Support from readers like you keeps The Journal open.
You are visiting us because we have something you value. Independent, unbiased news that tells the truth. Advertising revenue goes some way to support our mission, but this year it has not been enough.
If you've seen value in our reporting, please contribute what you can, so we can continue to produce accurate and meaningful journalism. For everyone who needs it.
THE BERTIE AHERN revival roadshow has been hard to miss.
You’ve most likely been made aware of his new podcast in collaboration with Newstalk, or heard the news about him officially rejoining Fianna Fáil after his resignation from the party in 2012.
You may have heard soundbites from his appearance alongside Alistair Campbell at an Ibec event in the Mansion House, or his stint as a talking head on popular British current affairs podcast The News Agents.
Today, you might have seen pictures of him donning a tasseled mortarboard as he received an honorary doctorate from DCU for his “part in forging the Good Friday Agreement” alongside Monica McWilliams.
“The island of Ireland is lucky to have a man of your patience, your persistence,” McWilliams said of her counterpart.
McWilliams, founder of the Northern Ireland Women’s Coalition, further described Bertie as having “the gift of humility” and a knack for “always being able to see the other’s perspective”. She told the audience that he had been her “rock” throughout the Good Friday Agreement negotiations.
This is the kind of effusive praise that has followed him for the last few weeks. Introduced on The News Agents podcast for a discussion about the Windsor Framework, it was said that: “What he doesn’t know about negotiating these deals isn’t worth knowing.”
Business is booming for Bertie. But what exactly is he up to?
It might be that Ahern has simply reemerged as a sort of free-to-use primary source for the silver anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement, but his current omnipresence has many wondering whether the Drumcondra man fancies a seven-year spell in Phoenix Park.
Whether Ahern plans to run for president remains a mystery. The former Taoiseach has been coy when asked direct questions about the subject, though today he gave an answer that may offer some insight into his thinking.
Advertisement
“That’s not on my agenda. If it ever arises, the first thing is to live that long. I’ve lost so many friends, even since Christmas,” he said. Ahern will be 73 in September and around 75 by the time of the next presidential election, five years older than Michael D Higgins was when he first took office in 2011.
Ahern also cited his role on the Council of State over the last 26 years as a reason to keep quiet. As a former Taoiseach, Ahern sits on the council which advises the president on the exercise of his powers, and said that it would be “disrespectful to our president” to talk about the presidency. Nevertheless, Ahern refuses to rule out a run.
It is possible, of course, that Ahern has simply been missing the limelight. Ahern remains the longest-serving Taoiseach since Eamon De Valera, having served as Ireland’s head of government for just shy of 11 years.
A former foot soldier of Charlie Haughey’s, a finance minister at the outset of the Celtic Tiger and Taoiseach throughout its peak, a significant player in the Northern Ireland peace process, and a figure that was rarely out of the headlines, it is easy to speculate that Bertie might just miss the life that was once his day-to-day.
It doesn’t seem too far-fetched to suggest he’s enjoying the adulation without the responsibility that comes with holding public office. The chance to hold forth, shake hands and rub shoulders with little danger of hearing the words “Mahon tribunal” – two words that would surely resurface with a vengeance should he announce any intention to represent the public once more.
As it stands, Ahern is free to enjoy the kind of rose-tinted tributes usually reserved for those who are not planning a comeback. Even current Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has walked back his 2008 criticism of Ahern, wherein he said Ahern had “essentially given the John Gilligan defence — that he won the money on the horses” to the tribunal.
“This is a defence for drug dealers and pimps and not the kind of thing that should be tolerated from a former Taoiseach and member of this house,” Varadkar said in 2008.
Asked about the comments a few weeks ago, Varadkar said those remarks were made at a “particular point in time” and switched the focus to Ahern’s role in the Northern Ireland peace process.
To a certain kind of mind, it looks like Bertie is campaigning for something, and at a pace that could not possibly kept up for the next two-and-a-half years.
A protest staged during today’s ceremony by the Connolly Youth Movement, who labelled Ahern “the architect of the financial crisis which ruined the lives of so many young people”, gives some sense of the resistance that Ahern could face if he is to re-enter public life.
Asked by The Journal about the protest, Ahern said: “I always like to see students doing their bit. I’m glad they had nothing better to do this morning, it was nice of them to come along and say hello to me.”
As unbothered as Ahern seemed by the protest, it could offer some insight into the purpose of the Bertie Ahern revival roadshow. He might not be campaigning for president, but he’s certainly campaigning for his own legacy.
Readers like you are keeping these stories free for everyone...
A mix of advertising and supporting contributions helps keep paywalls away from valuable information like this article.
Over 5,000 readers like you have already stepped up and support us with a monthly payment or a once-off donation.
To embed this post, copy the code below on your site
Close
47 Comments
This is YOUR comments community. Stay civil, stay constructive, stay on topic.
Please familiarise yourself with our comments policy
here
before taking part.
There is no risk of perforation for medical abortions, it was really shocking bias on RTE’s behalf from start to finish. The whole tone was ridiculously critical of women on web. In addition, there is no way of telling the difference between a miscarriage and medically induced abortion. The whole show was full of scaremongering and outright falsehoods. Shocking.
Medical abortion is the safest type of termination a women can have. Instead of being outraged that desperate women are using the best and cheapest possible resource available to them, let’s ask ourselves why they feel forced to do so. Because this country forces them into the situation. Banning abortion will never stop abortion, it just sweeps it under the rug. We need free, safe and legal abortion in Ireland, stop the exportation, stop the oppression!
Pregnancy occurs at all times and no one has the rig to make judgements on the circumstances a woman finds herself pregnant in. How or why or when she got pregnant is not the issue, what matters is her choice to continue the pregnancy or not. Pregnancy is an a condition only women face, and it is an issue that they have no choice in continuing or not under Irish abortion laws. So yeah, women are forced.
Last time I checked my constitution extended the right to life for the unborn. So, it has something to do with every one of us when laws are being broken. With all the methods of contraceptions and the morning after pill widely available in Ireland it proves how selfish and shallow some people are that they would still procure an abortion. The fact that some women have had an abortion more times than there are fingers on their hands shows how blatent the abuse of the taxpayers funding is ongoing. So, when you have a section of society clamouring for abortion on demand I think you will find its very much my business if the taxpayer is expected to foot the bill. Maybe the lone cricketer has no problem with this, but I do.
Fiona we will have every Tom Dick and Harry getting pregnant and then having abortions if they legalize this. People need to use contraception if they don’t wish to have children. I don’t want children so therefore I pay for contraception rather than taking a risk and getting pregnant. Of course there is horrible situations involving rape etc. but there are other options ie. adoption. I am so against abortion, it’s a life for Gods sake!
TheLoneHurler your taxes and mine pay for smokers to have chemotherapy “on demand”, for alcoholics to have liver transplants, junkies to get methadone and for the morbidly obese to have gastric bands fitted. Do you consider that medical treatment “blatant abuse of taxpayers’ funding”?
And since when is the *Irish* taxpayer paying for women to have multiple abortions? Why should it concern you what the NHS does with its funding? Do your taxes contribute to the NHS?
“Pregnancy is an a condition only women face, and it is an issue that they have no choice in continuing or not under Irish abortion laws. So yeah, women are forced.”
Would you ever make up your mind? The pro-aborts claim that it’s a woman’s CHOICE.
“Last time I checked my constitution extended the right to life for the unborn. So, it has something to do with every one of us when laws are being broken. ”
The constitution also states that a woman’s place is in the home. We can assume then that every time you see a woman working, you let them know they in in breach of the constitution?
@Tayto… Your against abortion, probably due to religion and use contraception. Sure isn’t the catholic church against contraception?? Look at some African countries where aids is still an epidemic, they are told that god does not allow contraception and so it is banned, which is a load of bollox.
And adoption? Yeah that’s great. You tell the victim of a horrific crime like rape that she must now carry her assailants child for 9months against her will, essentially making her a hostage, and that after all that, shure there’s adoption! Who is anyone to decide what A woman should or should not do with her body? Who is anyone to play god and decide that they know best and abortion is bad? Who is anyone to make this women feel even worse? By being so adamantly against abortion you are making decisions that are not yours to make and the fact you make those decisions based on a book of fables written about a man YEARS after his death in a language that has been translated and basterdized so many times since it was originally written there is no way that anything is in true context anymore, a book of stories written by me who were named after the Beatles by the looks of things cos there were no Paul’s or Johns in the middle east or wherever back then is ridiculous. PS this man whom dictates your views, Jesus, I do hope you do not visualise him as any form of white man what so ever as he was most definately not.
Fiona you will get a shit load of response back on you opinion, and to be honest everybody will have great points weather it’s for or against, so don’t get defensive, to me fair to everyone it might be a good idea to make it legal, but it has to be for the right reasons whatever they are, it has to be better to support it and protect woman then let them off buying drugs on the internet and taken them without real medical support, I would take the view it is wrong for abortion but also take to view we have to protect the woman and support them in circumstances like abortion,
I think you should question the master of the rotundas biases. I’ve never heard even the strongest anti-choice campaigner make such a bollocks claim. Have you ever heard of a woman miscarrying suffer from perforations? No? Well that’s because it can’t happen unless something physical is inserted which doesn’t happen during medical abortions. Medical abortions induces miscarriage and it is impossible to tell the differences between the two.
I think it’s unwise for him to be giving women scaremongering information that is related to the dangers of surgical abortions when speaking about medical abortions and after giving what is categorically, easily verifiably false information it would make me seriously question him and his affiliations.
Your constitution? Are you a Sovereign state? Well don’t worry, nobody is going to take the unborn inside you away, unless they do a psych test and see how much of a lunatic you are.
Where is your evidence of women from Ireland receiving 9 abortions btw?
I agree. It’s not my body, not my choice and I no not of the circumstances the woman is in. What kind of country is this that makes our problem someone else’s? it should be the woman’s right to decide what is right for her.
Yea Fiona
because in your opinion, everyone who is against abortion is so because of religion..
Grow up
People can be against this barbaric practice and not have an ounce of faith or belong to any church.
@Fiona
Please list your obstetric and/or gynacological qualifications so we can see why you believe you can insult one of the most highly qualified and respected medics in the country.
Bridget, I never mentioned religion once you’re probably getting me mixed up with someone else.
And no Mike I’m not an obstetrician. But the claim made last night was absolutely false, as the doctor from women on web tried to testify. Google it, you won’t find that accusation on even the life institute, it’s absolutely false and related to the potential risk for surgical abortion. That is a fact and easily verified. I suggest you verify it yourself instead of blindly believing a man whose claims were put into question by the other doctor on the show who had 25 years experience in providing terminations to women.
An acorn is to a tree what an embryo is to human life, just a possibility. No matter what form of contraception a female uses, at least 1 in every 100 females will become pregnant while using contraception. The morning after pill would need to be taken by every woman, everytime she has sex, even when she is using contraception if she is to 100% sure to stop herself from becoming pregnant. Alternatively men could keep control over their sperm and not have sex, they could also have a snip or they could realise that once they ejaculate they lose all control over what happens to that sperm until and unless it results in a human life. There are many taxpayers who would much rather fund services that allow woman autoonomy over their own bodies, then pay for children that are not wanted before they are born and in some cases not carried for properly after they are born, mostly by fathers who happily abandone both the child and the mother. You will of course know that almost every section in society is in favour of limited abortions rights in Ireland. You’re definitely hurling alone when your trying to convince people with your ignorant arguements regarding abortions and contraception reliability. Your lone cricketer, lone hurler analogy is so misogynistic, but its very reflective of the point of veiw you put forwand.
@Fraj
“Would you ever make up your mind? The pro-aborts claim that it’s a woman’s CHOICE.”‘
People who are pro choice support a woman’s choice to decide whether she wants to remain pregnant or not. If a woman is forced to remain pregnant because she cannot obtain an abortion when she wants one, then yes, she is begin forced against her will to remain pregnant.
So..
Richard Just because people believe in God dosen’t mean that they still can’t have an opinion on abortion..
It might be reenforced by their faith or not they are still entitled to hold it..
Why don’t you go on to Secular Pro Life site or Atheist Pro Life sites, I do, they are very interesting as well..
My point is that you Don’t have to be anyway Religious to be against intentional abortion.
Bridget – Ah come on, Pro Life prior to finding your faith? Am I to assume you were not indoctrinated into the Catholic Church as an infant? Interesting that you call yourself pro life when on another thread you advocated the hanging of a man, when is it ok not to be ProLIfe?
I would argue that what another persons autonomy is none of your business when it in no way affects you. Further, you have previously espoused your religious views on this site, which makes it other people’s business. Funny how you are happy for your faith to impact on the lives of others, which is what ‘faith’ does, but when the others question your faith, you state it is none of their business. I don’t want you faith to be any if my business, but unfortunately other people’s faith impacts on my life every day.
Bridget – I do not have you confused with anyone else, on April 15 at 4.26pm you wrote:
“If you have ever seen or held a newborn and imagine that happening to it, you would call for that man to be hanged..”
We are all born atheist and therefore are all strictly speaking from a non religious background, but I do not believe you were not brought up in an Irish Catholic household, your name would suggest you are named after she who brings the spring and I do not mean the sun.
At least be honest enough to admit to your old posts for it is too easy to call you out on it.
Bridget, I’ve seen you support abortion in circumstances where the mother may come to harm and say nobody would deny an abortion in those circumstances. I told you they do and you called me all sorts of names.
Later you denied ever showing your support for abortion in those circumstances and claimed abortion in the case of TFMR and FFA was wrong.
So which Bridget do we have today? You can’t be surprised if people don’t believe you. You don’t even believe yourself.
So do you value your rights over that of the
Unborn. Good job your parents were of a different opinion.
It’s not about only your rights, but also that of the vulnerable and those with no voice. Sure there are cases where this is a last resort. Also nothing was stopping these women from going over to England and having a medical abortion. Just out of curiosity at what week do you consider it too late to abort. Wondering when a foetus qualifies as a human in your eyes
Nothing stops women from travelling? You can’t be that naive? Financial issues, health issues, emotional issues, asylum and immigration issues, being in an unsafe relationship, all factors that prevent women from travelling everyday! And I don’t think the issue of weeks and months should be a factor, if Ireland had free safe and legal abortions then the majority of terminations would take place before the 12th week, long before viability as is the case in England.
Issues of viability and late term abortions are a product of the ban, where women are forced to delay their terminations, be that because they must save the money to travel over the course of weeks, can’t leave their children or any number of reasons!
First,
when you accuse me of Advocating hanging & when I said I didn’t comment on any hanging thread ever,
I knew I didn’t because its usually always abortion issues I comment on..
That comment was on an abortion thread, Gosnell, the absolute horrific, gruesome case of abortions
Second
By Saying “you” would call for him to be hanged is NOT the same as advocating anyone to be hung ever!
So no, I don’t advocate hanging but in cases like that I can truly say I can understand how some people might support it..
She said “you would call for that man to be hanged”… Thats not advocating hanging!!
Everyone says things to emphasise a point.. Eg he should be hung, drawn and quartered or i’ll fecking kill him.. It doesnt mean you approve of murder or violence
Bridget is one of the most kind hearted and courteous posters on the Journal. Dont twist her words to try and make her look bad. She hasnt a bad bone in her body..
Answered like a politician Fiona. Nice way of evading my question. It’s valid question and should be answered, if not to me then at least to yourself.
My point being when does a child have rights, why is it in your eyes that it only has them once born. A bit like out of site out of mind.
Don’t buy your reasons for not being able to jump on a plane. The reasons given above could also qualify if it was done locally.
The problem is you like most people on either side of the argument treat it like a black or white situation, when it is obviously not. Sure there are cases when abortions are the better decision.
But don’t write back and say in all cases abortions are ok, regardless of the situation. Incase your wondering I am not some religious nut, I am actually atheist with generally liberal views. One thing is for sure Fiona, this argument is going to continue for some time to come.
Bridget – so you did write it? And it was a direct quote, no omissions or additions? You can call it what you like, but it is advocating to me, which is not very ProLife and not very Christian.
Denial again. What a sorry state of affairs if you say things to get a rise and find yourself later denying them. No backbone to behind your own remarks nor apologise for them
No Bridget, I’m just here to call you out on your lies.
I’m an honest person that will either stand by what I say or apologise if what I said caused offense or was misconstrued.
You however say things and later deny them. You and Sinéad can’t stand by what you say, despite the obvious fact that you said it. It’s shallow and pathetic.
My mother is pro choice. She *chose* to have me. What’s your point?
Many mothers are pro choice. Did you see people calling those on the pro choice side “pro abortion” and mistakenly assume that this meant we all thought all pregnancies should be aborted? Because that would just be silly.. There’s a reason the word choice is involved.
Well the kind folk at women on web are only looking for €90… so off you go.
I think it would be ideal to have a referendum tomorrow for abortion on demand. To vote you must supply your PPS number. A yes vote will see your tax increase or social welfare cut on a pro-rata basis to cover all these lifestyle abortions that we currently ban in Ireland.
“It is such a shocking indictment of our country that in this day and age our young women have to resort to the internet for help.”
Yes, and It is an even worse indictment of our country that in this day and age that the best some so-called adults can offer our young women with a crisis pregnancy is the medieval solution of killing their babies.
.
Leave him…. hes been reading the american anti-choice leaflets they’ve been pushing through the door… If he wants to force his religious believes on others so be it but the idea it’s for the benefit of the tax payer or any rational reason other than ‘URRRGH… I am MAN, Women Do what I say’ is a delusion of the American evangelical Christian lobby.
I’d gladly agree to such deal. Btw your getting stuck with the child benefit cost which alone is 4X the cost of an abortion proceedure €2K, not to mention the cost to the tax payer of giving birth in a public hospital €3-5K…
Medical costs are shared across the board. There are people in hospital who smoke, drink, drive recklessly, cross the road without looking, come down with measles because they weren’t vaccinated… the list is endless. Many of these people have conditions that are self-inflicted. They are being treated using taxpayers’ money.
Are you going to start campaigning to have treatment withdrawn from them because they got lung cancer from smoking or liver cancer from drinking or lost their legs in a car accident because they were speeding?
My guess? No.
This is NOT a money issue. And even if it was, it would be a TINY droplet in the vast ocean of money that’s pumped into the HSE. This is a humanitarian issue. Women are humans. Abortion is part of the medical spectrum and sometimes it’s a necessary procedure for a woman to have.
I know you have a MASSIVE bee in your bonnet about this issue and I know from your comments on here previously about your history and why you’re so against abortion. That’s fine. You’re allowed to be. But don’t attempt to mask your own personal feelings about the issue by talking about taxpayers’ money.
“It is an even worse indictment of our country that in this day and age that the best some so-called adults can offer our young women with a crisis pregnancy is the medieval solution of killing their babies.”
Women of all ages, from their teens up to their 40s, choose abortion. Not all women with an unwanted pregnancy are vulnerable. Not all women with an unwanted pregnancy are at crisis levels. Women know their own minds.
The idea that women can be coerced into having an abortion when she doesn’t want one is pervasive but is hardly the norm. Are there some women who are talked into having an abortion by a persistent partner or family member? I’m sure there are. But most women make up their own minds.
This article deals with the fact that a woman so desperate to not be pregnant orders pills off a website, even when she knows it’s illegal. What we need to focus more on is why a woman would risk jail because she doesn’t want to be pregnant.
We can keep saying abortion is wrong. But abortion keeps happening. Even when it’s illegal. This is what Ireland, as a society, needs to focus on.
I’m not going to get into a debate about the difference between abortion and child abuse/rape/murder. And this refusal to deal with the reality of abortion is getting quite tiresome. It happens. Women find themselves in untenable situations and they make the choice. The law is on their side. The law is not on the side of child abusers, rapists and murderers.
Why are people in Ireland so against women simply having the right to choose,the right to medical treatment and advice to determine the best outcome for her personal circumstances in a safe envoirment ???!STOP treating women like second class citizens.
Christina. I assume you don’t think it’s ok to murder a child when they’re outside the womb. So how come you think it’s ok to murder a child when it’s inside the womb.
The very definition of a loaded question. Equating abortion to murder is your opinion and right to do. Yet you ask the question as though it’s fact.
Murder is the intentionally killing of a person. Foetuses are NOT people. That is beyond dispute, because even if in Ireland they have legal protection, they lack the most basic thing needed to be considered a person: an identity. No more than the sperm and egg before fertilisation, they are not legally persons, even in Ireland.
The issue though is that at 39 weeks, the unborn is still considered a foetus. So where do we stand at an abortion at 39 weeks because its still technically a foetus and going on your comment that makes it ok.
That’s pseudo legal nonsense. Nowhere in Irish law will you find a definition of what a person is or isn’t. What you will find is a Constitution that recognises everybody’s right to live without a threat to them, be they born or unborn, and where unborn has an indefinite starting point. Seems like a pretty clear endorsement to me.
Ger, your statement is harsh. A foetus is the start of human life. if you were aborted as a foetus then you would not be here.
Abortion first needs to be defined….a foetus at 8 weeks is different to that of 20 weeks.
For all pro abortionists when do you believe a foetus can’t feel pain? do you believe an abortion is ok at 20 weeks?
Ger. So how do you define identy. Are you tell me a new born baby who birth hasn’t being registered with the births death and marriage office isn’t a person and by your logic then can be murder. Cop yourself on.
Why then, if you assault a pregnant woman and she miscarries as a result, are you not charged with murder? Or even manslaughter? I’ll tell you why, because Irish law does not consider a foetus to be a person.
Using terminology to describe the different stages of development does not take away from the fact it’s still a human with the same right to life as you & I
“What you will find is a Constitution that recognises everybody’s right to live without a threat to them, be they born or unborn, and where unborn has an indefinite starting point.”
And yet the state allows the free travel of women to the UK to have abortions. No one is allowed to prevent her from leaving. No one is allowed to deny her access to the information she needs to make an informed and personal choice. If you attempted to block her travel to the UK, you would be arrested by the police, not the woman. She is LEGALLY entitled to travel to the UK.
So the government IS in support of women having abortions, just not in this country. A hypocrisy I find incredibly hard to swallow.
Allow women to make up their own minds. We’ve been doing it for a long time. We know how to make decisions. Trust us.
“You can also travel freely to take drugs in Amsterdam. Or travel to Syria to join ISIS, It doesn’t mean the government supports it.” Actually, many governments are taking steps to prevent the second one. These would be comparable situations the minute the Irish people vote in a referendum to ensure that there is constitutional protection of travelling to Amsterdam to do drugs, similar to the Thirteenth Amendment.
Mere semantics. In 1992, the people voted in favour of the right to travel and the right to information in a referendum. It is a legal fact. It’s in the constitution. The government supports it. Because they are bound by the will of the people.
“If you dont have the ability to see the zygotes potential only its inconvenience, then its very sad.” Yes, it’s almost as if women who have abortions feel that they’re unable to deal with pregnancy and childrearing. But forcing them to parent, that will definitely solve the problem!
@ See My Vest
This s where acknowledging that women are sane and sensible human beings come in. How many women do you know that would remain pregnant for 39 weeks before they decide they don’t want to become a parent or would not want everything possible done to save the foetus as well as herself should a medical crisis occur?
Indeed, Sinead – plenty of parents go through life never loving their children. To say otherwise ignores the massive amount of child abuse which occurs. Perhaps if you had been abused as a child, you’d be a bit more reluctant to force a parent to give birth.
I think ending the myths that you peddle (all parents love their children! Everyone wants to be a parent! No parent ever feels angry and resentful because they had children!) is a pretty important factor, yep.
Sinead, even if a parent loves his/her child, does not mean s(he) capable of showing that love. Just because you have not met them, does not mean there are not men and women out there who regret becoming parents, and not just when there are stresses. And, yes, I have met them, read their blogs etc
“I have never met a woman who didnt love her children with all her heart. There is no greater love in the world than a mothers love. ” That remark is naive and incredibly insensitive to every child who was beaten by their mother or whose mother looked the other way when they were raped or sexually abused. People like you are the reason that abuse gets ignored and overlooked, because you can’t fathom that every mother isn’t loving.
Forgive me for not believing you have the best understanding of reality.
Sinéad never met a woman that didn’t love her children- so it MUST be true in all situations.
Sinéad had an abortion and regretted it – so the same MUST be true of all women.
Hey Sinéad, remember the other day when you told people on a forum that I accused you of making up your abortion story. That wasn’t true, as you know. You can apologise if you wish, as I actually defended you when another poster made those accusations. You’re also welcome.
Really? I said that all mothers love their children. I didnt say that all mothers were loving. We all know thats not the case. The fact is that some women are damaged and need help. Not to be pointed in the direction of the nearest abortion clinic.
A friend of mine was beaten by her mother many times during her childhood. She was an alcoholic. She gave up alcohol when my friend was in her teens and they didnt speak for a long time. But after counselling things are good now. Not perfect but my friend is happy and thats good. Are u telling me that mother doesnt love her daughter?
“People like me are the reason abuse gets ignored or overlooked”
Aaron.. I wont comment on any particular case. But i think any woman that murders her child is full of hate and not love. How anyone could do that, i dont know. Its beyond sick.
I would imagine as soon as their existence is not contingent upon another person’s body to exist..
I mean, if a woman miscarries prior to 24 weeks there are no records kept save her medical ones. After 24 weeks, she is issued a birth and death cert for the baby. This is because at that stage, delivery could possibly result in a healthy baby.
At say, 16 weeks, if the woman goes into labour and delivers then that foetus cannot survive, even with all the medical intervention in the world, it hasn’t finished developing to a point where it is capable of being separate.
That’s what I would consider the cut off point, and if they develop a way to transplant unwanted pregnancies into pro life women’s wombs to stop the need for abortion I say bring it on.
Very sad that the women of Ireland have to resort to this because of those who put their own beliefs in front of Irish citizens welfare. There was some prolife spokesperson on primetime tonight disgusting.
What a pathetic bunch of misinformed and under educated bunch of people you lot are, the way I see it is if you are not Pro-Choice you are a misogynist and representing an very dark and dying part of Irish history. The fact that we even have to vote on this is disgusting and again a national embarrassment due to backwards politics that’s riddled with religion. Everyone is entitled to their opinion I just wonder why pro life people have to shove it down your throats
Of course you can be anti-choice while not being religious. Whatever you want to believe or not is your choice.
But the fact is, the reason Ireland is so backwards when it comes to reproductive health is the influence the church had. Bans on contraception, abortion etc. were all put in place because of the power the catholic church had.
Prolifers on comment threads, reinforce the need for abortion to be legal. Lol. Don’t like abortion don’t have one. Simples!
Sorry to be crass, but every month a potential life is lost in my toilet. lol! Every weekend a potential life is lost down some lads johnny. I mean if people are going to decided when a human is a human, maybe they should consider how far that concept goes……. the other direction. Might start wailing and having a mass in my bathroom every month.
Then maybe you will see how ridiculous you are being considering a zygote a human.
Ah I remember that time when my doctor supervised every dose of antibiotic I took for fear I might put it up my nose or in my ear…. WTF was dr coulter smith taking about the wrong route? Does he think women are so stupid when it comes to our reproductive health that we can’t follow basic dosing instructions?
When are those religious freaks who are still living in the stone age going to stop telling everyone else how to live their lives. If a woman doesn’t want to go through with a pregnancy then that is nobody else’s business, women should be able to go a clinic and get this procedure and any pther they choose without having religious nutters interfering.
Ireland needs to drag itself into the 21st century so women are no longer treated as second class citizens
How backward can a country be in 21st century Europe where women are prosecuted for the crime of having control of their own reproductive organs.
Those people who believe abortion is wrong need never have one but please do not interfere with others who do not share such medieval views.
Administering drugs or using instruments to procure abortion.
58. Every woman, being with child, who, with intent to procure her own miscarriage, shall unlawfully administer to herself any poison or other noxious thing, or shall unlawfully use any instrument or other means whatsoever with the like intent, and whosoever, with intent to procure the miscarriage of any woman, whether she be or be not with child, shall unlawfully administer to her or cause to be taken by her any poison or other noxious thing, or shall unlawfully use any instrument or other means whatsoever with the like intent, shall be guilty of felony, and being convicted thereof shall be liable . . . to be kept in penal servitude for life . . .
Procuring drugs, &c. to cause abortion.
59. Whosoever shall unlawfully supply or procure any poison or other noxious thing, or any instrument or thing whatsoever, knowing that the same is intended to be unlawfully used or employed with intent to procure the miscarriage of any woman, whether she be or be not with child, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and being convicted thereof shall be liable . . . to be kept in penal servitude . . .
The new law isn’t much better, it criminalises women to up to 14 years imprisonment. What’s ironic is that the old law was not enforceable whereas the protection of life during pregnancy act criminalises both the woman who procures the abortion and also anyone who aids her in doing so up to and it’s wording is vague enough to include any physician who does not report her if she presents with complications.
The 1861 Act was and still is enforceable. Its just that we as a society choose not to do so. We turn a blind eye to illegality of the highest form. Why are the Gardai not prosecuting persons who import the abortion pills under the 1861 Act?
Penal servitude is defined as imprisonment with hard labour. There is no hard labour in our prison system anymore so the very clear sentence in the legislation cannot be imposed. A judge’s job is to uphold what is written in law, not change the sentence to the nearest possible alternative.
If you’re too lazy to even look at the provisions of the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act or keep up to date with the laws in relation to abortion here, then you really have no place making comments about what can and can’t happen to a woman who procures an abortion in Ireland.
Hi Tomas, there’s no need to be abusive.
Even though Im not a lawyer, I am a citizen and I am entitled to speak.
Also, the laws in relation to procuring an abortion do not only apply to women.
You’re right, Paul. It speaks volumes that if a couple together decide that the best option is to buy pills from women on web, the woman would be committing an offence but not her partner who just emotionally supports her and make the decision with her.
And you’ve pointed out the hypocrisy of the law quite well – very few people support prosecuting women who buy these pills, so any kind of penalties for women are unpopular and pointless.
Offering emotional support is not illegal but If the woman’s partner procured the pills, he or she would be liable to prosecution. In fact anyone who procures the pills with the intention of procuring an abortion is open to prosecution.
Why are these 60 cases not being prosecuted?
Paul, as someone who has studied abortion law in Ireland in detail for the past 2 years and has written academic legal pieces on the topic of the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act, I can assure you that sections 58 and 59 of the 1861 Act were most definitely repealed by section 5 of the 2013 Act. In fact it quite explicitly repeals the sections, there’s no grey area about that. As for being abusive, well that’s not at all accurate. I haven’t been abusive. If you want to argue the legal side of abortion in Ireland at least do the very basic research and know what the law actually is at the moment (and has been since January 2014). People who wish to deny a woman her right to bodily autonomy need to at least be able to back up their arguments and shouldn’t just scream “abuse” when someone points out their clear ignorance in relation to the topic they wish to discuss.
“Why are these 60 cases not being prosecuted?” Because prosecutions would be completely condemned by 99% of Irish people and laws against abortion would be overturned in a week. Thus why not even Youth Defence supports these prosecutions.
1. “Paul as someone who has studied abortion law in Ireland in detail for the past 2 years and has written academic legal pieces on the topic of the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act, I can assure you that sections 58 and 59 of the 1861 Act were most definitely repealed by section 5 of the 2013 Act.”
I already apologised to you for not knowing that sections 58 and 59 had been repealed and thanks again for pointing this out to me. We are not all legal scholars, but we are entitled to speak. Why did you feel it necessary to point this out again?
2. In fact it quite explicitly repeals the sections, there’s no grey area about that.
I don’t remember mentioning grey areas
3. As for being abusive, well that’s not at all accurate. I haven’t been abusive.
I would consider calling someone “lazy’ mildly abusive. Not exactly the end of the world stuff but not very friendly either.
4. If you want to argue the legal side of abortion in Ireland at least do the very basic research and know what the law actually is at the moment (and has been since January 2014).
Nobody argues with perfect knowledge. We learn as we go. Well I hope to anyway. You kindly informed of something I didn’t know today.
5. People who wish to deny a woman her right to bodily autonomy need to at least be able to back up their arguments and shouldn’t just scream “abuse” when someone points out their clear ignorance in relation to the topic they wish to discuss.
I don’t wish to deny a “woman her right to bodily autonomy”.
I don’t think I screamed abuse.
1. “Paul as someone who has studied abortion law in Ireland in detail for the past 2 years and has written academic legal pieces on the topic of the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act, I can assure you that sections 58 and 59 of the 1861 Act were most definitely repealed by section 5 of the 2013 Act.”
I already apologised to you for not knowing that sections 58 and 59 had been repealed and thanks again for pointing this out to me. We are not all legal scholars, but we are entitled to speak. Why did you feel it necessary to point this out again?
2. In fact it quite explicitly repeals the sections, there’s no grey area about that.
I don’t remember mentioning grey areas
3. As for being abusive, well that’s not at all accurate. I haven’t been abusive.
I would consider calling someone “lazy’ mildly abusive. Not exactly the end of the world stuff but not very friendly either.
4. If you want to argue the legal side of abortion in Ireland at least do the very basic research and know what the law actually is at the moment (and has been since January 2014).
Nobody argues with perfect knowledge. We learn as we go. Well I hope to anyway. You kindly informed of something I didn’t know today.
5. People who wish to deny a woman her right to bodily autonomy need to at least be able to back up their arguments and shouldn’t just scream “abuse” when someone points out their clear ignorance in relation to the topic they wish to discuss.
I don’t wish to deny a “woman her right to bodily autonomy”.
I don’t think I screamed abuse.
Pro-Choice is taking the required steps to prevent an unwanted pregnancy e.g. Responsibility, ending an unwanted pregnancy is murder, ending an unwanted pregnancy from abuse or unjust causes is justice. If we can kill babies at will, how long before we start killing old people in nursing homes?
Gaza at critical risk of famine, with one in five facing starvation
1 hr ago
978
Racing
'I feel the time is right': Jockey Rachael Blackmore announces retirement
The 42
6 mins ago
262
1
Dublin
Garda killed at speed checkpoint in north county Dublin
Niall O'Connor
Updated
21 hrs ago
143k
Your Cookies. Your Choice.
Cookies help provide our news service while also enabling the advertising needed to fund this work.
We categorise cookies as Necessary, Performance (used to analyse the site performance) and Targeting (used to target advertising which helps us keep this service free).
We and our 187 partners store and access personal data, like browsing data or unique identifiers, on your device. Selecting Accept All enables tracking technologies to support the purposes shown under we and our partners process data to provide. If trackers are disabled, some content and ads you see may not be as relevant to you. You can resurface this menu to change your choices or withdraw consent at any time by clicking the Cookie Preferences link on the bottom of the webpage .Your choices will have effect within our Website. For more details, refer to our Privacy Policy.
We and our vendors process data for the following purposes:
Use precise geolocation data. Actively scan device characteristics for identification. Store and/or access information on a device. Personalised advertising and content, advertising and content measurement, audience research and services development.
Cookies Preference Centre
We process your data to deliver content or advertisements and measure the delivery of such content or advertisements to extract insights about our website. We share this information with our partners on the basis of consent. You may exercise your right to consent, based on a specific purpose below or at a partner level in the link under each purpose. Some vendors may process your data based on their legitimate interests, which does not require your consent. You cannot object to tracking technologies placed to ensure security, prevent fraud, fix errors, or deliver and present advertising and content, and precise geolocation data and active scanning of device characteristics for identification may be used to support this purpose. This exception does not apply to targeted advertising. These choices will be signaled to our vendors participating in the Transparency and Consent Framework.
Manage Consent Preferences
Necessary Cookies
Always Active
These cookies are necessary for the website to function and cannot be switched off in our systems. They are usually only set in response to actions made by you which amount to a request for services, such as setting your privacy preferences, logging in or filling in forms. You can set your browser to block or alert you about these cookies, but some parts of the site will not then work.
Targeting Cookies
These cookies may be set through our site by our advertising partners. They may be used by those companies to build a profile of your interests and show you relevant adverts on other sites. They do not store directly personal information, but are based on uniquely identifying your browser and internet device. If you do not allow these cookies, you will experience less targeted advertising.
Functional Cookies
These cookies enable the website to provide enhanced functionality and personalisation. They may be set by us or by third party providers whose services we have added to our pages. If you do not allow these cookies then these services may not function properly.
Performance Cookies
These cookies allow us to count visits and traffic sources so we can measure and improve the performance of our site. They help us to know which pages are the most and least popular and see how visitors move around the site. All information these cookies collect is aggregated and therefore anonymous. If you do not allow these cookies we will not be able to monitor our performance.
Store and/or access information on a device 126 partners can use this purpose
Cookies, device or similar online identifiers (e.g. login-based identifiers, randomly assigned identifiers, network based identifiers) together with other information (e.g. browser type and information, language, screen size, supported technologies etc.) can be stored or read on your device to recognise it each time it connects to an app or to a website, for one or several of the purposes presented here.
Personalised advertising and content, advertising and content measurement, audience research and services development 165 partners can use this purpose
Use limited data to select advertising 129 partners can use this purpose
Advertising presented to you on this service can be based on limited data, such as the website or app you are using, your non-precise location, your device type or which content you are (or have been) interacting with (for example, to limit the number of times an ad is presented to you).
Create profiles for personalised advertising 91 partners can use this purpose
Information about your activity on this service (such as forms you submit, content you look at) can be stored and combined with other information about you (for example, information from your previous activity on this service and other websites or apps) or similar users. This is then used to build or improve a profile about you (that might include possible interests and personal aspects). Your profile can be used (also later) to present advertising that appears more relevant based on your possible interests by this and other entities.
Use profiles to select personalised advertising 92 partners can use this purpose
Advertising presented to you on this service can be based on your advertising profiles, which can reflect your activity on this service or other websites or apps (like the forms you submit, content you look at), possible interests and personal aspects.
Create profiles to personalise content 44 partners can use this purpose
Information about your activity on this service (for instance, forms you submit, non-advertising content you look at) can be stored and combined with other information about you (such as your previous activity on this service or other websites or apps) or similar users. This is then used to build or improve a profile about you (which might for example include possible interests and personal aspects). Your profile can be used (also later) to present content that appears more relevant based on your possible interests, such as by adapting the order in which content is shown to you, so that it is even easier for you to find content that matches your interests.
Use profiles to select personalised content 41 partners can use this purpose
Content presented to you on this service can be based on your content personalisation profiles, which can reflect your activity on this or other services (for instance, the forms you submit, content you look at), possible interests and personal aspects. This can for example be used to adapt the order in which content is shown to you, so that it is even easier for you to find (non-advertising) content that matches your interests.
Measure advertising performance 150 partners can use this purpose
Information regarding which advertising is presented to you and how you interact with it can be used to determine how well an advert has worked for you or other users and whether the goals of the advertising were reached. For instance, whether you saw an ad, whether you clicked on it, whether it led you to buy a product or visit a website, etc. This is very helpful to understand the relevance of advertising campaigns.
Measure content performance 69 partners can use this purpose
Information regarding which content is presented to you and how you interact with it can be used to determine whether the (non-advertising) content e.g. reached its intended audience and matched your interests. For instance, whether you read an article, watch a video, listen to a podcast or look at a product description, how long you spent on this service and the web pages you visit etc. This is very helpful to understand the relevance of (non-advertising) content that is shown to you.
Understand audiences through statistics or combinations of data from different sources 88 partners can use this purpose
Reports can be generated based on the combination of data sets (like user profiles, statistics, market research, analytics data) regarding your interactions and those of other users with advertising or (non-advertising) content to identify common characteristics (for instance, to determine which target audiences are more receptive to an ad campaign or to certain contents).
Develop and improve services 95 partners can use this purpose
Information about your activity on this service, such as your interaction with ads or content, can be very helpful to improve products and services and to build new products and services based on user interactions, the type of audience, etc. This specific purpose does not include the development or improvement of user profiles and identifiers.
Use limited data to select content 40 partners can use this purpose
Content presented to you on this service can be based on limited data, such as the website or app you are using, your non-precise location, your device type, or which content you are (or have been) interacting with (for example, to limit the number of times a video or an article is presented to you).
Use precise geolocation data 56 partners can use this special feature
With your acceptance, your precise location (within a radius of less than 500 metres) may be used in support of the purposes explained in this notice.
Actively scan device characteristics for identification 29 partners can use this special feature
With your acceptance, certain characteristics specific to your device might be requested and used to distinguish it from other devices (such as the installed fonts or plugins, the resolution of your screen) in support of the purposes explained in this notice.
Ensure security, prevent and detect fraud, and fix errors 107 partners can use this special purpose
Always Active
Your data can be used to monitor for and prevent unusual and possibly fraudulent activity (for example, regarding advertising, ad clicks by bots), and ensure systems and processes work properly and securely. It can also be used to correct any problems you, the publisher or the advertiser may encounter in the delivery of content and ads and in your interaction with them.
Deliver and present advertising and content 111 partners can use this special purpose
Always Active
Certain information (like an IP address or device capabilities) is used to ensure the technical compatibility of the content or advertising, and to facilitate the transmission of the content or ad to your device.
Match and combine data from other data sources 79 partners can use this feature
Always Active
Information about your activity on this service may be matched and combined with other information relating to you and originating from various sources (for instance your activity on a separate online service, your use of a loyalty card in-store, or your answers to a survey), in support of the purposes explained in this notice.
Link different devices 60 partners can use this feature
Always Active
In support of the purposes explained in this notice, your device might be considered as likely linked to other devices that belong to you or your household (for instance because you are logged in to the same service on both your phone and your computer, or because you may use the same Internet connection on both devices).
Identify devices based on information transmitted automatically 100 partners can use this feature
Always Active
Your device might be distinguished from other devices based on information it automatically sends when accessing the Internet (for instance, the IP address of your Internet connection or the type of browser you are using) in support of the purposes exposed in this notice.
Save and communicate privacy choices 83 partners can use this special purpose
Always Active
The choices you make regarding the purposes and entities listed in this notice are saved and made available to those entities in the form of digital signals (such as a string of characters). This is necessary in order to enable both this service and those entities to respect such choices.
have your say