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Brian Purcell Screengrab/Oireachtas TV

Brian Purcell appears before the Justice Committee, but refuses to answer questions about Callinan

Members of the committee slammed his lack of cooperation as “farcical”.

DESPITE THEIR BEST efforts, members of the justice committee are none the wiser as to what Brian Purcell told former Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan the night before he stepped down.

The Secreary General of the Department of Justice was repeatedly questioned by the committee about the issue today, but refused to elaborate on what happened.

Much speculation has surrounded the night in question, 24 March, and why Taoiseach Enda Kenny sent Purcell to Callinan’s house.

“I hope members will understand that I am somewhat constrained in what I can deal with. I fully appreciate these matters are of legitimate interest to members.

“The difficulty is that, although it would be much easier in many ways to come in here today and fully answer your questions, I must respect that the Fennelly Commission has to undertake the work it has been charged with by the Government and these Houses,” Purcell stated.

Committee chair David Stanton told Purcell that it was “perfectly within [the committee's] remit” to raise the issue of Callinan’s resignation and asked him to answer questions about it “very clearly and in plain English”.

Purcell said he was “deeply concerned” that if he discussed Callinan’s resignation it could “undermine” the work of the Fennelly Commission, adding that he was being placed in a “rather unusual position”.

“I simply won’t be able to answer questions in relation to that matter … [while] what could be seen to be a parallel inquiry is proceeding.”

Earlier today Taoiseach Enda Kenny claimed he sent Purcell to the former Commissioner as he “had a right to be appraised” of his “concerns and anxieties”.

‘It’s a farce’

The meeting became quite heated at times, with a number of the committee’s members venting their frustration with Purcell’s lack of cooperation.

Some took exception with Purcell reading from a script, accusing him of doing so in a bid to avoid answering their questions.

Independent TD Finian McGrath said it was “unacceptable that a senior public servant would come in here … and talk down the clock … it’s a farce”.

The committee’s chair, Fine Gael’s David Stanton, said he would ask McGrath to leave if he kept interrupting.

At this point, Sinn Féin’s Padráig MacLochlainn repeated: “This is farcical.”

Stanton said he didn’t understand why Purcell couldn’t cooperate fully, saying: ”The truth cannot change”.

We are looking for the truth and we are looking for facts on what happened on the night the Commissioner decided to retire.

After much probing, Purcell finally admitted:

Of course it’s unusual for such a meeting to take place in the home of the Commissioner.

McGrath said he was “very disappointed” by Purcell’s comments, adding he “doesn’t accept” his stance of “hiding behind legislation to answer a few simple questions.”

“Despite what anybody might think, I tried my best [to answer your questions],” Purcell insisted.

‘Across a corridor’

McGrath questioned why it took two weeks for a letter about the recording of phone calls in Garda stations to get from Purcell’s desk to that of the former justice minister Alan Shatter.

He asked Purcell the distance between his office and Shatter’s.

The secretary general said they were “on same floor of the same building … across a corridor”.

“People have genuine concen that letters can be hanging around offices for two weeks without ministers seeing them,” McGrath remarked.

Purcell said he could see how this and Callinan’s retirement were “of interest” to the public, but said he could not elaborate.

The Guerin Report

Purcell said that the recommendations of the Guerin Report, which set up to examine allegations that An Garda Síochána mishandled a series of cases involving abduction, assault and murder, were “clearly” critical.

When asked about how the department handled concerns raised by Sergeant Maurice McCabe, he noted that Shatter acted on the advice the Commissioner, “the person against whom the complaint was made”.

He added that the relationship between the justice minister and the Garda Commissioner is based on a “trust element”.

It has undoubtedly been the practice of the Department and successive ministers to place considerable reliance on what they are told by the Garda Commissioner of the day.

Shatter resigned earlier this month as a result of the report. Purcell admitted that the department was “not fit for purpose” in terms of dealing with Garda whistleblowers.

We do not micromanage the gardaí, the Commissioner has responsibility in law for operation of the gardaí.

Maybe we would have looked at it differently [now]. Every one one of us can be wise with the benefit of hindsight.

Purcell noted that a number of reforms had been committed to by justice minister Frances Fitzgerald, including the establishment of an independent garda authority by the end of the year, a strengthening of the remit and powers of GSOC and upcoming legislation to protect whistleblowers.

He said that the programme of reform set to be implemented  was “highly challenging” but would ensure that similar controversies regarding complaints would not arise in the future.

Lack of Confidence

Fianna Fáil’s justice spokesperson said Niall Collins asked Purcell if he felt he could do his job while Fitzgerald refused to express full confidence in him.

Purcell said it was “perfectly understandable that a new minister coming in to her job is not going to rush out on her first day … and say ‘yes’ [to that question].”

He admitted that it was “not a comfortable position for me to be in”, but added: “I can understand perfectly why she’s taken that approach.”

Related: ‘I don’t have the authority to sack anybody’: Taoiseach asked what Purcell told Callinan

Read: Justice Committee to Secretary General: We will ask you about Guerin Report

Related: Frances Fitzgerald still can’t say if she has confidence in her most senior civil servant

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49 Comments
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    Mute James Franco
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    May 28th 2014, 7:49 PM

    Typical overpaid smug pen pushing civil servant whose not in the least bit civil

    199
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    Mute Michael G O'Reilly
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    May 28th 2014, 9:22 PM

    Can no one in Ireland give an honest answer to any court or inquiry any more?!?!?

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    Mute Andrew Halpin
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    May 28th 2014, 10:28 PM

    That seems to be the way it works. Feather each other’s nest until the plebs catch on and then refuse to answer questions on the basis of a future investigation because what you say could be used as evidence by that future investigation.?? There’s the truth of it. This country is corrupt, it works from the top down and there’s no telling how far it goes or where it ends, if at all.

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    Mute Jill Jones
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    May 28th 2014, 10:40 PM

    Where’s Enda’s accountability when we need it.

    22
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    Mute Kerry Blake
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    May 28th 2014, 11:20 PM

    Jill Enda’s accountability has gone missing along with his transparency…..

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    Mute Sloop John G
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    May 29th 2014, 1:10 AM

    Spot on Andrew. I’ve been saying this for years, this country is rotten to the core. Maybe Purcell should have turned whistle blower himself and opened up the whole sordid can of worms that passes for a Justice system in this country. Now wouldn’t that make a refreshing change !!!

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    Mute finbarr ocormac
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    May 28th 2014, 7:53 PM

    Enda Kenny will not answer questions in the Dail over this….It goes to show that in any other Industry Purcell would have been gone weeks ago..But he probably has some nice juicey information on someone in Gov so he is going nowhere

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    Mute Colette Mullins
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    May 28th 2014, 7:51 PM

    Yet another untouchable civil servant laughing at the system built to protect them

    146
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    Mute Paul Mc
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    May 28th 2014, 9:17 PM

    A bit of arse covering for Enda seems to be the logical conclusion to this farce by the not so civil servant.

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    Mute Were Jammin
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    May 28th 2014, 8:14 PM

    A public servant, especially one so high in rank, refusing to answer questions asked by public representatives in a committee is EXTREMELY serious. This should not go away.

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    Mute TractorPat
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    May 28th 2014, 8:23 PM

    When has a high ranking public servant ever told the truth, cooperated or acted in the best interest of the country. “Choo choo all aboard the gravy chain”

    70
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    Mute AlanHarte
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    May 28th 2014, 8:46 PM

    He’s perfectly entitled not to answer in law. There is no limits to what questions the committee can ask. There is limits on which can/ should be answered.

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    Mute ListenToWoody
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    May 28th 2014, 10:05 PM

    He should not answer to showboating politicians..all seem to forget that we had a referendum not two years ago in which the people were asked if they wanted to give dail committees the power of investigation., and to make judgements on people..the people answered overwhelmingly “absolutely not” …and for good reason..yet this kangaroo court, and the PAC, is carrying on regardless,as if they are some sort of moral compass, crusading for right….and making de facto judgements on peoples character…. political point scoring in its most crude and disingenuous form..all you that think they are great better hope you are never summoned before a hearing..where they will then make judgement on you..I suspect you would all be singing a different song then…………down with this sort of thing..careful now.

    27
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    Mute Andrew Halpin
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    May 28th 2014, 11:28 PM

    @listentowoody @alanharte. We cannot use the fifth amendment because in Irish law refusing to answer questions is interpreted as a sign of guilt. He wasn’t been questioned in law. That referendum was in 2011 and it would have undermined the individuals right to a fair hearing in any dealings with any government department. An individual would have had no recourse but to accept their decision as final. Therefore a state body could be wrong but also right.
    As someone who is familiar with kangaroo courts in Ireland where you are judged on hearsay evidence; Mr Purcell did point out that all of the allegations in Sergeant McCabe’s dossiers were not facts and needed to be investigated; I fully appreciate how Mr Purcell might feel were he in that position. However he’s not nor was he put in that position, as the PAC have no powers to convict or sentence him for any wrong doing.
    It may be that those members are showboating to protect their seats or parties interests. However we as a people need to be informed because they represent our interest directly and indirectly. If they are showboating it will be recalled come election time.

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    Mute ListenToWoody
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    May 29th 2014, 12:10 AM

    Quite the opposite Andrew..in Irish Law it is your right to refuse to answer and no inference be taken from the refusal (except in certain anti terrorist/gang legislation)..the caution that is the cornerstone of the protection of citizen begins “you are not obliged to say anything unless you wish to do so”. I am aware that PAC and other dail committees have no power to convict or sentence for wrongdoing, I never said that they did..they do however , as I said, make “de facto” judgements on peoples character and are continuously political point scoring. I wonder would any of the Sinn Fein committee members be as vocal if the Justice committee was inquiring into the murders of Timmy Parry age 12, Jonathan Ball age 4 , Jean McConville, Robert McCartney..the list goes on..to listen to Sinn Fein members in particular tut-tutting from the moral high ground is stomach churning.

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    Mute Artisan Bee
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    May 29th 2014, 2:05 AM

    @ ListenToWoody

    “I am aware that PAC and other dail committees have no power to convict or sentence for wrongdoing, I never said that they did..”

    Explain this so:

    “yet this kangaroo court, and the PAC,”

    Why say ‘kangaroo court’ if you believe “that PAC and other dail committees have no power to convict or sentence for wrongdoing”? Are you implying that the’Justice Committee’ has no authority to carry out its duty? Do you support subverting democratic processes?

    This other tripe from you can only be described as PATHETIC:

    “I wonder would any of the Sinn Fein committee members be as vocal if the Justice committee was inquiring into the murders of Timmy Parry age 12, Jonathan Ball age 4 , Jean McConville, Robert McCartney..the list goes on..to listen to Sinn Fein members in particular tut-tutting from the moral high ground is stomach churning.”

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    Mute ListenToWoody
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    May 29th 2014, 1:32 PM

    Kangaroo Court -”a mock court in which the principles of law and justice are disregarded or perverted.The term may also apply to a court held by a legitimate judicial authority who intentionally disregards the court’s legal or ethical obligations. A kangaroo court is often held by a group or a community to give the appearance of a fair and just trial, even though the verdict has in reality already been decided before the trial has begun”.
    Why are you Shinners so sensitive? Still the instinct to bully opposing views, when political ammunition runs low, inevitably the rusty artillery of abuse is always wheeled into action.
    Calm down laddie…

    2
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    Mute Artisan Bee
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    May 29th 2014, 2:19 PM

    @ Listentowoody

    “Why are you Shinners so sensitive?”

    Please don’t mistake my abhorrence to fascism with being “sensitive”.

    I ask: Why are you Blueshirts so pathetic?

    “Still the instinct to bully opposing views, when political ammunition runs low, inevitably the rusty artillery of abuse is always wheeled into action.
Calm down laddie…”

    Classic Freudian projection. Let me remind you what you said:

    “I wonder would any of the Sinn Fein committee members be as vocal if the Justice committee was inquiring into the murders of Timmy Parry age 12, Jonathan Ball age 4 , Jean McConville, Robert McCartney..the list goes on..to listen to Sinn Fein members in particular tut-tutting from the moral high ground is stomach churning.”

    1
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    Mute ListenToWoody
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    May 29th 2014, 2:55 PM

    Wow your copy and past buttons must be worn out…

    Here is some worthwhile copy and pasting—
    ” I don’t want to talk to you no more, you empty-headed animal food trough wiper! I fart in your general direction! Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries! You tiny-brained wiper of other people’s bottoms! ” – Perhaps you huge intellect recognizes it ? No, oh never mind.
    Good day to you sir….and please don’t call me anymore.

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    Mute Dermot Purcell
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    May 29th 2014, 3:46 PM

    Tractor im afraid ita lot worse than people not cooperating with this inquiry.Corruption and criminal activity has reached every arm of the state.this guy purcell has just given the two fingers to the decent people in this country.for people shouting for a revolution can hold this up and say purcell kearns flannery fitzpatrick ahearn cowen shatter callinan is this the form of democracy you want.no accountability.

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    Mute Artisan Bee
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    May 29th 2014, 4:16 PM

    @ ListenToWoody

    “Wow your copy and past buttons must be worn out…”

    Extracting QUOTES from statements you made was an easy way for me to reinforce my point of view.

    Well – you certainly lost the argument with this tripe:

    “Here is some worthwhile copy and pasting—
    ” I don’t want to talk to you no more, you empty-headed animal food trough wiper! I fart in your general direction! Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries! You tiny-brained wiper of other people’s bottoms! ” – Perhaps you huge intellect recognizes it ? No, oh never mind.
    Good day to you sir….and please don’t call me anymore.”

    1
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    Mute ListenToWoody
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    May 29th 2014, 5:51 PM

    Lol….Thought it would go straight over your head…Monty Python is always worthwhile…..you should look it up….educate yourself….

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    Mute Lm group
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    May 28th 2014, 8:03 PM

    Sack the tosser, do what your told or go

    90
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    Mute Martin Smith
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    May 28th 2014, 8:42 PM

    of course he will not answer and he knows he will be protected by enda as only he and callinan know what kennys message was……..

    35
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    Mute johngahan
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    May 28th 2014, 7:45 PM

    I can’t wait for the trials in the next decade of people who have been accused in their village of not being a good Republican. Or accused of witchcraft because they earn too much.

    31
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    Mute Alan Reardon
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    May 28th 2014, 9:14 PM

    This man believes that he is accountable to no one and displayed that disgracefully today, it’s a pity he could not have been told answer the question or collect your P45. In any other job he would be dismissed forthwith.

    25
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    Mute Mike McAllen
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    May 28th 2014, 11:41 PM

    Bit of a Catch 22 in that case, given that if he DID answer those questions he’d have been sacked by the Government.

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    Mute scartboy
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    May 29th 2014, 1:19 AM

    Need to also ask is he competent and has he got credibility within gov and staff. If not credible why should he stay in role?

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    Mute joan donnellan
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    May 28th 2014, 8:12 PM

    Jaysus JG are you playing with a full deck there???

    23
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    Mute scartboy
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    May 28th 2014, 9:35 PM

    Over life of gov why has no dept sec been fired. Letters go missing for weeks and they survive. Finance was only dept that hired outside the inner circle and is now only dept that appears to have made progress. We blame ministers for crap in health, justice etc but really it’s the dept heads that should also walk as they allow crap service to taxpayer continue. If current gov has made one big error it’s not sacking a few inefficient depts secretary and bring in some private sector heads that know what real world is like to start fixing and removing bad waste practise. We spens enough tax payers money to have a decent health service but waste still exists.. How many pen pushers are in hse that add zero value?

    22
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    Mute John R
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    May 28th 2014, 10:24 PM

    Yes Scarrboy maybe they should hire from the ranks of the private sector bankers, property magnates and other geniuses who ran out country into the ground. Numerous SG posts have been openly and publicly advertised and no private sector person has been appointed except for Finance and, guess what, he was an ex-civil servant as well! Why is this so. Simple. The jobs do not pay enough money or contain enough perks to attract people from outside the civil and public service considering the workload and responsibilities attached. Grow up!

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    Mute scartboy
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    May 29th 2014, 12:15 AM

    Not the most mature, logical or intelligent response I have seen. Bankers are part of private sector but not all. There are other examples ie kerry group so I would recommend you take a wholistic view rather than narrow one.. Are you hse mgt

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    Mute James Kelly
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    May 28th 2014, 9:45 PM

    If the committee chairperson cannot compel him to answer then why cite him in the first place ?
    What is the point when you know he will refuse to answer as it just brings the whole process of government into disrepute?
    Could this government employee not have been issued with an advance copy of the questions and asked to confirm which questions he was unwilling or unable to answer thereby saving time, money resources and above all an embarrassing farce as clearly described by some members of the committee.
    This should not go away as the questions asked are of legitimate public concern and if this government employee won’t answer then he should be disciplined for gross misconduct in his public office.
    Who told him he should not answer to an Oriochteas committee properly constituted ?

    20
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    Mute Andrew Halpin
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    May 28th 2014, 10:39 PM

    @james once he made his opening statement, he then proceeded to answer questions from a prepared script. That was objected to by several members of the PAC.

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    Mute Joseph O'Regan
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    May 28th 2014, 9:36 PM

    What a disrespectful b@stard.

    20
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    Mute AlanHarte
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    May 28th 2014, 8:31 PM

    In fairness why is this guy getting such a hard time? Looks like he is just being thrown to the lions.

    17
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    Mute Arch Stanton
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    May 28th 2014, 9:30 PM

    Justice Committee by name but alas not by nature

    16
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    Mute kopper96
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    May 28th 2014, 9:32 PM

    Reminds me of Sir Humphrey Appleby………talk for hours but saying nothing!!!!

    16
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    Mute Michael Flynn
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    May 28th 2014, 9:13 PM

    Our Civil Servants are similar to priests in the Confessional .

    14
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    Mute David Clarke
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    May 28th 2014, 8:36 PM

    Johngahan get over it fg/Tories got their ars. Slaped last week time to move on but dont worry none of ur boys and girls will ever be held to account for the rape and destruction of the country to please ur master in eu ps tell Denis I was asking for him the next time yous are selling off something else for pennies

    13
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    Mute Flash gordon
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    May 28th 2014, 9:12 PM

    What are you smoking ?!

    4
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    Mute Daire Hickey
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    May 28th 2014, 11:19 PM

    He is a civil servant. IF he doesn’t co-operate he should be sacked.

    10
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    Mute Mike McAllen
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    May 28th 2014, 11:39 PM

    Cooperate with what? Questions from grandstanding politicians who know very well that he’s legally constrained from answering them? As head of a Government Department his ultimate responsibility is to the Government, not the Oireachtas. It’s the Government – or, more specifically, Enda – who put him in this position, and it’s Enda who should be held to account by the Oireachtas.

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    Mute seamus mcdermott
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    May 29th 2014, 12:24 AM

    Yeah. Government shouldn’t be required to be accountable to the people. What do you think we’re running here, a democracy?

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    Mute Mike McAllen
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    May 29th 2014, 12:40 AM

    Of course the Government should be accountable to the people. My point is that the Government has told Purcell not to discuss this particular issue with the Committee, so it’s the Government you should be going after – and, of course, that’s who the Committee is really after. Purcell is just being used as a pawn in their game.

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    Mute gerbreen
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    May 28th 2014, 9:48 PM

    Does Finian know where his terrorist mates from Columbia are now? He jas as much credibility as Purcell.

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    Mute Sam Stears
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    May 29th 2014, 2:47 AM

    This guy Purcell seems to be a bit of a Humphrey out of the television ” Yes Minister”. He is arrogant in the extreme, he should be forced to answer fully for his actions, and stop with the bull shit.

    3
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    Mute Patlyndo
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    May 29th 2014, 9:23 AM

    No Alan he is not being thrown to the Lions, they were well fed with Callinan, Shatter and the confidential recipient.

    He is the person who is the key to this whole sordid affair, he is in charge of the day running of the Department of Justice.

    He is the person who did not deal with the Whistleblowers allegations.

    He has apoligised for his departments failings – which was led by him.

    2
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    Mute Patlyndo
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    May 29th 2014, 9:16 AM

    And the new Ministers is silent.

    If he does not go, then she will – this could be the final nail for this entire Government.

    2
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