Support from readers like you keeps The Journal open.
You are visiting us because we have something you value. Independent, unbiased news that tells the truth. Advertising revenue goes some way to support our mission, but this year it has not been enough.
If you've seen value in our reporting, please contribute what you can, so we can continue to produce accurate and meaningful journalism. For everyone who needs it.
SIPTU MEMBERS IN Dublin Bus and Irish Rail are to ballot for industrial action.
A meeting of SIPTU representatives from Dublin Bus, Irish Rail and Bus Eireann was held in Liberty Hall today to discuss the ongoing strike in Bus Eireann.
SIPTU Sector Organiser Willie Noone said, “The meeting also gave a mandate for a ballot for industrial action of union members in Dublin Bus and Irish Rail in sympathy with and in support of their colleagues in Bus Eireann.
They believe that they are next in the firing line if management in Bus Eireann is allowed to force through cuts to wages and changes to conditions of employment of their staff.
A protest is also planned in support of the Bus Eireann workers. It will take place on Wednesday at Leinster House when a meeting of the Oireachtas transport committee is on.
Noone said, “The representatives also agreed that the protest should be supported as it is a means of highlighting the failure of the Minister to take responsibility for the dysfunctional state of the public transport service.
We are encouraging members of the public and of the union, including those who work in the public transport sector and are available, to attend the protest.
Advertisement
‘Survival plan’
Meanwhile, Bus Eireann says it will not be able to fund a voluntary redundancy scheme and will have to consider other measures to prevent the business becoming insolvent if it does not make savings.
A survival plan was presented to the board today which included cost efficiencies to eliminate what it called “grossly inefficient work practices”.
The board said it could not sign off on accounts for 2016, or pass a budget for 2017 in the absence of agreement with staff.
In a statement this evening, the board requested all employees to urgently engage with management through their representatives to agree a survival plan to prevent insolvency and provide a viable future for Bus Éireann.
General Secretary of the NBRU Dermot O’Leary described the statement as “nothing short of bizarre and extraordinary”.
The notion that alternatives to work practice changes and a voluntary severance programme would be entertained, would appear to indicate that the company may go down the road of compulsory redundancies which, if pursued would be unprecedented in the semi-state sector.
“Compulsorily laying off staff will open a completely different and potentially uncontrollable dimension to this dispute, and will present severe difficulties in trying to maintain the already fragile industrial peace across other companies within the CIE Group.”
Readers like you are keeping these stories free for everyone...
A mix of advertising and supporting contributions helps keep paywalls away from valuable information like this article.
Over 5,000 readers like you have already stepped up and support us with a monthly payment or a once-off donation.
Well, we have a great example in the Norwegian system, which is more lenient and rehabilitative than ours, but then their recidivism rate is dramatically lower than ours.
So if we want to cut the number of crimes and the number of victims, then we know how to do it by learning from them. If we want to continue with a punishing but not rehabilitative approach that leads to more crime and more victims, then we just keep on as we are going or get even more severe, like the US – who to me do not seem to be sorting out their violent society by locking up a huge proportion of their population in harsh conditions – they have an extremely high recidivism rate.
They might have a low amount of prisoners but they have LEGAL dog brothels so their government should be in those prisons along with the other inmates!
Prison life is a reflection (imo) on what happens outside..I wonder does Norway have the drug problems we do, does Norway have the sense of entitlement we do, does Norway have the unemployment rates in certain areas that we do. All these problems on the outside have a huge bearing on rehabilitation on the inside..
Totally agree. This article suggests that this prison system applied in any country try would create universal utopia. However, the standard of living in Norway is high, it is a wealthy country with excellent education.
Norway have as much if not more people with drugs problem than Ireland. One Norwegian friend of mine living in Norway is an ex heroin addict, and he told me stories of how the Norwegian government had turned their backs to drug addicts, he was lucky to have a caring family. He is now a proud father of 3 with a very good job and clean for over 15 years, I have seen a lot of Junkies on the streets of Oslo and a few homeless as well, and they have all the oil and all the money they could ask for, their road conditions are the worst in Europe too, Sweden and Finland have the same weather and far better roads. Norway is not perfect, as the 2000 registered Norwegians living in Ireland vs the 700 registered Irish living in Norway.
We need to be more patriotic and believe more in our country and stop putting ourselves down by comparing the good from other countries, see the big pictures
You’re right shane, but I’m just answering your questions, I’m not saying that they are full of shite, you said that prison life is a reflexion of what happens outside, then you asked if Norway has the same drug problems as we do, I answered you question, yes, they do.
You asked if Norway have the sense of entitlement we do. They have it, and more than us, both domestically and with foreign policy, Norwegians think that the rest of the world is crumbling and that Norway is that paradise where you get to live in peace with all their oil money used wisely, they see the rest of Europe as lesser people. Is like an European version of an Southern American Patriot.
Unemployment there is less than 4%, but we had similar numbers back in the celtic years.
A Norwegian worker would have the same disposable income than an Irish worker
Fair enough Juan but it’s pointless spending money on rehab if you don’t have follow up in the community . The services here are overstreched and therefore the chance of staying clean and not reoffending is slim ,the systems have to be in place to make this work if there not in place then it’s a waste. We don’t have them in place.
Perhaps yes Norwegians do expect to be treated with respect by the state, even when they are offenders. Irish people (perhaps it is our colonial past) do seem to accept punishing state systems (our recent history of abuse of children and vulnerable adults speaks volumes in this respect).
I do feel that there is a view in Irish society that human nature is somehow different here – we are worse people than other people – that’s sad. The evidence for the effectiveness of the Norwegian system has nothing to do with the nature of Norwegian offenders – it is clear from looking at different criminal justice systems what works with human beings – but perhaps countries that have more of a notion of human rights and respect for citizens do tend more to look to logical and humane solutions to their problems than to more a more punishing and vengeful approach.
Wanting authoritarian and punishing state systems seems to be within the Irish psyche. However, seeking a criminal justice system more like the US does not seem to me to be the way to go – citizens do not have human rights there and there system simply does not work. Time to do something that works perhaps?
We were on Holidays in south England where Young Offenders run a cafe in Verne Fort , these were young men who were studying their NVQs (Fectac 3) qualifications . The Young man who served us was finishing up a course in pastry chefing. he was hoping to get work when he finished his sentence. It was the best cheesecake I had in ages. He had some hope of a better future.
There is also an amazing view of Portland and Weymouth from the top of the hill which we trekked up to.
All this sense and evidence won’t change anyone’s mind here. Too many people prefer to have their own need for retribution satisfied rather than problems solved and rehabilitation increased
Personally, I think if you commit a crime you deserve to be punished. If someone, God forbid, killed or raped a member of your family, wouldn’t you feel cheated if they were sent off to a holiday camp at your expense, given good food, shelter, security, leisure activities and a comfortable bed rather than dangling at the end of a rope?
I’m sure I would want them to suffer pain 24 hours a day. But a criminal justice system doesn’t operate based purely on the wishes of victim’s families. Society needs to rehabilitate so that there will be less future victims and less future criminals. You only need to look at the War on Drugs in the US to see how criminal justice policies can destroy communities and continue the cycle of crime
True, it’s important to try reduce the crime levels, but they will escape justice. This type of system is ok for people who commit minor crimes, but for rapists and drug dealers society is just better off without them, the only thing they would be fit for is human experimentation.
After our house was burgled I thought some very dark thoughts about the people who did it. I’m glad I wasnt in the house at the time. Justice is not about revenge.
The thing about restorative sytems is they are about action and consequence. Some young men see going to prison as a badge of honour or a rite of passage. They often learn too late that it limits their prospects.
If prison was an effective deterrent to crime then the US would have one of the lowest crime rates in the world. Theres also the powerful private prison industry lobby in the US .
edit : I’d rather see the people who burlgeld my house rehabilitated and doing something more useful with their lives. Prison institutionalizes people it becomes a cycles of committing a crime , going to prision over and over angain. Its an awful waste of human potential.
They probably have a low prision rate because they didnt put 1000 in prison for no tv licence. One things is for sure our way isn’t working so we should be open to trying new things.
Locking people in prisions that are over crowded which strip your dignity when you’ve to releieve yourself in pot in front of two other men for years on end. Putting people in a place where slashing someone’s face is dealt with within the prison and not the court room breading more violence. Accepting and allowing a flow of drugs in and out in order to keep peace instead of out right stopping it and having a proper rehabilitation programs. That would be out way in a nutshell.
Cork is the last prison slopping out and the new prison is way ahead of time. Slashing someone’s face is dealth with by the property authorities but because of the nature of the place of incident (reluctance of others to give evidence etc) it’s harder to get conviction on the seldom time it happens, and the free flow of drugs is widely over stated and when drugs do get in it’s normally “internal packages” which brings a whole different issue in relation to searching,isolation and the smugglers human rights.
The Scandinavian model works for Scandinavians. We AREN’T Scandinavian. Our culture is completely different. The Left wing extremists would be only delighted to see our already lenient/non existent justice system turn into a holiday camp for criminals. Also, there incarsceration rate is so low because it is a well know fact that left leaning systems are generally not interested in criminal justice, whereas the USA actually put murderers in jail FOR LIFE.
Of course, the left wing media are only too happy to promote such a nonsensical idea as trying to rehabilitate murderers.
It’s a constant source of amazement to me that people get labelled as ‘left’ or ‘right’. I am completely in agreement with the Norwegian prison approach, but want far less government spending, and/or general involvement in my life. Does that make me left or right?
Judges sit and listen to all the evidence and circumstances. To be fair, they rarely get it wrong. Most of the outrageous responses people come out with are borne out of ignorance of the full picture.
@Jimminy BillyBob I have been in Norway a few times for my business, I have friends there, you have a point buy is the contest of how you say it that makes your very narrow like minded with no back up.
Norway has a conservative head of state, most people in Norway are conservatives, but being conservative in Norway is not the same as being conservative in Ireland, Norway is anti-EU and quite socialist and their core foundations are backed up by people from all major political backgrounds.
Olso has a problem with Homelessness and Junkies, linked together, they are another culture, true, but don’t put them on a pedestal either.
Is this another Ireland are looking at cos god knows we can’t come up with our own systems, pretty much how we do things “just do what Finland or Norway do, but only if Germany let us” bring on the red thumbs of denial
Every single system of governance keeps abreast of best practice the world over – it is not just Ireland that does this – we can all learn from each other…
I did actually. I just know that if someone murdered one of my kids I’d want them thrown into a hellhole for life. Not some holiday camp where focus is on making them feel better about themselves and then letting them walk free when they have convinced some board of lefties that they are ‘better’. Where is the focus on the victim of crime in all this?
As the article stated, relatives of Anders Breivik’s victims were happy with his sentence (the only Norwegian murderer Ive heard of) so their justice system seems to work for the victims too
Restorative justice involves the victim/family of the victim and the criminal coming face to face in order for them both to deal with what has happened, and to put a real person to both sides of the crime. This has proven to make people less likely to reoffend. That involves the victim, doesn’t it?
Norway wasn’t always this way. There’s a very good film (can’t remember the name) based on true events about the cruelty and abuse of young offenders on Bastoy prison island. Eventually the kids rebelled and drove off their gaolers and the island had to be retaken by the Norwegian Navy in a warship. They’ve learned the hard way that the worse the prison system, the more recidivism. Check out Russian penal colonies and hire the hard way only needs harder criminals
Anyone ever consider that maybe Norway just has a really really good propaganda machine and the country itself is actually terrible? Think about it. Do you know anyone who’s ever been to Norway? Why aren’t people emigrating there in their droves?
Realistically, you want to make prison a place people REALLY dont want to go. What’s stopping people from committing crimes if the consequence is going to a ‘rehabilitation centre’ like the ones in Norway. Doesn’t make much sense to me. (Unless the criminal has a serious mental illness then of course he/she should go to a psychiatric hospital and be treated for their illness.)
The problem is, middle and working class people don’t understand the motivations of the underclass, so they won’t go for something even if it’s deemed best practice, they’ll go with what they think works for them. Most can’t understand that some people don’t mind prison.
Billions and billions spent on rehabilitation! Hahahahhaha! It’s so laughable. The cheapest way to deal with sc0m is to get rid of them! Gas or lethal injection whichever suits
Will drugs like Ozempic change how we view obesity in Ireland?
42 mins ago
434
Villach
Syrian asylum seeker arrested after teenager killed and five others wounded in Austria stabbing
44 mins ago
1.8k
south anne street
Murder investigation launched after fatal stabbing in Dublin city centre
Updated
16 hrs ago
96.1k
Your Cookies. Your Choice.
Cookies help provide our news service while also enabling the advertising needed to fund this work.
We categorise cookies as Necessary, Performance (used to analyse the site performance) and Targeting (used to target advertising which helps us keep this service free).
We and our 148 partners store and access personal data, like browsing data or unique identifiers, on your device. Selecting Accept All enables tracking technologies to support the purposes shown under we and our partners process data to provide. If trackers are disabled, some content and ads you see may not be as relevant to you. You can resurface this menu to change your choices or withdraw consent at any time by clicking the Cookie Preferences link on the bottom of the webpage .Your choices will have effect within our Website. For more details, refer to our Privacy Policy.
We and our vendors process data for the following purposes:
Use precise geolocation data. Actively scan device characteristics for identification. Store and/or access information on a device. Personalised advertising and content, advertising and content measurement, audience research and services development.
Cookies Preference Centre
We process your data to deliver content or advertisements and measure the delivery of such content or advertisements to extract insights about our website. We share this information with our partners on the basis of consent. You may exercise your right to consent, based on a specific purpose below or at a partner level in the link under each purpose. Some vendors may process your data based on their legitimate interests, which does not require your consent. You cannot object to tracking technologies placed to ensure security, prevent fraud, fix errors, or deliver and present advertising and content, and precise geolocation data and active scanning of device characteristics for identification may be used to support this purpose. This exception does not apply to targeted advertising. These choices will be signaled to our vendors participating in the Transparency and Consent Framework.
Manage Consent Preferences
Necessary Cookies
Always Active
These cookies are necessary for the website to function and cannot be switched off in our systems. They are usually only set in response to actions made by you which amount to a request for services, such as setting your privacy preferences, logging in or filling in forms. You can set your browser to block or alert you about these cookies, but some parts of the site will not then work.
Targeting Cookies
These cookies may be set through our site by our advertising partners. They may be used by those companies to build a profile of your interests and show you relevant adverts on other sites. They do not store directly personal information, but are based on uniquely identifying your browser and internet device. If you do not allow these cookies, you will experience less targeted advertising.
Functional Cookies
These cookies enable the website to provide enhanced functionality and personalisation. They may be set by us or by third party providers whose services we have added to our pages. If you do not allow these cookies then these services may not function properly.
Performance Cookies
These cookies allow us to count visits and traffic sources so we can measure and improve the performance of our site. They help us to know which pages are the most and least popular and see how visitors move around the site. All information these cookies collect is aggregated and therefore anonymous. If you do not allow these cookies we will not be able to monitor our performance.
Store and/or access information on a device 102 partners can use this purpose
Cookies, device or similar online identifiers (e.g. login-based identifiers, randomly assigned identifiers, network based identifiers) together with other information (e.g. browser type and information, language, screen size, supported technologies etc.) can be stored or read on your device to recognise it each time it connects to an app or to a website, for one or several of the purposes presented here.
Personalised advertising and content, advertising and content measurement, audience research and services development 133 partners can use this purpose
Use limited data to select advertising 103 partners can use this purpose
Advertising presented to you on this service can be based on limited data, such as the website or app you are using, your non-precise location, your device type or which content you are (or have been) interacting with (for example, to limit the number of times an ad is presented to you).
Create profiles for personalised advertising 75 partners can use this purpose
Information about your activity on this service (such as forms you submit, content you look at) can be stored and combined with other information about you (for example, information from your previous activity on this service and other websites or apps) or similar users. This is then used to build or improve a profile about you (that might include possible interests and personal aspects). Your profile can be used (also later) to present advertising that appears more relevant based on your possible interests by this and other entities.
Use profiles to select personalised advertising 74 partners can use this purpose
Advertising presented to you on this service can be based on your advertising profiles, which can reflect your activity on this service or other websites or apps (like the forms you submit, content you look at), possible interests and personal aspects.
Create profiles to personalise content 36 partners can use this purpose
Information about your activity on this service (for instance, forms you submit, non-advertising content you look at) can be stored and combined with other information about you (such as your previous activity on this service or other websites or apps) or similar users. This is then used to build or improve a profile about you (which might for example include possible interests and personal aspects). Your profile can be used (also later) to present content that appears more relevant based on your possible interests, such as by adapting the order in which content is shown to you, so that it is even easier for you to find content that matches your interests.
Use profiles to select personalised content 32 partners can use this purpose
Content presented to you on this service can be based on your content personalisation profiles, which can reflect your activity on this or other services (for instance, the forms you submit, content you look at), possible interests and personal aspects. This can for example be used to adapt the order in which content is shown to you, so that it is even easier for you to find (non-advertising) content that matches your interests.
Measure advertising performance 124 partners can use this purpose
Information regarding which advertising is presented to you and how you interact with it can be used to determine how well an advert has worked for you or other users and whether the goals of the advertising were reached. For instance, whether you saw an ad, whether you clicked on it, whether it led you to buy a product or visit a website, etc. This is very helpful to understand the relevance of advertising campaigns.
Measure content performance 59 partners can use this purpose
Information regarding which content is presented to you and how you interact with it can be used to determine whether the (non-advertising) content e.g. reached its intended audience and matched your interests. For instance, whether you read an article, watch a video, listen to a podcast or look at a product description, how long you spent on this service and the web pages you visit etc. This is very helpful to understand the relevance of (non-advertising) content that is shown to you.
Understand audiences through statistics or combinations of data from different sources 72 partners can use this purpose
Reports can be generated based on the combination of data sets (like user profiles, statistics, market research, analytics data) regarding your interactions and those of other users with advertising or (non-advertising) content to identify common characteristics (for instance, to determine which target audiences are more receptive to an ad campaign or to certain contents).
Develop and improve services 79 partners can use this purpose
Information about your activity on this service, such as your interaction with ads or content, can be very helpful to improve products and services and to build new products and services based on user interactions, the type of audience, etc. This specific purpose does not include the development or improvement of user profiles and identifiers.
Use limited data to select content 37 partners can use this purpose
Content presented to you on this service can be based on limited data, such as the website or app you are using, your non-precise location, your device type, or which content you are (or have been) interacting with (for example, to limit the number of times a video or an article is presented to you).
Use precise geolocation data 42 partners can use this special feature
With your acceptance, your precise location (within a radius of less than 500 metres) may be used in support of the purposes explained in this notice.
Actively scan device characteristics for identification 24 partners can use this special feature
With your acceptance, certain characteristics specific to your device might be requested and used to distinguish it from other devices (such as the installed fonts or plugins, the resolution of your screen) in support of the purposes explained in this notice.
Ensure security, prevent and detect fraud, and fix errors 82 partners can use this special purpose
Always Active
Your data can be used to monitor for and prevent unusual and possibly fraudulent activity (for example, regarding advertising, ad clicks by bots), and ensure systems and processes work properly and securely. It can also be used to correct any problems you, the publisher or the advertiser may encounter in the delivery of content and ads and in your interaction with them.
Deliver and present advertising and content 92 partners can use this special purpose
Always Active
Certain information (like an IP address or device capabilities) is used to ensure the technical compatibility of the content or advertising, and to facilitate the transmission of the content or ad to your device.
Match and combine data from other data sources 65 partners can use this feature
Always Active
Information about your activity on this service may be matched and combined with other information relating to you and originating from various sources (for instance your activity on a separate online service, your use of a loyalty card in-store, or your answers to a survey), in support of the purposes explained in this notice.
Link different devices 48 partners can use this feature
Always Active
In support of the purposes explained in this notice, your device might be considered as likely linked to other devices that belong to you or your household (for instance because you are logged in to the same service on both your phone and your computer, or because you may use the same Internet connection on both devices).
Identify devices based on information transmitted automatically 81 partners can use this feature
Always Active
Your device might be distinguished from other devices based on information it automatically sends when accessing the Internet (for instance, the IP address of your Internet connection or the type of browser you are using) in support of the purposes exposed in this notice.
Save and communicate privacy choices 60 partners can use this special purpose
Always Active
The choices you make regarding the purposes and entities listed in this notice are saved and made available to those entities in the form of digital signals (such as a string of characters). This is necessary in order to enable both this service and those entities to respect such choices.
have your say