Diarmaid you are absolutely in no way “all for the tolerance of all religious persuasions”!

How is that Cian?

Dairmaid, I couldn’t help but smile when reading your comment after reading about the numbers outside Leinster house or thinking back on all the protests. Cheers for the laugh!

Ireland definitely isn’t the big catholic country it once was but it still has one of the highest mass attendance in the country, so it wouldn’t be lets say a minority !

Unless the population of my country has gone through the floor to say 100,000 people I am a bit perplexed as to why you’re so amused at my minority statement? Or have anti-choice reverted to their playschool argument. Our protest is bigger than yours na na na na na!

@James can you read what I actually said for crying out loud!!!!

WOW!
This issue really brings out the nutters.
I admire your tolerance but I’m sick to the back teeth of these idiots.
Absolute, in your face, nutters.

@James Attendance at mass is plummeting, and in any case is no indication of personal belief, if belief is measured by adherence to the teaching of the church.

Do you seriously believe that all those attending mass are anti-contraception, have never had sex outside marriage and don’t approve of divorce? Or that women who have had, and do not regret, abortion never attend mass? Or that they all agree with the church stance on celibacy or on women clergy? Or that they all believe that religion has a role to play in politics.

If you do, you are deluded.

Lots of people who are nominally catholic (and I’m not one) no longer buy in lock, stock and barrel to the whole package, they pick what they believe in and what they adhere to. If the church were to ban all those who disagreed with them on any teaching, the churches would be very empty indeed.

Cathloism views against abortion is relatively recent only happening 150 years ago because the Pope at the time was afraid he would loose the Vatican to Italian Nationalists… The Popes views were for political reasons not religious reasons… Other things Pope Pius IX did that year was to confine Jews into Gettos in Rome. He affirmed that it was not against divine law for a slave to be sold, bought or exchanged

For 300 years before Abortion was allowed until the ‘Quickening’ as stated by St Augstine…

As a true Conservative Catholic I don’t understand these Neo Catholic views… Are they say St Augstine(i.e. a Super Saint) and St Thomas of Aquanis are wrong and were preaching something against God.

I just love the way Diarmuid Twomey’s comments are being misconstrued by the Irish religious extremists. He said that he was tolerant of all religions and races, and then correctly states that people that regularly use Rosary beads in Ireland are in the minority.

Religion. Such a pity that science and ‘pesky’ hard facts seem to always get in the way of an otherwise great yarn.

Agreed. Like many Jewish people, more and more Irish people are more ‘culturally Catholic’ than religious Catholics. Which is good.

they say satan will have his day only for a short time

@Jim
wasn’t that Andy Warhol that said that?!!?

depends a bit where u live – Dublin – or main cities eg Cork Limerick or rural Ireland ??.
But it is really sad to think so many still believe that BS – and to see young people paring at LH gates – who indoctrinated these unfortunates – for indoctrinated with utter BS thay have been .

”Are you honestly telling me there is more that 2,000,000 in Ireland who use rosary beads?”
Probably not – but its the mentality – the fact that these people think that praying is a useful occupation – while in fact it is a waste of time .

Katie love I didn’t say anything about the Luke warm Catholics at all !! I just stated that Ireland has a high mass attendance and in fact its up this year by 3 percent since 2010 this might not seem much but it is a pretty high percentage !

@ James, how do they actually measure Mass attendance? Last time I checked you didn’t need to sign in?

Is there a Catholic Church Hot 100 Chart mapping which parish has the best attendance, most awesome choir, largest ‘after communion retention rate’ and most riveting sermons?

Fire on a few links there.

They say Father Clippit does a good long mass. Three hours he does, on a good night. Since his stroke. That’s value for money!

James, that is not what you said exactly – here’s your comment in case you have forgotten.
“Ireland definitely isn’t the big catholic country it once was but it still has one of the highest mass attendance in the country, so it wouldn’t be lets say a minority !”

Take a look at this Irish Times poll from 2012.
“When it comes to Mass attendance, the poll found 34 per cent of Irish Catholics did so on a weekly basis, with 16 per cent “rarely/never” attending.”
34% of people who recognise themselves as Catholics attend Mass. I would call that a minority against the 66% who are not attending Mass.
However if Mass attendance is up, then I wouldn’t dispute that part of your comment at all.

Source: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/catholics-beliefs-not-always-by-the-book-1.558571

Don’t wate your time arguing with these folk dirmud the church is dying lowest attendees on record no priests coming threw the seminary’s corruption and child abuse at all levels of the Vatican best just ignore this dying minority!!

Padraic, parishes are selected around the country and monitored, of course it would be extremely hard to get an exact figure of the over all scheme of things ! Mass attendance is of course high in most rural parts of the country

@ James – So where did the 3% figure come from then James? I would like to see some evidence of this. You may have to rely on faith to justify God’s existence, but surely some hard evidence can be provided to back up your statement of a 3% rise.

Or was the 3% figure an apparition?

James thanks for saying the one comment that always puzzles me so in rural parts of the country attendance is higher! So where there is less people there is more people?? I’m my opinion in rural parts of the country pub attendance is high in comparison to church attendance should we get the publicans view on abortions??

Looks like they are low teens % and with plenty of free time on their hands(knees).

Mohamad what are you trying to say ???

Padraic I appreciate I haven’t shown the link let but I will when I get on my computer !

I’m reminded of that quote “Christianity…the belief that some cosmic Jewish zombie will grant you immortality, if you ‘symbolically’ eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can rid an evil imbedded in mans soul because some rib woman was tricked into eating a magic apple by a talking snake…yeah makes perfect sense”

The Polish that live in Ireland are keeping the numbers up,as of now they have’nt had they same scandals as the Irish church.Also with pope J.P up for sainthood you can only see there numbers rise.lets not forget its not just Irish catholics atteneding these rallys.Even our protestants brethren up North are joining in,

Never mind James I did not expect you to get it!

Noooo the definition of Christianity.

One woman’s lie about an affair that got dangerously out of hand

American religious extremists. butting into Irish affairs

Hard evidence does not concern people who believe there is a magic man in the sky who created only 2 people, who then had kids, who then committed incest, and it all happened only 3000 years ago and space or dinosaurs are made up by non believers.

never mind anyway mohamad, your in a catholic country as it stands :)

Look at that chalice work!

that ll help them keep cool in the heat lol

I’m not anti-abortion, but nor am I endeared with so-called impartial reporting. They’re not rosary chants, they’re prayers. In any future articles would you have the balls to refer to the Muslim prayers as chants? – I think not for fear of being branded by the PC brigade.

You guys going to be “chanting” all month too?

Have you heard of Spiritual Warfare

Silly anomaly really Stephen. Stealing involves a criminal and a victim. There is no victim in an abortion. In fact, forcing a woman or child (often one who has been raped or the victim of incest) is placing further distress on a victim of heinous crime.

Sense and reason in one sentence. If you don’t agree abstain. I don’t agree with people making a show of themselves on their knees outside the Dail but i respect their right to do so.

“There is no victim in an abortion”

Not even this guy? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/7646540/Baby-boy-survives-for-nearly-two-days-after-abortion.html

There is no victim in an abortion?? Is that not at the heart of the debate? As far as I am concerned there is a victim and in some cases there are two..

In curious as to the rationale of the people who down voted my comment there. Are you all saying post-birth abortion should be permissible?

Well done Chuck, you trawled the internet and came across one case three years old. This was clearly bad medical practice and the article clearly states so. This would not happen under clear abortion legislation which is carried out according to guidelines.

No-one is “sent” to the UK. If someone chooses to go then that’s up to them. Do you understand the difference between choice and being forced to do something?

The UK’s stance on abortion is ridiculously self-delusional. There is no legal right to “choose abortion”. Every abortion must be certified by two doctors as being necessary to preserve the health of the mother. Her opinion is officially irrelevant. Of course, that’s not how it works. Doctors pre-sign forms and over 90% of Down Syndrome babies are “terminated”. But of course, that’s necessary to preserve the health of the mother, right? And that’s the lie that UK abortions are based on

So if nobody is being sent to Britain, why do you object to total strangers choice of having it done here? I think you should go back to your rosary freak

…….what??

Also, note to everyone who says all the aggression is on the anti-abortion side; more needless name-calling here

It’s a women’s health and women’s rights issue Peter. You can and should have an opinion, just keep it to yourself when it doesn’t concern you. Unless you plan on being pregnant at some stage…

By that logic adults shouldn’t protest when cuts happen to children’s services, or what about cuts to special needs, unaffected people should keep out of that. What about breast cancer cut backs, men must keep away by your warped logic.

Abortion kills male and female, mothers, fathers are affected by abortion. Would you dare say to Praveen H that his opinions are unwarranted as he’s male.

Please stop the stupid opinion that abortion is a female only issue.

Fundamentally this is a woman issue and I don’t think this does effect the old men who are standing outside the Dail!

There not all old men, I passed the gate myself this morning and was surprised to see so many young people.. Just saying

Wrong. Fundamentally, this is an issue for the entire human race.. Also I assume the so-called feminists that support abortion also support abortions being carried out on the basis that the child is female. Silly question, if course they do. How can they not?

Peter, do you know yours?

Until you have a womb and possess the biological capacity to give birth-it IS a female only issue.

Omg, Stephen. I think I feel sick after reading your comment. Ugh!

Stephen. For that comment you get a logical fallacy card: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

you get 3 in a row and you’re sitting in the logical fallacy corner………of a round room!

Men can care – but it’s far easier to say that women’s lives should be “balanced” with that of a foetus if you’ll never been the one denied life saving care.

Ultimately abortion is a female-only issue because the consequences of going through it are so overwhelmingly stacked against women. Even the safest of pregnancies is riddled with things most men wouldn’t ever want to go through, and some men want to force women to this? Because they have a belief that a zygote is a human being?

We men can be loving partners, fathers, friends and provide advice, support (emotional, financial, whatever), but ultimately it is the woman’s decision. And if you can’t understand why this is this way, you have already excluded yourself from any rational debate on the issue.

Emilio, I think that’s the most rational well balanced, not shouting abuse at the other side comment Ive read since this whole debate started. Nicely done!

Well as a man and a father and someone who has held the body of his baby that passed away at 16 weeks gestation and was able to see his face, arms, legs, fingers and fingernails I can tell you that a man can be every bit as connected to his child. To tell a father to keep his opinions to himself in relation to whether his child lives or dies is sickening. You say you want an open debate but only with people who share your opinion. For the record I would support termination that is required to protect the mothers life or in the case of fatal abnormalities but this opinion that it’s just a bunch of cells that are being destroyed is just wrong.

Depends on your definiton of bunch of cells

Peter, if the man disagrees with the woman regarding having an abortion, nobody is saying he cannot have an opinion. And whether or not his opinion actually matters will be something for the pregnant woman to decide. Their relationship is theirs and how they make decisions in it is for them to decide, not you.

By the way, what if the man wants an abortion but the woman doesn’t? Whose opinion matters then?

Emilio, yes, but they make their decision within a framework set by society and I believe every citizen is entitled to an opinion on the laws of the society in which they live. That was my objection to the assertion that men should not have an opinion on this issue or that their opinion should not count.

As stated in previous comments, by that logic a person who does not have children should be told they are not entitled to an opinion on children’s rights or someone who is not disabled for example should not campaign for disabled services etc etc.

I’ve asked this before but never got an answer;

If men aren’t allowed to have an opinion then why are post-menopausal or infertile women any different? Shouldn’t women be obliged to disclose the results of a fertility test so that we know whether or not their opinion matters? I demand to be informed

Everyone is entiled to an opinion. Even if I agree that a woman should have the right to choose what happens to her own body – there is no such thing as a women-only issue. What is missing from this debate is the respect, dignity and sensitivity that also forms part of any rational discussion.

I agree until the child in question had my blood too

But you won’t have a real and substantial risk to your life. Frankly, it’d be a form of abuse if a partner could tell his wife with cancer that he was vetoing her abortion to have chemo.

My comment was solely in the thinking of someone not wanting to have a baby, if the mother was in serious danger and I still opposed, then my my life should be the one questioned

Not giving me a lot to go on Mary. My point is that so-called feminists by arguing that people have a right to choose they are defending those that seek abortions on the basis of gender. Some defenders of women’s rights.

To all the freaks and nutters You had a choice in referenda on two occasions unless you abhor the democratic will of a nation TWICE??

Help! Can anyone enlighten me as to what Stephen is on about… or what he’s on?

Gender as grounds for abortion is illegal in most countries. Even India which still has a huge problem with the dowry system has made gender selection by abortion illegal. Please educate yourself before spouting out this nonsensical drivel.

Goodness, its like try to explain something to a brick.. Pro-abortionists or so-called pro-choice people claim that every woman should have the right to decided whether to give birth or not. My point is, by adopting this unqualified position they are supporting women that decide that they want a male and they are supporting her right to have the baby aborted on the grounds that its a female. That’s my point and that only my point. Take a wee bit of time to think about it or find somebody in the house that has time to explain it further to you. Do-oooh.

As Clare Daly said, every reason for an abortion is valid

Exactly. That’s the very point I am making and which was so sadly lost on Mary K.

Chuck / Stephen, maybe mind your own business and stop obsessing about what women you’ll never meet may or may not want to do with their own bodies, privately. It’s kind of creepy.

Ah now I understand, Stephen Duffy. Like Mr Butterbur in LOTR I can see through a brick walk in time!
So you’re saying that if I support abortion in very limited circumstances then I support abortion of female foetuses. I didn’t understand your exceedingly warped premise till it was spelled out for me.
Well now, Stephen, if I’m to use your rationale, if you support either the Catholic or Protestant church you must then support the abuse that the clergy have perpetrated on defenceless children. So you see now how your argument works – or rather doesn’t? You see, Stephen you really can’t have it both ways.

Mary I think you reasoning Is slightly off, you equating support for the church with support for acts against children, two very different items. It’s like saying that if you eat meat you support the drowning of kittens in a river, as in both cases animals are killed. Flawed logic.

While you mightn’t agree with Stephan’s logic you can’t say its not accurate. If you support the abortion of a viable unhindered baby than you offer support to every form of abortion of a viable baby, for gender grounds as suggested or any/all grounds.

Eric. Don’t think there’s anything wrong with my logic. Stephen’s argument is that if I support abortion then I must support gender selection through abortion.
My counter to this is that if he supports the Catholic/Protestant church then he must support the child abuse carried out by the clergy.
I think I can support abortion in limited circumstances while abhorring gender selection just as Stephen can support a church while abhorring clerical child abuse.
Or is Stephen’s logic a one-way street?

Well Susan a “bunch of cells” as you put it, are actually not just a group of cells but actually make up tissues, the tissues in turn make up organs and the organs make up the body ! Therefore a human being !

Or are we back to the days where C-sections are considered bad because they put an upper limit on how many children a woman can have? Are episiotimies the right choice according to them?

I’m curious about how to interpret it if, after all the decades of the rosary, the Bill is passed. Will it mean that:
a) the Bill must be the will of God?;
or
b) prayers don’t work?

I’d stick with “even God doesn’t take Youth Defence seriously.”

You are showing your ignorance

Complete gibberish Alan. So if someone haves a go off gay people then they’re not really offending them – merely gay people are choosing to be offended?!

People generally get offended when they or their beliefs are being mocked

It’s not difficult to at least have the common courtesy to allow people to have their beliefs without making fun of them or belittling them

David if people get offended by perfectly reasonable questions and valid observations then they should perhaps start asking questions themselves about sky fairies , flying horses and moving statues.

Enola – gay people do not have a choice in being gayor not. You have a choice in being catholic or not.

If ou choose to be catholic then be prepared for thise beliefs to be criticised and ridiculed.

If you are if strong enough conviction you will be able to put forward a counter argument. If you cannot then you should question those beliefs.

That is hilarious David in fairness. This religion teaches bigotry and intolerance, but I’m expected to be a bit more sensitive to their feelings while they do all of this?!

Ah Joe – respectful as always Insee. Can you not engage in reasoned debate without coming across as a disrespectful ignoramus?

Alan, my friend, I have no need to “question my beliefs”. What I am asking formula some respect and courtesy. Not the childish responses that people like you post.

But I won’t hold my breath.

Enola – on what grounds should your beliefs be respected?

Why not make fun of them, David? If someone’s convictions of a complete disbelief in a deity are so strong, then why not be consistent in your disbelief by mocking the believers? After all, the onus is on the believers to prove that their deity does, indeed, exist.

Alan, I try, at all times, in as much as possible, to respect the beliefs/lack thereof of others. By common courtesy if nothing else.

I have very strong beliefs. They are unshakable to be honest. I can appreciate that someone like you could have an issue with this, and, indeed you get very angry about it.

I, on the other hand, do not. I wonder why……..God bless. ;)

Enola – No evidence exists that a God exists. Stop offending science.

@Enola, wow, you have some chip on your shoulder Enola, must be a full on 2 tonne block at this stage.

Lol! Is this the same science that has us believe that there was nothing. Then there was everything – and nobody did it?! And how do religious scientists factor into your outlook?!

Ah, Yet Man. Welcome back buddy! Lols like you’re carrying a whole house on yours! :D

As opposed to the religious thinking that states everything needs a creator but such logic does not apply to the creator itself. Very logical indeed.

Science, it *works*, bitches.

@Enola, don’t really understand science do you mate. Well, there’s no point trying to explain it to you. You probably wouldn’t get it. Great come back. Use the exact same retort as I. So quick witted.