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Updated at 10.30am
GARDAÍ INVESTIGATING THE murder of father-of-three Noel Duggan in Co Meath last month are still questioning a man arrested yesterday afternoon.
It’s understood detectives are questioning him in relation to vehicles used in the attack.
Duggan was a close friend of Gerry ‘The Monk’ Hutch, and was known as Mr Kingsize during his cigarette smuggling days.
He was shot five times with a handgun as he sat in his car after pulling into the driveway in front of his home in the Old Mill housing estate in Ratoath on 23 March this year.
Gardaí investigating the murder of Duggan arrested a man yesterday afternoon.
The man, in his 40s, was arrested at approximately 2.30pm and is currently detained under Section 30 Offences Against the State Act, 1939 at Ashbourne Garda Station.
First posted yesterday evening.
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I love the way Leo Varadkar and now Joan are looking for plaudits with their oh-so-enlightened stance on this issue while being part of a government that clearly has no intention of giving us a referendum on this any time soon. You can’t have your cake and eat it
There must be an election coming up , pretend to care
I can certainly appreciate the controversial issue in relation to the eighth amendment, if Joan Burton is to abort anything, it’s this sham of a government, and let the people have their say, instead of using this issue to try and increase their popularity, what popularity you might ask, well this is where the delusional factor kick’s in.
Populist crap on a complex issue, without even trying to address the real issues involved.
Rubbish
Plaudits? What plaudits are there to be gained in Ireland for challenging this country’s restrictive treatment of women? NONE. Instead, a party risks incurring the wrath of anti-abortion campaigners and losing votes from those on the right of the political divide. These votes even matter to so-called ‘left wing’ parties as we have PR so somebody can transfer their vote from say Fianna Fáil to Sinn Féin. So that’s why Sinn Féin aren’t saying anything on this issue. Because they’re cowards and they don’t want to scare away votes. Saying you’re in favour of abortion in Ireland is NOT a a sound election strategy.
neither does the labour party you lead
Considering her party voted against a bill to repeal the 8th only a couple of days ago I have to say she’s at best very disingenuous
Watch their hands get calouuses from all the wringing
Ahh iPhone Joan displaying her skills as a Fakeolitician.
Correct Stephen in simple english, they are liars
What about a referendum on abortion and euthanasia at the same time. This would suit me. We could kill off the unwanted and those that struggle to live. We need to move on from this issue and address both.
I never again want to watch a dying person linger, its awful. They should have a choice. Women violated and health at risk should have a choice.
Should the baby not also have a choice?
Then do something about it Joan.
The 8 th should stay … It is there to protect the unborn and any dilution will only open the floodgates
And what about the women carrying those babies Linda?
I’d love to see the 8th repealed, but not until there is alternative legislation that meets a middle ground. We can’t appease the extremists on either side
Joan Burton doesn’t serve anybody well except herself.
But in contrast it protects the lives of a lot of innocent babies as a positive
Is that the 8th Century you’re on about?
No Johnny, it doesn’t. It doesn’t affect the number of abortions at all. They just go to the UK instead, or take abortion pills without medical supervision, or resort to knitting needles. The 8th kills women, it doesn’t “save babies”.
Jiminy, I actually agreed with you there until you started going on about extremists. No-one wants the extremes of abortion legislation such as exists in China under the one-child policy, where women pregnant with a second child receive enforced abortions. We just want every woman to have a choice. That’s the definition of middle ground.
The 8th amendment is a disgrace. It protects unborn babies only. It does not in any instance protect unconceived babies (and we know how important they are; they get conceived and develop into unborn babies and then preborn children) or women. Repeal it. I will be one of those voting yes to its removal. Women will be able to take proper care of themselves and unconceived babies then whereas both are utterly ignored now by everyone, incluidng middle ground – those who think that it is alright to sacrifice women in some instances and not others
What can she do? They’re the minority party in government with FG who are anti-abortion. FG will never agree to a referendum on the issue. It’s a miracle Labour actually got FG to legislate for the X Case in the first place.
She could threaten to pull out of government. This is a serious issue that involves women’s lives. I’d put it above the water charges, usc and property tax in terms of importantness.
Taxpayer funded abortion on demand is most definitely extreme, and it has nothing to do with women’s health. The effing privilege with people in this country is sickening
I’d put it above water charges and property tax too but there’s no way they would pull out of government over this as:
(1) It wasn’t in the programme of government which they signed with FG – only legislating for the X-Case was.
(2) Unfortunately, if there was an election do you think it would actually be about women’s rights? I would love it if was but you know rightly that it won’t. Instead it would be about the economy, water charges, and property taxes.
(3) After such an election, there’s no way Labour would be anywhere near power. Instead we’d probably have a government made out of 2 of the following 3 parties: FG, FF, and SF. None of these are in favour of repealing the 8th Amendment.
(4) So Labour would be out of government and women’s rights would once again be kicked to the curb. The best they can do now is use their position of power to keep the subject in the headlines. This soft power is something that people tend to overlook a lot but it is incredibly important and try as it can really help to shape the debate.
Hear, hear Paul!
The ‘babies’ aren’t innocent johnny boy,until they get baptised they’re sinners
@ jonny boy, The 8th has nothing to do with babies. It only mentions the unborn. Babies, being already born fall outside its scope
“The effing privilege with people in this country is sickening”
So an abortion is a privilege? talk about deluded!
i don’t know anyone who wants abortion on demand…..
Well you do now, Jean. I want free, safe, legal abortion up to 16 weeks, and for it to be available in the case of FFA or maternal health issues on doctor’s recommendations thereafter.
What is wrong with the world, a baby in the belly is still a baby. Ffs
You think that bad look at article 40 and 41 that states since 1932 you have to married in a church to claim widow tax relief credit. If you not married you don’t get this tax relief if you have children.
Labour don’t serve the country well.
Liars greed and self interest is all their after.
The women caring those babies have voices to stick up for themselves and all manner of pro aborts to exploit them for their agenda of legalizing abortion. The babies are voiceless, and the 8th gives them a voice.
So I have answered your question. What about the babies Dublinguy2013.
With all due respect Jane, you are wrong regarding the 8th amendment not saving babies. The IFPA admitted during the week that 5 babies were saved during the year as a result of the 8th amendment!
5! Good grief Maria, have you any comparable stats for how many women’s lives were ruined by being forced to give birth when they didn’t want to; how many grieving couples had to travel to the UK to terminate pregnancies with FFA; how many struggling women had to put themselves in penury to find the money to travel; how many women suffered serious ailments or even died through being denied an abortion; etc, etc, etc.
You tell me that because of the 8th amendment, 5 women who otherwise, I assume, would have travelled for an abortion had that road made so difficult for them that they changed their minds, or were simply unable to do so. You cite that as a victory? I see it as an abomination.
No Jane, that is your job! I for my part am glad to see that 5 babies are living here amongst us because of the 8th amendment.
I really would like to know why you hate those five innocent children so much that you consider them an abomination? Why what did they do do you.?
What I do know however Calling children an abomination says more about you than about those children.
Maria, you are doing yourself a grave disservice; I’m pretty sure your reading comprehension is better than that. Try reading it again.
No it is you who are doing yourself a disservice by calling innocent children “an abomination”. But then again Jane, you were also one of those furious that the little boy at the center of the Y case survived.
But I ask you again why the hatred towards these children that you wish their mothers had aborted them?
Well Maria, if that’s how you interpret what I said then there’s no point in me saying anything else because you’ll only twist that too.
Jane that is precisely what you are saying, and to not realize that shows an in incredibly disjointed reasoning. So let me put it to you like this:
These babies are the exact same human individuals they were when they were in the mothers wombs, they did not morph into something else at their birth.
Abortion would have resulted in the deaths of these very same babies, who would not have been with us had their mothers had an abortion..
Therefore lack of access to abortion saved theses babies lives. This is a good thing, You think it is an abomination.
The 8th amendment was instrumental in restricting access to abortion, therefore it saved these babies lives.
Oh good grief Maria, I’ll try one more time. Read carefully, ok?
The five babies that were born (if they exist) because this country failed their mothers are not abominations.
The ACT that failed their mothers IS an abomination.
Once again I ask you, how many women had to travel to end a pregnancy with FFA, or for all the other reasons I listed above? How many women suffered psychologically, emotionally and physically from the lack of access to abortion? How many wound up with serious medical conditions from lack of access to abortion? How many women died?
Now comes the Maths, because
5 on one side of the equation does not equal the thousands on the other side. THAT’S your abomination.
Good grief Jane. You cannot claim that 5 babies living are not an abomination and yet proclaim that the fact that their mothers were denied the opportunity to kill them is. Either they have a right to be here. (which the 8th amendment ensured), or you believe that their mothers should have had the choice to kill them (which the absence of the 8th amendment would have allowed) Which is it?
As for you questions, you tell me, that is your job. You are the pro abort, you are the one who wants to justify legal abortion.
However at a guess as how many suffered etc or died I’d say,NONE As has been been repeated ad nauseum abortion is not a treatment for any medical condition, nor is it necessary to save a mothers life (dublin declaration 2012) On the other hand I can tell you that 375 women have died as a result of ‘safe legal abortion” in the US since Roe V Wade. These aren’t numbers jane, they are women with names ,addreses. See the “blackmun wall”. And if the US is too far removed for you remember this: An woman who travelled from Ireland bled to death following a “safe legal abortion” in England last year.
Do you know, Maria, I always try to see the best in people wherever possible. I genuinely try not to judge people until I I’ve had several dealings with them and have a good idea of the sort of person they are.
I’ve made up my mind about you now. You will twist words and accuse at every opportunity. You even call me a “pro-abort”. I’m done, go get your jollies somewhere else.
I have not twisted your words. I have exposed your disjointed reasoning and challenged logic. And yet you fail to answer any question, including your own.
It’s time to Repeal the 8th Amendment.
Of course they don’t, they serve the church like many of Irish laws. Church and state should always be kept separate. Irish women have depended on England for support for to long. Its time for Ireland to support Irish women.
Well said Ms. Burton, if only you were in a position of power so you could push for a chang………….oh
Ah WereJammin! Good ol’ Sinn Féin supporter that you are! Where do they stand on the issue, please tell me??
Here’s Martin McGuinness saying that Sinn Féin is an anti-abortion party:
http://www.thejournal.ie/sinn-fein-ard-fheis-abortion-868416-Apr2013/
And here’s how all the TDs voted on Clare Daly’s bill to repeal the 8th Amendment. Note that all the SFers voted NO.
http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2014121700075?opendocument
You can be anti abortion but still want the 8th ammendment repealed! I for one dont think my rights as a woman should be superceded by anything or anyone!
But they don’t want the 8th Amendment repealed, Karen. That’s the point.
@ ignoreland : “Where do they stand on the issue, please tell me??”
I can only tell you where I stand, I’m pro choice within reasonable constraints i.e. under 24 weeks, maybe even a little less. I believe SF only advocate abortion in circumstances of rape, incest, or fatal foetal abnormality. I could be wrong
Have you checked their website?
I know exactly where they stand. They’re anti-abortion. So I find it a bit rich for a Sinn Féin supporter to attack Labour for not doing anything about abortion when the party they support is actively against it.
That’s all fair and well saying it, but you need to feckin do something about it Joan! Get on that! It’s barbaric what has happened to all of the women who have fallen victim to the 8th Amendment. Get rid of it. Then I might have some respect for you.
em why are we having this discussion a woman is dead, a family have requested that all life support be withdrawn so they can bury there child with dignity, doctors should immediately withdraw all medical support and if the child/Foetus survives after an emergency section then so be it(that is gods work cause I believe a foetus needs to be 23/24 weeks to survive outside the womb), now that is common sense and we dont have to involve the 8th amendment or prosecute anybody. Medical profession then can say “we done all we could” instead we have this freakish perverse situation where we are keeping a dead woman alive. ONLY in Ireland and a few random places in the world could this happen
The problem is some people don’t have enough common sense to see the irony of the situation.
The litigious culture we live in coupled with imperfections in the law and the extreme lobby groups on both sides mean that doctors are paralised in the practice of medicine.
The Act will need a clause or two added after this case.
That’s why 20 labour TDs voted against its repel and 13 didn’t bother to turn up for the vote.
Its not that they didn’t BOTHER to show up. It’s that they were making a statement by NOT showing up. There’s a difference.
A vote for the motion would have been a more convincing statement. And 20 did vote against the bill.
were they in the Dail bar ?
This is a classic case of Labour saying one thing after they’ve done exactly the opposite in the Dail.
Just yesterday the Labour Party in its entirety, either opposed or abstained from the vote on a motion to repeal the 8th amendment.
We want a referendum, and we want a referendum NOW. Shit or get off the pot, Joan. The time for rhetoric is long past.
And you Joanie also do not serve this country well.
Well put, Mary!
Your government should have done something about it, action is what is needed,not a statement that the whole country know already.
There is so much I want to say about Joan and her election promises. So really don’t want to know or care what she has to say. This is just more sound bites.
Sadly I’d be inclined to agree with you. I can’t believe a word that woman says.
It is sad especially when it is someone who at one time I would have regarded is having some integrity for a politician.
Show some leadership for once,for God’s sake
If Joan & Leo feel that way about the 8th Amendment then why did they vote down Clare Daly’s bill the other night? Again these hypocrites try to run with the hare and chase with the hounds
They are only playing politics.
The eight is flawed because the Politicians in power at the time wanted the wording as it is despite the attorney generals advise to the contrary. It was only the closest wording to what the “pro-life” lobby desired but seen even by them as only at best a compromise.
Yes, because the “pro life” campaigns original wording made no reference to the woman’s right to life whatsoever.
Had the “pro life” campaign got their way, women wouldn’t even get cut open and butchered when an ectopic pregnancy happened. They would simply be left to die.
No shit, Sherlock. Joan, could you briefly outline to me the vigorous campaign conducted by the Labour Party since 1983 to remove this egregious blot on our Constitution? Hello?!? I’ll just wait here then.
I love her use of the term “in their wisdom”. Once again we see a politicians opinion of the people of Ireland.
Total buck-passing exercise, Seamus, you’re right.
Pro-choice people are probably in the majority when it comes to carrying a donor card #aintthatthetruth
Great to see real leadership from the Tanaiste on this issue.
Or just populist crap trap in an issue where she does not express an opinion on the details.
Also it shows the necessity for a division of powers between the executive and the judiciary.
The co situation expresses the will of the people as if the last referendum, only another referendum can change it.
Does she have the balls to ask for one, no of course not, and labour will be irrelevant after the next election, she may not even retain her seat.
You’re being sarcastic, right Ian?
I reckon they are softening us up for an election, no water police beating up citizens, no talk of more taxes, enda giving fireside chats, Joan giving the people wise plaudits, all of this dependent on their reelection of course and if not re-elected then fire and brimstone awaits.
Absolutely they are! Frances Fitzgerald was in Lucan a few weeks back knocking on doors with local councillors !!
I don’t think iPhone Joan serves Ireland well.
In other news, Joan Burton claimed water to be wet and that the earth revolves around the sun.
Church and state always separate ? Why explain? Catholicism has like it or not defined the irish people. Abortion is simply killing and if it against the law to kill a 26 week old born baby then why is it okay to kill a 24 or 22 week old baby
We cannot leave our morality to the latest advances In medical science. Also for you who don’t know what a D and C is YouTube it. It might change or alter your view.
Catholicism doesn’t define Irish people. It only defines people who believe in a fantasies like heaven and hell or bearded men in the sky.
You would think Joan above all people would stand up for the unborn baby.The morning after pill is one thing, killing a healthy unborn child is so wrong.
Yes Patrick. In the same way the Khmer Rouge defines modern Cambodia. Product of the past is one thing, prisoner is quite another.
Right Patrick So if it is not Ok to get rid of a 1 week foetus why is it exactly Ok to get rid of sperm? We should outlaw all private time. Cameras in everyone’s pants to make sure we protect life at its most vulnerable stage.
feel like breaking into ….all together now
DAD:
There are Jews in the world.
There are Buddhists.
There are Hindus and Mormons, and then
There are those that follow Mohammed, but
I’ve never been one of them.
I’m a Roman Catholic,
And have been since before I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics is:
They’ll take you as soon as you’re warm.
You don’t have to be a six-footer.
You don’t have to have a great brain.
You don’t have to have any clothes on. You’re
A Catholic the moment Dad came,
Because
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.
CHILDREN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.
GIRL:
Let the heathen spill theirs
On the dusty ground.
God shall make them pay for
Each sperm that can’t be found.
CHILDREN:
Every sperm is wanted.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.
MUM:
Hindu, Taoist, Mormon,
Spill theirs just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their
Semen with more care.
MEN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
WOMEN:
If a sperm is wasted,…
CHILDREN:
…God get quite irate.
PRIEST:
Every sperm is sacred.
BRIDE and GROOM:
Every sperm is good.
NANNIES:
Every sperm is needed…
CARDINALS:
…In your neighbourhood!
CHILDREN:
Every sperm is useful.
Every sperm is fine.
FUNERAL CORTEGE:
God needs everybody’s.
MOURNER #1:
Mine!
MOURNER #2:
And mine!
CORPSE:
And mine!
NUN:
Let the Pagan spill theirs
O’er mountain, hill, and plain.
HOLY STATUES:
God shall strike them down for
Each sperm that’s spilt in vain.
EVERYONE:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite iraaaaaate!
Sperm is only one part of procreation. What about the ova?
Santy Claus?
We careless women keep losing our ova in menses, James :(
Catholicism has bullied and abused Irish people for the last century. They define nothing but hatred and bigotry.
Hi Jane, I had rather hoped that someone else might have contributed to the discussion.
It’s probably more accurate to say that some practitioners of Catholicism have engaged in bullying and bigotry. It might also be worth mentioning that such behaviour was widely practiced by followers of other religions, both in the Republic of Ireland and in Northern Ireland. In other words, a belief system is incapable of any kind of behaviour, but the affiliates of a belief system can and do engage in all kinds of behaviour.
Well James, if ever the Irish people had a motive for repealing the 8th, it’d be the thought that Jane Travers might shut up on the Journal for once!
Gee, thanks for cleaning that up for us, Onedin.
* clearing, not cleaning :-)
My pleasure.
No more perverse selfish misandrist crap from Jane ever again? or only for a day?
Jim, wanting rights for women is not the same thing as hating men. One day when you grow up you’ll realise that.
Wanting rights for women often comes across as hating men. This doesn’t always happen by accident.
No it doesn’t, only if you choose to see it that way or are afraid of having to share some of your privilege.
I’m looking at it from a man’s point of view, something that you will never be able to do.
Oh James, you’re hysterical! Of course you’re looking at it from a man’s point of view, that’s bloody obvious. It’d be nice if you’d try to look at it from a woman’s point of view, even for a few minutes.
Once agin Jane, I had rather hoped that someone else might contribute to the discussion.
Once again James, this is a public forum and I’ll reply where I like, so tough shit.
Jane, foul language is unbecoming of any civilised person and usually points to a weakness of reasoning and argument. You may have found your true level.
Pots and kettles, James. What does it say about someone who tries to restrict someone else’s freedom of speech? You tried it earlier and I politely laughed it off. To try it again shows that you probably have serious issues with having your opinion challenged, and possibly shows that you have a poor opinion of women.
Well, you’d better get used to it, because as long as you are posting opinions that I disagree with, I’ll be here to reply.
Have a nice day now :)
Are you saying goodbye Jane? Oh good.
*adds “reading comprehension” to James’ list of failings*
You’re back Jane, oh good.
Ok, that made me laugh :)
Best medicine of all Jane. ;)
Well James, I think you’ll find that many men from their men’s point of view see women as equals and don’t feel threatened by women having equality or speaking up about issues of inequality. Thankfully men who fear women being treated as equal human beings are in the minority.
What are you talking about Miss Jordan?
His reading comprehension hasn’t improved
Google a D&C…
Are you aware of what the purpose of this procedure is?
It is done for safety reasons. To prevent toxic shock.
The majority of miscarriages / abortions complete naturally, but occasionally they don’t. If they don’t anything that is left inside the womb could pose a risk to the woman and so a D&C must be performed, they do it in maternity hospitals here – I know of several women who have had them after a miscarriage.
Yes, it can be gruesome, because the fact that the miscarriage was “incomplete” is just as gross as it sounds.
I really fail to see what relevance it has to a debate about abortion though..
James Onedin, I think I commented in plain English, not really that difficult to understand. Also if you’re going to address me then use my correct name don’t shorten it to suit yourself please and since you don’t know if I’m married or not or what title I use then I suggest using ‘Ms’ or no title.
Jane
It might be better if you were motivated by Human rights rather than some humans rights over others
Jim..
You wish to elevate a foetus to a position of primacy – granting it rights over and above that which any other human enjoys (the right to use another person’s body without their consent) and then you state that Jane is pro some humans rights but not others?
Are you aware of your own human rights issue there?
Correct, you THINK you commented in plain English.
I hate being stalked.
Ah. I don’t know why I didn’t see this sooner; this is an ego trip for James. The more outlandish tripe he comes out with, the more attention he gets from women – even if it’s negative.
Ego trip Jane? I’m just bored is all!
But I’m glad you took the time to comment!
Nick read your country’s history . Or your comments are cheap childish and show you have nothing to say.
Idiot ! Sperm is no more morally superior than my snot. Nor are eggs from menstruation so we use a towel.
Now put these two together and bang ! Life is concieved. That life has a right to life. I don’t even know why I would waste time replying to your idiot camera comment. Go and have a lie down.
Well done James by god I think he’s got it.
Aaaaaarrrrrrrgģgghhhhhh
Shanti
Humanity’s survival requires us to be prolife.
All “rights” are subservient to that greater cause, the greater good of Humanity, but always with regard to the principal that an evil act should not be done in order to achieve a good.
Our innate personal selfishness is a survival instinct, as is a sense of outrage, but if these attributes become dominant in our thinking they work against us.
Oh dear, Patrick. Y’see, there’s this thing called “satire”; it’s often used in political situations to lampoon the other side of the argument. Think of Jonathan Swift suggesting that the famine-stricken Irish should eat their babies in A Modest Proposal and you’d be on the right track.
The fact that you would fly off the handle at Marie like that, using some pretty unpleasant language, shows me that you are incapable of stepping back and looking at this issue rationally.
Well said Jim.
Patrick.. Fancy addressing your misleading vividness fallacy there?
Why was it you felt you had to bring up a vital and necessary post miscarriage procedure? Were you trying to manipulate agreement by appealing to people’s emotions?
Surely not.. The anti choice side are always so honest and forthright about these things..
And yes Jim. The instinct for survival is indeed a strong one.. It’s the reason you can’t simply suffocate yourself by holding your breath, and why suicide is not actually as easy as people seem to think it is.
So.. I don’t suppose that you are able to comprehend the fact that pregnancy is not a positive thing for every woman. If she has prior existing health conditions she can almost be guaranteed that the pregnancy will make them worse (oestrogen :(). She also runs the risk of a whole host of other problems – in the interests of her own self preservation she might decide that the pregnancy is not a viable life choice.. And then complete strangers who know nothing of her situation will pass their judgement like the absolute asshats they are.
Sadly – in cases of real desperation, some women are literally willing to end their own lives to end the pregnancy (this happens frequently where abortion access is restricted). But you don’t care about that do you? So long as you maintain this illusion you’re protecting the foetus and giving it it’s rights.. Do you not realise how arrogant it is to grant a right that not even nature (or your “god”) supplies?
In a case where a woman has previous health concerns, would her doctor not advise against getting pregnant?
Actually, only sometimes. My experience of consultants in this country is that they are eager for women to have babies. In fact – they are reluctant to perform hysterectomy or sterilization on younger women – even if pregnancy poses health risks for them.
But even though these women will use contraception very carefully, no form of contraception is infallible, pregnancy can still occur. Would you be suggesting that these women be forced to carry a pregnancy that not only were they taking contraception to protect against, but also stand to be harmed by?
Or are you suggesting that women with myriad health complaints be expected to remain celibate to conform to some people they do not know nor care abouts morals?
Shanti,
There is no Yes
you misconstrue my point deliberately.
I do comprehend and I do care.
You want a situation where the imperative to consider the consequences and to act accordingly is reduced.
“The imperative to consider the consequences and to act accordingly is reduced.”
In other words, sex is purely for procreation and in order to avoid pregnancy you must also avoid sex or “deal with the consequences”.
Well guess what, sex is not solely for procreation – if it were then humans would have preserved the oestrus, meaning we would only become aroused when females are ovulating, in order to maximise the chances of conception. We don’t, we do it for pleasure, as do several other species.
If you are expecting grown women to remain celibate for their entire lives because they *could* get pregnant in spite of contraception just so that your morals can be upheld then you have issues.
What about termination for medical reasons? It’s not even that those women want the baby to die but they weren’t given any choice in that, nature had other plans. You would force them to carry and maximise their grief because of *your* beliefs? That is not respecting human rights, that’s inflicting cruel and unusual punishment.
Shanti, that was a long post and there was nothing new in it. I still remain unconvinced.
Shanti,
What is this ‘grown woman’ you talk about?
A mindless adolescent child who seeks pleasure without thinking about the consequences?
Who wants to imitate some animals?
Well James, you’re just trolling so who cares where you stand?
Jim.. You do realise that a health condition that will be worsened by pregnancy is a long term thing right? Funnily enough it’s the kind of thing that doesn’t tend to present itself in adolescence – the woman is more likely to discover this in her twenties and thirties.
But of course.. That doesn’t fit your narrative does it? And when I mentioned the oestrus it’s because we EVOLVED past it. Same way we developed contraception and abortion. Because our intelligence was what drove that evolution (mind you, some of our animal friends can abort at will).
You are suggesting that sex is only for procreation – you are wrong. That’s just what your beliefs are, the evidence shows different. Without contraception only 80% of encounters result in fertilization, up to 80% of those are flushed out with the next menses and nearly half of them will miscarry before week 13. If sex was solely for procreation it would have a better success rate – like when animals wait for the oestrus (when they’re “on heat”).
With respect Jim, please try to keep your religious beliefs out of women’s reproductive systems.
And you ignored the termination for medical reasons.. Of course.. Because then you’d have to come up with a reason for why your God saw fit to do that to the foetus.. Why God decided to torture someone who did nothing wrong (unless you wish to assume the worst and cast judgement on the grieving parents).
Ps – we ARE animals. Only someone with so much unbelievable arrogance that they refuse to accept their status as a mammal would try to deny this. We may like to think we are hot stuff, but we aren’t really.. Plenty of other species were granted gifts we can only dream of (such as being able to see beyond the rainbow spectrum, being able to hear outside our range, being able to fly etc.. If we were truly gods favorites, he had a weird way of showing it..)
Shanti’s definition of trolling: Anything or anyone that does not align with my view.
Jim, so the evil act of forcing women to go through with unwanted pregnancy to achieve a baby should not be done, is that what you are saying?
Abortion has been around for millennia and we are nowhere near any danger of becoming extinct. You don’t need to worry
As deputy head of the Government Joan, you might actually be in a position to change the laws you are complaining about – but then, talk is cheap.
I’m not pro or anti abortion. I have never been in that situation so frankly it’s very difficult for me to make a comment on it. However, the ministers comment in this article that Ireland has a “very good” maternity system really worries me. After having been through the system, I honestly don’t know how anyone can say that we have good maternity facilities. Not complaining about the doctors etc but rather the general system. I saw a woman give north in the waiting room in the rotunda! She was sitting there at least 30mins, clearly in pain and despite her husbands best efforts to get help…! Many woman are having to wait too many months for a scan. Not to mention the tiny little amount of space and privacy given in the wards. My cousin recently almost died after a caesarian section; hospital sent her home despite her complaints. She had a blood clot and only by a small chance was she found in time.
So to think that women in this country might have to undergo an abortion worries me as I can only imagine what a difficult decision it is, the mental and physical impacts that it would have on a person and I would just be worried that Ireland simply cannot provide adequate care. I’m not saying that this is a reason to prevent abortion; I just hope that if abortion is introduced – the legislation and it’s implementation recognises the gravity of the situation.
And as for Joan! Just shut up! Your party said a lot of things and never stuck to them so don’t be using this poor woman’s case to cash in on a few votes. Very distasteful. Your a minister, if it bothers you- you have more power than most to promote change.
I can’t understand how any one could think a fetus should have more rights then the woman that’s carrying if and also it’s.s woman issue don’t know why men think.they should.have.an opinion….
Well Marian, having an opinion is fine in fairness, we all have opinions, its just important that in the case of pregnancy that the pregnant woman has the final say over what happens with her own body, that’s all that matters really, bodily autonomy.
Pontius clearly you can’t or won’t read, I just said that everyone has opinions and having is an opinion is fine. I don’t find being called a feminist an insult, I presume I’m a ‘raging feminist’ because I say things you don’t like and you would prefer it if I was nice and quiet and knew my place.
Please show me an example of where I denied anyone else’s right to an opinion or freedom of speech. It seems to me that you are the one who has a problem with others expressing their opinion when you don’t like it. You called me a ‘raging feminist’ as an insult because you don’t like my opinions, well I don’t agree with your opinions but I haven’t called you anything.
Pontius – nice dedicated ad hominem there.
You can “read between the lines” all you like, but in reality all you are doing is assuming.. And we all know what that amounts to.
On and by the way Pontius – the father has made his feelings known. He’s taking a court action to have life support terminated. The only people ignoring his wishes are a) the law and b) the people who seem to assume that he’s being ignored and choosing to speak hypothetically and rather assumptively on his behalf..
It actually scares me to ever have another child in this backward country…….l actually cannot believe in this day and age that we are still having this conversation……
So……early election after all?
” Our abortion laws do not serve women well ” Yes Joanie and you do not serve man or woman well…now go on pull out of government and let us the people have our say
Burton’s argument is specious and facile but this is to be expected as all arguments for legal abortion follow this pattern. In any scenario where you have a conflict of rights and interests then anyone could say the solution ‘doesn’t serve them well’. For example I had to wait for an operation last year because there were other patients in greater need and their rights and interests had to be weighed up against mine. Could I say that the waiting list formula ‘didn’t serve me well’???
Nor does moan Burton or the slave labour party
It won’t wash now joan too little too late bye bye joan
Tell us something we don’t know Joan, you are really behind the times.
Joan should protect the unborn, they’re the only possible future votes any Labour Party will ever get
They do not serve the fathers as they provide half of the genetic material to create a life and this life is called a fetus but is a baby. Everyone was a fetus once and people forget this because it states then a fetus is a person and will develop into an individual that will become self reliant giving time. Therefore all fetuses should be classed as human and have human rights? My view is protection is better than having to do an abortion and people need to understand this, abortions will not cure AIDS or the psychological effects of having an abortion that do develop later and after the abortion. In a time of all those systems now that exist to prevent pregnancies, why should abortion be an option?
This government has used awful tragedies to do with poor / bad healthcare and useless healthcare staff as an excuse to bring in abortion little by little over time. Remember prevention is better than cure and the more scientists understand medicine and biology then the more awful abortions seem to be on living fetuses..
Neither should you stay – you have not served us but have looked after yourself and the Labour party law library friends
No shit Sherlock !!
@Dee4 it goes,to show how much you know about catholic church teachings. How long have you studied them?
Secular tolerance.
@dee4
As an Irish woman, a mother of seven, and an woman who has experienced complicated pregnancies including a life threatening one which required a termination of pregnancy (legally done before the abortion act of last year) I can say that the 8th amendment has served women well!
However that is not the point. The 8th amendment is not about “serving women”. It is about protecting unborn children from women who would seek to harm them. And in that it has done a good job.
Has it?
Up to 5000 women per year simply go to the UK or elsewhere. And crucially, we have no idea how many women self abort.
At least other countries take ownership of the abortion. They take statistics and try to develop policies to reduce the numbers.. Here we just send women overseas and try to pretend it’s jot happening.
So your life was endangered, glad to see you survived, not all women have been so lucky. And as for those who’s long term health has been adversely affected, well.. They may be alive but their quality of life is severely impeded..
And for what? To satisfy the morals of some exceptionally nosey people with control issues.
Medical procedures should not be in the constitution. They should be based upon best medical practice and clinical evidence. They most certainly should not be decided by an electorate that has been lied to by campaigners.
Yes it has Shanti.
And I agree that medical procedures should not be the constitution.And to that end, Abortion is not mentioned the constitution(you do know that don’t you?) The constitution is a document enshrining various rights. including human, institutional and State rights And the Irish constitution enshrines the right to life of unborn humans. What is wrong with that.
Anyway abortion is elective lifestyle procedure.
Didn’t Joan’s Government introduce this legislation?
You can never legislate for deliberate “murder”
Our Politicians are incompetent!
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