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THERE IS NO money to be made from clamping, members of the Irish Parking Association said yesterday during a discussion on the regulation of clamping in Ireland.
They were speaking at a meeting headed by Labour TD Ciaran Lynch in which a number of issues were discussed.
The Independent Parking Appeals Officer, Liam Keilthy, also spoke.
The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Leo Varadkar, TD, asked the committee to take a role in the pre-Heads of Bill stage and contribute to the initial drafting of the legislation to regulate the vehicle clamping industry.
The committee put a number of questions to the IPA members.
Keith Gavin of AGK Displays Ltd, who is secretary of the Irish Parking Association, said that the IPA is a voluntary organisation.
He said that members have to adhere to a code of conduct that includes clear signage, resonable release fees and the independent third party appeals process.
Deputy Catherine Murphy said that some clamping “runs people out of a town” and that having different operators in the same location can “cause terrible confusion”.
Gavin said that the idea of having one company operating in one region “would be anti-competitive” and he doesn’t think it is a practical solution.
He said there are less than 10 organisations actively enforcing parking enforcement on private property, and that the three main parking enforcers are members of the IPA. They would be responsible for more than 90 per cent of parking enforcement in the country.
The IPA has put in a private appeals system to give people a second option. Gavin said that there were 300 second appeals last year and 50 per cent were successful.
He added that the IPA could have a bigger role in promoting that appeals service.
Dave Cullen from Euro Car Parks Ltd and a director of the IPA said clamping can cost €100 – €80 plus VAT and that staff do two or sometimes three callouts.
“We don’t make any money out of clamping,” he said. “It’s less than 5 per cent of our turnover.”
Fine Gael TD Noel Coonan said: “I get immediately suspicious when we hear someone saying ‘we make no money doing, it we make no profit’. Why do it – there has to be something in it for you.”
Gavin said that clamping is not a very profitable activity and is a small part of their operations.
We’re talking about a very small scale of operators. It is perceived as hugely prevalent … it’s not really in actual fact. In response to complaints from public we introduced a code of conduct.
Cullen said that their staff aren’t incentivised and that in some cases, such as with Dunnes Stores, all clamping fees go to charity.
Senator Cait Keane asked if there is a grace period before cars are clamped.
Gavin said having a grace period would be difficult. “If a standard grace period of 5 or 10 minutes is applied and everyone is aware of it, it becomes a regime and people use that as part of their entitlement.”
Cullen said the company that hires the clamping company decides if there is any grace period and decides on the rules.
However, Liam Keilthy said there can be a grace period before a clamp is put on a car.
Senator Cait Keane suggested a freephone system for people to contact clampers to get the clamp removed.
Cullen said he wouldn’t have a problem with a freephone number.
Deputy Ciaran Lynch asked about what he called the “urban myths” around clamping, such as the claim that clamping companies are infringing on car owners’ private property rights.
He asked if this has ever been tested in the courts.
He also asked if a person can remove the clamp without doing damage to the clamp and bring it to the clampers’ office, would the person then not have to pay the fine, within the law.
Tom Harrington of the IPA said that the legislation hasn’t been tested in Ireland. It has been tested in England and that individual didn’t win the case because the area had clear and legible signage and it was said the person entered into a contract as they parked on private property, he explained.
He said that there have been occasions where people have cut through clamps with a saw but they have “never been good enough to bring it around to the office”.
Deputy Lynch questioned the IPA members on the operation of a licensing system and whether they welcome a separate regulator or more governed model of self-regulation.
Dave Cullen said they would like the public to know they are reputable and the IPA is in favour of a regulated structure.
Gavin said he believes the IPA does run strong self-regulation at the moment.
For the scale of the industry and amount of people involved self regulation would make most sense in my opinion
Gavin said: “There is no legislation so we put self legislation in place”.
Gavin noted that the appeals process is an independent appeals process and uses the same ombudsman as would be used for the second stage appeals process for on-street enforcement appeals.
Deputy McLoughlin said that some people say clamping operators can be very aggressive.
Noel Coonan TD also addressed the issue of aggression. He asked if employees are vetted and what instructions they are given when they go out clamping.
He asked what the IPA would say to people who could not use the ticket machines at Irish Rail carparks during the winter time as they were frozen, and got clamped.
Cullen said: “Our staff are not vetted – we can’t get garda vetting in a private company.”
Harrington said that during the snow, clamping was banned and patrol officers were deployed to clear paths. He said that if the machines were out of order “we would not clamp” and he would look into the Deputy’s claims
He welcomed staff vetting using the Private Security Authority.
If an operative feels a clamp could be taken off, he can ring a staff supervisor and request this to take place.
Neil Cunningham of the IPA and Apcoa Parking said that it “is a confrontational situation when clamping” and that this “is a big problem with our staff”.
He said there are numerous instances of staff being attacked and assaulted and all staff get training in conflict management.
We are representing the owner of the property to manage that car park on their behalf. We have to deliver good customer service and be as professional as we can.
Dessie Ellis TD asked if the IPA members use photographic evidence.
He was told that pictures are taken and stored to be used in appeals.
Deputy Lynch asked how the voluntary code of conduct is enforced and if anyone was ever found in breach of it and suspended or challenged.
Gavin said that the voluntary code was brought in in response to rogue activity.
He said no member has been expelled from the association “because all of our existing members would adhere to a code of practice”.
If we were getting repeated complaints about operators then we would look into it and then take action. Our whole objective is to improve standards and improve professional standards.
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Never have a pair of hands aged so much in such a short space of time…
@Laura Crowe: lush helping hands hand cream best ever… and no I don’t work for them! Just good quality
@kevinhunt101: what else is inside that manbag of yours?
@Laura Crowe: Washing hands an sanitising are obvious preventatives but the virus is airborne right?
Yep, but now I also use the drying tissue to open the toilet door, in a bid to avoid catching the leftovers of the dirty germ-carriers who didn’t…
@LeoVaradsCar: I’ve been doing that for years! LOL!
@LeoVaradsCar: I do try time it until someone else is finished and I just follow them and let them open the door for me
@LeoVaradsCar: excellent! If everyone on island of Ireland does that. and if this liberal/ economically right wing government in Dublin along with the other SF/DUP lead Irish government in Belfast control the people that are arriving on to the Island of ireland strictly ! We will control dangerous mysterious virus properly ! otherwise people will die unnecessary because hard decisions where not made!
@LeoVaradsCar: I have always done that, and if there is a gap between the cubicle door and the floor I use my foot under the door to open it. When I wash my hands I always use the back of my forearms to push the tap down and I always have tissue’s in my bag to dry my hands with, if I have to use a public toilet.
I was a hospitality manager for 20 years and have always washed my hands properly and up to two inches past my wrist. I always wash my hands before I cook and I always put hot water and Fairy in the kitchen sink, if I’ll be handling raw meat, so that I don’t have to touch the kitchen taps.
It never ceases to amaze me, the amount of people who don’t wash their hands particularly in public toilets, or people who just run their fingers under the tap. People shouldn’t have had to wait for Covid-19 to start washing their hands.
I am shocked to see there is a percentage of people who do not wash their hands
@George Demo: those people probably picked that option to get a reaction
@Brian Hunt: or maybe they have no hands…
@George Demo: it’s a stupid poll
@George Demo: I can’t believe that amount of people who are not following the advice regarding coughing. Yesterday and today I have had people walk by me and without so much as putting their hands over the mouths. Next person who does it, will be sorry. I have asthma and I cannot afford to get this virus.
@Ann Reddin: **have had people walking by me coughing…..
I can never get over those people who don’t wash their hands after going to the toilet.
@Gary Mortimer: was in the pub and sunday and saw 2 men leave without washing their hands. My 5 year old called them out on it and called them stinky
I sing a verse of ” Everybody is Going Kong Flu Fighting” it works a treat
@Galwaygogo: it’s ‘Stand Up and Fight’ for me, 25 seconds and a pep in my step
I have always practiced personal hygiene but I would rather urinate outside (figuratively speaking) than use a public toilet after people that don’t bother washing at all.
It’s disgusting seeing these people walking out, sitting at tables/bar and spreading their germs.
No, because I have always been just short of compulsive about hand washing, not because I am afraid to get my hands dirty, but because I do and have always realised that it’s an obvious chain of transmission, that needs to be broken by hand washing.
It also comes as no surprise to me, that many people either don’t wash their hands properly or don’t wash them full stop…
I got big into hand washing after we got training in work during the SARS epidemic … then over the years I noticed people reverted back to bad habits.
The amount of soap refills needed in work this month, so far, is an eye opener!
Not washing hands PROPERLY could be a death sentence for ill, elderly, disabled person. Just DO IT! But properly and if you are in ‘high risk zone’ i.e. elderly, ill, disabled – self isolate . I’ve set up a STRICT isolation regime.
I would advise everybody to watch last night’s tonight show via the Virgin media tv website. Professor John Crown puts everything in perspective.
@The Risen: Have only watched a clip on twitter in which he basically said Ireland needs to go into an Italian style lockdown now while we still have a managable number of cases. If he means Ireland doing this on its own and not as part of a combined effort with basically every country in the world, then it’s not going to work. It would simply be kicking the can down the road and risking an epidemic later in the year. And the absolute worst case scenario is a Covid-19 epidemic that coincides with flu season. Say we went into lockdown and the UK didn’t. The UK would have their peak in the summer. We would probably have isolated but manageable cases cropping up. But we couldn’t come out of lockdown until the virus was eradicated in the UK. If the UK still had cases at the end of the summer they could depend on herd immunity to keep it manageable. We couldn’t. We’d have no immunity. So how long would we have to stay in lockdown ? There’s no good time for an epidemic as nasty as this, but the least bad time is spring or very early summer.
@The Risen: On the Pat Kenny show on 3rd March, Mary Lou said the following;
‘What we are doing is following the advice from the Chief Medical Officer’ she explained. ‘We are erring on the side of caution. We are being careful, but we are keeping calm.’
McDonald added that following the advice of health experts is key when deciding whether to host the St Patrick’s Day festival this year.
Shinners know bloody everything, so that’s good enough for me.
@Tommy Roche: We won’t Tommy, because the people pulling the strings behind FFG won’t let us.
@The Risen: He’s a thorn in the ass of the medical establishment isn’t he. Not a yes man and never afraid to think outside the box or express contrary and informed opinions. A brilliant physician with global experience during his career.
@The Risen: He is only saying what anyone who understands basic statistics regard as bleedin’ obvious.
@Tommy Roche: Indeed, there is a get it over with element to this as well, and this is the best time to get it. Besides, it’s a cold virus, I’m not sure how successful full lockdowns would be, as in any more effectively that social distancing in the long run. We are going to get it, its a case of mitigating as much as possible and trying to keep numbers down, but the rate of spread is exponential (doubles every x days), so small numbers will get very large (1000 to 1m) in ten cycles, or about 30 days.
Closing things down and sensible people with mitigate that, but the numbers are serious.
I sing a lively version of “ Come out ye black & Tans “…instead of 20 seconds I double up ( for more safety?) & do 2 verses
Have people wash them properly and are they disinfecting common surfaces, like doorknobs, taps toilet flushes
As a person who works outdoors all year in horticulture I’ve always washed hands thoroughly or else dirt would be ingrained in skin.
Dexys Midnight Runners “Come on Eileen” is renamed Covid-19 , Red Fm had it this morning and I can’t stop singing :) Covid-19 , oh you keep your hands clean , try not to sneeze , on aaaannyyyybody … oh Covid-19 and so on and so on .. try singing it , you won’t be able to get it out of your head , your welcome !
This is a virus that can only spread with human contact – stop human contact, stop spread virus – instead mass gathering such as Cheltenham racing allowed to take place in UK where virus is about to explode – it seems they want it to spread by allowing it to spread and not taking adequate action that can slow it down, stop it even if measures strict enough.
No I’ve started wiping my arse with my sleeve.
I work in a hospital, I’ve always practiced what was taught to us regarding handwashing. However I constantly see people come out of public toilets and just wet their fingertips then dry them! These people will now have to up their game.
I was hopeless at washing my hands before…..not anymore!!
Yes washed my hands of Fianna Fail and Fine Gael both the Political arm of the Catholic
Church. Leo and Mohole a pair of Bleepers
@Roger Dawson: FF & FG washed just Mooney…
@Margarita Si Marcel: with dirty hands!!!!
@Roger Dawson: yeah, the political arm of the Catholic Church that introduced abortion and same sex marriage.
Did you ever before washed hands? – Looking in shops – answer is no :))
Some drama for a flu!
@Daithi De Roiste: does it matter what it is called if it has the capacity to completely overwhelm our health services and bankrupt the country? Like it has done in Italy. Is that not a good enough reason to try and prevent it spreading?
@Daithi De Roiste:
Troll alert!
@Daithi De Roiste: A different type of flu though, a variant of the corona virus indeed but one we don’t know when it will slow down, one that is not just seasonal, one that attacks the respiratory system, one that has no vaccine.
Ever since a staunch brexiteer in work said that he sings God save the queen washing his hands, I sing come out you black and tans washing mine.
Nope.
I keep following the guidelines my mother taught me when I was three….
In fact, I must say I always found amusing, since I came to Ireland over 10 yrs ago, to find ‘instructions’ on how wash hands in every public bathroom…. seriosuly, what is that?
@Proudly Italian: It’s great the YOU were taught to do it properly but what good is that when nobody else in your country was? Italy has 167.9 cases / million people while China has only 56! And thanks for spreading it to the whole of Europe and beyond! pft
@Marie Broomfield: Reset your brain and try again please. You can do it.
I not put mine on a short cycle. 30 mins at 60 degrees with a splash of Comfort to give them a spring meadow freshness
Teachers at my kids school here in the US have told the kids to sing the alphabet song while washing their hands
Lather them up better than i used to, having learned that the actual lather breaks down the virus, now i let the water get hot before i start rinsing but i don’t actually wash every individual finger if i havn’t been out and about with other people. Don’t eat any shop bought produce until i get home as wash the hands , fully. eg crisps. we’ll all become germophobes!
I even washed my hands after tapping that voting button.
Just made me think more about what songs last duration of 20 seconds to wash my hands with
I dont have any hands. Feeling stumped as to how best to protect myself.
How do we sanitise the wind?
I’ve always washed my hands but not as if I’m scrubbing in for surgery which is what I’ve been doing since Covid-19 became an issue. My knuckles are actually red and sore now from all the washing.
The lack of proper facilities is a huge issue when out and about, taps with a bare trickle of cold water, empty soap dispensers, manky looking towels to dry your hands. It would also be an idea to have all public toilets have a swing door so you could open it without having to touch the handle as you leave.
Yeah, I wash with mustard now.
Prob not washing hands more than n9rmalor differently but trying tousehand sanitiser before leaving and entering and in car too.
have your say