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GOOD AFTERNOON. AFTER a distracting few days in Leinster House the Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment is getting back to its business.
The committee met today, and will again tomorrow, to hear more medical evidence.
Some important decision were also made.
This is what happened.
iPhone/iPad users: click here. Streams provided by HEAnet.
Committee chair Senator Catherine Noone is beginning the meeting by outlining how votes are to be taken from next week ahead of the drafting of the final report.
It’s envisaged that this will happen next week but some members are unsure about their availability because of long-standing commitments.
Jonathan O’Brien TD says he wants a debate next week on module 2 of the committee. Module 2 is based on medical evidence and is due to conclude today.
“I’ve over two folders of information now relating to module two,” he says.
Bríd Smith TD wants a vote ahead of next week on the “substantive issue” of whether they are to recommend that the referendum will include a vote on repealing the eighth amendment.
The committee has already decided that the don’t want the Eighth Amendment to remain as it is, but whether it is to be completely repealed is still in question.
Jan O’Sullivan TD says first of all that “it’s good to to be back here”.
There were concerns that an election could scupper the work of the committee.
Those concerns have been averted, but here’s a summation of the worries committee members had and what would have happened had there been an election.
There’s some debate about when the report will be written
Noone says the votes will be taken on 13 November and then the report “will be turned around as quickly as we can”.
Legal advice will need to be taken but all members are agreed that the shorter the report is, the better would be.
Noone says the committee wouldn’t be doing its job properly if the report wasn’t presented in a concise way.
The committee will now hear evidence from Dr Peter Thompson, consultant in maternal fetal medicine, Birmingham Women’s and Children’s Hospital.
He is to address termination in cases of foetal abnormality.
Thompson thanks members for the invitation to him to appear and he says they are to take a “critical decision with regard to women’s rights”.
He says he has worked in the maternal hospital in Birmingham since 1999 and has also been the lead clinician for women with cardiac disease in pregnancy.
He tells the committee he addressed the Citizens’ Assembly and although he does not propose to repeat the evidence he delivered there, he is open to answering questions on what he told the assembly.
Addressing the issue of fetal abnormalities, Thompson says that, out of 185,596 terminations in England and Wales in 2016:
Of all these abortions however, only 3208 were performed under clause E, ie where there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped.
“Although, as in the Republic of Ireland the main fetal anomaly ultrasound is performed at approximately 20 weeks gestation, it can be seen from the table below that only 507 of these abortions were performed after 22 weeks gestation. In 2016, 141 terminations were selective terminations of pregnancy, involving multiple pregnancies and over three quarters of these were under clause E. As can be seen from one of the case studies attached these procedures can have significant benefit for the co-twin.”
He continues:
One of the issues that you face is the decision regarding which, if any, fetal abnormalities will be compliant with the new legislation for termination of pregnancy. With regard to this I would urge you not to make a list, as with the ever changing progress in medicine, conditions would need to be added and removed from the list on a regular basis.
I would also strongly advise against being prescriptive and using the term lethal abnormality. The problem is there is no agreed definition as to what lethal actually means, is it that all fetuses with that condition die before birth, that they die either before birth or in the neonatal period despite supportive therapy, a baby that usually dies in one of these two periods of time or is it that it has been noted that there is an association between the condition and death.
Termination of pregnancy in England and Wales is presented as one of the options available to women if their fetus is at substantial risk of significant handicap. Parliament has not defined either substantial or significant but have purposefully left it to the medical profession to make these decisions in good faith.
Thompson is now answering questions. First from Fianna Fáil TD Billy Kelleher who asks about Thompson’s urging that Irish politicians do not make a “list” of fatal conditions.
In response, he says he would be concerned that you would be “constantly” updating the list because of both the classification of abnormalities and improving medical practices.
“Some people would argue that everything is fatal and some people would argue that nothing is fatal, because it doesn’t lead to you dying in every case, because you may live for a short time after,” he says.
Thompson notes that under the NHS in the UK, pregnant women are offered a free scan on 12 weeks that can point to some abnormalities while a more detailed anomaly scan at 20 weeks is also offered.
He says that a ‘cutoff point’ at 12 weeks after which termination may not be lawful in cases of fatal abnormalities would not be useful because not all abnormalities could be picked up at 12 weeks.
Louise O’Reilly TD is worried about the availability of scans in Ireland and wonders if it is possible to identify women who may be more likely to be in need of a scan early in pregnancy.
Thompson says it is possible to identify women who may be more likely to have a pregnancy with a fetal abnormality, such as women with conditions such as diabetes. but that it even if a scan was carried out early abnormalities may not be identified.
He says the most accurate way to detect abnomalities is to ensure that all women have a scan at 20 weeks.
“I think that is something we can all agree on,” O’Reilly says.
Kate O’Connell TD is asking Thompson about the mental stress that may be placed on families and partnerships following a diagnosis of a fetal abnormality, fatal or otherwise.
“We don’t have the 20 week scans outside of Dublin rolled out,” O’Connell notes, following up on O’Reilly’s question.
Thompson says it’s quite a difficult thing to come to terms with risk and why some women are at a greater risk of a pregnancy with an abnormality.
He said it can be difficult to quantify. For example, he says it is often said that older mothers are more at risk of having a child with Down syndrome.
“But most babies with Down syndrome are born to younger women and that’s because more young women have babies,” he says.
Thompson says that in the hospital in which he works it is almost unheard of that a fetal diagnosis is made and a termination is agreed on the same day.
“We like to make sure that people go away and think about it,” he said.
O’Connell is asking about feticide.
Thompson says feticide a procedure that is carried out after 22 weeks gestation.
He says it involves stopping the heart of a foetus using potassium. He says before this takes place “it is important that you paralyse the foteus in a same way that you would during anaesthetic”
He says that it is not something that doctors like to do, as their job is to save lives, but that “it is something that is necessary to do on rare occasions”.
Bríd Smith TD is asking additional questions about feticide and wants to know if it can be said that the foetus experiences pain.
Smith is also asking whether Thompson feels Irish women are “particularly disadvantaged” by being denied access to terminations in Ireland.
In response to Smith’s question about of foetal pain, Thompson says it is unclear.
He notes that the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists recently said that the evidence for foetal pain is less convincing.
He says that analgesia may not be necessary but may be administered to cover all eventualities
Committee member Ruth Coppinger TD on Twitter:
Ruth Coppinger TD / TwitterIn private session #8committee agreed to vote on #repealthe8th on 13 Dec. We were meant to have vote at end of module 1, we're now at end of module 2. Snap election means vote on repeal is crucial. Contact Cmte members in next 2 weeks asking for them to vote for #repeal #dubw
— Ruth Coppinger (@RuthCoppingerSP) November 29, 2017
Senator Lynn Ruane is asking about the rate of abortion in women who are beyond 24 weeks gestation and whether the rate has increased and declined.
Ruane also wants to know about cases where a termination in the UK in lawful under ‘clause D’, which relates to the effect of a pregnancy on existing children.
This is clause D:
Where the pregnancy has NOT exceeded its 24th week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of any existing child(ren) of the family of the pregnant woman.
Thompson says in his experience it is likely that a termination may be lawful under more than one condition.
For reference, here are the other reasons.
A. The continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk to the life of the pregnant woman greater than if the pregnancy were terminated
B. The termination is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental wellbeing of the woman
C. The pregnancy has NOT exceeded its 24th week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman
E. There is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped. It is important to note that only clauses C and D are gestation dependant.
Thompson says that his main concern for Irish women who travel for the UK for a termination is that they may not have the appropriate aftercare if required.
He says that in his hospital in Birmingham most Irish women try to stay over in the city “but there is always an awareness of cost”.
“Most Irish women used to go to Liverpool, and now it’s London. Some come to Birmingham but it’s less than the other two. And I do think it’s difficult for them,” Thompson adds.
Peter Fitzpatrick TD asks thompson if he thinks a diagnoses of Down syndrome “is enough to deprove a baby of its right to be born.”
“I would be concerned I think it’s okay to abort babies if you think the baby is going to be disabled,” he says.
Thompson says he believes that in such conditions termination is lawful because the baby may be born with physical or mental abnormalities so as to be seriously handicapped.
Fitzpatrick is asking Thompson about his lecturing of younger students.
“My problem at the moment here is I don’t want to repeal the Eighth Amendment and it seems to me from everything you’re saying that you want to repeal the Eighth Amendment,” Fitzpatrick says to Thompson.
At this point Chairperson Catherine Noone interjects.
“The witness isn’t here to comment on the Eighth Amendment, he’s here to give evidence, to be fair to him,” she says.
Fitzpatrick also asks Thompson if he feels the almost 190,000 abortions in England and Wales in 2016 was high. (The number is 185,596)
Thompson says he is not present to give his opinions and adds that he’s there to give evidence about terminations in cases of fetal abnormality.
In 2016, 3,208 terminations were carried out in these cases and Thompson notes that it is low compared to the overall number.
“Roughly how many abortions have you carried out under clauses C and D?,” Rónán Mullen asks of Thompson.
Thompson declines to give a number.
Bríd Smith asks Mullen to justify his line of questioning but the chair lets Mullen proceed.
Mullen is now talking about about children with Down syndrome.
He asks whether Thompson accepts people “will be chilled to the marrow” about his descriptions of feticide.
He also asks him to accept if he has different world view to thousands within his own country.
“I do not believe that all children with Down Syndrome should be terminated, but I do believe that in cases of serious abnormality that women should have choices, ” he says.
There’s a short tense exchange between Mullen and Noone in which Mullen suggests he wishes to talk to the chair at a later date.
After Mullen asks Thompson about his own career and Noone interjects saying that he does not have to answer.
Mullen: But I’m allowed to ask.
Noone: Senator, I interject when various members are speaking.
Mullen: And we’ll talk about that.
Fianna Fáil TD Lisa Chambers says “we don’t have consensus clearly in the country about how we should proceed”.
Chambers is saying that she has heard claims that a woman who has had an abortion is at a greater risk of breast cancer. She is seeking from Thompson whether there is any evidence of this.
“I think there’s a strong link with pregnancy, but I’m not aware if there is any link with termination,” he says.
The committee has now moved on to its second session of the day where it will discuss the ancillary recommendations of Citizens’ Assembly report.
Officials from the Department of Education and Skills and Officials from the Department of Children and Youth Affairs will be speaking to the committee members.
Olive McGovern, principal office at the Department of Children and Youth Affairs is making her opening statement.
“One of the main objectives of the National Youth Strategy is that young people enjoy a healthy lifestyle, in particular with regard to their physical, mental and sexual health and well-being,” she says.
Eamonn Moran, principal officer in the Curriculum and Assessment Policy Unit in the Department of Education and Skills:
Access to sexual and health education is an important right for students. Schools have a responsibility to provide for this, in consultation with parents, having regard to the ethos of the school. Social, Personal and Health Education (SPHE) is a mandatory curriculum subject in all primary schools and in post-primary junior cycle. Relationships and Sexuality Education (or RSE) is required at all levels, from primary through to senior cycle.
The department has set out the content for each of these programmes in SPHE syllabuses and guidelines. The primary level SPHE curriculum currently used in schools was published in 1999.
Its purpose is to foster the personal development, health and well-being of the individual child, to help him/her to create and maintain supportive relationships and to enable children make safe and healthy decisions now and in the future.
At post-primary level, the SPHE curriculum framework for junior cycle was published in 2000. It provides students with the opportunity to develop the skills and competence to take care of themselves and others and to make informed decisions about their health, personal lives and social development.
The reasons the two officials from the departments are here is because of the ancillary recommendations of the Citizens’ Assembly. (The full report can be read here)
Here are the ancillary recommendations:
1. Improvements should be made in sexual health and relationship education, including the areas of contraception and consent, in primary and post-primary schools, colleges, youth clubs and other organisations involved in education and interactions with young people.
2. Improved access to reproductive healthcare services should be available to all women – to include family planning services, contraception, perinatal hospice care and termination of pregnancy if required.
3. All women should have access to the same standard of obstetrical care, including early scanning and testing. Services should be available to all women throughout the country irrespective of geographic location or socio-economic circumstances.
4. Improvements should be made to counselling and support facilities for pregnant women both during pregnancy and, if necessary, following a termination of pregnancy, throughout the country.
5. Further consideration should be given as to who will fund and carry out termination of pregnancy in Ireland.
“The department is developing a policy on wellbeing which will be published in early 2018. The policy, which will cover both primary and post-primary schools, will set out a number of actions which will enhance the physical, mental, emotional and social wellbeing of students and enable them to build life skills,” Moran says.
Louise O’Reilly is asking about Relationships and Sexuality Education (RSE) that may take place during religion class and she says this raises “alarm bells” for her.
She speaks about concerns about groups providing such education are not regulated asks: “Is there any form of standardisation?”
Chair Catherine Noone also wants to know if there have been “any complaints about rogue agencies?”
“No to my knowledge,” says Eamonn Doran.
Bríd Smith TD is asking if there is “problem to progress” by the continue dconnection of the Catholic Church to so many schools in the country?
Emer Egan of the Dept of Education says that when teaching RSE in schools, the school must follow the themes as laid out by the programme but that it is up to the school to decide how they provide it
“Schools are allowed take account of that ethos in how that is covered,” Egan says.
She also says that she feels Ireland has ‘come on a long way’ in the last 20 years about how sex education is provided.
Sinn Féin Senator Paul Gavan says the RSE and SPHE programmes as outlined by the officials were of great interest to some of his colleagues who aren’t long out of education.
“It sounds great, but we never got it,” he quotes them as saying.
Eamonn Doran says he has two girls who have been in the education. In terms of RSE and and SPHE: “One said we never got it and the other said we got it in spades.”
Doran says in some cases it could come down to how the teachers deliver the sex education.
“It could be the case that some teachers decided to cover them in different ways,” he says.
Doran also says that he is often asked about why children aren’t taught about contraception in primary school.
He said such questions considered but that:
You don’t want to hit someone with something that they are too young to understand.
“There is a balance to be found,” he adds.
Kate O’Connell TD says she is “very concerned” to hear that the ethos of a school can be considered in how it teaches sex education.
“I’m concerned that the rhythm method or the withdrawal method is being taught to children in this State,” she says.
“I’m really, really concerned about what children are exposed to.”
Emer Egan says that the curriculum states that “all methods of contraception”should be taught to students but that it is up to the school to decide “how far it should go”.
Egan says he feels that system is “absolutely fit for purpose”.
Bernard Durkan TD says he believes that: “the parents need to be involved in the programme of sex education in the school.”
Durkan says he “got a bit of a shock” when he received an answer to a Dáil question about the number of children who reported being bullied online while in school.
In response to Durkan’s comments about parents. Doran says that parents should be kept informed of the programme of sex education in a school and should in fact be involved with the school when it is being prepared.
Catherine Noone asks how many schools don’t have an RSE policy in place?
“About 1% or 2%,” says Doran.
Amanda Geary says “it is very rare” that schools wouldn’t have a policy because if schools are not compliant and were identified by an inspector the school would be found to be non-compliant with child protection standards.
Labour’s Jan O’Sullivan TD is also asking also about outside groups that may be brought in to teach sex education to children.
“In any other subject you also have to be appropriately trained,” she says adding,
I really think that the time has come to not let groups come in unless they are appropriately trained.
“They don’t have to have a teaching qualification?,” O’Sullivan asks
“No they dont have to have a teaching qualification at the moment,” Emer Egan says in response.
Fine Gael’s Peter Fitzpatrick TD is asking two questions about abortion.
He wants to know whether children are taught about adoption as an alternative to abortion.
He also asks whether children are taught about the development of a foetus and whether they are told when an unborn child’s heart begins beating.
He is told that children are indeed taught about families and different familial structures. The officials also say that children are taught about reproduction.
That pretty much concludes today’s proceedings.
The committee is back again tomorrow at 3pm when it will continue discussing the ancillary recommendations of the Citizens’ Assembly. This time with officials from the HSE and the Department of Health.
It’s planned that this will be the final hearing of the committee that hears expert evidence.
Next week it will start voting and scoping out the final report, which is due to be delivered before 20 December.
It was decided earlier that the vote on the “substantive issue” of whether they are to recommend repealing the Eighth Amendment will be taken on 13 December.
If you want a nightly round up of what happened during each day of the committee, just enter your email in the box at the bottom of this article.
Thanks for joining us, we’ll be back tomorrow.
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No we have heard all the medical truths. We need to get a few weeks religious lies. To ensure the committee is not biased towards truth.
@WinSomeLoseSome: *Now
@WinSomeLoseSome: “And now to refute the professor of obstetrics we have a celibate man to speak on behalf of an imaginary bearded old man who lives in the sky……”
@Larry Doyle: this has nothing to do with religion. This is about morality and right and wrong.
@WinSomeLoseSome: We have not come anywhere close to hearing all the medical truthes. What % of voters do you think will make up their minds based on what their local bishop says? This incessant need to drag religion into the debate is a complete red herring and not helpful to the Repeal campaign.
Are you a practicing catholic yourself ‘Tom’?
@Tom Burke: oddly enough its the religious who like to define morality and what is good and bad for us.
@Tom – don’t get too emotional with us on here today.I’m enjoying listening to this expert.Are you ?
@Larry Doyle: How about we hear from as many professors of obstetrics as possible? Preferably with views and facts different perspectives. So we can be as informed as we can be.
@John Doe: “How about we hear from as many professors of obstetrics as possible? ”
How about we avoid any further delaying tactics and just trust women like we should have been doing all along?
@The Risen: Tom was also a no voter in the SSM referendum. He was quite vocal at the time if I remember. All those direct flights to India in order for Irish gays to bring home babies. Remember all the hype and lies.
@WinSomeLoseSome: you don’t seem to know that the religious view that the life of every human being, yours and mine included, begins at conception, accords fully with scientific opinion based on empirical evidence and observation since the second half of the 20th century. It is easier however to dismiss unpalatable truths as lies. After all on the admission of the medical mastermind behind the campaign to secure unrestricted abortion across the US in 1973 their campaign was built on lies and fabricated polls. ‘ Repeating the big lie enough convinces the public.’ Dr. Nathanson ). So think pro-life opponents who call religious /scientific opinion lies. We all know who is telling the big lie. Nobody is fooled.
@WinSomeLoseSome: abortion is a choice in most cases. What’s it got to do with ‘truth’. And the likes of you are very selective about what ‘truths’ are acceptable.
But you’ve only one vote lad.
@WinSomeLoseSome: leave Santa out of it. Maybe you mean the imaginary man in your head that’s pulling all your levers.
@Kay : women are going to end their unwanted pregnancy. Your emotional hogwash will not stop that.
@John Doe: it was the Catholic Church that got us stuck with this amendment in the first place so we will bring religion into it as much as we want. And how many people listened to the priests on SSM?
@John Doe: if you bring in a medical professional for their expert view you will get their expert view. The fact that none of these professionals are supporting the 8th is not their fault. They work with pregnant women every day. Trust me if they thought the 8th is a good thing they would not be shy about saying it.
@Brian Madden: your right I did oppose same sex marriage. But before I’m shouted down I opposed it because I believe adoption should be, where possible, be by a male and a female.
I believe the rights of the child to have a ‘as nature intended ‘ family should prevail.
I have no issue with civil partnerships, inheritance rights, tax as a couple etc. Fine by me.
@Tom Burke: SSM had noting to do with children as gay people could already adopt and foster. Muddying the waters in this instance did not give ye the desired result.
@WinSomeLoseSome: Sky ? I thought he was with Virgin ?
@Tom Burke: you started off looking a bit dim and went rapidly downhill from there. Even now you don’t know what the SSM referendum entailed.
@WinSomeLoseSome: Yeah, I am really selective, I only accept the true truths
@whiney antis: Scientists base their conclusions on empirical evidence and observation, not on emotional hogwash. I am glad I am on the side of the scientists who agree that the life of every human being yours included,begins at conception. Even leading abortionists like Dr Guttmacher a president of Planned Parenthood admit, ‘ I am perfectly willing to grant that life begins at conception let’s not pretend that it (abortion) is not a form of killing’. Doubtless you will continue to pretend otherwise but that’s your problem. Faye Wattleton , longest reigning president of Planned Parenthood in 1997 said, I think we have deluded ourselves into believing that people don’t know that abortion is killing.’ Delude yourself Whiney, no one else is deluded.
@WinSomeLoseSome: it is nit a human being, it does not have human personality and it potential to become a human being is subject to the anterior existence of the pregnant woman.
@Brian Madden: it gives SSM as equal to natural reproductive couples, which it can never be. That’s not opinion. That’s nature.
Show me a same sex couple who can produce ‘their’ baby and I’ll rest my case.
@Tom Burke: what are you about? SSM had nothing to do with adoption and fostering as gay people can foster and adoptive irrespective of the result of the SSM referendum. Gay people are fostering and adopting and are reproducing. The SSM was positive for gay people and they are not rushing to India to buy babies like you predicted. Irish women are having abortions and will continue to have them. Forcing them to go to the UK delays the process but the end result will be the same.
@Fiona deFreyne: in the sense that the fertilised ovum, the embryo, the foetus do what all human beings do all the time although at a greater rate than we i.e. Cells divide and grow, specialise, develop and mature right through the time in the womb through birth, childhood, puberty etc until the moment of death the baby in the womb is another human being from the moment of conception. Life processes are the same for all human beings before and after birth That is what scientists of all and no religion believe based on empirical evidence and observation. You keep harping on about religious dogma influencing everyone who does not agree with you. Interestingly, the pro-abortion lobby in the US depicted opposition to abortion as ‘religious dogma, misogyny’. Sound familiar?
@Tom Burke: are infertile couples not natural now? Is that nota side point of your argument?
@Fiona deFreyne: not sure if you meant to respond to me, if you did I think u misread my post.
Poe’s law “without a clear indicator of the author’s intent, it is impossible to create a parody of extreme views so obviously exaggerated that it cannot be mistaken by some readers or viewers as a sincere expression of the parodied views.”
@WinSomeLoseSome: what a snide question it’s none of your business
@Eddie Nugent: What snide comment? Whats none of my business?
@WinSomeLoseSome: my apologies i was refering to the Risen asking if a commentator was a practicing Catholic, you were tagged by mistake
@Eddie Nugent: no stress : )
Someone better get the Bishop of Waterford in quick… We have people peddling medical facts when what’s needed here is a good dose of religious fuсkery…
Destroying a human life is never cool.
@Tom Burke: good thing we’re planning to repeal the 8th so
@Fox: I have no idea what your message is.
@Tom Burke: pregnancy by rape and incest destroys life
@richard fennessy: again I don’t understand your message.
@Tom Burke: sorry to here that but sums up pro birth ye just don’t understand people
@Tom Burke: It’s ok Tom, your first comment already displayed your lack of understanding.
@Larry Doyle: guys if you have something to say, say it.
If the message is rape and incest destroy people I agree. But rape and incest without pregnancy destroy people.
Pregnancy by rape or incest is horrendous but it’s being used as the extreme to bring in abortion.
Look at the abortion stats from the UK.
Most abortions are abortions if convenience.
38% were repeat abortions.
@Tom Burke: No one ever said it was cool and pray (pun intended) you never find yourself or any of your family in a situation where decisions like this have to be made.
@Tom Burke: What business is that of yours??? What about the thousands of children (not fetuses) dying every day from starvation around the world?? They don’t seem to impact on your life so why does a clump of cells in a strangers body???
@Tom Burke:”38% were repeat abortions.” and what of it Tom ? Have you got the medical notes on those ‘repeat abortions’ ? Please show them to us if you have .
@Tom : “Most abortions are abortions if convenience.” You do know that two doctors have to sign off on this,yes? Could you also put some CREDIBLE sources that will prove that it is for ‘convenience’ ? Thanks
@Tom Burke:
It doesn’t have to.
Http://www.cosmopolitan.com/lifestyle/a50949/raped-at-11-years-old/
It is often a question of attitude and who you listen to. The idea that a single event or even a period in a person’s life can ruin their whole life is a flawed one that is often spouted by those who claim to be speaking and acting in the interests of victims. It may become a self fulfilling prophesy.
Why Germaine Greer said that rape is not the worst thing that can happen to a women she was abused and castigated. Too often there is only one narrative allowed.
Such events do not have to ruin lives.
@Rob Cahill: if I’m driving down the street and I see a man lying by the side of the road and in danger, I will stop to help. I don’t have to know somebody to care about them.
@whiney antis: what about 2 doctors?
If the woman says she’s stressed by the pregnancy, they will sign. It’s not a big decision.
@Tom Burke: have you ever been pregnant ? If not,why do you want to force some woman to go through something that can cause her great physical or mental harm ?
@Rob Cahill: my brother 19 yrs at the time and his girlfriend 17 found themselves in this situation. They had a beautiful baby girl who has 3 kids of her own today.
Why does pregnancy have to be seen as the end of the world?
@whiney antis: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/652083/Abortion_stats_England_Wales_2016.pdf
@whiney antis: I’m trying to get people to understand that destroying life is never cool.
Why when an image is presented of a foetus with its distinct human features, those who support abortion, deny its human life?
@Tom Burke: you’re a typical anti.You put up emotional nonsense and put up stats without ever going through it..
Repeat abortions …how many are done due to multiple diagnosis of FFA ? How many years does these statistics go back as far ? Could a young child have been raped in her teens and later on in her 30′s had a termination because of an FFA ?
Clause C is used for most reasons.Were you not listening to the expert a few weeks back where she said that there is a lot of reasons as to why a woman will end her pregnancy? How is it a ‘convenience’ if it is causing her physical and mental distress ?
@Tom Burke:
I guess it depends on how you define convenience. Most abortion take place, based on this survey for reasons other than medical.
The top three could easily be regarded as convenience.
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html
That comment to whiney
@whiney antis: that’s what tom does. He was the same during SSM referendum. He is one of these people that has his head in the sand. At least 4.000 Irish women are going to UK every year for abortions. This “not in our back yard” approach is ridiculous. Let’s legislate and provide services for Irish women in Ireland.
@Tom Burke: those facts and truths are NOT acceptable to the abortion lobby.
Fran – Clause C in the UK (that is where iRISH WOMEN GO )
the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of
the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of
injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman (section 1(1)(a))
Always willing to provide facts..Thanks
Brian – Tom is a boring old fart.A boring old fart who only “cares” fro the non viable embryo/foetus…
@Tom Burke: you know this? What is the wording. Go on you can tell us. Just so we know what we’re voting for.
@Tom Burke: it is fortunate that we have the evidence of real experts with real knowledge and real facts. These are professionally qualified clinicians. I get the impression that they know more about this topic and are far less judgmental and emotive than you are.
There are 2 approaches to this vexed topic. One is rational, considered, informed and non judgmental. The other approach approach is moralistic, condemnatory, judgment, emotive and hyperbolic.
@richard fennessy: Let me tell you about a victim of rape whose mother instead of aborting her gave her up for adoption. The girl was adopted by a loving family. When she learned that she was adopted the girl sought out her birth mother. At the same time her natural mother equally was looking for her daughter. Both were happily reunited. The mother was apprehensive that her daughter would reject her upon knowing why she had given her up for adoption. Not so! Instead the daughter who has since married with children of her own and her mother have become very close. The mother is grateful every day that she allowed her child to live. She now has a loving daughter and is proud grandmother to grandchildren who also would never have lived had she decided to abort her rape baby.
@whiney antis: I wondered how long you would go before the insults start.
@Kay Kehoe: they don’t want to hear these type of stories.
Whiney,
I believe that that clause is not being adhered as was intended and most abortions could be argued to be technically illegal. The CPS will not investigate prosecute because it is seen as not being in the public interest. It is seen as a shortcut and I personally know people have used it in such a way. The clause is meaningless.
@Kay Kehoe- great story.Had me in tears.Thanks.
@Rob Cahill: Don’t tell me you are still spouting the myth that the foetus (medical term for baby in the womb as explained by Dr Varadkar when he said ‘we don’t refer to our tongue as a ‘glossus ‘ why foetus for baby in the womb) is only a ‘ clump of cells’ Scientists have debunked that myth long ago. You are also a ‘clump of cells’ and you are a human being, we hope. Likewise the foetus. Move into the 21st century.
@Tom Burke: Quick Q, how many times have you been pregnant?
@Tom Burke: no I know that, makes for uncomfortable reading for those who are hell-bent on having abortion (right to kill) every unborn human being who to their mind does not fit their view of the ‘ perfect baby in all the perfect circumstances.’ As if there is any such thing as perfection. You and I are not perfect. Happily thanks to our constitution and our laws we have been allowed to be born and live. Some wish to ensure that the biggest ordeal for future generations here will be surviving the nine months between conception and birth, the period in our lives according to the scientists, of most rapid growth and development in all our life. (See the excellent BBC series the Extraordinary Making of you)
@ every “unborn human being” eh ? Our constitution allows around an average of 25 women a year to end their pregnancies,in Ireland.Our constitution allows over 4,000 women to get information on where they can go to get that “protected” embryo/foetus removed from their wombs,in the UK.
@Brian Madden: The medical mastermind behind the US campaign to have unrestricted abortion across all US states admitted that to secure support they had fabricated polls (85% of the public favouring unrestricted abortion; the reality 5% and exaggerated figures for abortions per annum ‘I knew the figures were false.’ Dr Nathanson.The media and the ‘experts ‘ give different figures most unsourced for the numbers travelling to U.K. for abortion. Some say impossible to say as women want to remain anonymous. Others quote often without sources 3000,3000+ 4000, 4000+ . Take your pick. ‘ Repeating the big lie enough convinces the public’ Nathanson.
@Harry Roberts: no facts are acceptable to the abortion lobby other than those they make up. No truths are acceptable especially the scientifically -backed truth that the life of every human being begins at conception. However abortionists like Dr Guttmacher a president of Planned Parenthood has said ‘ let me say something shocking. I am perfectly willing to grant that life begins at conception let’s not pretend that it (abortion) is not a form of killing’.
@Kay – what woman with an unwanted pregnancy cares if “life begins” at conception ? The only thing that she cares about is when she is not pregnant ,anymore..
@Kay Kehoe, but there is no human being or human personality at or near the point of conception.
@Tom Burke: “Why when an image is presented of a foetus with its distinct human features”
Because the “prolife” groups continue to use pictures of extremely rare late term procedures and in some cases still births. Both of which occur when the viability of the fetus is 0% chance of survival. I ask this every time this subject comes up and no one ever answers. If the average abortion which looks like a heavy period btw is so bad, then why do these groups need to show the exaggerated images? BEcause they are not shocking enough to you as is?? And for the millionth time no one is pro abortion , They are pro choice.. Like your brother and his girlfriend had a choice to keep their pregnancy going.
@Kay Kehoe: Oh look everyone another pro liar. Isn’t that a sin got you lot?
@Fiona deFreyne: Would you agree that there is a unique human life near the point of conception?
@Rob Cahill: Yes, alot of abortions are carried out before 10 weeks gestation , however just because the baby isn’t fully formed and is still growing doesent make it less human. As I said before, the level of development does not determine the value of the unborn, my 7 year old is more developed than my 4 year old. Does my 7 yr old have value? Of course not. As Kay has said the scientific consensus is that life begins at conception. At what stage of gestation do you believe the unborn become human and therefore deserve protection?What is the unborn? I would be interested to know. I read these comments with interest,why as a society have we forgotten to have debate and show people respect that have opposing views?
@Alan ; no baby in the womb ,ever. We know that 81% of terminations are done before week 10 and that 72% of them are carried out via the abortion pills.Most of the Irish women that are taking those trips, get them carried out at around that stage.But because they have to get the money together,most will have the surgical procedure..Gestational stages are totally different to born stages…They’re always human….
@Tom Burke: you’re actually trying to say that you don’t trust others to make the decision themselves so you want everyone to decide in advance
@Tom Burke: I don’t agree. There is a potential and contingent future human life.
@Alan: “….as a society we have forgotten to have debate and show people respect that have opposing views?” That isn’t as salient a point as you think. To debate whether or not women can have the freedom to choose, is not a debate I want any part of, and I’m a master debater. This is a debatable topic as much as keeping slavery was. Sure, we could debate it, but lets just do the right thing, and not be total dïcks. Women should have the right to choose, that is what I believe, don’t you?
@Kay Kehoe: and let me tell you my story of my best friend when I was a teenager. At aged 15 she found out she was adopted, she didn’t take it too well. Age 17 she’s found dead. This is a true story. It breaks my heart. Not every adoption is a happy story.
@Brian Madden: not in my back yard?
Explain.
I don’t want abortion in anybody’s back yard.
@Rob Cahill: why do you emphasise nobody is pro abortion?
Deep down are you a little bit uncomfortable with it?
What the fxxx is pro choice?
It’s a fluffy label for those who don’t feel comfortable endorsing abortion.
@whiney antis: I am mildly amused at the number of posters who think that pregnancy is the most terrible misfortune to afflict a woman. Pregnancy is not an illness. It brings recognised and researched medical benefits. Pregnancy, especially before 25 years protects against breast cancer as does breastfeeding; protects also against endometrial and ovarian cancer to name just a few of the researched benefits of pregnancy. I have been following posts on the Journal for a number of weeks. Not once have I heard anyone speak of maternal instinct or maternal bonding. Maybe that is because most posters are male. I suspect some who use female soubriquets are also male.
@Sam Glynn: I agree and am sorry to hear about this. Some however can be happy. Certainly there is nothing happier than a happy reunion with a birth mother who discovers that her decision to keep her child and give it up for adoption has enabled her daughter to grow up, be happily married and give her beautiful grandchildren none of which would have happened without her mother making the generous decision to keep her rape child and have her adopted. Incidentally this rape victim told her story on radio because she was utterly appalled that people were expressing publicly that they wanted people like her to be aborted before they were born. She was shocked and sickened that some think that she, as a person and a mother of two lovely children, should have no right to be born. Horrific
@Kay Kehoe: nobody wanted her to be aborted, that is your usual lies. All people want is for people to have the right to decide for themselves. Without your or my input into the lives of total strangers. By the way I was adopted and really think you have no idea what you’re talking about. I get that you’re biased but there is no need for you to pretend that your outcome is rosy and wonderful by cherry picking. Everyone person is different, every adoption, every pregnancy and it’s circumstances. One hard and fast rule cannot be applied to all circumstances.
@Dave O Keeffe: I agree and have already said that adoption can be a different experience for different people as indeed can any way of life. No, she did think that what those who say that products of rape should be aborted did refer to her as she was and is a product of rape. She even went so far as to say that she wondered if anyone other than herself and her mother knew the circumstances of her conception or if random people could guess perhaps in her demeanour the circumstances. In any event the blithe call for abortion for products of rape during the current debate naturally sent a chill down her spine and was and is deeply upsetting to her and I am sure other survivors of rape.
Kay Kohoe, you invalidly generalise and even universalise from very limited particulars. It is an enormous which you repeat frequently.
@Fran Lonergan: It is not your place to decide a person made pregnant by rape should not have the option of terminating said pregnancy should they wish. Each victim will have their own immediate reaction to being raped, and each victim will have their own ways of long-term management of the event. Your comment shows an utter lack of understanding of the detrimental effect that a single traumatic event can have on some individuals. Not all, but some. And those some must be allowed all options of help to aid their recovery. My mother was made pregnant through rape. She was forced to marry her rapist. You do not know the full circumstance behind a person’s need for abortion services. Save your judgement for those who truly deserve it.
@Kay Kehoe: I was conceived through rape. I am not a rape child. No person conceived through rape is a rape child. Your use of that terminology belies your ignorance regarding the matter. I have spoken to my mother many times about this subject, and what happened to her. So let me tell you what she and I, actually people for whom such a situation is not academic, think about it. All people made pregnant through rape should have the option of continuing with the pregnancy if they wish to do so. Or terminating the pregnancy if they wish to do so. The person, the only person that matters, is the pregnant person. Not you. Not me. Not anyone else reading this. The pregnant person. That’s it.
@Felicity Hensen: *belies your compassion
@Felicity Hensen: I am sorry if my terminology offended you. I was merely recounting what I heard on radio. It was a perspective that I had not thought about before and I thought it was worth recounting in the current debate as this was this person and her mother’s perspective.
@felicity,
Where in my comment did I speak in absolute terms?
@Kay Kehoe: Your terminology did not cause offence. This is not the first time a person conceived through rape has been used to further the agenda of anti-choice people who seem to think that all people conceived through rape will of course say they’re happy that abortion services weren’t available for their mother to avail of. You use a small number of people who choose to speak about an event most people will never talk about, and think this is how all people conceived through rape think. It isn’t. My mother was not allowed to choose to become pregnant. My mother was not allowed choose whether she wanted to stay pregnant. Her choice in the situation is ALL that mattered.
@Fran Lonergan: When you decide abortion services should not be freely available for all who may need to avail of them, you are speaking in absolute terms.
If you don’t want an abortion, don’t get one. It’s not compulsary so what does it matter if some women choose to have one? Their bodies, their lives, their business, not yours.
@Keith McDonagh: or else use the force and compulsion Constitution and draconian legislation to discriminate against those women who are too poor, too ill, too dependent to legally incapacitated to travel abroad for a necessary abortion.
@Keith McDonagh: Trust me if it wasn’t so convenient for them to just complain about people having a choice they wouldn’t bother.
@Keith McDonagh: you don’t seem to realise that there is a separate human being from the moment of conception according to scientific research based on empirical evidence and observation. It doesn’t bother you at all that abortion is the intentional killing of that separate human being? Leading abortionists like Dr Guttmacher , a president of Planned Parenthood has said, ‘ let me say something shocking. I am perfectly willing to grant that life begins at conception. Let’s not pretend it (abortion) is not a form of killing.’ I suspect that you, like most of the posters here have benefited from the constitutional protection for the unborn but see nothing wrong in removing it for future generations. I suppose you also believe in equality just not for future generations!
@Kay K – It doesn’t bother us in the slightest that the majority of those “human beings” never even make it to utero..It also doesn’t seem to bother the “pro life” movement in the slightest…It also isn’t a separate human being.It’s not even considered a ‘human being’ when around 99% of terminations are carried out…Oh.And it also doesn’t bother us in the slightest to what is going on in America,regards abortion..
@Francis Mc Carthy: Re US most of your arguments including your slogan Pro choice come from the US campaign hardly by coincidence. What you say re not aborting human beings does not accord with the views expressed by leading abortionists like Dr Guttmacher who freely admit that human life begins at conception and that abortion is killing. You cannot kill what is not alive.
The origin and process for the 8th Amendment, Article 40.3.3 of the Constitution, lies in Roman Catholic dogma and the official Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church. The campaign for the Eight Amendment was originated in 1982 by the institutional Roman Catholic Church and fully suppotrted by the Roman Catholic Church until it was passed by Roman Catholic voters in 1983.
@Fiona deFreyne: just because the church endorse something doesn’t mean it’s wrong.
The church also oppose bank robbery.
Your point being?
@ Tom Burca , the point is that we have embedded the doctrinaire and inflexible dogma of an abusive and oppressive Church into what should be our shared Constitution.
@Tom Burke: Really… didn’t the Vatican Bank launder money for the mafia ?Pretty sure the mob have knock over quite a few banks…
@ Jason true.
In addition, some bishops and priests have had to “borrow” Dioscesan funds paid for by church donors so as to compensate victims of clerical child sexual abuse.
@Fiona deFreyne: Ha tony. That’s how I knew it was you. That word ‘dogma’ let you down. See between you and FIONA, it’s has to be the most used word on the journal. Obsessed tony, you really are!
@Caz 17: If you are not familiar with common words, then perhaps you should read more.
@Caz 17, really does one human being have a monopoly on a single word?
I am surprised that a dogmatic and doctrinaire person like you would see the word “dogma” as in any way unique or solipsistic.
@Fiona deFreyne: nah tony. Nobody got monopoly on one word. It’s just a massive relief that there ain’t two such massive tw@ts in the world. Just you gender shifting.
Thanks for your insightful input there Mitch. I’ll go read more.
@Caz 17, keep up your contribution. You will persuade people to change their views with the quality of your arguments and with your reasonable attitude.
@Caz 17: I find that commentators who accuse people of multiple accounts usually are guilty of the same.
@Fiona deFreyne: so how would you go about convincing the large number of people who support 1st trimester abortion to vote repeal without constitutional protection for 2nd & 3rd ?
@Fiona deFreyne: change who’s views tony? I didn’t attempt to contribute anything abortion related. I merely had a little laugh at the repetitious way you do things. Be that as tony or be that as Fiona. I have no intention of trying to change minds. I leave that to you. You clearly have too much time on your hands.
@Deborah Behan: Do you Deborah? Well ha Ive been rumbled!!! I got a laugh out of a recent comment of yours. Complaining about your public sector job and the pressures and wages. Yet you comment all day every day about absolutely anything. I have a life, a job albeit in the private sector, a husband, kids and pals. I do not have multiple accounts as I couldn’t give a rats ass about what you or anybody else thinks. My point being, I more often than not, haven’t the time to comment. Goes with the job and the life. It’s a sacrifice I can happily make.
@lavebeer, by leaving modified statutory protection in place.
@Caz 17, I can understand that you on here to insult and to attack, not to argue, debate, persuade or to advocate.
@Fiona deFreyne: not a strong opener really – nothing to stop fringe elements of a coalition from naming their price to change that statute. You could of course argue that point for anything. Water in more recent times and the clamour to add that to the constitution
@Fiona deFreyne: very true Fiona.
Also true that most sexual abuse is by family members. Your point being?
@Fiona deFreyne: you confuse volume and incidence.
@Fiona deFreyne: Roman Catholic voters you mean Irish citizens exercising their democratic rights, your really scraping the barrel and losing the debate, trying to introduce a fundamentalist element to this debate.
well i love all my kids and would never get rid of any of them .
@Christy Pop: no one is asking you or expecting you to get rid of any of your kids and it is surprising that it would occur to you to do so and then to discount.
I hope that all of your kid pops, the mini pops, are reassured.
@Christy Pop: Cool, nobody is asking you to, and nobody will be forcing any woman in the future to have abortions either. It is about CHOICE!
@Christy Pop: what if your wife got pregnant and it had a fatal foetal abnormality? Would you make her bring it to term? Would you let her wait until the heartbeat stops and then go through childbirth? Would you help her go abroad to access the help she needs to end her pregnancy and then go home and wait for the cremated ashes of your child to be delivered by the post? This is a tragic situation. We need to stop punishing tragedy.
@Christy Pop: you said just last week that you were in your 80′s…I’m sure that your’kids’ are now well able to look after themselves…
@Tom Doyle, he is the fertile octogenarian who keeps changing wives for younger and younger wives to impregnate so as to procreate and multiply.
@Deborah Behan: and back to the less than 1% as a justification. FFA really needs to be a separate vote to ensure passage. Or at least take it out of a retain/repeal discussion
deborah yes is the answer to your first 3 ? because you know doctors do get it wrong somtimes. I believe in letting nature decide.
@Christy Pop: and perhaps nature will be best if you ever become ill or incapacitated.
@Christy Pop: i maybe in my 80s whats that got to do with it
@Deborah Behan: Fatal foetal abnormality is not an official medical term. All of us are destined to die. Diagnoses of FFA have been made where children lived outside the womb. Why is it ok to end a life just because it doesnt tick all the boxes. We stop a foetal heartbeat, deliver a dead baby and consider it humane. If we killed the same child the second it was outside the womb it would be called the murder. So basically where you are located defines you’re right to life.
@Chris Martin: Tell that to my daughter ‘s medical team, who seemed to use it quite a bit.
So you’d be happy with allowing it for fatal foetal abnormalities and not just an inconvenience?. That’s for Debs
@Alan McCartney: Can you explain why you think of an unplanned pregnancy as “an inconvenience” for a start?
To whom is it considered a mere “inconvenience”?
@Donnachaín Ní Uallacháin: We all have fatal foetal abnormality for we are all destined to die from the moment we are conceived. For every single one of us (including those in the womb) its only a question of when. Babies are born healthy and die within weeks or months for different reasons and some of those born with illnesses or special needs can live for longer then expected. Your right to life should not depend on how long doctors guess you are going to live.
@Chris Martin: absolute nonsense
@Christy Pop: i gave you an example just like Deborah had. I remember last year some American artist whom I never heard of before stating her 2 pregnancies were not as important as her career so she had abortions. Would you classify this as inconvenient?. She stated this at a time when it was the craze to openly declare your abortion. You may remember.
@Lavbeer – that is an old chestnut from the “pro life” side that Chris threw out.A healthy newborn baby will be expected to live on average around 70 + yrs.A newborn baby born without a skull will be given on average a couple of hours or days..
It seems to me that the more we dissect the British model of abortion provider the more it proves to be the most fair to women.
@Deborah Behan: it makes sense to have comparable and equivalent access so as not to discriminate against and oppress pregnant women who are too ill, too dependent, too poor or legally incapacitated from travel to the UK.
The British model seems reasonable and practical.
@Fiona deFreyne: All the more reason for Ireland to stop pissing about and repeal the 8th – Irish women may not even have the option of Blighty if our current Health Secretary (whose name begins with ‘C’ and rhymes with ‘Hunt’) carries on at the helm of the NHS. He is already known for 1) being anti-abortion and 2) not giving a rat’s fart about what medical professionals think of him.
@ Harry Whitehead: actually that is a very important and even compelling consideration.
Delicately described on the NHS leader!
Just watching it live ronan Mullen is a disgrace how was he elected
@bmul: NUIG graduates voted for him. It would cause one to pause for thought ass to the nature of the graduates.
I wonder if he will be re-elected after his recent hysterical histrionics and attention seeking.
@bmul: Listening to him now! He is an absolute ar$ehole!
@bmul: he was not any better during the anti SSM debates but his worst time ever was when as Communications Officer for the Diocese of Dublin and Archbishop O’Connell of Dublin, Mullen denied the reality of clerical child sexual abused and sought to attack the victims.
He is a truly unwholesome character. There is an old fashioned whiff of sulphur and brimstone from him.
@bmul: He wasn’t and if senators were elected democratically I don’t think he would be
@bmul: He’s failed dismally when he has stood in democratic elections. The only way he can keep his snout in the trough is via the Dail Creche ie the Seanad. We could have gotten rid of that pointless money pit but idiots voted to retain it, so we’re being punished with Mullen until the next election anyway.
@bmul: He must be saying things that are troubling the conscience of all of you pro abortion supporters ,so keep at it Ronan.
@Michael O’Prey: much of a jump to all those conclusions
I nominate a new word, mullenesque.
It means querulous , combative, obstructive, irrational, tendentious mood fundamentalist, dogmatic and closed to reasomn or sense, tending to use of invective and gamesmanship has a tactic.
@Fiona deFreyne: you have a mirror at home I see
@Fiona deFreyne: love it Lav
@Lavbeer, Mullen = mullenesque. It drifted over your head. I need to be simpler with you.
@Fiona deFreyne: not at all Tony. Your comment read like an autobiography albeit missing the gender issue. I do admire your dedication though
@Fiona deFreyne: I reject your nomination as all the reasons you just listed seem to be a better discription of your own personality
@Fiona deFreyne: You left out uninformed.
THEY say about 4000 women a year travel to england to have an abortion ,IF which i doubt it will happen the pro abortion crowd get there way it will be interesting to see how much the 4000 number a year rises to
@Christy Pop: how many termoknations per pop?
@Christy Pop: Most likely, when it is available here, the numbers will be higher. By how much, though, is hard to say.
Forcing women to travel to the UK for abortions puts a roadblock up for poorer women (ironically enough, poorer women who would struggle MORE with a new child, than those who can afford to go) who cannot afford the flights or accommodation to make the journey. Providing for these women in their own country should be our utmost priority.
@Christy Pop: “get there way ”
Their
ROB , yawn
@Christy Pop: The yawn explains your bad grammar and spelling. All part of being a pro liar.
Off to London for an abortion and a bit of shopping
@Bob McTanned: Sounds implausible.
@Bob McTanned: and there you have it. The cheapening of an emotional and upsetting experience of thousands of women and girls in Ireland by an asshats anonymous account. What a little man you are. Pathetic.
@Bob McTanned: you are a true wonder of medical science.
@Bob McTanned: Enjoy both.
@Bob McTanned: your facial colour is identical to the product emitted from your oral and anal orifices.
@Bob McTanned: your right , throw away society ,
@Christy pop – throw away what ? An embryo ?
@Christy pop:
My right or your right?
Rob cahill your left
The Repeal option should be allowed in the Referendum but will there ever be a Referendum?
What do we want?! Eugenics! When do we want it? Now!*
* Not a chant you’ll hear at a pro-choice demo, but one which is nonetheless silently present, each time, every time.
@Andrew Eager: you need to check the definition of “eugenics”. You have that wrong.
@Andrew Eager: poor effort.
Bit of tweaking maybe, that’ll be it though.
have your say