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THERE HAS BEEN condemnation following the death of a man described as one of the most senior figures in organised crime in Ireland earlier today.
Eamon Kelly, 65, was shot as he was walking on Furry Park Road in Killester, near Clontarf shortly after 4pm this evening before he later died in hospital.
A man in his 30s was arrested at the scene and remains in garda custody tonight, a garda spokesperson has said.
Gardaí also say that they would particularly like to talk to anyone who was in the Furry Park Road area between 2pm and 4.30pm this afternoon.
A black Lexus car with a registration 96-D-27994 was found partially burnt out at Stiles Court in Clontarf, which is a cul de sac at the rear of Clontarf Cricket/Rugby Club.
They would like to talk to anyone who may have noticed this car in Killester, on the Howth Road or at Castle Avenue and the surrounding areas today, urging people to contact them on 01 666 4800.
The shooting was condemned by Dublin Bay North TD Aodhán Ó Ríordáin who said on Twitter that he was “disgusted by today’s fatal shooting in Killester”.
“There can never be any justification for such a disgusting action,” he said.
The death of Kelly is likely linked to tension between a number of criminal gangs in the Dublin city with investigators probing one possible line of inquiry that this shooting is linked to the murder of Alan Ryan in September, RTÉ’s Paul Reynolds reported this evening.
Kelly had several previous criminal convictions including for trafficking cocaine in the 1990s.
He was also involved in some of the biggest bank heists in the 1990s and was sentenced to 14 years in prison in 1993 after being caught with cocaine with an estimated street value of €500,000.
In a profile by the Sunday World newspaper, Kelly was said to have acted as a mentor to Eamon Dunne aka ‘The Don’ who was shot dead at the Fassaugh House pub in Cabra in April 2010.
Kelly himself was subject to a previous attempt on his life just months after Dunne’s death when he was targeted on the same road where he was fatally shot today.
In that incident in September 2010 Kelly had a gun pointed at his head but the weapon jammed and the panicked gunman ran away.
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Shocked at the No votes – would have thought that this was a foregone conclusion.
Densie I’ve noticed this over all the religious debates on here, there’s a silent majority that never comment but will always vote the way of the church. It’s quite a strange one because they don’t even dislikes the comments or anything, just vote in the poll.
Remove Celibacy and all the other barbaric practices associated with some religions such as Circumcision and female mutilation. Most religions seem to have an unhealthy interest in matters of bodily function !
Not shocked at all unfortunately. In the past however, I have been genuinely shocked at some of my peers ultra conservative views on topics such as religion and abortion etc. Young people. Educated. I’m not shocked at all anymore. Inherited views and opinions from their families I imagine. Physical repression of natural bodily urges can cause mental anguish and other problems.
Me too Denise.
Nothing good can ever come from the suppression of natural, visceral sexual urges. Celibacy is flying in the face of nature and nature will always win. I know there have been some incidences of child sex abuse in non-celibate religious counterparts but not to the degree it has happened in the RCC.
AA, I too am shocked at some of the attitudes of people of my own generation – also seemingly intelligent and educated people. When it comes to religion it’s like they haven’t really thought about it at all and just become sheeple.
The results of polls on this site always seem to be at total variance to the comments.
Sorry Denise, I know it’s off topic but child sex abuse is not just the reserve the RCC. Fact, 96% of child abuse takes place in the broader community. Maybe we should make all males celibate!
The C of I has a married clergy and are also finding it difficult to fill vacant parishes.
For the record I have no issue around Catholic priests being allowed to marry.
Haha ‘Sheeple’, Denise wins my word of the day.
Denise use facts instead of bigotry, most abuse takes place within family, FACT, lets have a genuine discussion on topic.
Yes I’ve noticed that. I’d say if The Journal tracked the isp addresses of the voters they would discover regular shenigans.
@ John Campbell – I know that the majority of child sex abuse takes place within families and the wider community. I did not say anywhere that the church was responsible for the majority.
But I was referring to the cases that have happened in the church and the difference in numbers between the RCC and other religious, for instance Church of England. Seeing as we’re talking about celibacy in the RCC… I have always wondered if the celibacy rule had anything to do with a larger rate of sex abuse in the RCC.
Who in there right mind would bite no. Crazy fools
If tou check these polls, the majority always say no to every question.
The CoE keep it under raps. Many of their clergy are rampantly gay.
Simple answer to your wonderment Denise is mathematics.
Brian, you say that like it’s an insult.
I think there’s a strong argument for ensuring that these people don’t breed.
John, Denise and bigjake, when you’re doing your maths, make sure you take into account the total numbers of catholic clergy vs the population of the wider community and the amount of time potential victims spend in the company of catholic clergy as opposed to the wider community. You’ll get more accurate results this way.
thejournal.ie in anti-Catholic shit stirrer shocker!
Why is it always those outside the bosom of the Church who seek to change it?
I voted “don’t know” – because I really don’t. Having a married priest would bring him more in touch with marital issues, it would most likely boost the numbers considering a vocation. On the other hand – “behind every successful man is a strong woman” – (this WILL be taken up the wrong way I’m sure), but spouses DO have influence over the actions of their partners – we’ve seen it time and time again with politicians & evangelists…or will the “b!tchiness” from the “tennis club” overflow and effect a particular church – it would no longer be just the priest representing, but a couple. Then there’s the issue of wayward kids – yep, everybody has issues with their kids from time to time, but it brings a whole new set of potential issues to the RC. I don’t think the argument is as simple as “it’s the most natural thing”, I for one could not live a celibate life, but there’s more to consider than that.
Why are liberals so obsessed with sex?
The CoE keep it under raps. Many of their clergy are rampantly gay.
I voted No… I think the Catholic Church should stick to their guns, but I think the people of Ireland should turn our backs on their destructive, abusive and worthless institution. We need a full separation of church and state to even begin to have real democracy.
@Al Doyle Eh, just FYI: Catholics make up a sizeable percentage of the “people of Ireland”. And btw, separation of church and state is a two-way street. So kindly piss off with your opinions on internal church affairs.
They’re brainwashed, Denise. It takes an awful lot of research, reading and thinking, and then courage, to question and finally to decide that this Catholic religion may not be the right answer. A lor of people just take the whole thing “on faith”., as indeed they’re told to!
I think you’ll find there are plenty inside the church who are crying out for change and not just the ordinary “footsoldiers”, Stephen O’Reilly!
Stephen O’Reilly; why is the Catholic Church so obsesed with sex? Sex before marriage or outside of it is a sin, contraception is a sin, homosexuality is a sin, child sex abuse – no let’s call it what it is, paedophilia – is a sin. The first three have been thundered against from the pulpit, but paedophilia carried out by priests has been hushed up and dealt with in a totally ineffective way by the church until relatively recently.
Why are conservatives even more obsessed with sex?
Brian, how do you know this about the Protestant clergy? Unless you can back this up with some proper research, you should withdraw it.
Especially the female body, David. We are disgusting creatures after all.
The Church would not be on the edge of collapse if this man made rule was thrown out decades ago. At this stage they are finished in Ireland in any meaningful way.
Steven, separation of church and state is NOT a two-way street. It’s the state telling the church to butt out of its affairs. End of. The church does not have a say in that.
Since when is celibacy a barbaric practice? Get a grip on yourself.
it is not yes or no. There are models available/ Optional celibacy or marriage before diaconate ordination in the Orthodox Church. Bishops chosen from the celibate monks. Religious orders and communities in the West could be set up for those choosing celibacy and community life- two separate but interdependent vocations or calls.. Many have no idea what is involved on the purely practical level, the salary to support a married priest and his family, also employment for his wife and decent schools for their children. In the USA no small village can support a tiny congregation with a married fulltime minister. There is a value in celibacy, sex cures no problems for married clergy or rabbis just as married women and men can stray. This question cannot be settled by Opinion Polls. People in western nations can drive on good roads for Mass as can priests, mission countries have no such luxuries and a local married priest could serve their needs in rural areas whereas a more educated clergy may be needed for urban and more sophisticated congregations
Ausling, I did not say Celibacy was barbaric. It is unnatural but genital mutilation most certainly is barbaric and is commonly practiced on people who do not have a say in the matter.
@ Denise.. Shocked .. Yes..
they are silent because they get bashed left right and center for having any religious views.
I voted No, but only because I want the church to become entrenched in it’s own silly ideas and die out from people being disillusioned with them. I don’t want a reformed church, I want a free thinking irreligious society without a crutch in the form of iron age ideas.
I had a feeling there was a few votes like yours in there Eoin….a little disingenuous don’t you think? To complain about the church and then push back on any attempts within it to move forward.
@Steven O’Reilly I would think that thoughtful Catholics, whose religion is about spirituality rather than politics, would see the benefits of separation of church and state too, it would depoliticise their faith. Anyhows, of course, it’s not a two-way street, any more than any overthrowing of a dictatorship is.
Me too Denise, Granted when it was the old way I could see where they were coming from but since Benedict allowed married Anglican priests to move over to the Roman Catholic Church, what’s the big deal. I think its now unfair to the majority of the current priests to watch a portion of their ‘brothers’ have wives and children.
Actually the possibility of change came from the Pope’s second in command – hardly “outside the bosom of the Church”.
Why are Roman Catholics so obsessed with the sex lives of others?
John Campbell, that makes 4% of abuse is by clergy, but clergy make up far less than 4% of the adult population. In fact they make up more like 0.001%. Can you see that 4% is wildly disproportionate?
A married couple, with kids taking marital or counselling advice from a single man with no kids? Is a strange carry on, but nothing about religion surprises me and the brain dead zombies who follow it!
Why bother. They seem to fit in more riding than the average Joe.
Denise I wonder if you have read anything by Newman or Chesterton or CS Lewis (other than Narnia)? You don’t have to be sheeple to have faith and faith does not need to be unthinking.
Actually Jane it is a two way street. The fundamental principle of secularism is that Churches have no right to dictate to the State and the State has no right to dictate to Churches.
That is a very good point Steven- the separation of Church and State IS a two way street. Yet ,for the most part you see people of faith and religious belief who make up a sizeable percentage of the population of this country having their freedom of religious expression constantly being infringed, eroded and disregarded more and more so as time goes by.
Actually Anne, Anglican clergy who converted and were ordained in the Catholic Church were allowed to remain married long before Pope Benedict. It had been the practice for ages. It only hit the headlines when sections of the Anglican Church got fed up with the business of having women clergy and decided to join the one True Church.
@sandra, actually I’d find that if the journal were to track all the ISP addresses they would find that all the yes voters are non-Christians or atheist.
Me too!
@Peter O’Brien Can you give one example of anyone of religeous belief in this country being denied the right to worship?
Could you sound more pompous and up your own backside?
@Stephen Mc Elligott, quite impossible seeing as such a large percentage of nonreligious / agnostic / atheists would be still classed as Roman Catholics, as it is not easy to have one’s name removed from the register anymore.
Also false, I know many Catholics who believe priests should be allowed to marry and have a family.
Brain dead people that follow it ? That statement is obviously from a brain dead person firstly I myself am catholic I do practice I am married and work in healthcare so NO I’m not “brain dead” neither is the many millions of Catholics across the world so please think yourself before you label other people BRAINDEAD…
I voted yes Stephen and I aint an atheist and I am a christian. Shock horror! Most Christians can actually think for themselves you know. We dont have to do as Rome says – the Vatican does not have a monopoly on Christs teachings!
Me too, Denise.
Unbelievable. Some
sort of fundamentalist flashmob?
Are u making a connection between being gay and child abuse??
Why is it those outside the church have to pay for the crimes of the church?
@ Steven O’Reilly
Why do those outside of the church have to pay for the crimes of the church? I wholeheartedly think that the survivors of abuse/ reap/ molestation/ enslavement inflicted upon them by the catholic church deserve to be and should be compensated for the horrors they suffered, but I never reaped or made a slave of any human being. Why should I or any other person have to pay for crimes we didn’t commit????
What was it Minister Shatter said a week or two ago, 40-58 million euros this year alone in relation to the Magdalene compensation to be paid by the Irish taxpayer…
celibacy is not barbaric and circumcision and female genital mutilation are not practices of the Catholic Church so should not come into this argument.
“Chastity is no more a virtue than malnutrition” ~ Alexander Comfort
Jesus was King of the Jews ;
Is the Jewish religion the one true church brian?
Yes it should be removed, but wont make a difference,abusive priests dont abuse because they cant get married. Thats rubbish. What needs to be done is vetting, evaluations of people all people who are going to be priests and around kids.Those people joined priest hood to get at children.
AA – people are entitled to their opinions. Just because they are different to yours doesn’t mean they are wrong or ignorant.
It would cost a fortune though – no contraception=loads of kids.
I don’t think Celibacy is the cause of child abuse. IMO it’s more that the priesthood was attractive to paedophiles, pedrophiles and others looking to opt out of normal society.
I was shocked too, by the amount of ‘no’ votes. But, I wonder if it’s an improvement on 10 years ago? If you go back far enough, you’ll find that 100% of Irish folks believed a priest should only be married to ‘god’.
As an atheist, there is a case for keeping the celibacy bullsh*t. This rule has caused the number of young men joining seminaries to plummet.
On the other hand, and more importantly, allowing priests to to do what comes natural, and marry and have children, should help with the problem of rampant paedophilia in the church.
Isn’t it funny, that a married couple can ask a celibate man for marriage advice, or help in raising children. May as well ask the cat.
Maria wrote: ” IMO it’s more that the priesthood was attractive to paedophiles, pedrophiles ”
You’re correct! The best part about the priesthood, (Roman Catholicism), is that, if the paedophile gets caught, no matter how depraved, sick and twisted he is, his ‘boss’ will just move him to another parish. No cops, no courts, no jail, not even a dirty look. Just a letter to say you have been invited to another ‘guest-house’, where lots of new young boys abound.
The power of indoctrination (brainwashing) is most apparent, when listening to a follower defend the actions of the bishop/ priest/ cardinal/ emperor, uh sorry, I meant pope.
Dermot. According to the gospel, Jesus was never King of the Jews. The people wanted to give him the kingship but he refused it. The sign on the cross was irony on the part of the Romans.
Well Kenny, I as a practicing Catholic notice more and more what is an increasingly disturbing and uncomfortable atmosphere of hostility and intolerance is being purposefully generated in this country, particularly by the media, towards the Church and its members. Ireland is now recognised as being among the most anti-Catholic and anti-religous countries in the world. That, I believe, amounts to denial of the right to worship.
Matt,
The same could be said for Permanent Deacon’s and for Vicar’s the deacon in my parish is married wit a family, they are the same as any family, great couple, great family but, they have their problems too, just like anyone else, it is called being human and if a priest was married him and his wife would be just like our parents, our Deacon and his wife, like any normal couple because they are just that, normal it is the Pope who is not normal and I thought Pope Benedict XVI was bad, this fella is as bad with the book writing but, he keeps making saints but, we don’t need them and te things we do need, he turns his back!!!!! what sense does that make?
There is a thing called natural contraception and respect in that way it is just self indulgence with no respect in other words just getting rid of a sexual urge, no love, no respect just lust.
Others on here claimed celibacy is barbaric (it certainly seems to be a widespread belief here) – and certainly I agree about genital mutilation being barbaric and savage and any other horrid word you can call it.
But, why should you have to “Choose” what you want in lifde like that? This is the rest of your life to think of, you can’t think (shall I or shall I not become a priest because, if I do, I can’t get married?)Why is it such a problem amyway? There are clergy all over parts of the world who are married, I am a Catholic, I was baptised when I was a baby so, I had no say in the matter, but, I really don’t know what the problem is with regards to priests, nuns, monks whoever, why oh! why can’t they marry ( if they so wish) I honestly don’t know wha the problem is, even if there was no problem with this child sex abuse thing, I still don’t know what the Cathoklic church’s problem is with it, if permanent deacon’ want to marry and Vicars want to marry, they just get married so why not Catholic priests?
It even makes me laugh when a church is to be concercrated, they have a Bishop, to hear confession a deacon can hear a confession but has no power to give absolution or a Eucharistic Minister, they have no power to bless why? If a priest, bishop pope or whoever can who says ordinary people can’t….who do the hiegher archy think they are, they really do think they are above but in fact with all the scandal, they actually could not be lower.
For the first thousand years of the Catholic Church priests were often married and celibacy was optional and usually only practiced by ascetics. It was in the 12th century that celibacy was imposed as a rule and the false notion that the early Apostles were celibate and therefore all priests should be was introduced. It was a way for the Chuch to hold on to its wealth and not have houses going to priests and bishops wives and families. The right way for the Church to be ran is by a married priesthood like it was in the early days of Christianity.
Agreed Patrick… the RCC is a bastardized version of Christianity and many of its teachings and traditions are plain wrong.
For the RCC to have appeal to the younger Irish generation (25 to 45 age bracket) it would want to re-examine what traditions and teachings it offers. Funnily enough, if the RCC were to become a more pure Christian church it would attract alot more to it’s church in my opinion.
many of its teachings and traditions are plain wrong.
Steven, you are talking about a man made religion and a man made god.
Jesus Paul John were celibate. There is no evidence the apostles were married, except Peter had a mother in law. St Paul said he renounced having a sister-wife as the other apostles had, referring to the women who accompanied Jesus and the apostles who were not their wives as Peter asked Jesus what about us who have left all to follow you. Monastic life, hermit and community existed since the beginning. I t is not as simplistic as you posit here PH.
Moulding God to fit what they want seems to be exactly what the Catholic Church does! So many of the rules come from the Vatican, not from “sacred scriptures”.
From the cultural and religious context of the time ie first century Palestine, it is inconceivable that some or most of the Apostles were not married. Peter definetly was. Jesus was about 30 when he began his public ministery, the Apostles were likely a simillar age if not older. It would be very unusual for them not to be married at that age in that time. The New testament is quite supportive of the notion of a married Priesthood. Note 1 Timothy chapter 3 for example where it says that both Bishops and Deacons should be married. In fact I would go as far as to say that Christ himself possibly was married. the Whole celebacy rule came in much later and is not compatable with true Biblical Christianity rooted in Judaism where marriage is very important.
Would tat include Pope Francis pretending he never knew about the organised Gay Prostitution at the Vatican, do you mean that as well!!
Oh definately.. Remove celibacy and i think you will have more vocations and less leaving the priesthood.. It must be a lonely life sometimes..
The reason for celibacy is not spiritual but as usual boils down to money. The church having to fork out for spouses and children aint gonna happen…
Thankfully, we’ve arrived at a point where most of us don’t give a sh1t.
Griska some do, look at the poll.
That poll is skewed as are the votes for the comments. Just look down at the newer comments. There are people sitting there with their red thrumbs ready for anything criticising the church.
If it stops them from being perverts and abusers, then yes.
I don’t believe celibacy is a reason for abuse and there is no more abusers in the church than in any other walk of life those who abuse are manipulators and manipulated and sought out a system that would hide and protect them because of its lack of understanding of sexualité and the real harm that is caused by abuse
Yea except imagine all these sexual offenders under the same banner protecting each other. Dangerous situation to be in.
I’m a bit uncomfortable with the idea that celibacy turns you into a paedophile, because it’s a bit too close to the idea there’s a paedophile in all of us, and I just don’t believe that. I do think it would make it harder for them to fly under the radar, however, and that can only be a good thing.
I do, celibacy is unnatural. And as a result of doing something that is sexually unnatural, these priests carry out acts of perversion.
Not all priest are paedophiles, so that’s kind of a moot point.
Karl: Are you trying to link celibacy with paedophilia?
Not that easy now, Nick, with the existing guidelines on child protection. I have two girls who are altar servers and, under no circumstances, can they be alone in the sacristy unless there are two parents present. This is very strictly implemented.
The celibacy = abuse argument is a nonsense.
The reason for paedophiles in the priesthood is that they have found a way to get into a position of authority with access to children, they put themselves in historically the last place you’d look, hence the public mistrust around the issue.
Swimming coaches have a high percentage of paedophiles too are they all required to be celibate?
The celibacy issue from a spiritual perspective is about denying human base urges and struggling with that as a means to remove oneself or separate oneself from the the everyday distractions in life to focus on serving the community of the said church.
The other side to it is that the church do not have to deal with inheritance issues around property and the priests are presumed that the family of the church is whom they are being fathers to.
Karl Waters, if you go through a dry patch in relation to sexual activity for time , do you tend toward paedophilia? I don’t think so, so get a clue.
Kevin ;the term is Ring ; One ring to bind them all!
If people just stopped giving them money they would go away.
Unfortunately we don’t have a choice in that, think about what Minister Shatter said a few weeks ago…
Something along the lines of “I’m powerless to make to church pay for the crimes they committed”
What’s with all the no’s?? I’m
Thinking there are a lot of people that don’t understand what celibacy actually means!!!
It means not ‘gettin the roide’ by the way!!
It’s the craw thumping brigade that are red thumbing.
I reckon for most of them their next r*de will be their first.
Of course clergy should be allowed marry.
Not gettin caught gettin the roide;-)
Who cares!
My thoughts exactly, they should have an ‘I don’t care’ instead of ‘I don’t know’
Shouldn’t we be having a poll about whether Catholicism should be deemed an illegal organisation?
If you have kids, or ever will,you should care. No matter what you do as a parent, its impossible to shield your kids from “that” cult.
As for the poll, It actually depends on whether the church attracts paedophiles or if extended periods of celibacy creates them!
Why read the article if you don’t care? If you are looking for something to moan about try moaning about something you don’t like
They already have!!!!
Idiotic, illogical, hop on the bigotry bandwagon, you should get together with padraig above, spouting drivel.
You care enough to comment!
How could celibacy create a paedophile? I think its the opposite, paedophiles went into the priesthood for the oppertunity, immunity and cover it would give them. And remember not all priests are paedophiles, very few remember, did all the damage. Not all priests are celibate either for that matter.
Yes Margaret, not all priests are paedophiles. SURE.
They do. It’s called Don’t Vote!
Then why comment on it or read the article.
Celibacy is unmarried. Chastity is no sex. Two different things.
Haven’t see you here for a while Jakey! How have you been? Still calling anyone who disagrees with you a religious bigot I see.
Fair point Andrew,
But technically a marriage must be consumated thereby extinguishing the chastity momentarily otherwise the marriage can be challenged and annulled.
Ah Tony, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.
They’ll have to if they want to keep staffed
Yes. From what I can gather, nowhere in their book does it state or require it as a prerequisite (like most of their silly traditions). Come into the 21st century, lads…
If have to agree that the paedophilia s only so widespread in the clergy because it’s been more publicised.
However, I think if a priest is going to “guide a flock” then he should be able to experience a full life. How can anyone give advice and guidance on something they know nothing about?
My fiance wanted to get married in the church, but the idea of pre-marriage counselling made me a bit uncomfortable. The last thing I need is someone who isn’t married telling me what a successful marriage is (would this likely include wifely submission and lack of birth control?)
Nick your comment is from the Middle Ages, Lay people give the courses. The church does not promote the submission of women, and contraception is not a main topic of discussion, and it is regarded as a matter of conscience.
Not necessarily bigjake, my friends pre marriage course was done with a nun. When it came to discussing the use of the rhythm method for contraception he had enough and left. Ended up just having a civil ceremony
So true practice what you preach..
Derry how can a heart specialist doctor help a coronary patient if he/she has not had a heart problem?
Very strange, not the norm, it’s a pity that the couple were not into music.
The church does not promote the submission of women? what about the Magdalene laundries?
Well said bigjake… some people spout awful nonsense. As someone who went through one of those pre-marital courses recently it was indeed given by a lay person.
What they covered was quite basic stuff really and while a priest did come in for half an hour to give a little speak, his contribution was actually quite relaxed and was full of humour.
To imply that these courses are ran by priests who dictate every detail of what your married life should be in their view couldn’t be further from the truth.
Accord, for one, are all lay & married counselors – granted it’s 16 years since ours, but there was little or no reference to religion – it was all about making sure we fully understood the commitment we were entering into.
Because heart surgery is an exact science. Dealing with different people, personalities and situations is not.
Odd, Bigjake, since the church has never considered it “a matter of conscience” in Africa or the Philippines. They’ve actually gone out of their way to interfere with people making their own decision based on conscience.
I think his point is that your assumption on pre-marriage courses was unfounded and completely untrue.
It’s not completely untrue, several people here have noted they did not see laypeople. I am not comfortable receiving advice from my fiance’s local priest – I don’t think anyone who isn’t married can give advice on marriage.
Local priests don’t give pre-marriage courses – they are conducted by marriage counselors, like accord & access. There IS, obviously, a pre-marriage meeting with a priest because they obviously want to make sure the church is being used for a ceremony, and not as a nice backdrop for photographs, so yes, what you stated IS untrue.
Well, kind of. As Stephen Doyle noted, that’s not true for everyone. You seem awful determined to describe your own experiences as universal.
In the rabbinical tradition (which I’m much more used to), the rabbi’s role is as much of a counsellor as a spiritual leader, which is why so many have counselling degrees. I’d feel far more comfortable speaking to a spiritual leader who had been trained in that are – a better system than what is currently in place in Catholicism (but obviously, I won’t be patronising the church for a wedding.)
You’re going to quote a comment on the journal as fact? As a lawyer you should know better.
But I’m obviously wrong to doubt you on this one. As an American, who briefly lived in Ireland and moved to England and is quite clearly not a member of the RC, you of course know everything there is to know about getting married in Ireland.
Sometimes, you’re so full of cr@p it’s laughable. Is there any subject you’re NOT an expert in?
What does being American have to do with anything? You know there are Catholics worldwide, right? And I know people who have had priests do instruction. I think that’s a bit useless.
I’ll try to cut you some slack as you are clearly more personally involved and defensive about this than I am. Great, get married wherever you want, I just find the idea of priests giving marital advice a bit ridiculous.
so a doctor/surgeon cannot cure an illness without having suffered from same illness first?
Not true, Aisling, but the argument is often made in addiction studies. Recovering addicts make the best counsellors for addiction, as they understand the experience of it. That’s the entire reasoning behind peer-led counselling.
As anyone who is married knows, it’s a lot more art than science!
“The last thing I need is someone who isn’t married telling me what a successful marriage is (would this likely include wifely submission and lack of birth control?)”
&
” I just find the idea of priests giving marital advice a bit ridiculous.”
Again – pointing out, both these comments are off the mark, marriage counseling is carried out by lay counselors. You clearly don’t like the RC – that’s fine, but don’t put forward false statements to put down those you don’t like.
How can my doctor guide me if he never had cancer or a heart condition. A married priest would have to have a nagging wife, a son on drugs a daughter pregnant out of wedlock, his mother in law with dementia living in their home and a grandson in jail to really understand family life today. Experience can come from sensitivity and deep pastoral concern and not just lliving
See, Matt, if you’d pointed out that this rarely happens and hasn’t in your experience, that’d be fair enough. But then you go to “everyone who has had experience other than the line I’m proposing must be lying.” Which comes off as a bit aggressive and hive minded.
Yes, I have an issue with the policies of the Catholic Church that have killed vulnerable women in the third world – a lot of which is wrapped up in the way it views marriage.
I went to a priest last week for marriage counselling. I was at the end of my tether with the stubborn hubbie. He wasnt the first person i spoke to but he was the first person that actually helped me. He gave practical advice on my relationship and how best to make it work. I took his advice and it has made a massive difference so far.
Prior to that i spoke to my happily married doctor who just shrugged his shoulders and took €50..
What i would say is not to dismiss a celibate person/priest.. They often know more than you would realise.. And they’ve no baggage either!!
see – now you’re going off on a tangent – the article is on whether or not priests should remain celibate, which moved onto marriage counseling. Now you’re trying to dig up the abortion argument again – which is a different discussion (& which I support conditionally).
As for “hive” minded – absolutely – If I may coin your phrase:
The last thing I need is someone who isn’t catholic telling me how the church should be run,
or
The last thing I need is someone who isn’t Irish, nor living in Ireland, telling me how our country should operate.
Aodh, doctors are there for cures and treatments, and you will find with serious and terminal conditions that they will advise you on counselling groups, not offer to be your therapist.
There’s a different between technical procedures & sciences and actually being able to offer relatable advice on life. I’m not saying priests can’t listen, offer a shoulder and give some soothing words – they do, and that’s great for some people. I, personally, would feel better taking life advice from people who had some sort of experience.
Oh, Matt, still smarting that you were wrong about safety of abortion statistics? That was a wee bit embarassing.
And actually, I was referring to contraception, as discussed in my first post “the last thing I need is someone who isn’t married telling me what a successful marriage is (would this likely include wifely submission and lack of birth control?)”
One of the major issues a lot of people of faith and spirituality have with the Catholic Church is their, frankly, ridiculous policy than birth control should be banned. Maybe if priests were married and actually impacted by the ban, it would be a wake up call to the Church.
Part of the Church’s problem is the statement you just made “The last thing I need is someone who isn’t catholic telling me how the church should be run,” At the minute, the Church is in a echo chamber, rather than listening to anyone not part of the Church who might have a better understanding as to why their attendance numbers are vastly dwindling.
Also, you should probably lobby the Journal to ensure no non-Catholics post on this article. As you seem weirdly pro-censoring people jawwing on the internet if they’re not directly involved.
Odd – in the 80′s we were given a full brief on contraception in school, by priests. & while they obviously thought abstinence was the best policy, a condom would be best otherwise.
In addition, funnily enough, I actually featured in a semi-religious program on RTE- pre & post vasectomy, to dispel the myth that every sperm is sacred and that “family planning” is frowned on by the church. Your assumptions are incorrect, but I would expect that of somebody on the outside looking in.
Oh, well, if you went to a progressive school, then clearly the vast majority of Irish people who received no or subpar sex ed are lying. And the Catholic church hasn’t really lobbied against condom use in Africa or opposed making contraception legal in the Philippines.
Everyone else is lying, aren’t they, Matt?
People are entitled to all the opinions they want – I just don’t like when people put up false statements to put down a person or organisation, just because they don’t like them.
Sorry – I’m not getting lead in order to give you another platform to rant on about your main agenda.
Not the same thing at all, not even close….
(Referring to the comparison between a priest not experiencing marriage and a cardiac surgeon not experiencing having a heart attack)
Oh, another conspiracy theorist who thinks Catholics are under persecution.
Sorry, but my ‘main agenda’ isn’t too keep anyone from practicing their religion – and it’s a bit daft to go on about how us non Catholics can’t understand facts.
@bigjake ” The church does not promote the submission of women”
Here’s a Catholic blog on that topic http://www.fixthefamily.com/blog/6-reasons-to-not-send-your-daughter-to-college
That was a few years ago as far as I am aware they are all closed now ? So do enlighten me
Bigjake, the church may not PROMOTE the submission of women, but it operates the submission of women.
And contraception is not a matter of conscience, it is forbidden. The fact that people decide to ignore the ban doesn’t change that.
Marina, to be fair, that blog doesn’t come from the Catholic church, but from a group of fundamentalist Catholics.
Yes, I believe it would lower the chances of child abuse in a community.
Great! Paedos should have sex with adults so that it will stop them being paedos. They are/were paedophiles not just abstaining from sex
The catholic church should remove itself from schools, hospitals and the lives of ordinary decent folks who want nothing to do with it’s sick culture of reaping children and enslaving women
Padraig the answer is simple don’t go to catholic schools, and don’t go to hospitals that were set up originally by religious orders.
That’s too easy Bigjake!
Bigjake is absolutely correct. If it wasn’t for the church a lot of people would not be educate today. They set up and ran schools for those who could not afford schools.
That is why there is still a lot of support the church today.
That choice wasn’t available to me, when I was of school going age all the schools in my area were catholic schools….
Even though the notion of free will was bandied about, I got a good hiding every time I said “I don’t believe that Jesus was my saviour”
Bigjake, in 90% of cases schools and hospitals are run with a Catholic ethos. It’s impossible to get a non Catholic school in a small vilage or town. The grip of the Church is still very strong in rural areas I would suggest
“Reaping children” – do you mean begetting children? It’s a new way of saying it I suppose – If you sow the seed etc. you reap the children.
@Joey Joe Joe
It couldn’t have been because having access to children at a young age allowed for them to indoctrinate children with their nonsense and thus ensure the future of their organisation? Or hospitals because it gave them access to desperate grieving people who are only too happy to belief their loved ones are “in a better place” and will accept any ridiculous claims that go along with that fantasy? The RCC is not based on altruism but greed and power.
In fairness, Jake, it’s hard not to go to Catholic schools, since most schools are Catholic.
@ bigjake and Joey Joe Joe, what a ridiculous point, ‘Don’t go to catholic schools or catholic hospitals’, where do you think the catholic church got the money to set up those schools and hospitals in the first place? From the Irish people at the collection plate, when they were most likely barely able to feed their own children, don’t give me that ‘church schools / church hospitals’ rubbish.
@Gaius Gracchus
The church also had its patrons amongst the wealthy, in fact all Social Justice models have emanated from the idea of churches(communities) helping their neighbours . The church hardly had a policy to force poorer families to pay taxes they couldn’t possibly afford like the State currently does.
Yes they should be allowed to procreate like any other human being. It was a very stupid canon law to be enacted in the first place.
However, i feel it still lessen the attraction of the church to paedophiles.
The reason being, is the ease of access to children. It may decrease the abuse rates but will not wipe it out entirely.
You seem to be unaware that paedophilia is not a Catholic priest celibacy issue but afflicts doctors, dentists Protestant and Jewish clergy married and single male and female. Sexual activity does not sure problems nor does being celibate cause problems. Marriage requires self-giving, total love ,no selfishness, hard work and sharing sexual life has to be in context. As to ABC artificial birth control it is very often a recipe for disaster for couples, Pumping chemicals into the female body and telling the body it is pregnant 13 times a year is not smart. That is why it is banned in Judaism, if they listen to their Bible and many Evangelicals see it as immoral also. Why is there so much divorce? .
Well said -
Personally I would prefer a poll to see if we would like to run them out of the country or not.
Ah auld Pietro Parolin would bring this up, he’s well known for his womanising, he’s like the Tom Jones of the Vatican I hear…
Bit surprised at all the No votes here, what difference does it make to anyone else’s lives whether a priest can have relationships or not?
David your ignorance is outstanding, what do you know about this man, that you could actually stand over?. What goes around comes around.
“Big jake” your lack of a imoty to recognise humour or a joke when you see it is more astounding, that my friend was a joke! I have no idea who the man is, tell me, have you ever watched father ted?
David, yeah I like father ted, humour accepted
I think we need to be very careful suggesting that this would reduce child abuse. It is in a way suggesting that it is just the sexual urge that drives pedophiles.
It isn’t about the sex, it is about control, manipulation and a hoard of other sick things. There are plenty of men and some women who are not priests that sexually abuse children so please do not give priests (not all priests were involved I must add) another excuse to use to defend their vile actions.
I’m not Catholic so I never have understood why priests could not marry so I would welcome a change.
Have to say am hugely disappointed with the awful drivel that has been put up here
Paul, drivel from which side?
Both
If this survey was posted 2 hours earlier, the yes would win, as the no voters would still be sleeping, where the yes voters are now at work.
I’m surprised at the no votes myself but what are you implying? That they are unemployed? Old? Housewives?
Strategic unemployed, old housewives, people living off the church, etc
Is there a large percentage of conservative Catholics among the long-term unemployed? And how do you live off the church?
And what do you live off Patitas?
If ‘Apple’ or ‘Microsoft’ did what the those sickos did we wouldn’t allow them to trade or to hold property in the country. The catholic church stood side by side with Franco and Hitler, they openly operated a pedophile ring and profited from slave labor for over 80 years in Ireland. They shouldn’t remove just celibacy, they should remove themselves and their whole filthy dirty grubby perverse organisation from our shores!
Don’t forget they not only stood with Hitler the also helped leading Nazi’s escape justice after the war.
The LIE has been exposed, All churches should shut up shop and accept they are just money making schemes
David, that’s a silly, simplistic statement.
Bang on the money David, the simple truth hurts
Absolutely YES!
Will it happen under the shower in Rome?
Don’t hold your breath!
Remove celibacy & let women join the priesthood if they so wish.i wonder would this save the church from its continued downward spiral?
Definitely yes. They have ‘needs’ like every other human being. It’s the sexual frustration that is the cause for all the abuse!
and what is the cause of sexual abuse in families where fathers abuse daughters (and sometimes sons)?
why not… most of them are at it already
Yeah..it would keep alot of young boys safer.
Well, more children are at risk in their own homes from their own families than ever from the church, but it doesn’t suit a lot of Bigots to know that. None so blind as those who will not see. Only a small percentage of clergy are paedophiles (about 4% I believe) but the way the media have portrayed the stories over the years it is easy for the anti-church brigade to push their own agenda. And child abuse doesn’t seem to matter to these bigots if it is not caused by Catholic clergy.
So 4% are paedophiles but what percentage knew about it and covered it up to protect their institution and their power. You really are delusional if you think there’s some conspiracy against the catholic church. Are the people who no longer attend mass due to their disgust with the behaviour of the church classified as bigots too? Stop playing the victim for the love of (your) god!
Your argument is nonsense; it’s a total false equivalency. Yes people are more likely to be abused in their homes but there wasn’t a huge conspiracy that enabled these abusers to freely abuse dozens of different children over several decades as happened in many cases in the church. The abusers were protected and even aided just to avoid embarrassing the church. It’s ironic that you likely belief your faith gives you your morality and that people who don’t believe in god are the ones who are lacking!
I have never questioned or doubted a person’s morality, or lack of it, based on their religion or lack of religion. I respect every person’s right to their belief or non-belief. You are the one making assumptions here.
There may not be a conspiracy against the Catholic Church (and I never made that claim) but anyone can see that there are a lot of jumpers-on-the-bandwagon who are only waiting for the chance and will use each and every method they can to denigrate Catholicism .
And you cannot believe that there wasn’t a blind eye turned to abuse of children in the home – it is not so long ago since victims of home abuse in the West of Ireland took a case against the State for that very reason.
.
Aisling, your argument about 4% of priests is ridiculous as MYEL5317 has pointed out, there are thousands of documents in the Vatican archives that Ratzinger oversaw for over 20 years in his role before becoming pope relating to clerical abuse of children, nobody has access to them, we only know the tip of the iceberg. I shudder to think what’s happening in the Third World at the moment, children in remote areas at risk which we will not hear about for a long time also. I find it shocking that so many catholics commenting on this article each repeat the same mantras for the twin purposes of diminishing the impact of the abuse scandals which rocked this country and others and to give themselves peace of mind, to block out the horrors that occurred from the rational part of their minds, it’s harrowing.
I said “likely” on purpose because there are many theists who believe their morality comes from god. I was aware it was an assumption but I put it out there to see if you were that type of person. Now I can ask: if people can be good without god then is there a point to god? And if a good person who doesn’t believe in god dies do they go to heaven? Or hell if you believe it in? Is it only the comfort you find in your god (another assumption here) that makes holding that belief worthwhile?
I respect people, their right to believe in whatever they want and their right to practice those beliefs (within reason) but I do not have to respect their beliefs; believes are just ideas and they need to earn respect based on their merits.
You cannot deny that the child abuse scandal has damaged catholicism as it has shown many (if not a majority) of the leaders of the church to be hypocrites. Just because someone doesn’t like the church doesn’t mean they’re “jumpers-on-the-bandwagon” when they criticise it on this issue; the actions of the catholic church have been reprehensible and deserve universal condemnation. It takes some really skewed thinking to see such condemnation as some sort of undeserved or over-the-top attack. Just because other people/groups have done bad things doesn’t mitigate the bad done by the leaders and members of your religion. If others aren’t getting as much criticism you should be saying that they’re not getting enough instead of acting like you think you’re getting too much! It’s such as strange reaction to me.
The priests/Christian missionaries coined “the Missionary Position” term in the first place when they observed un-Christian natives having sex in a “feral manner”.
They said “missionary” was the only “decent” way to have sex.
The priests/nuns have always been lecturing us on sex – pre-marriage courses, etc. – makes you think they have some insider information on the matter.
Their club – their rules.
They should start with allowing masturbation, and work their way up to full sex. Again, in Ireland it is not against the law for any priest to have sex with any other consenting adult, of any sex. This question is the same as asking if a Yacht Club should introduce a no-shorts policy, it will be made by some elitist club, and have zero impact on anyones day to day life.
Alien8. It’s not against the law of the land but it’s against Canon law and their vows.
it may be just my experience but I know personally at least five ex priests now married, that is more than the number of working priests I know.
Catholic church not a democracy. Doesn’t matter what people think.
It is that’s nonsense just tell them and they do listen
Graham, give one example
Graham, what do you mean “it is”? Do you understand what a democracy means?
Let them marry and have sex a normal life like everyone else
Why would they want to marry? Get less sex then
@ Graham Crosbie, tell that to most of my married friends!
Its a no Brainer really…..like has been mentioned on here…during Time of Jesus ..all Prophets. .Apostles etc were married…
Church introduced Celibacy for Financial reasons and to Castigate women as been subordinate creatures…..Any women that were outspoken during the dark ages were burned at stake for Witchcraft and Heracy…
Maybe a few of the NO campaigners should watch a few episodes of THE BORGIAS on Sky Atlantic. ….that might open their Eyes….
Your theology is as poor as your spelling and grammar – but that’s what comes from watching too much Sky Atlantic . Try a few text books instead.
I’ve read the textbooks about the Borgias, Ashling. They’re less sensationalist than the programme on Sky but the story is the same. The goings on would curl your hair. Maybe you should read a few yourself.
“Church introduced Celibacy for Financial reasons “….. hmmm maybe partly the reason
“Church introduced Celibacy to Castigate women as been subordinate creatures”
Hmmm Priest’s denying sexual activity to themselves = Castigate women as been subordinate creatures
You’ll have to explain that one to me I’m afraid. I thought it was the men who want to have sex with women who objectified us and want us to be subordinate.
and “Any women that were outspoken during the dark ages were burned at stake for Witchcraft and Heracy…”
should read….
“Anyone! that was outspoken during the dark ages were burned at stake for Witchcraft and Heracy…”
Strange how so many take time commenting to vent their hatred, by asking for an “I don’t care” option?
Celibacy is an option that could be changed, but it works very well. The priests main function is sacramental. Being celibate enhances this role.
There were 65K seminarians in 1975, there were 115K worldwide in 2005. There are waiting lists to access seminaries in America. Even in the west where there has been a decline, there are now signs of a recovery, with many young men able to recognise the difference between truth and the shallow promises of the secular.
I for one am thankful for their celibacy, and pray for many more to be brave and follow their heart.
The vitriol here is more a cry of remorse for ones own life decisions, than any convincing argument against exclusively committing ones life to Christ.
Paddy, just curious about something, you mention that “celibacy [...] works very well” and that being celibate enhances their role, can you quantify or explain how exactly?
I mean, should priests not be allowed to read fiction, watch TV, listen to music, socialise, have interests?
Surely all of these take away from the priests’ ability to be exclusively committed to God?
I’m not trying to start a fight, just curious, because I really don’t understand.
Fair play Paddy. Excellent post. Facts don’t lie.
So by your logic paddy a married protestant minister is not as devoted to Christ as an unmarried catholic priest?
@ Seán Gallagher
As a married man Sean, I’m afraid I could not equate my love for reading, music, or film; to the kind of love and prioritizing I would do for my beloved. This of course is extended by the natural outcome of marriage, children.
If my wife was unwell, or a child, and I had a 4 am call for the sacrament of the dying, I’d be conflicted.
@ John Everyman
Your words not mine. I’m sure both the protestant minister and indeed myself, are fully committed to Christ. But both of us have other considerations in our availability. Their role is more pastoral, whereas s catholic priest gives more time to Sacrament.
Paddy do Priests mastrabate?
Steven, you’re absolutely right, but you can use the ones that best support your argument.
For instance, (citing IrishCentral.com) in an article from March this year, it was reported that in 1984 almost 90% of Irish Catholics attended weekly Mass, however in 2011 that number was reported to have fallen to just 18%.
We can all find a number to debate this stuff,
Paddy, I wouldn’t try to measure up the importance of one against the other, just wondering why you feel that allowing priests to engage in normal sexual conduct or even marry is a bridge too far?
Also I’d like to know how you feel about the church’s changing position on this given that celibacy is a relatively recent, construct of the church and in no way a dictat from God?
“The priests main function is sacramental. Being celibate enhances this role.”
You said those words Paddy, therefore arguing that an unmarried clergyman is somehow better at his role than a married one.
@ Joe Sixtwo
Poor Joe, I bet you smiled as you considered the wisdom required for that anonymous perl.
I for one think Joe’s question is perfectly valid. Any medical professional will tell you that a lack of sexual release is unhealthy and therefore the celibacy of priests raising an interesting dilemma.
On the one hand they must try to adhere to the church’s silly doctrine with regards to masturbation, but by doing so they adversely affect their health.
@ Seán Gallagher
An interesting post Sean. Perhaps part of the difficulty is revealed in your comment. You say ” engage in normal sexual conduct or even marry”. Society, certainly many commentators here, have that “or” in their vocabulary. This is indeed the basis for many of societies woes, the separation of sex and marriage. If marriage and sex ment nothing, then sure it would be fine if we’re all at it, priests and all. But many of us have a more elevated view of both marriage and the priesthood.
The church is of course free to change its mind on this one, unlike the ordination of women.
@ John and Paddy Thank you John, it is a very valid point but it is ignored and the practise is forbidden by the church (Paddy correct me if I am wrong). The constraints that the church demand from people is not healthy. The whole subject of repressed sexuality within the church should be addressed because of the mental and physical damage it does to the Human being.
Open and free discussion was never welcomed by the church, thanks for confirming that Paddy.
Hey Paddy,
My reference to “normal sexual conduct” may have been misunderstood, I’m talking more about dating, forming relationships and given that priests would of course be devout Catholics, all of this with a view to marrying and potentially/presumably raising a family.
I would fully expect that if Priests were given permission by the Church to drop celibacy, that they (those who opted to) would do so in a way in keeping with their faith and the ethos of their Church, I wouldn’t presume that they would become promiscuous. Would you?
@ john and Joe
Very briefly, the RCC considers our sexuality a great thing. The idea that our sexuality is an uncontrollable urge is nonsensical and dangerous. Our sexuality which is strongly wired to our emotions, is ment to be subdued and controlled. Otherwise societies response is that what happened on the bus in India is in some way understandable, and therefore acceptable. Our sexuality is ment to serve us not to be our master. This is true for all, male or fenale, hetero or homosexual, single or married .
The idea that our sexuality is a beast that will consume us if not let loose one way or another, devalues our personhood.
The priests I know are committed and full blooded, how fantastic are they!
I couldn’t find that word in my dictionary – what does it mean? And if you mean masturbate then what business is it of yours whether they do or not, you pervert?
Sean, I can accept that.
My personal view is that the church will keep celibacy, and there is strong evidence of a surge in faith and vocations, even in Ireland. The difficulty in the priesthood is experienced by those older priests, who were thought poor moral theology, and who have had poor support in their vocation. The younger priests are now receiving good formation for the challenges before them.
Hey Paddy,
Love to see that evidence, genuinely because everything I’ve seen has shown a pretty dramatic drop. Be nice to see the other side of the information if you can link me?
Your point about old priests and young priests (temptation to do an Exorcist joke aside), seems kinda irrelevant to me, I don’t think the seminary can teach a person out of falling in love better today than it could yesterday.
Yeah the quality of how Priests are taught to interact with parishioners may have improved but this isn’t necessarily relevant to the discussion of what is lost by priests being allowed to marry/date/form relationships or maybe I’m missing the point…
Paddy thanks for the explanation, I understand it but don’t agree entirely with it. My take on this is consenting adults should know what they are doing and nobody should come to harm because of it. If people wish to lead a celibate life then they should be free to do so, but making this a condition or an obligation is not healthy.
Eh Paddy I never claimed sexuality was an uncontrollable urge. What I said was that a lack of sexual release has a detrimental affect on a person’s physical health, which is true.
Now if priests cannot take spouses how do you propose the church protect priests from the ill effects caused by a lack of release?
@ Seán Gallagher
This is too big a subject for a comment, and I don’t wish to be over generalizing or negative toward older priests. I think they got very little support or advice.
For instance it is not ok for a priest to be developing private personal relationships with women, he is being naive to think he will not fall in love if he puts himself in a vulnerable position. So the priests disposition needs to be different from that of a lay person, if they are to live out their commitment.
Priests need a lot of support in living out their commitment, I think the younger priests are learning this better than before. The assumptions that prevailed fifthy years ago, automatic public respect for a priest, no longer hold. The abusive labelling of priests today is shocking, and reflects much more on the accusers than the accused. It is true, they are only human, that us why what they achieve is so extraordinary.
Ok Paddy,
Now you’re in to rhetoric and unsubstantiated claptrap, sorry if this is a shift in how I’ve been speaking but this is just unsupported off topic nothingness.
@ Seán Gallagher
I suppose whats one mans claptrap, is another’s comment. I believe this item is about celibacy and priesthood?
All I’m saying is that you’ve jumped tracks, you appear to doing a shill piece for the RCC.
If you wanna talk about how celibacy (tangibly) helps the Priesthood, or how things would be worsened by priests having the same rights as everyone else then great, but seriously your comments don’t even make sense.
For instance it is not ok for a priest to be developing private personal relationships with women,
- Why?
he is being naive to think he will not fall in love if he puts himself in a vulnerable position.
- This is just nonsense. Are you seriously trying to tell me that it’s impossible for someone to have a female friend and not fall in love with them? What if (God forbid) the priest is gay? Should they only have female friends to avoid the temptation?
- I would also say that my friendships are most definitely not things which make me vulnerable, quite the opposite.
What you’ve outlined is that Priests not only shouldn’t have romantic interests, but they shouldn’t (socially) be around or form friendships with people of the gender they are attracted to because they won’t be able to resist the temptation to fall in love?
Finally, at no point do you say WHY it’s important that they don’t have relationships.
Paddy do you think that if the Vatican removes celibacy that there might be a whole new set of men wishing to be priests?
I have spoken to a few men who started life in the seminary and left after two to three years. They said that they loved their work and were very committed to God and the Church but that the loneliness of celibacy and the lack of an intimate loving relationship was too much for them. They have all (bar one) since gone on to have happy marriages and children, they are still very committed catholics, and are slightly disappointed that they could not fulfill their vocation because of a tradition. They have all said if the rules were changed they would go straight back to the seminary with the support of their new families.
Do you not think committed good men like that are not need in the Church?
Many Church traditions have ceased, some silently, others through lack of enthusiasm for them, others more openly; for example “churching” of women is no longer practiced after they have given birth to remove the original sin of the sex where they conceived, that was a tradition right up to the 70s. Dogma has changed aswell – the souls of stillborn or unbaptised babies no longer go to limbo.
Just because its a tradition doesn’t mean automatically that it is a good thing. If a priest were a husband and a father / grandfather, they would probably be excellent at advising young couples on their pre-marriage courses and about life in general. I think the priesthood would gain much respect again if celibacy was discontinued.
Just my opinion, its not like I’ll be running off to be a priest anytime soon :)
@ Seán Gallagher
Sean if I as a married man started frequenting nightclubs, I would not expect my marriage to last for long. If a priest does not protect his celibacy by avoiding, intimate situations with women, then he is naive, or has a very poor understanding of human nature, his own nature.
@ Conor Buggy
Conor, what the church needs is ordained men able to fulfill the sacramental ministry of the church. It does not need an army of teachers, social workers, administrators or bingo hall operators.
I understand how many would struggle with celibacy, but it is such a gift sacramentally, and that we have been blessed so much by that gift. The experience in faiths, not only Christian faiths, is that the more we try to make it palatable from a human perspective, the weaker it gets. Faith is not just natural, but is supernatural in its nature. So much for human reasoning.
But surely Paddy, a man of faith, God and more importantly one of his voices on Earth would be able to handle being around a woman? This is starting to sound a little bit too much like Original Sin, women are the temptresses? Men can’t control themselves?
Nightclubs are far from intimate, meeting friends for a drink isn’t intimate. Are you seriously telling me that priests shouldn’t have friends?
The point we’re getting at though isn’t that he should avoid women or become tempted, it’s that THAT should be ok, acceptable and as you said in “his own nature”.
Also, you said “If a priest does not protect his celibacy by avoiding, intimate situations”… then what?
You have been unable in any way to account for what the problem with a non-celibate priest is or the current benefits of them are?
hm yes enhance their role how….. abusing kids and getting away with it???
Still waiting for Paddy to answer my question.
How can the church help priests avoid the adverse physical affects which result from a lack of sexual release if they are unwilling to allow priests to take a spouse?
Paddy what does celibacy have to do with faith? Celibacy is a supression of sexual desire. How does that enhance faith? I cannot fathom how it would.
The former seminarians I know studied at Maynooth and in Rome and are absolutely rock solid in their faith. It has never waivered. These good men would make excellent priests.
Nowhere did I say anything about teachers or bingo hall operators….?
You imply that only through celibacy will a priest reach their fulfilled potential in their faith. Would you say that to the Archbishop of Canterbury? The leader of the anglican community is married and has children. Is he a man of lesser faith? As far as I can tell marriage and fatherhood made Archbishop Welbys faith even stronger.
The church is turning away from many good men that would be fantastic priests. In essence the honorific of “Father” would have true resonance for those good men.
Sometimes I think that even if god were to stand in front of me I would refuse to believe in him when I read things like “Our sexuality which is strongly wired to our emotions, is ment to be subdued and controlled”
It amazes me that so many people think marriage is such a wonderful thing, a panacea to cure all ills and once married one lives happily ever after. But why is the divorce rate so high – and why so many people murder their partners? Would being a priest would overcome marital difficulties? Somehow I doubt it, rather it would add to them.
@ Conor Buggy
“They said that they loved their work and were very committed to God and the Church but that the loneliness of celibacy and the lack of an intimate loving relationship was too much for them.”
As far as I recall priesthood is about an intimate loving relationship and a commitment to God and the Church.
If they lacked that then they would naturally question their vocation.
If you say they surely can be committed to both, at which point does one commitment suffer over the other due to real-life realities of managing a range of commitments . It’s like saying (if we take God and Church out of the equation), that a married woman like myself is very committed to the man I married and the children we have together, but that I love other men and I want to commit to them also.
If I said that most people of all persuasions would be scolding me for being un-committed or flaky or confused and neglecting my commitment firstly to my family (or church for the extra analogy).
So Peace for all, do you think married anglican priests are in conflict and have a less intimate relationship with their church and God?
They have a different relationship with their God than the RCC priests perhaps. Maybe that’s why they have different rules, traditions, and a different name associated with their belief. I think the anglican church dates back to 1534 , Henry the 8th and his disdain at not being permitted by Rome to divorce his many wives which he was equally committed to including Anne Boleyn.
So Conor , do you think I can have more than one husband and remain committed and intimate only with the one I have now?
Um read what you said? One husband you would be intimate with and the other you would not be intimate with? That sounds more like a husband and a gay best friend lol.
Your analogy doesnt work. You personified the church and god into something a priest is intimate with and then equated it to a living wife.
I think you just want to be antoganistic just for the sake of it and because its me. My questioning of Paddy was merely trying to gauge why he would be opposed to it when I think it might be a good thing. Its not like it is going to affect you or me. You have said your an atheist and a married woman and sure I am a happily married gay men that has turned away from catholicism. I am merely thinking of the good men I know.
“I think you just want to be antoganistic just for the sake of it and because its me”
Get real Conor you have a serious victim mentality going on, most people see that kind of self-victimisation as a weak tool to disallow or bully someone from challenging free speech, I simply enjoyed reading your comment and quoted the piece I saw from my own perspective as sort of relevant in the context of the discussion you and me and everybody were having..
Nobody doubts your good men you know , but their own understanding of commitment to God is different from those who continue their vocation.
“Your analogy doesnt work”
No? So if I dedicate 100% of my time/life to a single commitment I can remain fully committed, but if I spread myself too thin I can still remain 100% committed?
“That sounds more like a husband and a gay best friend lol.”
I have a few gay friends, but you can be my best one if we can ever get over this bickering ;-)
Lol seriously PFA if I said the moon was made of chalk you would say it was made of cheese. I do not think we have ever agreed on anything! Dont ascribe victimhood to me. I can guarantee that I will never succumb to that. I am a realist, I know people will agree or disagree with me and some will disagree with me just because its me. Paddy gets it aswell. I often wonder are some of the red thumbs he gets merely automatic because its Paddy.
I liked some of your other comments above btw. But I think sometimes you do just see my comments and think “how can I wind him up now”. Lol. At least you are articulate!
As for being your gay best pal, that would be too weird! We’d kill each other!
Anyway my final words tonight are I think celibacy should be a choice for priests but its really not gonna affect the majority of us one way or another.
BFF’s can killl each other and still remain BFF’s :-)
Come here though, you still gave me a red thumb, are you trying to wind me up? Good night!
Aisling, I know several priests who are married; CofI priests, that is, and it’s no better or worse for a marriage than any other job. The wife – or husband – of a priest has a lot to put up with, as their spouse is on call 24/7, and people tend to judge them by their spouse’s job. But I only know one whose marriage broke up; and he was a bishop!
@ Seán Gallagher
No Sean, I believe priests should have female friendships, but I’d recommend caution on how this is achieved. Child protection policy dictates that the priest should not be alone with a child, to protect the child and the priests reputation. Likewise with a woman, caution is prudent to avoid scandal. As celibacy is currently central to the priesthood, this should be defended.
@ John Everyman
John I don’t accept your proposal that not having sex is damaging to your health. Sounds too like another excuse. None of the celibate persons I know are suffering from unfulfilled sexuality syndrome. Strangely enough I’d expect much more irrational and psychotic behaviour from those overexposed to pornography. I have often heard of sex therapy, but never of no sex therapy.
@ Conor Buggy
Conor I don’t see celibacy as a suppression of anything, but a mastering of ones natural desires, for a greater good. This mastering does enhance one’s ability to serve in this extreme manner, encouraged by scripture. On the other hand, if one is not planning to be religious, I’d recommend marriage.
As for the Archbishop of Canterbury, it’s not for me to comment on another denomination, but he of course is not a RC priest.
The RC church does have very high standards for its priests. Not all can live up to that standard.
@ Tony Canning
Strange Tony, but take it from me, not only is controle good for the celibate, but controle is an art required by any good lover, and that is the way God made it.
Paddy you’re horrendously off topic.
Celibacy and child protection are completely different topics and if you don’t think they are then there are some rather twisted connections in your head surrounding sex and paedophilia.
If you’re talking about a priest or woman being judged for walking out of the same room together firstly that must be a very tiny amount of faith and trust you put in the two of them, secondly I’m relatively sure there are some passages about judge not lest ye be judged, let he who is without sin and all that stuff so one would hope that the Christian community these people tend so well thanks to their celibacy would at least have those tenets down.
Further to that point CPPs are written and maintained to protect vulnerable members of society, women are not that.
Second point… Scandal?… Are you from the 1930s or just a frequent visitor there?
Thirdly, (and it irks me that this is the last one because it’s the only part of your post that was on point) you have yet after several times of asking, failed to explain how celibacy is so vital and more importantly, how removing this requirement would be detrimental.
Actually, I just reread your comment are you actually saying that you think if (and you very forward thinkingly believe that they should, I’m sure the recommendation is coming from a good place) a priest has a female friend that they should be escorted or only ever together in sight of others? If not please explain.
@ Seán Gallagher
Well Sean, I’m sure you’ll keep me on queue. But there is a clear parallel between the too issues I believe. You proposed there was no harm in priests engaging in relationships with women, and even proposed merit in such liaisons. I’m confident that priests who would place themselves in compromised situations deliberately, are playing dice with their vocation, and the solemn promise made by them.
What I am saying is that if a priest wishes to remain true to his vocation, then he should guard himself against his desires, with the same rigueur that is required when dealing with the protection of children.
Sean I think Paddy was referring to Policies that are designed to protect the reputations of all involved, as for women being vulnerable members of society, where have you been? This site is full of stories of our vulnerability in everyday life, from fear of rape, domestic violence, etc
Some corporate businesses have an unspoken rule of maintaining romantic relationships between management and junior staff or even among staff, it’s frowned upon to protect the business or compromise it and it’s employees from innuendo, favouritism, sexual harrassment lawsuits, bringing domestic issues to work etc. The “scandal” is not specifically a RCC issue, it’s the way of society.
Paddy, on what do you base this statement: “Their role is more pastoral, whereas s catholic priest gives more time to Sacrament.”?
Don’t you think that priests and ministers of other faiths “give time” to the sacraments? The sacraments are the core of Christian ministry, no matter what denomination.
Peace for All, in what way to you think Protestant priests and ministers have a different relationship with God? Having different rules – for example, ministering in a church where the laity and women are respected doesn’t make an individual priest or minister’s relationship with God different. It just makes his or her relationship with other church members different.
Amazing how many people see sex as merely a way for a man to satisfy his “natural urges” and not as a mutual act of giving and receiving. It also seems to be viewed as some sort of preventative measure to dissuade those who might otherwise abuse children. What a very basic view of human beings. Paedophiles aren’t created because someone isn’t having a sex life! There’s no evidence for that whatsoever! No harm discussing the celibacy issue, but let’s not pretend that men will self combust if they don’t have sex.
What you said is true. How many fathers have abused their own daughters and grand-daughters. In fact very many children are more at risk in their own homes than outside them. Rape and sexual abuse is more about power and dominance than about sexual gratification. If marriage is such a means of satisfying natural urges as people seem to believe why are there so many affairs, men murdering their partner/children etc. – marriage is not the great panacea to cure all ills, and marriage will not cure a paedophile or perverted person. Allow clergy marry if they wish but remember, married men are not seraphic saints.
Not much word from the ‘yes side’ on their vote. Doesn’t the bible tell us to ‘ go forth and replenish the earth’? The clerical celibacy law is a man made, money saving scam.
The whole thing is a man-made, money-making scam so there’s no surprise there.
The Catholic Church is a corrupt failed inhuman institution. They know the game is up and this is a PR stunt to make their world more palatable to a more questioning and increasingly critical public. Like most religions it is based upon faith which discourages questions and encourages accepting superstitions and insane claims that are beyond rational thought.
I think it is time that humanity stop blaming a God or Gods for things that are happening in this world and take responsibility, not only responsibility but action. Let’s face up to it; if there is a God it doesn’t give a sh@t, this has been proven time and again.
I so agree Joe…its time is over and they panically try to “sober up” with their PR Pope who is the worst ever anyway… I am a very spiritual person but people/humanity is awakening anyway and do NOT need an institution anymore who reigns with guilt and power abuse… Open Spirituality is the way!! BYE BYE time to go NOW!
Away with you and take your baggage too.
If Jesus Christ existed as described in the bible the first thing he would do if there was a second coming would be to try to dismantle the catholic church and the first thing they’d do would be to try to crucify him again.
Maybe a secret ballot amongst current clergy would answer this.
The poll question could also be phrased in a very simple way:
Should employers be allowed to discriminate on the basis of marital status or decision to partake in legal sexual contact?
Bit of a tangent maybe, but I reckon if any other employer (even in what would have been considered vocational areas) told employees they couldn’t have sex… there’d (rightly) be a strong objection, why is the Catholic Church allowed to impose these restrictions on its employees?
A friend of mine worked in a Bank in the 1970′s and 80′s , he had to write to the directors of the bank seeking approval that he marry his wife, it was a formality but nonetheless had to be done. He also wasn’t allowed grow a beard. Thank goodness for equal rights.
Celibacy should be removed but also remember abuse wasn’t only going on in the Catholic Church
it doesn’t suit many people to hear that!
@ Tomas
Who said abuse was only going on in the catholic church? Condemning the abuses and cover-ups of the RCC does not mean you ignore abuses elsewhere. However, it cannot be denied that their organisation enabled and protected abusers for decades, if not longer.
@ Aisling
Your faith has led you to a place where you are defending a man-made organisation that, to this day, is responsible for covering up and defending the rape of children. Most people don’t have an irrational vendetta against the church. But it doesn’t suit you to hear that.
Yes it should. That way (some) priests will be enabled to satisfy their sexual needs with adults like themselves, instead of recurring to children, who can be kept quite more easily.
A bit hard, I know, but it should have a positive impact in the number of abuses.
I think the Catholic church incorrectly transcribed the early writings of Christ. He meant Celebrate not Celebite.
And with that, the whole church came tumbling down. Quick! You should publish your findings in a theological journal before anyone else finds out!
Christ didn’t write anything
Christ only cycled.
He’d get a free trip to Rome then , steven ; have you read Fr. Tony Flannery’s book yet ?
on a bike…..
Either thousands of silent, ultra-conservative people sit around refreshing TheJournal.ie or there’s something dodgy about these polls. I’d bet most of us have never heard people arguing for the maintenance of priest celibacy. Bizarre.
It could also be the ultra-liberals, happily denying their enemy priests the wonderful and rewarding joys of unabashed and unrestricted sexual activity and marriage.
Celibacy hasn’t always been in the Church. Irish surnames such as MacIntaggart (son of the priest) & McAnaspie (son of the bishop) are testament to this. The celibacy requirement for clergy was introduced in response to modern inheritance laws which guarantee a surviving spouse a certain proportion of the estate of their deceased partner. Priests were and still are generally provided with parochial houses owned by the church. If a sufficient time passes with a priest and his family living in such a house, then it is their de facto family home. As the largest holders of real estate in the world, the Church stood to lose significant wealth to lay spouses of clergy. It would also fall on the Church to care for families of deceased clergy, which would represent a further cost to the institution.
Come up with religious sounding reasons such as “they are married to God” and you can justify most decisions no matter what their original purpose was. More often than not, their original purpose is the protection or creation of wealth.
How about they cop on and stop believing in such utter nonsense.
Frankly I just think the Catholic Church should get lost its a mainstream cult
I wouldn’t be in favor or removing celibacy all at once. Break them in gradually to the idea.
Let them get started wanking, for instance.
I am surprised with many of the negative comments!
There are more paedophiles in lay society than in the Christian Churches.
More children are abused in families than by clergy.
How many fathers and lay men who are paedophiles have been arrested and jailed for their abuse of children.?
Sadly with the benefit of hindsight, the Catholic Church did not in the past adequately screen new entrants to the priesthood!
New procedures are now in place to protect children and priests.
Jesus chose 12 apostles – one denied Him, one betrayed Him and one doubted Him- that’s 25 per cent!
Forcing Catholic Priests to be married is not the solution to the problem.
There are/were many paedophiles in other Christian Churches where Ministers were/are allowed to be married.
Paedophiles infiltrate all walks of society
Do NOT throw out the baby with the bath water!
There are many excellent Catholic Priests today who do wonderful work for Irish Society
Dermot,
No one, anywhere, ever… I’m guessing on that one… but certainly not in this conversation has advocated FORCING anything.
The point of the comments is quite the opposite, it’s aimed at ALLOWING something, rather than forcing it’s absence, the only “forcing” in this is the church forcing those in the seminary before taking vows, to give up relationships and not to have any more.
Oh wow I am SHOCKED how many people voted NO!!!!
Well the catholic church should remove itself…TIME IS OVER clerical corrupt politicians and child abusers! TIME TO GO!!
Go where? We’re not going anywhere. Are you?
The only reason they can’t marry is purely financial if a priest married then the church would be responsible for his family as well. Would’nt be to long getting rid of some of its real estate then.
Thanks to the priest unableness to be with a woman and cannot father a child. Now in Ireland you only have to look at the Ryan reportsyo see that this is what has happens. Men as cellular bodies have an urge which is natural when one wall is down sadly the weak priest crumbled into weakness sexually.
Let the priests marry if they wish. It could cut a load of future crap out of the bargan
I’m not Catholic so perhaps I have no right to say the following, but it always freaked me out that priests couldn’t marry and have children, yet part of their job is to counsel parents on how to raise those children and to create a successful marriage and home. According to the teaching of the church as I understand it, the family is the cornerstone of society, and yet that is something that the leaders of that church have no experience of.
I also really object to the whole idea of “let them marry, they’ll stop abusing children then”. Most men who abuse children are married. Or at least a hefty proportion. It’s not like paedophiles who abuse children are just doing it because they can’t sleep with women.
Celibacy is an unnatural process
Celibacy is not a process. If you are not married and haven’t had sex you are celibate by default.
So many people voted No, but where are their comments? Of course RC priests should be allowed marry.
In the absence of an “I don’t care” option, I selected “I don’t know”.
I think not voting is the option for “I don’t care”
So why comment at all?
Exactly my point. If you don’t care, don’t vote!
I didn’t say I don’t care about the poll, I said I don’t care if priests are forced into celibacy.
My actions are perfectly consistent with the position of not caring about the question while caring that that lack of caring is noted.
I am also shocked at the no votes! On what planet is it right to take away a man’s right to enjoy making love? It’s not healthy. They should be allowed to marry and have families. It must be a lonely life. Who decided to make up that rule in the first place?
On what planet is it right to take away a man’s right to enjoy making love?
Seemingly a lot of men here would say when they get married the right to enjoy it actually ends :-)
This is the internet Jade , there are 7 billion Catholics in the world and the vatican does have the internet;
A breakdown of the traffic in terms of source might prove intel esting.
Good grief! HOW many Catholics??
Sexuality is a God-given gift. Enforcing clerical celibacy is like throwing God’s gift back in His face.
so a man or woman who decides not to marry, not to have children and lives an ordinary working life is throwing God’s gift back in His face – in other words it is one’s duty to have sex and procreate. Just what a farmer expects of his animals.
You’ve just described why catholic’s think gay people shouldn’t be allowed marry Aisling, speaking out of two sides of your face there I’m afraid
The church should remove itself from humanity
4 absolute morons liked this comment..
I say fair play man…
Anyone who believes this crap has less brain cells than a horse..
To dedicate your life to something with ZERO evidence is a disgrace.
Colin your parents dedicated their lives to your education, what a disgrace!!!
Hey! the horse has gone! Pointless to close the barn door. Abolish organized religion that keeps people ignorant and unempowered.
I think they would of stayed away ftom young boys if they were allowed have sex and get married… none of this went on with vicars in england and they are alloweed have wives and sex.
Where’s the ‘Who cares’ option?
You probably need a “don’t care but I’ll comment twice” button
REMOVE ORGANISED RELIGION.
What would you propose- disorganised religion?
DOWN WITH CAPITALISATION!
Mafia ; Organied
Religion ; Organised
Political Partys ;Organised
It’s all mental !
Frank List , and confirm or deny whether you rang Al Assad ,
that Lombardi is doing too much talking ;
It’s time he fell out of his tree and we see what he really looks like !
If they want to yes, if they don’t then no.
Definitely! It wouldn’t attract the wrong people anymore!
Hello…..
Blaming “celibacy” for loneliness is slothful thinking, which ignores the contented lives that many celibate people lead. The chief contributing factor to the “loneliness” which some priests experience are the changes which took place as a result of the Second Vatican Council. After Vatican II, it was no longer considered necessary for priests to live in fraternal houses and they were encouraged, instead, to live in single houses on their own. This erroneous thinking was founded on the specious notion, at the time, that priests would be able to live even more contemplative lives if they lived alone rather than with their brother priests.
The great advantage of living in a brotherly house with a number of other priests is that, in addition to combating any loneliness factor, it allows priests to gain encouragement and reaffirmation from their brother priests in their fraternal house. It’s common sense, really.
I am surprised with all the negative comments.
It is a clear known fact that there is more paedofiles
Going without sex is hard
What is going on in the heads of the d’ont know’s. Why would you even bother to go to the trouble to take a poll and you d’ont have an opinion on it. Bemused and befuddled.
It might stop the sex abuse
I can’t imagine allowing priests to have sex would be a factor in child abuse. Child abusers abuse children. I am assuming that priests who were no longer celibate would be having relationships with adults. Celibacy does not cause pedophilia, men are not devious fiends who cannot stop themselves raping small children because they are horny! The majority of paedophilia is within the family circle and the lay community. That is not to minimise the suffering of those who suffered at the hands of religious organisations worldwide. The issue of celibacy should be looked long and hard (no pun intended) and decided by those within the religious community.
Pointless talking about this they wont change that. Same as they wont allow female priests.
This cult is full of stone age thinkers and shoule be completely abolished.
I am a practising Catholic, 60 years of age and really hacked off by the behaviour and sanctimonious attitude of many priests and the Church in general. Enforced celibacy is not natural and i fail to see how it enhances the faith of the priests. Of course it does not turn all priests into raging paedophiles, bullies or suppressed cruel angry men but lets face it most of our clergy have a very strange take on real life. A certain proportion of priests over the years have been a danger to society and above the law. Its time this was addressed. The option of marrying and raising children may go a long way to help this matter.
100% Julie. I am not a practising Catholic and I agree with you entirely… I do not believe this poll is accurate and I would love to see the voting patterns and results being checked… It is not likely to happen and it is not a controlled process but all the same I seriously have doubts about the validity of this poll.
I do not believe for one second that even practising Catholics would vote against this when the church themselves recognise it as an issue and one that should be addressed.
Everyone has a right to find a soul mate should they wish. This topic is so backward, of course they should be allowed marry. I also think this does relate to the child sex abuse scandals in the past. Back in the day if parents suspected their son was gay or had unusual sexual tendencies they were shipped into priesthood to sort them out. These men are fighting natural urges to the point that in some cases easy prey became the victims. I’m speaking about a very small percentage but its a fact
“Everyone has a right to find a soul mate should they wish..”
and they should be allowed to marry as well!
Celibacy was not always a rule in the RCC. It was took in due to nepotism with popes handing the papacy and its wealth down to the next generation! All people in religious orders are human, they have a voice. Why not ask them what they want. Give them an option to take a vow of celibacy!!!
What can you say ? 49% of people believe that a section of the world should never experience love and life as their parishioners do, we live in a strange country sometimes.
Leave them marry ffs if the RCC has anyhope in this country . The days of grown men dressing up like Obi-Wan Kenobi every Sunday morning is nearly finished ..
Priests should have the opportunity to decide not The congregation nor the institution.
Well, Carol-Anne, nobody forces priests to be celibate. They join an institution knowing the rules. And those are the rules.
Maybe if the were allowed get their leg over there wouldn’t be so many child molestation cases. Just a thought.
Surprised at the no vote to the removal of the celibacy requirement. What’s more important that under Pope Francis watch it appears that the Catholic Church is more open to discuss the celibracy and other pertaining issues without censure. It’s great that Pope Francis wants to connect with all the members of his Church, other Christians and faiths and to people of goodwill who did believe in God.
The majority of priests who have a true vocation do not wish to be married. This is merely an example of the current ultra-liberalist, secularist world agenda attempting to exert its influence over the Church in my opinion.
Oh really? How exactly do you know that the “majority…do not wish to be married” Peter?
And why should the church not change? It has changed in a lot of other ways – or are you suggesting that a fundamentalist view of the bible should be taken?
Tony, all the priests went into the priesthood knowing marriage was not an option, so one can assume that, since no one forced them to become priests, they are relatively happy with their choice.
They may have known marriage was not an option Gráinne, but it’s ignorant to say they were happy with their choice, it is well established that families sent sons into the priesthood for status in their communities and also when they could not afford to educate their sons as it was a free education they received from the church, many of these men probably had no wish to become priests at all.
Then they could always leave their vocations if that was the case
Gaius, I’m not talking about the past. I’m talking about now. I’m sure there are still priests around who were pressurised by their families into becoming priests, but I’m talking about men who are choosing to be priests now. Anyone who, in the past two or three decades, has become a priest is highly likely to have made a free choice, and, let’s face it, anyone who goes for that option today in the face of such bad publicity as the church has got in the past few years certainly is making a free choice. And they are carefully screened, and expected to have lived a bit, maybe even had a girlfriend, before they commit, so they know what they are giving up.
In that context, they know exactly what they are committing to.
When there’s an article about women the usual male suspects rush in with their ‘what about us’? questions. Now that this article is only about priests – male, why aren’t they out in force bleating about the celibate nuns? It’s equality they are always after isn’t it?
I think you’re being a bit sexist there Bridget…..
Tony
Celibacy is a form of sacrificial worship, enforced worship is not worship
If the Catholic church could just remove itself, that’d be great.
How long would an item on Islam last before comments were closed ?
OK Morticia, we get it. You hate Muslims.
I definitely think Priests should be allowed marry and be able to have a normal family life.
Just remove the bloody Catholic Church all together!
i cant believe the amount of people who have voted no. you people are living in the dark ages with these views!!! catch up people! modern day living and leave the closed minded, dark age views behind!!!!!
There’s a celibacy requirement?????
What about self abuse :)
yeah remove it then priests can actually engage in a relationship which is of normal human nature , specally in the light of all the child abuse by them. of course its going to happen when there told they cant touch a woman. get with the times church. so backdated its unbelivable,
Anyone who voted no clearly does not abide to the rules of celibacy themselves but for some reason like the idea of someone else abiding by them. Anyone who voted no clearly does not realise that celibacy, among other things, is unfortunately killing the Catholic church. It is only normal for someone to want to have a family, so why do people who more than likely have one of their own, deem it necessary to deny that right to a priest or a nun?
It would be nice to go to a mass and hear from a REAL MAN who might be experienced about the “FAMILY”
Roman Catholic Priests are largely a self selecting group of men who voluntarily avoid intimate emotional and sexual involvement with adult females. Admittedly some Roan Catholic Priests belatedly awaken from a laten attraction to adult women and if they wish to maintain in ongoing relationship and are capable of sustaining such a relationship, which requires mutuality, compromise and commitment, they then leave the Roman Catholic Church.
The Roman Catholic Church is a useful refuge for men for whom adult females hold less attraction compared to other persons.
I doubt that there would be a significant utilisation of the exemption from celibacy, as distinction from chastity, which is not observed, within the Roman Catholic Church.
I tend to be liberal about religion. Providing religion is practicised between consenting adults in private and they don’t seek to impose it on others , I say live and let live.
Oh My God ! I don’t believe my eyes. Fcuking hypocrites every one of the 50% no vote. You are all the exact same people who will be condemning the church for allowing and covering up child abuse by clergy, – but you don’t want to let clergy have normal healthy adult sex-life which would virtually eliminate paedophilia from the church.
have your say