Sign in. It’s quick, free and it’s up to you.
An account is an optional way to support the work we do. Find out more.
Updated 1.20pm
THE CITIZENS’ ASSEMBLY have been given a legal opinion on a number of scenarios that could occur if the Eighth Amendment is repealed or if it is amended.
Speaking this afternoon on the penultimate weekend of the assembly’s deliberations on Ireland’s abortion regime, Brian Murray SC laid out what he felt would happen in a number of scenarios.
Pointing out that it was not his role to sway the members in either direction, Murray said he felt that members had three ‘possible options’ when it comes to their ultimate recommendation.
These options he felt were to retain, repeal or amend the Eighth Amendment.
In the case of retaining, he said the situation as it stands would remain.
Repeal the Eighth
If it were repealed and not replaced, he felt there would be three possible interpretations of the legal situation that would follow.
The first he said was the Oireachtas would be given “free rein” to legislate for Ireland’s abortion regime.
“The Oireachtas would become the sole judge of whether and in what circumstances, legislation should permit abortion,” he said.
In the second interpretation, he said that the legal view may be that the situation returns to the pre-1983 position where the unborn had “implied rights under the Constitution” rather having them expressly included.
He says this situation may limit the right of the Oireachtas to legislate freely to make abortion lawful as such laws may be challenged in the courts.
In the third interpretation, Murray said that the removal of the protection of the unborn would mean that a woman’s right to bodily integrity and autonomy “would now prevail over many countervailing circumstances.”
In effect it would give a woman the right to “decide if and when to have an abortion.”
Amend
In the case of amending the Eighth Amendment, Murray presented the members with a number of potential options.
They are:
Other issues
Earlier this morning, members heard a number of presentations by legal experts on the role of the Eighth Amendment in medical practice.
The 99 members heard from barrister Emily Egan SC who spoke about the role of the Eighth Amendment on medical and parental decision-making.
Egan spoke to members about the role of a medical consent as well as the role of the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act.
UCD’s John O’Dowd spoke about the complexities in law of defining when ‘the unborn’ exists and pointed out that ‘the unborn’ does have other rights under Irish law aside from ‘life’.
O’Dowd also spoke about the judicial disagreement over the how the right to life is expanded beyond the issue of terminations.
This afternoon, the assembly will hear six first-hand experiences from women affected by the Eighth Amendment.
The anonymous personal stories will be played for assembly members in the form of edited audio interviews that are between 7-7.5 minutes long.
As part of its work, the assembly received more than 13,500 submissions from advocacy groups and members of the public.
This weekend’s work programme is dictated by those submissions with 23 groups or individuals making their presentations in person.
Tomorrow the 17 advocacy groups chosen to participate have each nominated an individual to represent them in person.
To account for the significant work programme, this weekend was lengthened compared to previous meetings with the consent of the assembly members.
A recommendation will be made to the Oireachtas at next month’s meeting of the assembly.
This recommendation will be made following a vote or series of votes by the assembly members.
If a change is recommended, the government must decide if a referendum is required.
Whether or not a change is proposed, the assembly’s recommendation will be more precise than simply stating whether or not a referendum should be held or whether the law should be amended.
Further details of this weekend’s schedule are available online and the proceedings will also be streamed on citizensassembly.ie.
Follow @ronanduffy_ for updates throughout the weekend.
To embed this post, copy the code below on your site
Fair play to the assembly members because given the Tuam revelations this weekend I’d personally find it extremely difficult to sit silently and listen to any Catholic pro-life rhetoric.
Michael
Could you listen to a pro life rhetoric that wasn’t catholic?
Something to ponder.
It would be easier to listen to someone that wasn’t coming from a place of pure hypocrisy, Tom, someone who wasn’t from an institution or religion that clearly has very little regard, concern or respect for the human that’s born rather than just the foetus in utero.
@Tom Burke: the Roman Catholic Church was responsible for the Eight Amendment, for the sexual and physical abuse and fatal neglect of children, for the opprobrium and discrimination inflicted on unmarried pregnant women,
I listened to a woman who was mixed race deatil her experience in St Joseph’s orphanage. It was vile maltreatment. It was disgusting cruel and sadistic.
The Roman Catholic Church just wants to exercise control and dominion over its flock by interfering in laws and in the Constitution.
Tony.
That was a question for Michael.
Don’t feel compelled to repeat yourself 15 times on every thread.
@Tom Burke: it’s an open forum.
You post vastly more comments than I do and I don’t object to your right to comment.
@Tony Daly: Tom is all about control.
Comment all you like but the question wasn’t for you.
@Tom Burke: thank you for your permission Tom.
Yes I would Tom. It’s just the Catholic institution’s hypocrisy I’ve a problem with.
After seeing the horrors of Tuam babies being dumped is there any real difference between that and the horrors of aborted babies/foetuses being dumped or burned in incinerators? Both are equally disgusting how they ate treated
It doesn’t make sense to me that people are (rightly ) condemning the church for how they treated those poor children yet advocating for the “right ” to kill babies in the womb. Both are equally grotesque
And they shout and point and call them hypocrites the irony is lost on them.
Patricia are you against emergency contraception?
@Greg Kelly: there is no such thing as an aborted baby. Most abortions involve embryos, some, and a small number are foetuses. The Tuam babies had been born, they were fully developed human beings, there is no comparison
@EvieXVI: once the baby is born, it is the product of sin. It is only innocent before it is born. After it is born, it is disposable. That is Roman Catholic dogma on original sin.
The Dail is our citizens assembly.
I find those advocating a “right to life” on behalf of an institution that overseen mass baby graves in Tuam somewhat insulting
Stephen and those crying out how awful it is to have tiny babies dumped in a mass grave and the horrors of that yet advocate for doing the same with aborted foetuses/babies by the pro choice side is pure hypocrisy and insulting to any of us who value all forms of human life.
Couldn’t agree more Greg. The hypocrisy of Repealers these last few days has been appalling.
To you also find it “somewhat insulting” that those advocating a right to kill a child before birth are using the awful Tuam baby case?? No?? Didn’t think so..
Greg etc: are you against emergency contraception?
@ Greg Kelly. Who has ever advocated the dumping of terminated feotal remains get dumped into septic tanks???
Those unfortunatly forced to travel abroad protest that they often cant return with these remains with the dignity and respect that they deserve.
It’s actually sickening, how dare they preach to the masses when they believe in an institute that certainly doesn’t have Women and children’s best interest at heart , bunch of bloody hypocrites
Cos taking a pill at 9 weeks gestation is exactly the same as a religious institute starving a baby to death.
While they’re at it, can they remove all references to God from the constitution please?
We’re over 100 years old as a state, it’s time we grew up as a nation
Why not remove it from the English language to keep the atheists happy? Don’t forget to airbrush God off the proclamation too. Get Trump to remove the hideous word from the Star Bangled Banner too “In God is our trust”. The offended generation is upon us.
No the generation that has critical thinking is upon us.
Sean, I’m an atheist. I don’t believe in any God. I do believe in other people having the freedom to worship as they see fit.
However. The state having “belief” in an unproven and unprovable goes against all common sense.
The wording should have been removed long ago for proper separation of church and state.
Perhaps we should have a referendum on it? We should search old literature also and remove any mention of a flat earth. Oh and Santa Clause should be removed from society. We are indoctrinating our poor innocent children into a toy giving cult. Santa for Cola ads only.
@Sean @114: no Sean, let’s just remove it from our constitution, it has no place there.. Just like you and the other pro foetus nut jobs have no business in women’s wombs.
Without sounding too abrasive, hopefully the assembly takes the findings in Tuam into account when discussing the catholic churches ‘cherish them both’ message in relation to the 8th.
@The Risen: it should do so. Catherine Corless should be invited to present.
And hopefully the Tuam horrors give food for thougjt for those pro abortion people who might rethink their moral compass of what happend to dead babies being thrown in a dump and the similarities of aborted fouteses/babies being dumped or burned in incinerators also.
@Greg Kelly: a foetus is one think. A young baby or child is very different.
@Tony Daly: Greg is an old foetus.
@Francis Mc Carthy: chuckling!
Why is it that if you are against abortion you are a religious nut. What swayed my mind was listening to that young woman with Down syndrome talk about how it felt like to hear people talk about wiping out that particular group of people. It really gave me food for thought.
Its only prolife people I have really heard make that statement. They are trying to scare people and are not bothered by who gets hurt in their scare tactics
I’m pro choice and I completely agree with you.
Labelling everyone who is pro life as a “religious nut” is not doing the pro choice campaign any favours.
The pro life campaign is equally damming in its labelling of those who think differently.
It’s really galling in this day and age we can’t respect other people’s opinions
Sally
It’s typical pro abortion rhetoric where anybody who raises a valid point gets a slap.
Wind your neck in please.
@Maria: religious nuts support the Eight Amendment.
Others do as well but the religious dimension can’t be ignored. That was the cause of the Eight Amendment campaign back in 1982 leading to the Referendum in 1983. 7 Roman Catholic pressure groups and the Roman Catholic Church colluded to foistbthe Eight Amendment on the Roman Catholic electorate.
The Eight Amendment is primarily about religion, specifically one religion, the Roman Catholic religion.
Nothing to do with religion at all, as much as fanatical atheists would like to believe otherwise. It’s about termination of life of the unborn. In what cases is it morally acceptable to do this and in what cases is it not? We are all free thinkers. Religion has nothing to do with it.
@Sean @114: religion was the cause of and the motivation for the Eight Amendment.
@Tony Daly: The Right to life is the cause and motivation for the 8th amendment. One does not have to be religious to support someones right to life.
Yes I notice that you used the past tense there Tony. Religion was the motivation behind most things in history, good and bad. Are you suggesting that this week’s IT poll was religiously motivated, somehow rigged by the RC ‘cult’. You are mixing up religious matters with moral matters I suspect.
Maria you have to stick to the script here. We are all religious nutters and members of the Catholic ‘cult’ remember? How could we possibly contemplate protecting a life otherwise?
@Sean @114: how about the anti choicers just respect that this is a democracy and stop trying to impede a referendum taking place? Put it to a vote and lets see how accurate your polls are. As could be seen by recent world events, polls can be very wrong. Why not just let people and their very individual, non indoctrinated minds, vote on this?
I’m all for it Dell. But the pocket of atheist pro-abortion loonies labelling every pro-choice speaker as a religious nut are living in an atheist fairytale land if they think that’s the case
@Sean @114: are there any Roman Catholic religious nuts opposed to the Eight Amendment?
@Sean @114: . Well Sean the pro foetus movement is funded for the most part by the church… The loudest voices opposing pro choice are for the most part religious nut jobs.. See tom, maria, rosie Murray, Joe and lets not forget good old Marion as references. Then there are a few who claim not to be influenced by the church but under further scrutiny very much are. I’m not saying that all pro foetus people are religious nuts but the majority of those who comment on here are.
And Dell do you think that this nut job number make up the 70% polled who are against abortion on demand? 3 or 4 vocal posters is representative of nothing. Pro-abortionists will keep desperately pointing to religion in an attempt to slur pro-life opinion but fortunately it is the free thinking non-religious people who are in the majority in that grouping I would say. I’m sure you may also get some Catholics who believe in abortion in the same way that a lot of atheists believe in the preservation of life.
@Dell: The loudest voices opposing pro choice are for the most part religious nut jobs …… yes but majority as per usual are silent. Do they trust the government by removing the 8th? Or do they wish to control the politicians as our constitution allows us to.
@Sean @114: Anyone who denies that the overwhelming majority of anti-choicers aren’t religious is living in a parallel universe. One swallow does not make a summer.
Give us that stats on that one Open Borders. Are you saying that all/vast majority of those people who are not pro-abortion are practicing Catholics? I would seriously doubt that.
@Sean @114: aren’t you twisting those poll results ever so slightly there sean? See Francis post below for the poll figures.. 70 per cent is wishful thinking on the part of pro foetus nut jobs.
@Dell: Francis nor your good self read the poll. I added as link. Scroll to the end and there is a direct question about the 8th.
Of course one doesn’t, Maria. But you are one of many, let’s not be hypocritical here!
Ah Lavbeer would you stop putting facts in the way of a good atheist nut job rant. Unfortunately the bitterness runs so deep within some in the pro-abortion lobby that they forget to check in on facts. Oh and a foetus is a living entity so pro-life is probably an adequate term for the grouping that wants to protect that life. Nobody mentioned babies.
@Sean @114: it’s a foetus Seany boy.. So pro foetus is incredibly accurate
@Tony Daly: Of course there are “Roman Catholic Religious nuts” opposed to the eight ammemdment. You clearly are one of them.
@Maria Mhic Mheanmain: I am not a Roman Catholic.
@Tony Daly: don’t kid yourself tony, you are more obsessed with the RC church that most catholics i know! Look i have read all your posts here, and it is quite clear that your position on abortion is grounded in catholicsm, opposition to it perhaps, but catholicism nonetheless. if the RC church were to change it’s position to one of endorsing abortion tomorrow you would you would do a180, because it is all about the Catholic Church with you, nothing else.
Did you see the loudest bleaters about being antichoice to “save” DS are the very ones using ableist slurs like “tård”. Most of them don’t give a fiddlers about DS or any children’s rights, its just an anti abortion stunt.
I’m atheist and pro life. Abortion today and the horror and scandal of the Tuam baby home should not be considered together. I’m disgusted ye would use one against the other.
@RG Law: maybe you should look at some of the comments on the Tuam home, most of the Catholic anti choice brigade were trying to equate it then. They most certainly should not be considered together because they were living, breathing tortured little children, treated like they were filth while they were alive and dead by the same organisation that says every life is sacred. Most abortions are carried out in the first trimester of a pregnancy, they do not equate high up or low down to the starvation and abuse of born children. Those who still follow this disgusting cult like to say that a foetus equates to a fully formed born baby, given their treatment of fully formed born babies, they do not get to preach to anyone about abortion.
@RG Law: the Tuam scandal, unlikely to be unique, demonstrates that a child molesting, child abusing, child disrespecting, hateful, judgmental and poisonous institution does not deserve the moral authority to preach to us about the Eight Amendment, a Constitutional Amendment which was imposed on us by such an evil and inhumane institution.
Not anti choice, anti abortion.
“Not anti choice, anti abortion.” Are you against abortion to save a woman’s life ?
Thankfully we are all free thinkers Tony and many of us who respect the life, yes it is a life, are not Catholic or in fact religious at all, neither are we atheist fanatics. Pro abortionists simply have to accept that the majority of pro lifers are not practicing Catholics.
“”Pro abortionists” simply have to accept that the majority of “pro lifers” are not practicing Catholics.”
Have you a source for this,Sean?
@Sean @114: no, what pro choicers know and accept is that the anti choice movement is mostly funded and represented by Catholic organisations. That being said I don’t care if you are Catholic and anti choice or atheist or non practicing Catholic (a ridiculous term by the way, you are either Catholic or you aren’t, trying to mildly disassociate from the cult by calling oneself non practicing is farcical) if you are anti choice you are entitled to your opinion and your vote when hopefully this goes to a vote.
Oh Dear look at the % of mass goers now, as low as 2% in some Dublin dioceses. Now look at opinion polls which suggest that over 70% do not want abortion on demand. Draw your own conclusions. I know it sickens some of the fanatical atheist types but most of us are free thinkers. This is a moral question not a religious one.
Eh Dell, most of us are Catholic by birth. Sorry to burst your bubble on that one but ‘practicing’ is a very relevant term. Practicing Catholics are listening to and likely abiding by the teachings of the church. The rest of us don’t and just haven’t bothered emailing the arch-bishop to be ex-commed. We are free thinkers Dell, not members of any ‘cult’ be it an atheist cult or a religious cult. We just believe that in most circumstances it is not right to terminate the life of a being.
@Sean @114: I think you will find that you can’t email the Bishop and be excommunicated. Well you can but they don’t accept your resignation so to speak. You will always be counted amongst their numbers, probably helps them to maintain their farcical non tax paying charity status if they have higher numbers on the books. My point is that I don’t care what you are or are not, put it to the vote and let’s see how accurate your opinion polls are. I think that there is every chance that you are right and most don’t want abortion for reasons other than rape and FFA etc. And that’s fine then, let’s get on with it and legislate for that. But a blanket ban because a bunch of anti choicers are fanatically against women having access to abortion is completely ridiculous. I am pro choice but I’m willing to accept whatever would come from a referendum, the anti choicers don’t even want a referendum to take place.
@Sean @114: I agree. Church will not play a critical role in peoples thinking. Those days are gone. 28% in recent poll shows they want abortion on demand. That is what removing the 8th enables and puts it into the hands of the Kildare Street clowns. IMHO most people still want some protection for the unborn. Amending the 8th will achieve that. An option to amend also needs to be put to the people. If the people choose to fully repeal then so be it. I’m sure FG know a hospital owner who will pick up the workload from the HSE.
@lavbeer: the Eight Amendment was introduced and promoted by the Roman Catholic Church and its Roman Catholic pressures groups in 1983. The Eight Amendment is Roman Catholic dgma, Cinstitutionally enshrined.
Dell/Lavbeer. I agree with you both. Personally I’m in the 70% club. I don’t want abortion on demand/for convenience but I do accept that it is necessary in some cases. I suspect that the church’s influence on the outcome will be minimal but there should be a vote.
You’re quoting from acts that occurred over 3 decades ago Tony. That’s why there will be a referendum.
@Sean @114: So you have no source to back up your claim.Easy to know that you’re an anti choice person.
No it’s called logic Oh Dear. Something that seems to allude some of the fanatical atheist pro-abortion types. If you actually read my posts you will see where I am coming from. Check the IT poll results also. Catholic Church influence? Doubt it but sure look if you have stats to the contrary then please present.
Over 70% don’t want “abortion on demand” -that is hogwash,Sean.
50% said no
28% said yes
There was 12% of don’t no’s
And a 10% of Marion’s who said No under any circumstances.
Tony the 8th was voted for by people of Ireland including you I suspect.
Why am I pro choice?
I believe that a woman who has contributed to this society,that her life is wayyyy more valuable than an embryo..I’m sorry if this upsets the usual crowd of embryo lovers on here,but,it is what it is…This man is not for changing.Have a great day folks.
@lavbeer: your suspicious is unfounded and I note how you gratuitously personalise your comments towards me. The Roman Catholic Church imposed its will on the more than 90% Roman Catholic population in 1983.
Ignoring the Roman Catholic Church is ignoring the herd of elephants.
Again Tony, that was over 3 decades ago. You’re not seriously saying that time has stood still and nothing has changed are you?
@Tony Daly: I don’t mean to personalise. I am just trying to understand why your hatred of the catholic is such a strong influence in a referendum that they have little influence on. Nothing more.
@lavbeer: what part of the pro foetus movement being mostly funded by the Catholic Church are you not grasping as a reason to think that they may have some, if not a lot, of influence on a referendum? Especially when the pro foetus crew are doing their utmost to try stop a referendum taking place in the first place.
@Francis Mc Carthy: here is the IT pool
28% Repeal
54% Amend\Don’t Repeal
and the rest are essentially don’t knows or want a different option
Leaving the don’t knows out – that’s 68% of people are against removal
Interesting. A lot of religious nuts out there it seems
@Sean @114: “Eh Dell, most of us are Catholic by birth. ” Wrong Sean. all of us are atheists by birth.
Unfortunately many of these atheist children are forcibly brainwashed into believing all sorts of superstitious nonsense. The variety of nonsense inflicted upon these innocent children typically depends on what part of the world they were born in.
@Oh Dear!: I’m pro life but not a practising Catholic, most people I know who are pro life are not practising Catholics, granted, some are, but most not. And those who are, are not fanatics. Nothing wrong with being pro life, I’m certainly not ashamed of it.
@Dell: Simply that people these days can think for themselves and can see strategies used by church, by pro or anti whatever want to call it. Lots of agendas. But you know what – the Irish are an intelligent bunch.
@Terry Lawlor: Have you lost the plot? At birth, no human being has any concept of a what an atheist or catholic is, it’s the choices that the parents make that dictates which belief they will be acquainted with at a young age.
@lavbeer: On that pool there is this question :” Where a woman believes she would be unable to cope because of her age or circumstances.”
In other words,this is the one to do with “abortion on demand.”
50% wanted it to remain illegal
28% wanted it legal
12% don’t know
1% refused
10% of Marion’s said no way Jóse
@Francis Mc Carthy: I was referring to the question on the 8th Amendment. Sorry what is your point here? I replied to your comment disagreeing that Sean’s comment was hogwash.
@lavbeer: “Now look at opinion polls which suggest that over 70% do not want abortion on demand”
You’re welcome!
@Francis Mc Carthy: Thank you. You are correct. In the IT poll it was 68%. Have you anything else to add ?
@lavbeer: I knew that I was correct.Thank you.
@Francis Mc Carthy: Good man – a hollow victory but a victory nonetheless.
Amend the 8th. Don’t repeal it. Cover specific issues like rape , incest , fatal foetal abnormalities etc but don’t go back to the unknown .
I think some would be happy with your suggestion. Unfortunately though there are those on both sides of this issue who would feel this does not resolve the issue. I ultimately think that whatever is or is not done will be too much for some and not enough for others.
Give women back full and complete autonomy over their own bodies.
@rory conway: it is not possible to draft a general provision in a Constitution which addresses the highly complex and circumstance dependent issue of abortion.
The 8th Amendment should never have been introduced in the first place.
It is a Roman Catholic cancer in our Constitution. It needs to be excused, not amended.
The Constitution is not the place for complex detail. Legislation can do that after repeal of the 8th.
@Terry McClatchey: you express that far better than I attempted to do. Thanks.
@Joan walsh: it is an extraordinary thing for a society to try to dictate to women something so personal to them as their own bodies.
Each woman should and must be entitled to decide according to her own circumstances. It is their individual decision.
If society wants to help it can do so by putting in place the maximum supports which enable a pregnant woman to go to full term but only she decides that she wishes so to do.
Tony
Give it a break.
You keep repeating yourself.
Why not leave it until you have something new to say.
Yourself and Dell.
Honestly
@Tom Burke: you fail to see the irony in your own comment.
We are free to comment. You and your wretched Church can no longer terrorise Ireland.
@Tom Burke: seriously tom would you ever go away, you have no business in women’s wombs, given some of your comments towards me and about women, you have no business being within talking distance of women let alone taken seriously on women’s reproduction rights. As for us repeating ourselves, funny coming from the greatest bore on the planet.
@Tony Daly: “rory conway: it is not possible to draft a general provision in a Constitution which addresses the highly complex and circumstance dependent issue of abortion.”
another example of your rubbish!!!! You sir are a fool
@lavbeer: Insee that you prefer to use invective instead of reasoning but that is not surprising.
@Tony Daly: Insee that you prefer to use invective instead of reasoning but that is not surprising.
No idea what you are talking about here Tony. Sorry.
@lavbeer: I can see that you can’t understand.
Rory, how would you prove and prosecute rape in the short time needed for a woman or girl to have an abortion? Is it enough to report it? What if the man denies it? Who is believed? If she’s judged to be lying, is she denied the right to travel and punished with a forced birth? Is she further punished by having to raise a child by rape that she never wanted? Will the rapist have a say in what happens?
Are people honestly this thick? It even says it in the article. Repealing the 8th does not make abortion legal. It just allows for legislation. Both pro life and pro choice should be pro Repealing the 8th. Does anyone honestly think it was right to have a situation where a pregnant woman had to wait till her baby died in her womb and because of that wait also die just because it was unconstitutional to not terminate a baby that would never be able to survive? Surely pro life values the idea of one person living rather than 2 dying for a flawed constitutional law?
@Sean McLoughlin: they will tell you that it didn’t happen that way, it was sepsis. That’s the excuse they like to use. No question on how she might acquire sepsis.
@Sean McLoughlin: …. here is a view
Are people honestly this thick? — No.
It even says it in the article. Repealing the 8th does not make abortion legal. It just allows for legislation. Both pro life and pro choice should be pro Repealing the 8th. — it allows for Kildare St to legislate – trust levels wouldn’t be too high?
Does anyone honestly think it was right to have a situation where a pregnant woman had to wait till her baby died in her womb and because of that wait also die just because it was unconstitutional to not terminate a baby that would never be able to survive? —- the current polls would suggest an amendment to allow for this. This is the unintended consequence.
Surely pro life values the idea of one person living rather than 2 dying for a flawed constitutional law? — the medical profession need to be enabled to make and action what they believe to be the best course of action
@lavbeer: the Eight Amendment was flawed from the outset. Fortunately most can circumvent the Eight Amendment by travelling out of the country unless too ill, too dependent, too poor or too vulnerable to do so.
The Eight Amendment is the enshrinement of Roman Catholic dogma in the people’s Constitution. It represents on,y the views of some of the people, primarily reactionary and conservative Roman Catholics.
@Tony Daly: Great – lets have a referendum with the all or nothing approach. Not a hope it will pass and them we have another 30 years for next one. Your church crap is a personal issue – deal with it.
Should Catherine Corless be invited to address the Citizens Assembly to show what happened when abortion was not availed of.
Better that the foetuses would have been aborted in the first trimester than to have gone to full term, been born and then so cruelly and unhumanely treated by an evil and oppressive institution.
Tony
Do you think what happened in Tuam would happen today?
If you actually slow down and think before you type, the question usually answers itself.
@Tom Burke: owing to the gradually attenuating control of the Roman Catholic Church it would be less likely to happen today but the issues of relevance to the Citizens Assembly ffunds origin in 1983 when the Roman Catholic Church held absolute sway.
History is important to the proper assessment of these issues.
@Tom Burke: it would not because you and your ilk do not have any power or credibility anymore. You do not get to preach to anyone tom Burke when you spend the rest of your time trying to deflect from the crimes of the organisation that committed them. I said it last night and I’ll say it again, when the systematic rape and cover up of said rapes didn’t turn you off the church you are beyond help and you most certainly should not be taken seriously on any level. When the head of your church today thinks that a lifetime of prayer is enough punishment for raping children, your credibility is actually less than zero..
@Tony Daly: that is a very cheap shot linking those two events. Your hatred has removed your objectivity.
@lavbeer: the two issues are intrinsically linked. The connecting factor is Roman Catholicism and what happens when abortion is unavailable.
Better an abortion in the first trimester than death by disease and malnutrition.
The Tuam babies issue reveals the following:-
1. The inhumanity of the institution of the Roman Catholic Church.
2. The unhealthy dominion of the Roman Catholic Church.
3. The uncaring ethos (ideology) and agenda behind the Eight Amendment back in 1983, when it was introduced.
4. The hypocrisy and double standards of the Roman Catholic Church in relation to real children.
The Roman Catholic Church has firm and “previous”. We have seen the widespread clerical sexual abuse issue and it’s concealment and facilitation, the opprobrium inflicted on unmarried mothers by the Roman Catholic Church, it’s cruel and inhumane institutions, its promotion of hate and prejudice, and its dogmatic impositions.
I judge an institution by it conduct and by its influence.
The Roman Catholic Church does not deserve to be seriously listened to on the EightvAmendment or on any other issue. It is a demonstrably evil institution which has engaged in demonstrably evil and heinous conduct.
Tony what % do you believe are seriously listening to the church? Of the 70%+ who don’t want abortion on demand, what % are practicing members of this ‘cult’ as you call it? You seem to be more obsessed with the church than the moral question at hand. Save your comments for a ‘the Pope is visiting’ article.
@Sean @114: the reason for the Eight Amendment is the Roman Catholic Church. Address cause.
@Tony Daly: “the two issues are intrinsically linked. The connecting factor is Roman Catholicism and what happens when abortion is unavailable. ”
In your mind Tony – not mine.
@lavbeer: if you use the expression “mind” in your case in a very loose sense, I might be tempted to agree with you.
@Tony Daly: Whatever – linking the two events is merely an indication of your bitterness. You have issues sir and guilt I suspect. And you know what – your views interest me so I can guide my kids not to be like you. Deal with your bitterness.
@lavbeer: what happens if one of your kids wants to have an abortion lavbeer? Adamantly wants one, but does not have the money. Would you give them the money?
@Dell: ahh, a real life and real question.
@Dell: This is a financial question ? Absolutely no way abortion should be on the medical card imho.
For one of my girls: If it was because of FFR\rape then I raise the cash and do what I have to. This as a minimum needs to be available in Ireland. And that is why I want a 3 option referendum. I don’t know the answer to your next question – my gut says have the kid.. I am in the 70% currently.
@Tony Daly: Come on – tell us the source of your hatred? What happened ?
@lavbeer: the realisation that Roman Catholicism has no real interest in the welfare of pregnant women our young children, on,y in the propagation of its reactionary and inflexible dogma.
@lavbeer: but it wouldn’t be your choice, it would be your daughters choice. And if she wasn’t raped and it wasn’t FFA but she wanted an abortion? She doesn’t want kids, she doesn’t want to carry a pregnancy full term, her contraception failed and she doesn’t want to have a child and have you raise it. Could she get the money from you?
Yesterday’s Irish Time MRBI poll which categorically demonstrated that an overwhelming majority of Irish people do not want a British style abortion on demand regime was a stinging slap in the face for the pro abortion lobby who have foolishly pinned their hopes on the citizen’s assembly as a means to unlock the constitutional block to their hopes in that regard.
This despite the fact that from the moment of its inception the assembly has been heavily weighted in favour of the pro abortion perspective.
If the government thought this was an easy escape route then they have been given a wake up call.
Even with a majority government it would take at least two years before a referendum would have been held.
With the phenomenon of New Irish politics nothing will happen on this for at least five more years and even then one thing is certain: The Irish people will not be railroaded into abortion on demand no matter how the language is sugar coated.
A turning point in the public debate.
The underhanded, disingenuous hypocrisy of the pro abortion lobby has been exposed.
Please Emmet.
Abortion is an unsavoury word.
Nobody wants to be labelled pro abortion.
Pro choice is a far more socially acceptable phrase.
@Tom Burke:
Sanitizing the language of abortion is a corner stone of the pro abortion lobby.
@Tom Burke: Your lot were celebrating the ‘global gag ban,’ which doubles abortion rates in the Sub Saharan African countries.Ye lot are the true pro aborts.Cool.
This weekend especially, it almost feels like the yolk was set up to distract from all the evil still being covered up in this so called republic. Forget arriving at same sex marriage.forget apparent job creation which isnt even clearly something to celebrate like the former, this country is a disgrace to the west – thank goodness most of the people are not.
The 8th serves absolutely no purpose as there is a constitutional loophole to travel. The only reason it’s there in the first place is due a Catholic agenda not to mention it’s completely badly worded with unintentional consequences. Repeal it and leave legislating to the proper forum which is the Dail. The 8th only purpose now is to stop women below a certain income level from getting an abortion. A constitutional provision is not needed.
@David McDermott: exactly. I hope that all the pro foetus nut jobs sleep better at night knowing that the ammendment they want to hang onto does nothing except make life increasingly harder for women who are already in dire circumstances. Most women who want to have an abortion have one, I think that if abortion wasn’t available on England for Irish women, the polls would have read completely differently. .
The personal stories of the 27 people are highly relevant and will help to inform the Members of the Citizens Assembly.
Of course, there are some who would not want the personal stories listened to.
And of course personal stories from those who terminated should be heard too as they are highly relevant. Of wait….
@Sean @114: they have no personal stories. Yiu know that.
@Sean @114: there are personal stories being heard by those who terminated. Keep up Sean.
Oh sorry for not keeping pace there Dell. It’s early. How about from those who terminated and then regretted it? Oh wait….
@Sean @114: how about from TFMR, the organisation in relation to FFA? Oh wait…
Personally Dell I would have no problem with that. I’m all on for fair debate. Do keep up.
@Sean @114: so am I but they can only hear so many arguments.. Give them a sodding break. There are limitless arguments for and against, they have limited time. And as far as I’m concerned this is just a time wasting process anyway to put off the inevitable, let’s not prolong it any further.
@Sean @114: thus should have gone under your comment on you being all for debate
Repeal the “H 8te”
The Truman Babies religion will tell us all how to vote if there is a Referendum.
Exactly. To stop this type of thing happening ever again with human life whether born or aborted pre birth.
@Greg Kelly: you are confused.
@Tony Daly:
You sir have a problem. You need to get that extreme negative obsession you have with the Catholic Church seen to. You are in no way objective, just rushes of blood to the brain that result in embarrassing hysterical rants against the CC. Because of that it is very hard to take you seriously.
Let women have Catholic Church endorsed Tuam style abortions where they give birth and then leave the baby to starve to death. Much more moral.
Yep. Because poisoning it or cutting its spinal cord while in the womb and then incinerating it is far more humane.
@Keano: over 90% of abortions happen before there’s a spinal cord formed to cut. You need to stop watching abortion porn.
Whatever eases your conscience Daisy. Does the act kill life or not?
@Sean @114: It ends a pregnancy. At the time most abortions happen, the woman is as likely to have a natural miscarriage as a chemically induced miscarriage. Natural miscarriages kill potential life too.
That question required a yes or no answer Daisy. Are you a politician by any chance? Does the act end life or not? It’s a simple question.
@Sean @114: Do you see a time where women will not be procuring abortions in the first trimester? Genuine question.
@Sean @114: does pulling a weed out of the ground end a life? I think it does.. I dont see you chasing gardeners around talking about that life being ended. Is an 8 week old foetus equal to a fully formed human being, no. Glad we cleared all that up. Could you and the other pro foetus nut jobs just do one and pedal your rubbish somewhere else. Thanks.
@Dell: This is an article that I read awhile back ..there is a photo of a foetus at eight & a half weeks that she miscarried..It is around the size of a 10 cent coin and she holds it in the centre of her hand.The anti choicer’s on here puts that non sentient foetus above that actual human being.Sad.
*WARNING* *GRAPHIC IMAGES*
https://medium.com/athena-talks/this-is-what-happens-to-the-bodies-of-the-women-you-know-70f228a14137#.obtq2qy4x
@Francis Mc Carthy: exactly.. And it looks considerably different to the pro foetus literature that tries to pass off still births or late term abortion in the cases of FFA as first trimester miscarriages.
Dell
I can’t believe you’re comparing human life to a weed and then calling somebody a nut job.
The point of human life being fully formed or not is not the issue.
It’s the termination of its life is the issue.
@Tom Burke: thankfully abortion prevents life and does not terminate life. Sometimes abortion even saves lives.
@Tom Burke: Tom, seans argument is that a foetus is life, I’m simply pointing out that other things are life too. If you can’t get that, well.. Actually I don’t really care whether you get that or not.. You keep trying to deflect and defend an organisation that hid dead babies in a cesspit. I have zero respect for you and your hypocritical opinion. Trying to deflect from the same organisation that hid rapists was bad enough but today and yesterday you really out did yourself. Let me make this easy for you tom.. There is no heaven so you do not need to keep trying to defend the church so you may get in the good books and get accepted beyond the pearly gates. . The church is not more important than any one of the victims they let down, starved, threw into cesspits. You not being able to see that shows what a disgusting piece of excrement you really are.. But you keep fighting the good fight for the foetus so they will eventually become human beings and the church might have a whole new set of victims.. I mean followers.
‘Oliver St John Gogarty summed up the situation well in 1928, declaring to the senate: “it is high time that the people of this country find some other way of loving God than by hating women.”’
There is no limit to the vicious cruelty and judgmentalism of the Roman Catholic fundamentalists.
Repeal the eight. Ban the sixth. Fire the forth. Look at the third. Just get on with it either way we’re all still going to have to pay the bills at the end of the month. Ffs.
Pro life parties & independent TDS in Dail? What about pro living POOR children&adults? Homelessness&UNFAIR education at best all their offering the poorest LIVING existing new borns today.
have your say