planned and wanted child.
Vote YES for equality for your fellow Irishman and Irishwoman!
The church doesn’t pay taxes AND they get state funding?
That’s mad, Ted.
I despise the term ‘Catholic Country’. We are supposed to be a secular republic and the citizens of such should be treated equally under the law. The fact that the majority of the population are Catholic is irrelevant.
Totally wrong reason to vote No Joe, if your going to be bigoted enough to vote No do it because you oppose the referendum and not because you dont like the government.
I see you’re still a soft “Yes”, Joe.
Interestingly, no one has commented on Barnardos cut in subvention and Barnardos is a Children’s Organisation: once again, the Catholic Church seeks to place itself as the victim.
Why do we so often get the feeling that in words the Catholic Church asserts care of children, but in actions it is often found to be wanting.
I’d like to see the % cuts applied to both, and indeed others to see if there is a targeting going on as the bishop claims there is… I wouldn’t be quick to comment without those facts in the style he is doing so if I were him.
Hurler – Fergus Finay was on the radio this morning stating the cuts were very much in line with those of accord. Personally I would prefer to see greater cuts to Accord than have 1c cut from Barnados, after all it is all about the children, is it not?
Stephanie a future John Lyons, Leo Varadkar and Jerry Buttimer may not have a mum or dad if we vote yes.
Do really think this is giving these kids equality? http://www.essexstylemagazine.co.uk/lies-lies-more-lies-about-barrie-drewitt-barlow/
Really? Or is it putting the right of adult, first? Poor kids.
Maybe 2/3 or whatever number of people in a relationship can give ‘love’ and ‘affection’ but what concerns me most is the identity issue – people not knowing where they come from, their history, who their biological kin is.
Yes we are the ones trying to force our religious beliefs on others who don’t share them.
Ellie, everyone has to pay taxes to the state, regardless if of their religion.
In Germany they pay a Christian tax (if they are Christians of course). Bring in a catholic tax and we won’t be long about seeing how many people are actually believers.
How can a country have a religion?
Then the church should start paying tax into the pot imstead of just taking from it. Everyone pays taxes but less and ladd people are active catholics today.
Halapanavar.
Dave do you think gay people are waiting for our permission to have kids? It already happens so why not give those kids the stability of being brought up in a married household. As others have said before me, Barnardos, ISPCC etc all support the YES campaign because it is what’s best for children, simple as that!
Joe was a soft yes last week. Judging by how far he has come I reckon he’ll be a Young Earth Creationist by the time the Referendum is here.
Accord charge couples up to 70 euro per visit also
And….
Marie
Actually… they charge according to what couples can pay…
So they take ‘donations’ ? If there anything like the rest of the catholic infrastructure Id imagine they’re doing ok from ‘donations’.
Any word or DOB and site serve?
Why would anyone need to see a Catholic marriage councilor the religion has no basis in a modern society, you will only get their warrped view on your marriage anti contraception etc. We also need to take religion out of schools if you want to tell your kids fairy tails do it on your own time.
Anybody can go to a counsellor in Accord, not just Catholics. My friend went with her partner because they couldn’t afford to see a counsellor privately. He is Irish, she is Indian and they “donated” €10 every second week because that was all they could afford. They had an hour long session every week for over 9 months and their religion or lack of never came up. The service is really important for couples who need help and can’t afford it. It’s easy to criticise because it’s church run but there are no alternatives at the minute.
Andrea
I also know of people who have used this most excellent service. Unfortunately there are many God hating / Catholic hating fools on this website who will never see any of the good work done by the church.
@Andrea, in fairness the article makes it clear that they are not losing their entire funding. So they should still offer marriage counselling. What they are loosing funding for is the pre-marriage courses that many churches require couples to attend before they will perform a ceremony for them. And to be honest, after talking to a number of couples that attended these, the couples always described them as complete nonsense and a bit of a scam.
Can’t say I’m sorry to see the government cut funding for that.
Talk about throwing their toys out of the pram! In case they hadn’t noticed there’s been cuts left, right and centre over the last few years. They’re only lucky they weren’t cut sooner. Blaming the referendum is low indeed.
Tony, children gain great benefit from Barnardoes and they have also had their funding cut. Better they should work with all the charities, Yes or No supporters alike, to reverse the cuts. Far better than playing the victim card just to gain traction in the Referendum. That is cynical and grubby.
‘Chief Executive’ of Barnados…. He’s getting some wedge no doubt..
The pre-marriage course is required by anyone wishing to have a church wedding. Which is fair enough like, given you want to partake in their marriage rite.
As for the cut, well, seeeing as Barnardos, campaigning for a yes vote, also suffered a funding reduction, i think the conspiracy theories can be put to bed. But that won’t stop IONA from being the misleading/lying organisation that they are.
Barnardos pay him 88k. Not ridiculous for a CEO I would think
Of a charity?
God hating?? Do you hate Thor? You can’t hate something that doesn’t exist. I don’t hate Catholics, my family are still Catholics although they don’t actually believe it’s real. I am however opposed to their handling of child abuse in the church, their stance on Homosexuality and their treatment of women as less than men. Call it hate if you like but hating something doesn’t affect anyone but yourself so it’s a waste of time. Yes the church does some good work but that will always be in the shadow of their 19th century ethos.
Richard what has been the benifits of contraception?
Are you for real?
What? Is that a real question? If it is I’ll answer it but just want to check..
Of a charity that deals with just 9000 cases a year. 88k is fairly modest considering. Rehab may of been corrupt but they start at 140k and use to go to 240k
@Tony: It’s hard to hate something when you don’t even believe in it? I simply don’t like (any) religion and its follower’s dictating to society about how the rest of us live our life.
“The state shall now endow any religion” – Irish Constitution
That is reason enough not to fund a religious counseling service. I’m absolutely outraged that my tax money is going not only to a religious organization, but to one that well afford to run it’s own services, courses that are a joke even among staunch Catholics. We should pull all funding to all religions for this kind of thing, or before we know it the Muslims will be in here demanding we fund courses for young girls on their ‘honor’ etc
Is it 2015? or 1971?
We were happy for the Church to keep our education and medical services together for decades though when it suited?
That’s not all they did Onprz.
Paid for at taxpayers expense. Yes how generous the Church was…
Catholics are not ‘staunch’
That’s Protestants you mean.
Catholics are devout.
And it suited the church right down to the ground to run all of those. Look how they’re dragging their feet over divesting schools.
Even if you believe their running of the schools and hospitals was advantageous (a highly dubious proposition in itself), they were doing us no favours. It was precisely because they viewed it as advantageous to the Church and maintaining its power and influence over society.
We owe them nothing. Actually based on the amounts in abuse claims the State has paid on their behalf, I’m pretty sure we owe them less than nothing.
It’s not just the church dragging its feet. A lot of parents voted against losing the catholic ethos in their schools. We live in a democracy, if the greater number people voted against it their wishes have to be accepted!
Maria, it doesnt even matter if a majority in an area want their school to be Catholic. When you only cater for the majority you are discriminating against the minority. Eg. A majority in Alabama preferred racial segregation for years, it is still discrimination. Why should any taxpayer be forced to send their child to a religiously “ethosed” school against their conscience when there is no practical alternative provided? If even one Catholic was forced to send their child to a school that declared on a daily basis that there is no god, there would be outrage I can assure you.
A lot of bloody al la carts
You have a point Maria, but people often vote against change and go with the status quo. The state should not be subsidising the indocrination of children into religion as it does at present. If parents feel so strongly about religious indocrination then it should be done after school or at home.
The study of world religions should only be presented as an elective subject in secondary school. Children need new core subjects such as coding or philosophy to be presented at primary level.
The church does not run any of those things anymore, even private schools today (most of them) are funded by the state mostly.
Catholic extremist?
Why should someone be able to council marriage who cannot marry in the first place.
It’s as arbitrary as the government funding me to council teenage girls about the menstruation cycle and what it first feels like.
A: I’m not a registered professional
B I’m a man who doesn’t physically deal with a menstruation cycle.
Pardon the pun but, preaching to the wrong choir
What a dumb question , may as well have asked ‘should a male gynaecologist not attend to the birth of a child just because he can’t get pregnant’ ?.
I was trolling, my bad lol .. 1st time doing it. wanted to see how it went.
counsel
Maybe spell properly before you preach
spelling has very little to do with preaching !
Ian White
Have you ever been in marital trouble and spoke to other married friends and realised they know f all either?
Ian White..
First of all there are many lay people in Accord who counsel..
Secondly did you ever go to married couples with a marital problem. I did. And guess what? Married people aren’t experts at marriage either. In fact most of us haven’t a clue. We just muddle along.
The Catholic bigots are out in force
Is the ‘no’ crowd going to link abortion now to SSM? I’d have more respect for someone who just said I don’t like queers, rather than this non-debate on SSM due to the ‘no’ side bringing everything except the kitchen sink into the mix. They are purposefully confusing issues because they have no arguments against SSM, except…..? Don’t forget, due to the natural size of the heterosexual population in society, surrogacy will be procured by many more heterosexuals. Abortion, the birth mother can decide the type of family which should receive her child!
The tea Sinéad, where’s the tea??????
Ah there is no need to red thumb James.. its a joke between us.. Isn’t that right James
Liberté – on this site, virtually pro choice person I have seen is a huge advocate of the yes side – no coincidence when the two are mildly linked. Its the sheep-think of the left.
As opposed to the sheep think of the right?
Ah Sinéad, you remembered!!!! I’m welling up now……… :(
Ian the councillors are professional lay people
As opposed to the brainless acceptance of the most of the NO side chasing their bishop’s skirtends.
Didn’t the bishops threaten to pull out of the civil part of marriage on more than one occasion ? Now their throwing a hissy because a state agency is redirecting funds towards frontline protection of children and basically giving them what they want ? Protection of children and less interference in church matters .
Oh yeah . I forgot its the money that matters to these guys.Always the money.
Eh, ACCORD will continue to receive funding of €1.6 million this year from the State!
Perhaps they should just get a bit better at budgeting.
The other big story today is that the No Campaign has its first Celebrity voter – Dublin GAA’s Ger Brennan who writes about his opposition to the Marriage Referendum in the Indo.
Which is all well and fine, but:
What Ger Brennan failed to disclose is that he is a school chaplain and holds a degree in theology from Maynooth University.
The Irish Catholic has written about him at length here: http://www.irishcatholic.ie/article/blessed-gift-gab
The Roman Catholic Church can fund Accord out of its own resources so that the counselling continues to have a Roman Catholic ethos.
Same sex couples may find that such counselling services are unavailable to them.
We need Catholic weather forecasters, Catholic Chefs and Catholic bankers.
But the Catholic Bankers took a fortune of leading IRISH Business people to restore the Pope’s chapel in Rome – the boys went bust – couldn’t repay and the taxpayer got the bill and Nama and the Pope got a new shiny chapel – and the place dripping with gold already !
..only a matter of time before we have the daily, disingenuous, “I was voting yes until I saw this” arguments.
Before the Catholic folk begin to take offense at us all bashing the church here it’s not their position on marriage most of us are annoyed with, it’s that they are getting state money at all. They don’t even do real counseling it’s quackery, they’ll never tell you anything (Even if it’s good for you) that contradicts catholic ethos
I might be wrong here but did Fianna Fail not do a deal with the Catholic Church regarding the abuse of children and the church got off lightly regarding compensation, so maybe the kitty isn’t bare just yet.
That was the soft deal negotiated by Dr. Michael Woods and even on that soft deal the religious orders reneged on payments after a few formulaic apologies.
Ryan, that’s not true at all. The counsellors in Accord are private counsellors who donate a small portion of their time to help couples who can’t afford to see counsellors privately. I know 2 couples who used their services and religion never came up. They went for very specific reasons and that’s what they talked about. There are plenty of reasons to criticise the church but this is not one of them. This service is vital for financially pressed couples and until there is an alternative, their funding should remain intact. I know for a fact that one of my friends would have had absolutely no way of paying for counselling services privately. Accord saved their relationship, they weren’t married at the time but they’re still together now 7 years later. One half of that couple was Indian, the other was Irish but far from a practicing Catholic. It made absolutely no difference to the treatment they received.
Andrea Rock Massey you keep hitting the nail on the head and your comments describe the workings of Accord exactly… well done
She keeps describing the workings that will still be funded.
But why do the Catholic church have any say in Marriage Counselling – Not one of them have any experience of the strains and stresses of marriage …
I don’t go to a dairy farmer for advice on my sheep – I go to a sheep farmer !
Whilst I was like many of us brought up a Catholic, I have long since rejected that faith so my comment does not follow an agenda.
It does seem to me that there is a deliberate deconstruction of the old infrastructure that once bonded church and state. Our schools and hospitals were run by the church as a charitable concern since the foundation of the state as we did not have sufficient resources or a developed economy to fund them at the time. Much good work was carried out by many good people in the church over the years which has been largely overlooked in favour of the abuse narrative. This is the latest action in a death by a thousand cuts strategy. It is now seen as extremely negative and backward to be Catholic. There seems to be a growing intolerance sometimes bordering on hatred from some quarters towards this institution which once defined our nation.
Whilst I welcome a new enlightenment based on justice and human dignity, I’m not sure that is the direction we are heading. I cannot help but feel a degree of sadness at the loss of the positive contributions made by the church and concern over what we will replace it with.
Replace it with your own spirit and then you see that the good guys are probably not as good as you think !
Thye knew and they kept their mouth shut for the privilege and power they commaded with their Latin Voodoo !
I can only speak for myself:
1. As an LGBT person the hate seems to flow TOWARDS me (from the CC) not FROM me.
When I was 15 and starting to seriously question my sexuality, I got a book from a priest at our school on Catholic social dogma which described me as an abnormal and unnatural ”aberration” so I won’t hear any nonsense about intolerance from them thank you very much
2. I don’t want religions of any form funded by the state – that’s not hate or intolerance thats a policy view
3. It angers me when money that could be spent on hospitals and schools and cops is spent on quack psychology
None of that is intolerance or hate.
Nobody chooses to be gay. We are born gay.
Is bocht an scéal é ag breathnú ar an Eaglais Chaiticleach atá ag éirigh níos cosúla le cult éigean in aghaidh an lae agus na séipéail ag follamhú go tréan. Thaithnigh an eaglais liomsa agus mé ag fás aníos agus téim ann fós. Ach tar éis an fheachtais seo in aghaigh an reifrinn tá duine amháin eile caillte acu. Is mór an trua é mar tá gá le teachtaireacht an ghrá agus an umhail níos mó ná riamh. “Bíodh grá i do chroí is déan do rogha ruda” Naomh Auguistín
Vótáil Grá
Vótáil Tá
And we don’t hate you Ugly for deciding to be hetero. Hmm? When was that exactly?
Ugly Truth should be named Ugly Lies. After hearing his venom, I no longer pay any heed to his warpedand sick views, He is the price we pay for freedom of expression. The only consolation is that Ugly Truth would not be tolerated in expressing these views outside of these anonymous fora. In real life, he would be ashamed to put his real identity behind his noxious views. His views of gay people are malign and shows what motivates a certain sector, the rump of the No vote.
Don’t forget, like Fr Jack, they hated the poor lol
Choice?
“Our schools and hospitals were run by the church as a charitable concern since the foundation of the state as we did not have sufficient resources or a developed economy to fund them at the time. ”
This is a common myth. The Catholic church controlled our education system before the foundation of the state and back into the early 19th century; from when the state education system was founded. It wasn’t a charitable act in a time of need, that’s just a myth invented after the fact.
The original education system was meant to be multidenominational, but the churches fought against it.
https://martindale.cc.lehigh.edu/sites/martindale.cc.lehigh.edu/files/Carone.pdf
Anthony, cool it, that’s way over the top.
Ugly Truth, you are an idiot.
We are afterall supposed to be a Republic, why on earth should any state funding go to an organisation that doesn’t treat all citizens equally
Because all your secrets are recorded from your confessions of course and that is serious political capital !
The Catholic church makes $70 billion in profit (after salaries etc) every year. They don’t need any state funding.
They also have one of the biggest art collections and the most valuable property portfolio in the world. I think they can manage without my hard earned.
Didn’t they declare bankruptcy in Boston?
Hmmmm …
As we’ve seen from the likes of Ivan Yates, the O’Donnells etc only the rich can afford bankruptcy!
They’re not just providing a service out of the goodness of their hearts. They’re actively promoting an agenda. They should rightly lose funding. People have to pay taxes. And by giving them to Accord they are essentially forced to fund the church. If the Catholic Church were running it free of any “ethos” or agenda I’d have no issues funding whatsoever.
That said, why does the government keep doing things to shoot themselves in the foot by allowing this to come to light now, of all times? Or by delaying the Children and Family Relationships Bill to the point that it’s not even in effect yet. Or by removing the surrogacy provisions of said bill leaving the question ripe for the taking by the No side.
Does Accord counsel child victims of clerical child sexual abuse by Catholic priests and the traumatic consequences in accordance with Catholic ethos?
Do you engage in pro bono work ?
Will the tax payer have to foot the bill for the recently agreed proposal by Catholic Bishops to provide counselling for children of priests? Bishop Dermot Martin stated that the Church does not know how many priests have children in Ireland. This figure could run into millions!
Will the tax payer also have to pay maintenance to the children’s mothers? Where will it end?
So much for the position of mothers and fathers. As usual, the Catholic Church’s line is: do as I say, not as I do! I wonder what Jesus thinks of all this upset for the young children involved?
George Hogan, The taxpayer funds hundreds of thousands of children as it is. Would you seriously suggest that some children should be cherished less than others simply because their fathers are priests?
Those priests are campaigning for children of same sex couples to be cherished less than others.
@James
Are you seriously saying that the Church doesn’t have the money to pay? If the Church declares itself bankrupt, I’ll happily pay as I consider all children to be equal: otherwise, the Church should pay!
Boom!
Daisy, refresh my biology please, how can same-sex couples have children?
George, if you start down the road of ability to pay, you’ll end up removing child support from a substantial number of children whether their fathers are priests or not. Good luck with that!
So if a hetero couple adopts a baby they are not parents?
Adoptive parents, yes. What’s your point exactly? Did I miss something?
That’s how Same sex couples can have Children.
Even if the referendum passes I don’t think any gay couples would be going to the Catholic Church for counselling. So not our problem or fault your funding got cut. Ask Iona for some they have loads of money.
Shouldn’t be receiving funding anyway!!!
Provides a valuable service.
Valuable service my arse. Priests advising people who have often lived together for years how to prepare for marriage is nonsense. Often it’s a pre-requisite for a church wedding where the pre-existing conjugal and habitual arrangements are conveniently ignored.
They’re a joke and the dogs in the street know it and have known it for years. They serve two masters and their agenda prevents them from being impartial.
Pre marriage courses….. what a load of bull sh
Hear, hear!
We completed an Accord pre-marital course a few months back and found it to be really valuable. Lots of common sense strategies around conflict, expectations etc. €200 well spent!
We need a secular state. A yes vote will be a big step in that direction.
Two facts:
1) The Catholic Church in Ireland receives State funding to provide marriage counselling
2) The Catholic Church covered up the rape of Irish children by its clergy
3 they are one of the richest organisations in the world and they refuse to cough up…
Our parish gave over 120,000 to the Catholic Church last year – my contribution was meagre !
how many parishes in Ireland ?
It’s late, but Accord also receive funds from the department of education to deliver courses as part of the mandatory RSE curriculum. NB: this is relationships and sexual education; the first item on their agenda is : relationships and spirituality. How we allow an obviously biased Catholic marriage counselling group to deliver unbiased sex education is beyond me? I could not find out how much the school is charged for this “service”.
As it is supposed to be a factual and scientific analysis of RSE, I will let you know how I get on in the information evening to my question of if they will be discussing the technical details of gay and lesbian sex during this course.
I think it’s great that our taxes go to the people who raped countless generations of children while owing the State an absolute fortune while at the same time having constitutional protection on their property …
Gael Force shall be putting this special protection to referendum of the people within 6 weeks of being to govern Ireland after the election !
being elected ….
Bernardo’s also lost some of its funding and they’re campaigning for a Yes vote. It’s got nothing to do with the referendum
You and your common sense have no place here!
Begone!!
Considering the history of Attorney Generals in this place I wouldn’t give e a fig to Fergus Finlay ….
”Tusla claims that the cut in funding is nothing to do with the referendum”
Yeah, right…..
The tax payer cannot be forced into paying for all the Catholic Church wants. Clerical child sexual abuse has already cost the State millions and millions of euro! The tax payer now has to pay for counselling the children of priests in Ireland and even Bishop Martin concedes we do not know how many priests have children in Ireland. Fair is fair, Catholics need to pay a little more for the problems within their church. It shouldn’t fall on the average person to pay.
Zoe, other charities had their funding cut too. Charities who are active in the Marriage Equality Debate and charities who aren’t.
Paranoid nonsense from the no side loons!
Yup Zoe, in the same way they say Barnardos’ funding hasn’t been cut as a result of the referendum either.
Accord provides counselling to women and to couples if the woman agrees to it. At least that’s my experience of it. They have a Catholic ethos but do not question you on your religion. They do not counsel children as that is specialised. It is not priests who do the counselling, it is counsellor’s who have completed an appropriate course. The ones I know of operate in private or may have additional employment. Some may well be mediators. The centres are often provided by the local parish and almost certainly are funded by catholics. They would be entitled to apply for funding as they provide a charitable service(it was in the past) and people are asked to pay what they can which used to be €50(someone said this is now €70) I would think that most people would struggle to pay full fees for counselling and probably drop it before they have resolved their issues. They do provide a valuable service and shouldn’t be dismissed lightly, as outcomes have direct impact on children. I sometimes think we forget that the children are the future and the less baggage they have the happier they, and their children will be.
How would it council a couple considering a divorce I wonder .
It’s a prerequisite to getting married in a Catholic church. I know people who paid €250 for this crapology and did have a member of clergy talk rubbish to them. “Utter waste of time” was their comment, but had to be done. Nice little cash spinner. Of course the money is only resting in the Churches account.
I dont think it’s because of the referendum because Barnardos is getting cut too according to Fergus Finlay its boss. Look Accord is still getting €1.6 million. If the Church is so committed to marriage as it tells us let it fork up some cash and also to the Magdalene women. After all the taxpayer is paying the salaries of the school teachers.
It’s Catholic Marriage Preparation that’s affected NOT Marriage Counselling!
So let’s see if I have this right. A State still on a shaky economic footing is supposed to fund a wing of one of the wealthiest organisations on the planet, an organisation make makes no tax contribution to that state. Moreover, tax payers of other religions, tax payers of no religion, are funding the machinations of just one religion?
Chris the same organisation that bailed out the government for the last 80 years by running institutions that the state should have ran
The state had to pay out €1.4 Billion in compensation over those rapists. They should not be funded with public money.
They hardly did it off their own backs did they.They ran alot of those operations at a profit for themselves.Remember the laundrys for example ? Nice little earner selling kids despite being paid huge sums by the state.
Howzatme, do you seriously think teachers who are also in religious orders don’t get paid a hefty salary by the Dept of Ed? The orders got a stipend for each child incarcerated under their “care”. Rather than educate these poor kids, they were used as slave labour, making rosary beads to be sold to good catholics and farmed out to work for other good catholics (ask Breda O’Brien. Her dad used boys from Artane.).
The catholic church has tax free status so it should be able to make up the shortfall… probably by increasing the prices Accord charges for compulsory pre-marriage courses.
Niall 80 years of costs far exceed that figure
John the costs of running these institutions was zero then ???
Daisy I think you need to look at your maths
Btw I was never made to make beads were you
Journal.
Are you going to let this comment stand? Blatant unsubstantiated accusations. I’m getting in touch with Breda O’Brien to make her aware.
He used boys from Artane?
You got to be very careful Daisy and withdraw that remark or you might find a court order to reveal your identity and find yourself in a court room.
You going to let this stand journal?
Or are you going to be dragged into it too?
Do you know something other than that stated Tom or just displaying blind faith to the IONA charity group?
Niall they were all rapists are you intelligent
So do you stand behind that accusation also George? Forgive me for challenging unsubstantiated accusations. A pseudo name on an anonomous forum makes damning accusations against a named individual and doesn’t back up the accusation. Is it unreasonable to ask for evidence?
Love, Equality and all that nice stuff the Yes side advocate.
My question to you, Tom, was why do you dispute the allegation? Do you know something other than that stated. I have never had any dealings with the RCC, except I believe some of my taxes subvent their activities.
I didn’t say I dispute or don’t dispute anything. All I’m saying if somebody makes an accusation then back it up.
Is that so unreasonable?
Careful George, looks like Tom is looking to sue someone today. It could be you!
If you have evidence they were all rapists then I suggest you do the dutiful thing and bring your evidence to the authorities.
“MS O’Brien shared with us her childhood memories of Artane boys who worked on her father’s farm. It was a touching moment. You glimpsed a family bond which was strong and enduring, close enough for that little girl to ask her daddy if the rumours about Artane were true. He explained that he had also been punished at school.”
‘Like most No voters,when presented with the facts,Tom disappeared into thin air’
The same cut as Barnardoes and the Church still gets to play the victim card.
Watch this video to see how marriage has changed in the 19th century. We have redefined it lots of times. http://youtu.be/VsgC9ojd0yI
Yes to civil unions, NO to the same sex marriage. As an atheist and naturalist we have the natural order of reproduction it has to be protectected.
So if the referendum is passed heterosexual people will suddenly stop reproducing? Pffft.
What a silly reply Mrs Jordan, how did you come up with that??????
I think it’s more that homosexuals will start to outsource reproduction breaking biological links
No Kelly if Equal rights is afforded to same sex couples then everyone will be forced to marry someone of their own gender. And once you do it you can go to any house in the country and take whatever children you want. It bothers me that Irish people actually believe that. Bible belt Americans yes but educated people.
Marriage guidance counseling and long term benefit of children do not go hand in hand. We HAD to do this course (cost more that €70 too) and it brought nothing in this regard…
Vote no,protect the children and send a vote of no confidence in endas government and it will force a GE,guaranteed.
@mdmark33, no it won’t, all the main parties support the referendum and voting against equal rights for your fellow citizens because you dislike the government is selfish as well as pointless.
Why do you keep posting the same comment on many different threads? Repeating the same thing over and over isn’t going to sway anyone.
Do you think that voting no will prevent gay people from raising children? That already happens and will happen whether the referendum passes or not.
That’s just silly. Trying to latch on to anti-government sentiment in such a transparent manner. Considering the opposition parties all support marriage equality. It’s clearly silly. And the whole “protect the children” malarky is pure homophobia.
It’s not about equal rights Miss Davis, as nobody has the ‘right’ to get married. We all have to apply to the sate and the church for the ‘FREEDOM’ to get married. Big difference. Rights tend to be transcendental and protected by law such as the right to life and the right to an education etc.
Added to which, I would have thought that support from this government for any cause would be the kiss of death for that cause.
James, that’s a transparently bogus attempt at framing. Straight couples explicitly have the _right_ to marry under article 12 of the European convention on human rights, in the Irish constitution and in the Universal Declaration on Human Rights. They all frame it as a right. You are trying to make a distinction where none exists.
Some of them even explicitly describe it as a right.
ECHR text:
“Men and women of marriageable age have the right to marry and
to found a family, according to the national laws governing the exercise of this right.”
UDHR text:
“They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.”
It is exactly that, people have a right to marry. It’s not merely a law currently granted by those in authority, it’s a right. The freedom to get married is protected by the right to marriage.
Cathal, that’s all fine and good, but if I get married, I no longer have the ‘right’ to get married, whereas, before I got married I had the ‘freedom’ to get married.Are ya with me?
Rights are transcendental,so, for example, the right to life is a genuine right in the truest sense of the word. By that I mean that it is not and can never be conditional. The ‘freedom’ to get married is conditional and as long as I meet those conditions, I can get married. So can you and anyone else for that matter. Do you follow? The problem here is that ‘right’ is being used interchangeably with ‘freedom’ and that is a deliberate attempt by the yes campaign to muddy the waters. As it were.
Here a more accurate account of the same story
http://www.catholicbishops.ie/2015/05/12/statement-by-bishop-nulty-on-the-decision-by-tusla-to-withdraw-funding-for-accords-marriage-preparation-courses/
Jane , as good a checkmate as I’ve ever seen played.
Well done
Vote No.
Sorry Jane but I saw the words ‘Catholic Bishop’ in that link and therefore won’t click it. Hope I didn’t miss anything insightful.
I clicked Martin. It’s not about Child sexual abuse in the Catholic Church for once!
The letter regarding the funding was dated May 7th and specifically refers to Marriage counselling. Not as you have reported above.
Proper order withdrawing funding from bigots. Anyone who votes to deny the basic human rights of same sex couples should be ashamed of themselves.
Tom
The amount of bigots and lefties on this site is unreal pot kettle black etc…,
Tom
Anyone that would purposely deny a mother or father to a child should be ashamed of themselves.
Vote NO.
You have been told countless times this referendum will have no affect whatsoever on children and their rights. Are you really that thick you can’t understand it?
I like to think dogs have a bit more cop on that you lot.
Yeah, because men marrying each other and buying babies is so sensible. …
Why is the government funding ANY religious groups? And if they receive government funding do they not have to treat everyone equally? Do they council gay couples? If not, since they are getting money from ALL taxpayers, not just Catholic ones, is that not also discrimination? What if they said they would only council white couples? OR couples from Dublin? How would that be any different? If your organisation gets money from ALL citizens, it should have to serve ALL citizens, not just the ones it chooses.
@Sternn. Local charities get money from governments and they deal only with people in that area. So yes, the government does give money to charities that provide help only to people in Cork or Dublin or Galway. It also gives money to charities that provide help only to specific groups – immigrants/travellers and there are possibly even LGBT charities that provide services only to LGBT people who get money from the government. Therefore, by your logic, an LGBT organisation that gets state funding should provide services to non-LGBT. Charities by their nature are often local and support specific socio-demographic groups
I don’t think the state should provide funding in anyway to catholic agencies or any religious organisation for that matter. Looking forward to the day the church is stripped if it’s role in education also.
Hang on a sec,I had to do one of these “courses” a couple of years ago (conducted by two women) and I recall it wasn’t cheap,and now I find out these part-time chancers are also getting tax payers money!
You didn’t have to.
You decided to do it.
It’s not compulsory.
It is true I only “had” to as we wanted to use a church. Sorry for the imprecision in my comment. But it doesn’t change the fact that this tax payer subsidy to the church exists and now even more people know about it. Maybe making these payments public through a political campaign is probably not the wisest thing the church has done recently…………
The problem is time and time again we see lots of church bashing yet so many still want a church wedding and a church funeral. I think we got to be very careful what we wish for.
It seems so many want to see the church out of existence.
As a matter of interest how much did you pay for your course? I bet it wasn’t that expensive actually. Churches get bills too.
As for having to do the course.
Again you only had to because you wanted a church wedding. That seems reasonable. If I join a golf club I must dress a certain way.
To repeat myself; yes it was my choice to use a church and I paid for the course and the church and sacristan etc.
Your comparison to golf clubs (courses also) is interesting, should the also receive tax payers funds, as a subsidy,annually?
While I see the benefit of the service everything is being cut to the bone on the public purse so saying this is targeting one group is not true.
Catholics are tax payers too
And what? Therefore we should fund your religion? No.
I’m an atheist, does that mean atheist organisations should get money to promote atheism? No, clearly not. The state has the ability to collect taxes to provide services etc for everyone. If money is being used to fund privileges for one religion, it should be cut.
Everyone in the republic is putting money into a kitty for use for the public good; it should be used to fund services that everyone can avail of, not just those with particular beliefs.
If you want your religious organisation to have funds, you can pay out of their own pocket, just as every other group does. Pay a tithe to the church if you wish.
Who runs Ireland? The people or the Church? Religion should be a private matter.
Dublin footballer Ger Brennan is voting No and has made a very good reasoned explanation. I salute him for his brave move and hope he isn’t subjected to the usual abuse from many on the Yes side.
For those who shout loudest about acceptance and tolerance it’s worth a look at the abusive comments here especially towards the Catholic Church.
Sure some did wrong but so many priests and nuns do so much to help our community.
Please drop the hatred.
You will only contaminate yourself.
Yeah, wonder who wrote that “very good reasoned” (and nonsense) explanation for him.
As far as I know, Accord do a great job regardless of people’s religion or ability to pay. this shortfall will have a huge impact on their ability to carry out counselling and will leave many people without options. Maybe TUSLA are diverting the money to another not for profit organisation that do similar work – but there is no indication of that. The timing though could not have been worse as it will play directly into the hands of the No campaign.
They will be grand.don’t worry their God guy will supply
Gimme a break the church is minted
With the shortage of funding for really important things I don’t think anyone can disagree with using what we have to the best possible effect. To be honest I would have been more impressed had the Catholic Church, lamenting the loss of funding, acknowledged the financial constraints the country is in and announced that they would in future take the full costs associated with this service!! Personally I don’t see the benefit of this particular service and I don’t think it’s fit for purpose so, in my mind, any money spent on this is a waste!
Fair play to couples who take it upon themselves to attend counselling.
It would be very easy to walk away.
These people deserve a little help to keep their families together.
If you want funding for religious counselling then it should be coming from that religious organisation.
Do you also want the church to prevent those who are not practicing their religion from getting married in a church? How many never darken the door of a church but expect it to be there for their weddings and funerals?
Well tom I imagine both services are valuable sources of funding for their organisation. If they were to choose to only perform services for devout followers then the catholic church would dwindle at a faster rate and hopefully cease to blight our society entirely. Their call whether or not they want the money.
You imagine wrongly.
The church make absolutely NO charge in holding a wedding OR a funeral.
There is also NO collection made.
The church rely purely on a donation that may be made to cover costs such as heating etc.
When you turn up to the church on your wedding day, a church you may not have been in for 10 years if will be ready, heated, cleaned and decorated with flowers provided by volunteers who seek no payment.
My Cousin married in a Church last year. Cost was 400 for the Church 200 for the priest and 50 per alter boy/girl. Donation my ar$e
Ah , Catholic Marriage Guidance Counselling. I was forced to go on a course before getting married by my local priest(if I wanted to get married in a church). Hyacinth Bucket was giving the course(or at least, her double) and the “gems” she told me included that the increase in infertility in Ireland is due to the increased levels of the contraceptive pill drugs in our water which is caused by so many women being on the pill. She also told me that if I have any worries over the years, I should not tell them to my husband, as he has enough to be dealing with in being the “man of the house” and the “breadwinner”- I work too, but even if I didn’t!! Overall, a well worth while course which has taught me lots of useful life skills(or three hours of my life that I will never get back)
Next headline “SVP cuts christian aid to atheists in retaliation .”
Accord losing funding?
Simple solution: force the Catholic Church to no longer make it mandatory to do the counseling before they grant you permission to marry in the church.
The numbers taking the course will then go down by about 75%.
Problem sorted.
If people decide they want to show true commitment to their partner by getting married and they want to do it in the church for the social and community occasion that this represents, more power to them. But they don’t need priests or their agents lecturing them on Catholicism and Catholic
marriage.
I got married in a Church last month. Well it used to be a church but it was bought and made a lot more useful. It’s an Art Centre now. They even still have a stained glass window with Constanti… I mean Jesus on it. They asked if I wanted it covered up. I said it might as well be Mickey Mouse to me. Also the ceremony was 35 mins and all of it was about me and my wife. As opposed to a Catholic wedding where 8 minutes is about you and the rest about the catholic god.
Firstly, how is a Catholic-centric marriage counselling service a charity?? And why are religions in general exempt from taxes? Particularly when the reduction in money they were sponging off the taxpayers is being moved to child abuse support instead…. I’d have thought that would be a cause close to the heart of the church considering the huge damage they did in this and other countries with this particular form of abuse.
Why do Protestants, Jews , Muslims etc have to fund a Catholic agency through taxation?
They knew this was coming as far back as January. Its just more politically expedient to complain about it now. There have been cuts to numerous charities of varying political views that have recieved no attention in the media.
Vengence will be mine sayeth the lord…….a more vengenful spiteful god one could not get than Edna and his stooge O’Reilly…..still I guess the lgbt marriage guidance agency will have funding available.
Gene Pitney had a song about it and it was called ’24 Hours from Tulsa’……..or should that be ‘Tusla’????????
Catholics voting yes to this amendment, is the equivalent of Turkey’s voting for Christmas.
Paddy Scully you are probably correct but I don’t think there are many of that type of Catholic left! Well, at least I hope there isn’t because otherwise the referendum will never be carried! I would hope that anyone voting No would have based that decision on something more solid than the happen chance of being born into a particular religious sect!!
@ Anthony Kelly
I can agree with some of what you said Anthony.
I assure you the group leading the NO campaign are a very mixed bag when it comes to faith, and includes several agnostics.
It is true my faith and reason are aligned on this issue. There have been times in my personal life when that was not true, but with the experience of life, I’m finding a much better correlation between faith and reason. I am personally happy that my view is well informed, and smiled this morning when the taoiseach informed me that the NO campaigners are ‘confused’. It’s a good job he is trusthworthy, well grounded, and privy to human knowledge that has evaded me.
They can start getting handouts when they start paying tax.
Ah sure what do they need the funding for anyways? According to them all heterosexual marriages are perfect and always provide perfect loving homes.
Having been unlucky enough to go to one of these courses last year because our priest wouldn’t marry us otherwise, I can tell you I am delighted funding was cut. Never has my time been so throughly wasted.
I ended up on a two day weekend course. The Friday evening was spend listening to some country bumpkin tell us how he thought donkeys lived for ever but later found out his family kept replacing it(riveting and important stuff I know) then a priest who took an hour to get through 10 minutes of material because “I got trained in this 39 years ago and this is the first time i delivered it” this was basically the your all sinners if you live together or have children before marriage which is their belief but they managed to alienate just about everyone in the room, welcome to modern society. The Saturday was spent doing what amounted to Ice Breakers that you would see on a business training day, led by a couple who were about as nosey as could be and all was of very little relevance to being a married couple.
I was also given a price from the outset with no option to “pay what I can” the only reason I married in a church was for my parents and their beliefs not my own. I highly recommend finding a more modern priest who will accept one of the online marriage courses, they’re cheaper less time consuming and no less relevant than an accord course, which was basically a scam to make more money.
And the nuns refused to pay any compensation to the women they kept as slaves in the magdelen laundries
No religious groups should get state funding for anything, seperate state and church
What an insult by Enda Kenny who claims to be a Catholic but not a Catholic Taoiseach !
Vote no to lowering the age to become president to 21, children have a right to an old president
Eh I drive past accord in Lucan everyday, 3 white 141 Hyundai ix35s, identical ones sitting outside regularly and it’s not people doing the course. That stupid marriage course it’s a waste of time and clearly the money is wasted.
Would it be fair to say that most here believe themselves to be progressive, intelligent people? Comfortable in their own opinions? Believe that we should all be treated equally? Hands up all those people who didn’t go to a catholic school. For all the “indoctrination” and “disgrace” of having religion taught in schools, we didn’t half turn out ok did we? And religion was taken more seriously when we were all in school and yet we are not brainwashed bible quoting zombies. Always amazes me how people jump to imply our children will somehow succumb where we escaped.
I went to a mixed and multi denominational school, so from the age of four grew up with catholics, Hindus, Muslims and dare I say it even some protestants. Religion was only in the communion and confirmation years and thankfully gone after it. That school thought me tolerance for other people’s cultures from an early age which thought me to howth be tolerant of other people’s beliefs. Accord isn’t even tolerant of a modern society.
My wife is a teacher in a Catholic school and she currently has to teach religion as much as maths and English, unless a big religion factory opens in the next 10 years, those children’s lives are being utterly wasted, RE should be replaced by PE
have your say