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LAST NIGHT, IRISH pro-choice activists stood in solidarity with women in Poland who went on strike in protest against proposed strict new abortion laws.
There were Black Monday protests in several Irish locations including Dublin and Limerick that mirrored others that took place elsewhere in the continent.
The proposed Polish laws would introduce an outright ban on abortion in the devoutly Catholic country, where the law is already among the most restrictive in Europe.
Pro-choice activists used social media to launch the country-wide strike by women, urging them to stay away from work and school to attend street protests.
Around 2,000 people rallied outside the Warsaw headquarters of the governing right-wing Law and Justice (PiS) party, forming a “wall of fury” human chain.
The proposals did not come directly from politicians but from a pro-life citizens’ initiative that gathered 450,000 signatures.
Despite this, lawmakers pushed ahead with a controversial bill that would allow terminations only if the mother’s life is at risk and increase the maximum jail term for practitioners from two years to five.
The citizen’s initiative tabled in parliament by the Stop Abortion coalition would also make women who have terminations liable for prison terms, though judges could waive punishment in their case.
Poland’s influential Catholic Church gave the initiative its seal of approval earlier this year, though its bishops have since opposed jailing women.
Poland already has strict abortion laws but at present Ireland’s are more restrictive and the latent influence of Catholic teaching in both countries has drawn comparisons.
Currently in Poland, all terminations are banned except in cases of rape, incest or when there is a risk to the health of the mother.
A fortnight ago, Jane Donnelly of Atheist Ireland spoke at an abortion rally in Warsaw and emphasised the potential synergies between campaigns in Ireland and Poland.
“They have issues with the Catholic church being very much in control over there as well, and I explained that we were in the same position,” she said, adding that women in Poland and Ireland are being similarly ignored by politicians.
They’re not being listened to but they’re on the streets protesting as well and I’m not sure the Polish state realises the amount of protest that is there against this, but we did raise it we got an opportunity to speak.
Atheist Ireland is part of the Coalition to Repeal the 8th Amendment umbrella group and Donnelly explains that the Polish pro-choice movement is organised in a similar way.
She says that Atheists Ireland has begun sharing information with its Polish counterparts on the abortion issue and that will continue into the future.
It’s not a guarantee that these new laws will come into effect and Newsweek Polska magazine showed that 74% of Poles want to keep the existing laws.
The European Parliament is also expected to debate women’s rights in Poland tomorrow.
- With reporting from © – AFP 2016
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Just to give justice to the scale of events in Poland. Between 17 to 30k protesters in Warsaw alone. Not much smaller crowds in other big cities. And what have to be said: it was raining as hell… In the country that is deeply divided on many subjects it was incredible to see such a wide agreement on the subject. Same in Polish internet, which I personally call the biggest battlefield of modern Europe.
@tomasz, 30k is a tiny percentage of the polish population. Big fail if you ask me.
1) 30k only in Warsaw which is home to less than 5℅ of Polish population 2) Protest took place on Monday meaning that you had to time off to participate and it is not so easy in Poland where employer-employee relationships are not as easy going as in Ireland. 3) The biggest success in my eyes is the unity of women from all walks of life. I have never seen anything like that before.
@The spokesman it is a huge number by any estimation. Taking the number protesting as an percent the population isn’t really the point…
@EvieXVI: If it was a “pro life” march,he would have said that it was YUGE!
So 2% of the Warsaw population turn up and its a success?
Any chance journal can give some genuine balance to the debate from both sides and some objective reporting for the mass middle ground who are not hardened “pro choice” or “pro life”
@Evie, taking the number protesting v the total population is exactly my point, if they had that much support there would be 10times more protesting like the anti war rallies in London and across the world 10 years ago, the propaganda is totally bias towards the pro death side.
@The spokesman: The word is ‘biased’. And you lost me at pro-death.
The spokesman: I will not try to convince you to anything, as I see that you have already made up your mind, but I want to leave you with this story: There was a girl in Rotunda hospital awaiting her much wanted baby. She was waiting for the most amazing day in her life, but at that point it was in a very distant and uncertain future. Her pregnancy was endangered. Situation was so bad that she could have miscarriage at any moment. Lucky enough baby was growing. But it wasn’t all good news. The bigger baby was, the higher was the risk of miscarriage. She was waiting for the moment where baby will be strong enough to survive outside of her womb. Sad part is that this could have been prevented much earlier in the pregnancy with a surgical procedure. Procedure with some risk of initiating miscarriage… and this could be taken as an abortion. That’s why doctors in Ireland wouldn’t undertake it… I have not idea if that story had an happy ending. Hopefully it did.
@Tomasz Lewoc: Anyone that uses the term “pro death” has no interest in the plight of women with risk pregnancies. They only care that the fetus is kept alive no matter what cost to the parent. Your story will not change that. It’s black and white to these people.
@Tomasz Lewoc: Hi Tomasz, the metropolitan area of Warsaw accounts for 8% of the country, these marchers did not come from the city alone. In percentage terms the turnout was only 0.96% of the metro area or 1.7% of the city pop. or 0.08% of the entire country’s population. In many of the photos online of the march them look like students, I’m a right pain in the butt!!!! lol
Nick: Well done. You have done your homework on stats. I will only say that those numbers surpassed expectations. And yes, majority of them were students as it was easier for them to participate on Monday! Unfortunately I’m still struggling to see how would that undermine the fact of widespread support? I was stunned by the participation level!
Brawo !!!
Seriously ANOTHER pro abortion article. Good journalism gives both sides of the argument. BAD journalism is propaganda for one side. I think I know what side the journal is on.
Aoife, the other side of the argument is lead with lies. Bad journalism would be to print such lies.
Can you give an example of a lie?
It was pointed out on FACTCHECK Here on Journal that it was pro choice side that lied on facts more (think it was ratio of 2:1 in the factchecks in favour of pro life)
@ Aoife: How is this article pro-abortion? The Polish government is trying to change legislation without consulting the people. It is news because of the fact that it has sparked widespread protests, not just in Poland, but also across Europe. It is being reported by many news agencies because it is news.
And, incidentally, these women (and most are women) are pro-choice, not pro-abortion, there is a difference.
@Greg Kelly: Cora says that there is many jurisdictions which allow ‘abortion up to birth,’
Does it happen ?
Greg, the lie that abortion causes cancer. That a 10 week old foetus is the length of a BIC pen. That the majority of women regret abortion. That most abortions (or any) involve dismembering the foetus slowly and painfully.
Still waiting the hear how this is a pro abortion article? Just reporting on what is happening. Ye lot must be very insecure about your positions.
@EvieXVI: Yes EvieXVI, the choice to have an abortion…;))
Yes Nick – that is the choice these women are looking for. Well spotted!
Why does the writer call women ‘women’ and men ‘male supporters’?
In a true democracy, people would get the right to vote on this issue.
@Dan Keane: Women are leading the protest and some men are supporting them. The phrase “men supporters” sounds stupid.
why do you ask?
I ask because it reduces the significance of men’s opinion and right to reduce them to ‘male’.
There are some extreme, crazy feminists who believe men shouldn’t have an opinion on this.
The Polish know what it means when a vulnerable section of humanity, is deemed to be unequal. They have learned something from Auschwitz and Belzec about how precious our human nature is. They understand “equality” verses been “lorded over” by others. The eight amendment grants nothing more or less than equality, yet the liberals in Ireland want to introduce a less than equal category. The people of Poland know what it feels like to be oppressed, to be ruled over by an ideology which counts life cheaply. Yet we have a group here in Ireland, and our own media, embracing an ideology that kills a child, and damages a mother. Groups taking the foreign shilling, the blood money of society eugenicists, to mould our society into accepting, even craving, it’s own death. As western populations collapse from the demographic time bomb, the new death camp campaigners congratulate themselves for how non Catholic they are. But thinking people, both Catholic and non Catholic, understand that human life is precious, that abortion kills a living human being, and that this campaign for death echoes Auschwitz, echoes slavery, echoes Stalin. I believe the Poles should understand this very well, and not follow the Zeitgeist.
@Paddy Scully: So you are comparing women seeking healthcare and control over their own bodies to Nazis?
I think co-opting the horror of Auschwitz is a disgustingly ignorant thing to do but it probably suits the Laundries and dumping of babies in mass graves that the Church oversaw for so long.
Paddy, your first sentence, the premise of your post “deemed to be unequal”. This from a man that opposed marriage equality and that called the Magdalene Laundries “a great act of charity”. You lack any credibility.
Go pray about it now, Paddy.
@ stopit Abortion is to healthcare, as the gas chambers is to delousing.
@Paddy Scully: Using Auschwitz as an analogy to describe anything of that Nazi genocide is an insult to the people who died there.
You should be ashamed of yourself.
“anything other than”
Take a Shril pill. Yep this time around its again about equality. It’s one of the good equality laws we have that protects the life of mother and baby (unless in case where mother’s life is at risk of course)
Last time was equality in marriage which was right
This time equality for life which is right.
Why anybody would want to vote against equality is beyond me again this time.
@ stopit It is a valid and justified comparison. It may indeed insult, but those seeking abortion must understand they are seeking the death of another human being. If that insults their delicacies, then perhaps they are been reacquainted with their consciences. I don’t believe it is possible to insult an avatar anyway. As for the people who died there, I trust they have a much better understanding of the value of all lives, than those seeking the right to kill the innocent.
@Paddy Scully: That’s a pretty disgusting comparison Paddy.
@Paddy Scully: you are misunderstanding me.
Judaism and modern Jews have different views on abortion to you and the catholic church. For example, In Israel, abortion is allowed under a broad number of circumstances and in a survey of American Jewish values 93% of respondees classified themselves as pro-choice.
You are using the suffering of Jews to push your own agenda and this is an agenda they do no agree with you on.
That is deeply ignorant of you.
@Paddy Scully: Paddy, women are seeking the right to choose. Women’s health and lives are at serious risk when it’s subject to church dogma.
Your life will never be put at such risk, you will never have to make that decision, no matter how much you preach.
Why is it that most anti choice commentors here are all men.
@ stopit I gladly agree that I am ignorant of many things, but that many Jew’s support abortion, is not one of them. I’m even aware of the fact that many, who claim to be Catholic, are pro abortion. But that does not change the facts that the people of Poland are well able to learn from what was imposed on them from their neighbours east and west. Secularism has infiltrated Judaism, just as it has gnawed at the heart of Catholicism. But none of these issues can argue away the humanity of the preborn. If I’m “using” the suffering of Jew’s, it’s only because I’m among those who are never willing to forget. The parallels are too stark, the truth too obvious. It takes a superdose of ideology to believe abortion is not murder. Ordinary respect, logic, or humanity, even without faith, should suffice to cut through the ideology and reveal the injustice of abortion.
Dave Doyle lives and the risks to health (mental or physical) are already protected under the current law and those amendments in recent years for Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013.
Greg, equality. Have I the equal right to the use of another person’s body, like a foetus? No. Have I the right to threaten somebody’s life by my very existence? Nope. A foetus does. How is that equal?
@Paddy Scully
Procuring an abortion is where a person is making an informed decision about their bodies that hurts no one, whilst the holocaust was the systematic torture and execution of hundreds of thousands of innocent, walking talking actual human beings..
For comparing the two,you deserve a slap of a fish across your head.Hard :)
Poor pet is deluded :)
Hurts nobody but the baby in the womb as it recoils as its injected.
Poor Rose. Deluded.
Shall I call you Rose or Rosie??
Paddy, please get a national platform to spout your nonsense. Everytime you open your mouth, you convince more people that the 8th must be repealed.
@Tom Burke: Stop listening to pro life groups and read a medical journal Tom. You might learn something.
@Tom Burke: Did I upset your feelings :)
Anyhow,there is no “baby” in the womb :)
Human Zygote->Human Embryo-> Human Foetus :)
You are watching wayyyyyyyyyyy too much of those Gianna Jessen videos :)
“Hurts nobody but the baby in the womb as it recoils as its injected.”
That is fascinating :)
Can you tell me how long does this “pain” goes on for ?
And what trimester you are talking about ?
This is the stopping of all abortions including if the mother needs life saving intervention she will have to carry the baby till birth or her own death. If she is raped she will have to give birth, has anyone asked if her husband will raise this child? 5 years for an abortion which could be a miscarriage! Talk about going back to the Stone Age.
@Tom Burke: Talking down to women again Tom. Looks like it’s all you’re good at.
No wonder you’re against the right of women to choose what is right for their bodies and their health.
@Paddy Scully:
I am sick of people like you who focus so much on the life that is being taken and are unable to see into their future. The future of the mother, father and the child itself. In those extreme cases that are being discussed for abortion when you look into the future you can see broken lives. In a lot of cases you could hardly call it a life; it is barely an existence for parents and for children. I am yet to see a pro-lifer who gives interviews while working in a help centre for rape victims. I am yet to see a pro-lifer preaching from a house of single mother who has to care for her child 24/7. I am yet to see a pro-lifer who says they will adopt a baby from a child that was raped by a paedophile. Please talk to me about your pro-life campaign while showing me detailed plans of support for parents with children needing full time care, adoption laws, and special care for rape victims, plans for mental health healthcare etc. Do not just say it is a life inside of you that you have to keep and then go off on a two-week holiday with your healthy family thinking that you are great. If you want someone to be pro-choice it has to come with options. You can’t just leave women with their own problems and hope for the best. Give me some substance behind your statements or just stay quiet!
@Rosie Is Fabulous :): Procuring an abortion, as you put it, is not just about a person making a decision about their body, much more than that, it’s a person making a decision to have the life growing inside of them terminated, killed, extinguished, aborted……………….Their body will go on and continue to live, while the other gets dismembered…… thumb me down all you want, but an intelligent person cannot deny what I’ve just said…
@ Kasia Jacques Well Kasia, I’m glad to see you acknowledge that it is a life that is been taken. Not knowing the future however, seems like a weak justification for taking the life. You then claim the debate is about the extreme cases, well if that were so, English and American figures, are lying; because about 2% of all abortions are what the pro choice people call hard cases. This is just psychological manipulation for the right to kill on demand. If you have not seen pro lifers who work with rape victims, or are single mothers, then you live a very sheltered life. I know several myself. Pro lifers are at the vanguard of adoption, both as adopters and promotion of adoption services. I agree services must continue to be improved. You mention broken persons, this journal carried a story recently, told from the perspective of a young man taking his then partner for her abortion. At the end, the man moves on, and we are left with the woman, alone and devastated. I know several women who have been broken by their experience of abortion. Abortion is a travesty of justice, both for the child, and it’s mother. But fortunately these women have help available to then, and guess what, it comes from pro life people.
@Paddy Scully:
No I did not acknowledge anything. It was basically me repeating your biggest concern, you biggest argument that brings nothing into discussion as far as I am concerned. And I am concerned… About women who have to listen to people the likes of you but then never hear from you when they most need it. It is convenient that you only know people that were devastated by abortion. Well done. But to truly understand the issue you should also know women who had to make that choice which was hard and then got no support. Or women who carried to term only to see their child dead and having to bury them. Women who got raped and did not want their attacker’s child. And why o why your other biggest argument is that this law will be used and abused. How can be a part of discussion? How can you know that, how can you be sure? And for that reason you refuse it for women in hardship, because someone else will take advantage? So yet again those who take advantage stay on top because one way or another they will do what they want and the rest will suffer. And do not say that polish people should know better. You have no idea what we went through and have no right to compare this debate to Nazis and camps. Cheap move to prove your weak arguments.
@Nick Drake: Is there something important in that load of waffle that you just wrote :)
Also,an “intelligent” person would have known that there is no ‘dismembered’ in the majority of abortions :)
Two pills & adios embryo :)
Poor pet :)
@Rosie Is Fabulous :): Rosie if you could reason with “pro lifers” there wouldn’t be “pro lifers”. I have asked thousands of times if the average abortion was so bad then why do they resort to showing the very rare late term or in some cases still born fetuses instead?? They know well there is no dismembered but it doesn’t fit their agenda.
@Rob Cahill: We’ll just have to keep throwing pesky facts out there not for their benefit, but for others that ‘might’ believe their trash..
Paddy: Abortion is nothing good. I think that it should disappear from our world. I agree with that. Unfortunately our world is not perfect and sometimes bad deeds have to take place to avoid greater evil. I cannot see any justification for law sacrificing mother to save the unborn child. This should be a choice that is left to her! Believe me. Many women who are now fighting for liberalisation of abortion laws in Ireland will sacrifice themselves, if faced with that choice. But sometimes situation may be way more complicated. What if she has more children to live for. And how about girl repeatedly raped by her father and brother. Can you even imagine this? Would you volunteer to tell her that she is pregnant with one of them and she will have to carry this baby for 9mths? There are things in this world that are seriously wrong. You brought up the subject of concentration camps. I just hope that you have no idea what was happening there to pregnant women. I will give you word of advise. If you want to remain in your black and white bubble, don’t try to find out.
@ Tomasz Lewoc Tomasz for many years now the law, and practice, in Ireland, has protected the life of the mother, even at the cost of loosing the child when unavoidable. That is good practice, and is allowed in conjunction with our eight amendment. I have been to Auschwitz, where the birds don’t sing, so I am well acquainted with what happened there. So the bubble you imagine I occupy, is just in your imagination. The numbers killed by abortion every year, far surpass those killed in Auschwitz. The numbers saved by our eight amendment exceed 100,000. But still the pro choicers cry out for their adapted version of “the final solution”.
Paddy: You know it very well that situations are not always 100% clear. Doctors will still refer women to be treated in UK just in case. Why don’t you address the issue of rape? Can you please enlighten me on the relation to “the final solution”? I really want to have a conversation but those comparisons with Nazis are only ridiculing the subject.
@Tomasz Lewoc: Don’t waste your time Tomasz, Paddy and his kind don’t listen they just preach. Thankfully they are a dying breed and there are not too many left.
You’re right Rob. He called all gay people paedophiles, he thinks false imprisonment of women and the kidnap and sale of their kids is a great act of charity and considers the rape of children “unfortunate but not the churches fault”. He’s vile
@ Rob Cahill I suppose it true, respect for others, even over ones own interests, is a dying breed. Placing the self above all others is so now. Caring for the most vulnerable is so passe, ugh!
@Paddy Scully: Respect for others??? Remind us again how you voted when it came to equal rights in Marriage for everyone?? Bloody hypocrite.
@Paddy Scully: Great news!
Why is there another article on this? There was ine yesterday afternoon. Agenda ,?
Suppose the Jane Donnelly bit is new. The modern day Halawa flying over to interfere with laws in another country. I say that in gest of course. But the Catholic Church in control here is a ridiculous statement. Much more in Poland. Non catholic doesn’t mean you want abortion clinics in our town centres.
Lavbeer – so an Argentian living in Rome should keep out of Irish issues then by your exacting standards, great, I could not agree more.
Yes. As he is doing. Your peddling of such tripe will turn prople against your views in any vote on the subject.
Lavbeer – lets see and if you think Rome keeps out of Irish issues you are not following the issue.
Or I am not paranoid. Let the citizens convention thing happened. Hopefully 2 referenda or one with 3 options.
Ah Paul.
Mr Angry is out again today.
Got any more unsubstantiated accusations to make?
Tom – ah there you are chief defender of clerical child rape and controller of women. So how is your hero Cardinal Pell today? I mean like him you believe abortion to be worse than the child rape by catholic clergy.
How did the Met Police respond to your complaint if all these Irish women killing their babies in London?
Go and look at Tom’s comments on the breast feeding article. He loves babies or just hates women. You decide.
Deborah – breastfeeding is obviously not one of his kinks, but he does seem to have many with bums and butts mentioned yesterday.
His dislike of women, which is clear, is probably due to his obvious inadequacies.
Not commenting on the issue itself but the author says despite this, which is referring to a petition of almost half a million people. Seems odd to write off the views of that many people so quickly.
They do have a population of almost 40 million though. Interesting comment considering FG having similar numbers not paying IW.
Mandatory viewing
I don’t think you understand what “mandatory” means.
@Tom Burke: “Mandatory viewing” = Wacky backy is powerful :)
Poor pet said that she “ingested saline for 18 hours,”and that “God” healed her from it :)
She survived an abortion.
I think it’s reasonable to afford her a say.
@Tom Burke: ‘She says that she “survived” an abortion’ -but the poor pet has no scars from supposedly being burned over her entire body. Her eye sight, skin, hair and hair follicles appear normal.Nothing from 18 hours of her supposedly ingesting saline for 18 hours :)
How much does she make from charging the adoption agencies ,churches & crisis pregnancy centres for sharing her ‘story.’ You see,Tommy, her ‘story’ is used to market adoption as a superior choice to their clients. These agencies charge a whopping $15,000-$50,000, nowhere near actual costs, for a newborn. For them it’s a wise financial investment to pay this Jessen wan to speak :)
Here you go Tommy :) http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2013/06/26/adoptiondoc_custom-cc483c153054f8898bbfae347085b5cde6fc0d0a-s600-c85.jpg
Let us know how you got on :)
Poor pet :)
More deflection and assumption.
How much does she make from xyz?
Actually probably nothing.
You see, she isn’t Jennifer Aniston.
She couldn’t charge $40k appearance money. They might offer her $20 gasoline money but my guess is she wouldn’t take it.
Deflection deflection
Or are you just throwing it out there because you have nothing better to add?
Here is “lovely” Gianna ,enjoy :)
P.S. Doesn’t she look magnificent after she being burnt for 18 hours :)
Ah Rose.
Why do you deny her a say?
She has an incredible story to tell.
So much so that Hollywood made a movie about her story- ‘October Baby’
Has anybody ever thought your poison filled mundane life was interesting enough to make a movie of?
No- didn’t think so.
@Tom Burke: You are sounding very like Cora :)
You are right about one thing though, her story is ‘incredible’ :)
Poor pet :)
The Catholic Church don’t run Ireland.
The church is an entity which doesn’t have a vote.
Now if I go into the ballot box and vote a particular way because I’m influenced by nobody, everybody, the Catholic Church, atheist Ireland or the Donald Trump appreciation society, that is my constitutional right.
If any of you are aware of the Catholic Church circumventing democracy, please notify the authorities.
@Tom Burke: So your constitutional right, gives you the right to talk down to women, force your views on others that have the constitutional right to differ with you. You don’t have a womb, but you know what’s best for those that do.
You’re a supporter of church dogma Tom. Face up to that fact and stop trying to hide behind your “constitutional right”.
Dave
Do you know what a view is?
How can I force my view on anybody else? I might have a view that we should all stand on our head for 1/2 hour every Tuesday morning. So what?
It’s a view.
I would like to think democratically we are all entitled to views.
Hey you so called pro choicers, you can post all you like u health/life of the mother, right to choose, womens’ bodies and blah blah blah, but the truth is you want abortion as a contraceptive, abortion on demand and that is the truth! You had it on your posters in that vile march last week and we all know that is your one and only aim!! Well after seeing your disgusting posters at that event I can tell you, you scored a massive own goal. I personally know many people who were pro choice because of your (rubbish) arguments about the life/health of women etc but who have now realised what you are actually wanting….Abortion on Demand!! You lost many supporters with that stunt :-)
@Mary Devereux Lawlor:
“Abortion as a contraceptive” = Wrong :)
Contraceptives prevents pregnancies
Abortion ends them :)
Poor pet :)
“you lost many supporters” No, we didn’t. The demand for the 8th to be repealed is growing like never before in the history of this state.
That gave me a laugh. Thanks for your hilarious rant.
@Mary Devereux Lawlor: We are called pro choicers because we want choice. Understand?
Whatever we want, we can’t have abortion as a contraceptive, because contraception prevents pregnancy, and abortion isn’t carried out on people who are not pregant. So that can’t work.
I do love the term ‘abortion on demand.’ I know that it really gets up the nose of people like you, but I’m never sure how it works though. Can I demand that a doctor perform a medical procedure? Can I demand drugs from a clinic? The medics that I know respond better to requests and consultatotion, so, to date, I’ve always had to ask for their help, diagnosis, or opinion. But I might try demanding from now.
Have to agree with Sean on this one, you’re the demand for the 8th to be repealed is growing, along with your worrying detachment from reality. Maybe you should demand some psychiatric help?
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