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SINCE ITS INCEPTION two years ago there has been much said and much written about the Croke Park Agreement by those closely linked to it such as politicians, trade union leaders and ordinary workers in the public service.
But while there has been much talk of increments, redundancies, and reforms there are some who are still a bit confused as to just what exactly the agreement is all about.
Recently we were asked by some readers to explain what the agreement entails, why it is so important, and what it means on a wider level for the country, its economy and its workers. We’re a pretty obliging bunch here at TheJournal.ie, so here’s what you need to know…
What on earth is the Croke Park Agreement?
What will now and forever (or at least until the end of this piece) be known as the CPA is an agreement reached by the government and the Public Services Committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions (ICTU) as well as the Garda and Defence Forces representative associations in June 2010 i.e. public sector workers.
Officially known as the Public Service Agreement – but given the name because of the venue where negotiations took place (in its conference facilities as opposed to on the field!) – it runs from 2010 to 2014 and is broadly a commitment by the public service to “change the way it does business” and in return there is a commitment from the government that there will be no reductions in pay rates or compulsory redundancies within the public sector.
Excluding those who work in semi-state companies like the ESB there are just over 334,000 people working in the public sector which accounts for just under a fifth of the current workforce in Ireland. That makes the agreement a pretty significant one within the Irish labour market.
Okay but what does “changing the way it does business” mean?
Effectively it means that public servants and their managers are required, under the agreement, to work together to change the way in which the public service operates so as that it does so with less money and less staff but more efficiently.
The idea is that while there is less money and less staff the level of service from the public sector does not fall and in some cases it is hoped the level of service can be improved. The primary goal, as it was when the agreement was reached pre-bailout, is to get the budget deficit below 3 per cent of gross domestic product by 2014 and this effectively requires a significant reduction in the number of people working in the public service.
So if we look at health for example, the idea would be that even if there are fewer doctors, fewer nurses and less money for management in the health sector to operate with there would be a change in the way they work to ensure that the same level of service continues. Similarly this would be the case in education where fewer teachers, and less money would still mean that pupils and students would get the same level of education.
The same would theoretically apply in all areas of the public service such as the gardaí – where we know that station numbers are being cut - emergency services and the overall civil service. This also all ties in with the current government’s wider reform agenda with Health Minister James Reilly looking to radically overhaul the provision of health services in Ireland, as just one example.
Hold on, but 2010 was when the last lot were in power?
That’s right. This agreement was reached in the final months of the Fianna Fáil-Green Party coalition government but had broad cross-party support and the current government has pledged to honour the CPA particularly given many of the unions involved in it would have an affiliation to the Labour Party. As recently as April, the Tánaiste and Labour leader Eamon Gilmore said of the CPA: “An agreement is made, you honour the agreement.”
The programme for government commits to reducing staff levels in the public sector by between 18,000 and 21,000 by 2014 compared to the total number at the end of 2010.
So we’re in 2012, halfway through the deal. How has it been working so far?
Well so far we’ve had two annual reports into the deal and how it is being implemented which have claimed that savings of €600 million were made across the public service in the first year and €920 million in the second year. That brings you to around €1.5 billion in total which has been saved so far across the public sector.
Staff numbers have been reduced by 17,300 in those two years which include the exodus of more than 8,000 staff in the early part of this year under an early-retirement scheme. You may remember that was causing particular concern about what contingency plans were in place to deal with these departures and the potential effect on frontline services. There was a lot of talk of redeployment of workers in areas where there would be the type of losses than might impact services.
On top of that we had one of the country’s leading economists Colm McCarthy bemoaning the government’s handling of the retirements as well as criticising the public service pension scheme which he said is underfunded and akin to a “Ponzi scheme”.
But aside from that the two reports so far have indicated the in broad terms the agreement is working and functioning as it was intended. The public service was “doing more with less” the Public Expenditure and Reform Minister Brendan Howlin said at the publication of the second review by CPA Implementation Body recently.
So it’s working fairly well. What should we be worried about?
Well broadly the CPA is working, yes, but there are a myriad of concerns from both the government and the public sector trade unions and representative groups as to whether the CPA as it stands is sustainable for another two years.
Unions such as the country’s largest, SIPTU, are worried about the effect the deal is having on low-paid workers which they believe are being disproportionally affected by roster changes, redeployment, extended working days and loss of allowances.
On the other side of the table, business repesentative groups such as Chambers Ireland have voiced concerns that the deal is not delivering enough savings given the deficit which for the first half of this year was around €9.4 billion. Some within government have also raised concerns about the deal.
Chief among them are the Transport Minister and Fine Gael TD Leo Varadkar who caused controversy in two instances last month. First he suggested that there should be compulsory redundancies in situations where a State agency or quango is closed down. The CPA specifically states that compulsory redundancies will not apply within the public service.
He also suggested that pay increments should be deferred saying that it could save as much as €200 million a year. The CPA makes no mention specifically of increments but commits to there being no further reductions in the pay rates of serving public servants for the lifetime of the agreement.
Unions would view increments as being part of pay rates and also argue that such a reduction in increments would hit the low-paid disproportionately. They also think that allowances, which were in the news this week, are protected under the agreement and cannot be touched by the government. Some teaching unions have gone as far as to say that they will ballot for industrial action if they are cut in anyway.
Given the economic situation, surely Varadkar is not being unreasonable in suggesting some changes?
Well it should be noted that the CPA came about after two years where €3 billion had been saved from the public service pay and pensions bill with a considerable effect on the public service. This came about through pay increases due that were not paid, a general moratorium on recruitment and promotion, a pension related deduction of, on average, 7 per cent applied to all public servants’ earnings and a reduction in rates of pay at the beginning of 2010.
From a public service worker’s point of view they made significant sacrifices leading up to the deal and have agreed to significant sacrifices in the deal whereby they are committing to doing more with less staff and less money at their disposal. In return they will keep their jobs and their pay rates which for some, worried about Ireland’s deficit and the overall efficiency of the public service, is not sacrifice enough.
Those who question the effectiveness of the CPA cite the annual bill for sick leave of around €26 million and the myriad of public service allowances that were disclosed this week and think that more needs to be done to cut the cost of Ireland’s public service.
What does the public think?
In April an Irish Times/Ipsos MRBI poll found that the majority of the public wanted the deal either renegotiated or abolished. The opinion poll found that 16 per cent believe the deal should remain in place, 43 per cent want it modified in some way, and 22 per cent want it abolished. But nearly a fifth (19 per cent) have no opinion at all on the deal.
Those who were polled are likely to have varying reasons for wanting the deal to be altered in some way. Some believe that as it stands, the CPA is not delivering enough savings in the public service and that more needs to be done in terms of there being a provision for redundancies and for pay rates to be cut.
Others believe that the deal as it is structured now is not fair on the low-paid workers in the public sector in that the changes that are coming into effect are more likely to affect those on lower wages than those earning higher salaries.
So clearly there are issues, disagreements and splits but what’s going to happen?
The deal has another two years to run. While there will no doubt be plenty of talk about it in the months and years ahead the official line for the moment remains that the government is committed to it as long as the unions are committed to it too. The unions will maintain the line that the agreement must be preserved while holding the threat of industrial action and possible strike if it is not.
Speaking in the Dáil recently, Brendan Howlin – whose responsibility it is it to oversee the implentation of the agreement – said: “So long as Croke Park and the unions signed up to it deliver their side of the bargain, the government is committed to delivering its side.”
Politically, there is a strong feeling within the Labour Party that the agreement needs to be honoured. While on the face of it there is also a commitment from Fine Gael to the deal there is, as evidenced by the comments of a senior party figure like Varadkar, a belief that the agreement may need to be revisited. At the very least there is a frustration with the limits it puts on reform of the public service among some in the senior coalition party in that there can be no sackings or pay cuts.
Despite a series of austerity laden budgets and unemployment this week hitting just short of 15 per cent there has been little in terms of industrial strife in Ireland. Unlike Greece, people here have not been on the streets in their masses and that has a lot to do with the presence of the CPA which accounts not only for significant portion of the workforce but just under half of those in the workforce that are members of unions.
And for that reason the success of the Croke Park Agreement will be largely dependent on the success, or not, of the economy in the months and years ahead.
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Bye bye labour.. Will be adding you to the PD’s, Greens collection soon enough!
Who could trust a single word of manifesto from them again!?
Agreed but begs the question who to vote for next time??? FG??? FF ???…Christ, SF?????????
Agreed also Graham.. The last government took away our economic independence .. This government has taken away our hope! All the hope of change!!
We need a complete seed change for next election
Bye bye Fine Gael. Your old fogie voters will be dead by the next election and nobody’s replacing them.
Hopefully sooner rather than later
Direct Democracy Ireland. If not them, ANYBODY but FG/Lab/FF. anybody!!!!!!
Agreed Scrap. Direct democracy may be a slow moving behemoth, but at least it’s honest and true to the meaning of democracy, unlike the thieving charlatans that claim to represent us. They’re worth a punt, I think, and even if we’re mistaken, the beauty of their thinking, is that we can correct that mistake during their term of office, unlike the current system.
savages, the lot of them.
Well thats Colm Keavney buried come next election, and it can’t come soon enough….
Colm is a wind bag more hot air than an air balloon,he might be on the dole himself in the near future
I think there’ll be more Labour stooges than Keavney cleaning out their desks come the next election.
So where was labour when this was voted through?
Phil Hogan will also be voted out of office in 2016.
U probably did not vote lab anyhow.
I voted Sinn Fein, but only after I heard happy Gilmore say “frankfurts way or labours way” I knew then he was a spoofer.
Labour really need to do the decent thing and change there name.
How about LAY-BARE
Labor need to do the decent thing and WITHDRAW from the deadbeats within Fine Gael. Otherwise, they will suffer the same fate as Fine Gael by loosing the next election.
the Yellow Stain Party , that sounds fitting for them
That’s labours death warrant signed.
They like fg are going to be destroyed at the next election (or sooner).
Each and every one of the lieing decietful two faced paracites will pay dearly for their treason.
oh god, does that mean Fianna Fail again, I’ve got a sinking feeling about this one! They seem to be on RTE 1 any time I switch onto their radio news programmes! All I’ll have are left wing independents, if there are any left in my neighbourhood…… slim pickins indeed!
@Mike- just a reminder. By any barometer, Fine Gael’s support is holding in the polls.
Good man Vincent.
God love you buddy,you must be shattered trying to follow all the threads of undiluted hatred for the people you adore.
Anyway back on track and not to delay you too long.
The only true polls that matter are at the ballot boxes.
Now will you ever just admit that your wrong and your sitting on the bow of the Titanic.
Right as usual, sir:
http://www.thejournal.ie/opinion-poll-fine-gael-support-down-698309-Dec2012/
@voodoo. Poor you. You seemed a bit excited about catching me out there. Unfortunately, no poll is ever taken in isolation. That one was taken a week after the Savita case- an issue which even the pollsters admitted skewed the poll in a way unlikely to be repeated. So when I said barometer I was talking about the dozen other polls post election that showed FG holding about 30%. Even the SBP poll had FG the largest party in the country, by the way. So em, I was right.
Fine Gael’s support is now dropping and it will almost certainly drop significantly lower over the coming 3 years.
The next government will most likely roll back Fine Gael’s regressive property tax (if not abolish it like in 1977).
GOOD RIDDANCE TO FINE GAEL.
@Joe- Great. I don’t want to pay the property tax either. Oh wait. Wee problem. The country’s broke and we have to find the money somewhere. So once you’ve abolished the cuts that FG have brought in, how are you going to pay for dole, nurses, teachers, Gardai. Your answer gets no point if it involves leaving the EU.
Vincent – there are alternative avenues for tax rises to replace property tax. For example: the top 10%, tax breaks, etc.
@Reg This is the top 10% who already pay 40% of the nations taxes and who are the very ones who will fuel growth. Good lad.
Vincent – abolish pension tax reliefs = €2.3billion, Tobin Tax = €500million (this wouldn’t effect the vulnerable in society in the slightest!!!) don’t pay the unsecured Anglo Irish bank bond holders = priceless!!!! There are alternatives your just to blind (or unwilling) to take note of them. All the above are progressive measures. One thing that annoys me is that the government says its legacy will be increase in employment and a growing/competitive economy, yet any student studying economics could tell u that the above can’t be achieved through regressive budgets….. This is a regressive budget so how will the government leave a legacy any better than what Fianna Fáil left us???
This is true. I’m fully realistic about the mess FF landed this country in, and I realise the bank debt deal, which has to be policy imperative #1 for this government, won’t come overnight, so I willing to accept a few tough budgets.
But, the lack of progress on imperative #1 could best be described as abject, the lies on promissory notes were particularly offensive: http://thechatteringmagpie14.blogspot.ie/2012/12/debunking-government-promissory-note.html
And then there’s the fact that the last two budgets have disproportionately targeted low and middle incomes, with flat rate measures like VAT increases, property tax and welfare cuts. The sole argument against raising taxes on €125k+, that it’d scare off multinationals, is so palpably absurd that it’d be laughable if it weren’t such a serious issue. None of which can be blamed on Fianna Fáil.
I’d be very interested to see how the barometer shows in February or March, Vinny, because by this rate it doesn’t seem like this Blueshirt regime is going to break the party’s perfect record of never managing to be re-elected.
@kevin- your definition of “progressive” leaves something to be desired. For example, defying the Troika and not paying unsecured bondholders, cessation of funding…. Bankruptcy. Goodbye EU. That’s progressive in your book, is it? As for a legacy, this Government will stand for election in 3 years having reduced our total debt via a bank deal, reduced interest rates on our debt from when they took over from FF and sent the Troika home and re-established economic sovereignty. That’s how they’ll have a better legacy than FF.
@voodoo. The biggest risk to FG getting re-elected is Labour. If Labours vote collapses, FG mightn’t have a coalition partner. But then who could replace them? Nobody would want to get into bed with either SF or FF. This site is misleading. The core FG vote of 30% is holding. Don’t forget, for all the whining FG have honoured their commitment to leave income tax alone. A whole lot of the middle class will reward them for that.
Also, Vincenzo, your poor long-suffering top 10% take over 30% of the country’s income, more than the bottom 40% of citizens combined. They are also the only group who actually saw their disposable income increase in the immediate aftermath of the crash, by some 8%.
Also, the idea that the very wealthy are some kind of magical “wealth creators”, such that taxing them hurts growth has been shown to be false on numerous occasions:
http://www.marketplace.org/topics/economy/commentary/taxing-rich-good-economy
Singularly unsurprising that the Blueshirts want them treated like some kind of protected species, mind.
WE stop paying bondholders, developers in NAMA, Bailing out German and European Gambling Banks,and we stop paying out €4.25 million to tds and a senator in one constituency in a five year period, see farther down,, No Govt hhas the right morally or legally to give its citizens only the choice of r death, and unfortunately thats a choice that many of this countries citizens will be forced to make, Hunger, Suicide, Disease,
IS it that Mr Kenny’s favorite book i Mein Kampf, and has he delusions of being the originator of the 4th Reich., for Angela?
@Voodoo- explain please your “30% of the country’s income “figure
@Mick- it’s amazing neither FF nor FG thought of that. Which is strange as you would have thought there’d be more votes in that then vicious budget cuts. Do you think maybe its because paying bondholders is a condition of the EU money keeping this nation afloat? Would that make a bit more sense, do you think?
Fine Gael’s core vote is falling. It was only a matter of when, not if.
——————————————————————————————————————————————————-
The latest polls indicate a steep drop in support for Fine Gael.
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The middle class will dump FG because of the increase in work-related taxes.
Vincent – you obviously didn’t read my comment carefully because if you did you would have noticed that I did not once suggest turning our back on Europe!!!! In fact I am proposing measures that are supported by Europe!!!!
I didn’t define “progressive” so I don’t understand how there’s much to be desired???
You say the government will get a deal on our bank debt (which as we know is changing the promissory notes into some other instrument and putting off repayment to sometime in the future). Yet you promise economic sovereignty in three years time!!!! I’m afraid on this occasion your definition leaves much to be desired for as long as we owe money to creditors we do not have economic sovereignty!!! The government is planning repayment of debts as far away as 2022 so I fail to see how in three years they will have payed off all our creditors!!!!
On the 30%, that’s the proportion of the annual income that the top 10% take in this country – pretty consistent in NERI and ESRI figures, would get links but I’m just off to bed. Google is your friend, I’m not making it up.
Anyway, it gives me no pleasure to say this, Vincent, but I have a sinking feeling that Fianna Fáil are going to be back in government come 2016. The real middle classes, the people earning in or around the average industrial wage, are among the hardest hit by FG’s economic policies, Labour have betrayed them, the Sinners are still a bit rough around the edges to be a major force, which leaves us with …
Also seems to me that there are plenty of people just waiting for it to become respectable to openly support FF again, I think that kinda came through in the Presidential campaign. Of course, it’s a damning indictment of irish political culture that these are the choices, and the door is wide open for a new party or way of doing politics, and I genuinely hope I’m wrong about this, but that’s how I see it.
The country is not “broke” – Ireland is the fifth wealthiest country in Europe. Wealthy must pay their fair share of taxes.
@Danny- I said this country- not its people. By the way, if your on 100k you pay a whole lot more tax than someone on 35k. The fire brigade doesn’t come any faster to your house and you don’t get to drive on any better roads- so your definition of “fair share” is open to interpretation
@voodoo- you disappoint me. That they’re earning 30% means they’ve done we’ll for themselves. They should be applauded not derided and targeted for higher taxes. They’re already paying more than the average man. As for FF, I fear you’re right but keep hoping that while Micheal is their leader the last Government won’t be forgotten…
Derision, envy or moral judgment doesn’t even come in to it, it’s just practical economics. Taxing those who already have some to spare does much less harm to demand, ergo the economy as a whole, than trying to wring blood out of a stone with low and middle earners. It’s just common sense … here’s a Nobel laureate, he can probably explain it a bit better than I can:
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/2012/05/joseph-stiglitz-the-price-on-inequality
vincent,,,im sure they thought of it,,,Iceland thought of it too,,they had the balls to do it,,and we were told Iceland would become a wasteland,,it didnt, and they are doing well again,,and all has been forgiven by the banks, bondholders,etc etc, oh yeah, they also jailed the bankers and bailed out their people,,,the fckn cheek of them.
agreed…..but they will still be laughing……still get fat pensions AND some will return to their jobs (kept open for them while graduates emigrate)
“I said this country- not its people”
Sums it all up: Fine Gael don’t care about their constituents. The chickens will come home to roost in 2014 and 2016. FG will likely become wiped out like FF in 2011.
I suppose its Labours way celebrating the 100 year in been, it will take them another 100 years to recover. How do they expect their founder members to rest in peace with this betrail of the principles of the Labour Party.
Most people don’t think they have skin in the game — only those with income close to 100K effectively tell Fine Gael what to do. Even when the minority wanting to soak the “poor” start getting pink slips, they wouldn’t know what hit them — same primitive people who voted for Fine Gael to begin with.
I think every member of the government should be given one day’s work experience with a highly dependent person, with no assistance from anyone whatsoever before they get to vote.
A day of infamy in Labour’s history. Backbenchers such as Michael McNamara have lost any shred of credibility. The likes of Rabbitte lost theirs many months ago.
This government has no regard for any citizen except if you are a TD, or so called bankrupt developer. They really do look out for each other.Some developers are getting massive salaries of €100k + from nama for doing feck all, yet a person who looks after someone with a chronic illness gets cut by €300
Some of the failed developers are getting salaries of €200k priorities I guess…
We are all full of sh**e … We should be out there protesting with the carers and for a u turn on property tax or additions to be made for those who paid vast amounts of stamp duty.. We talk talk talk but no action … An independent body like the journal should organise a protest … But a protest like we have never seen before … No union nutbag banners , no Sinn Fein banners , people before profit banners or the Judean people’s front banners … Just real people with real issues, we should pick a day when there is a big EU meeting in Dublin Castle and fill Dame street … I’m genuinely perplexed how we have lost the fighting spirit and turned into a nation of submissives.
Big protests planed for Friday in Dublin but how many will turn out when the government looks at the Croke park agreement they will have to in force pay cuts then the unions will have their members out on the street by the way I really think Croke park has bought the public sectors silence
Yes Dodzer, thats the style I would like. It would be great if the Journal could organise a protest.
Brian Lenihan/FF cut the blind and disabled pension so as to save 10 million. These cut respite and carers to save the same, even though both attacked people that if they stepped back would cost the state hundreds of millions in care cost.
Next time you see Kenny and Martin up preaching from the pulpit about right and wrong and caring for the others, remember their actions. They are having a laugh at these people.
colm keavney a guy who criticises aspects of the budget yet still votes it through shows what our public representatives are all about all talk and no action
im wishing a full dose of norwiegen scabies for all attached to our current and previous gubbermints
It’s nice how Joan Burton is so sympathetic, and I see where she’s coming from, of course. They have to make cuts, and that is obviously going to come from the most vulnerable and the most needy in society. After all, that has been the Irish way for generations, and tradition is tradition!
Give back the €1.1 million spent illegally by FG/Lab on the last referendum plus the legal experiences. Now that would be a sum that would make a real difference. When do you think FG/Lab will cough up for that Bernie?
Labour just buried itself
They should reverse the Respite Care cuts. Disgraceful it is.
Agreed
Td salaries should be cut by 50 percent. They not evening the other 50 percent what a nation we live in.
Fine Gael wanted respite care cuts.
@reg- and your point is?
This hurts Labour more than FG. No way would the row back. Their that deluded FG think annihilating Labour will give them a majority. Next govt will be a new political party + a slew of single issue independents. SF cud well be kingmakers.
I’m pretty sure the next government will be a FF/FG coalition.
The next government will be FF/ SF coalition.
Great. For once the dole parasite family in my estate. Who WOULDN’T work even at the height of the boom. With their 13 kids they expect the rest of us to pay for, will loose more in this budget than I will.
Unfortunately you don’t hear about the widespread abuse in the media. Only the extreme cases of genuine hardship who ultimately suffer cuts because of these parasites.
That is great for you Mike but frankly i’m more concerned with the good of the country rather than your rage at a family of wasters you know. Why don’t you go over and kick the tar out of their father and make him get a job and then you can stop backing economically destructive policy.
Stephen. If you stopped all the rampant welfare abuse in the system then the other cuts wouldn’t be nessicary. The total welfare package going into this one house alone is over 60000 euro a year.
joan burton, you should hang your head, you have brought shame upon us!
mike if your aware of “rampant welfare abuse” have you reported it? Does your “dole parasites” care for somebody at home? If they do are you aware what it would cost the state i,e, the tax payer to care for that person if your “parasites” said feck this I’m not doing it?
Hey Mike why don’t you go calculate childcare costs for 13 children while your calculating welfare costs. Always two sides to a coin.
Mike. Welfare abuse has been cracked down on and the Troika do not believe it is rampant, a problem yes, but no more than any where else.
What will happen if Irish Welfare was perfect, the first in the world to be so. FG and FF will break themselves worrying that their mass corruption would be exposed.
It’s actually higher. Basic welfare, Childrens allowance and rent allowance for 2 adults and 13 dependants is over 63000 euro. In addition to that they also get the additional benefits like medical cards, back to school, esb, bins etc. For any worker to take home that much they would need a salary in excess of 100000 euro before tax.
Nobody get’s free ESB Mike, and while i’ll assume its in Dublin ( probably wrong there..shitstorm incomming ) nobody gets free bin collections, used to be part subsidised if on welfare but not since the service was sold to private contracters, but anyway I think your being harsh, while your view is the parents are milking the system by staying at home and having 13 children, its not the childrens fault and cuts to childrens allowance and the back to school allowance will ultimatly hurt the children, can you really relish the prospect that 13 innocent kids will suffer just so you can feel great?
No one gets that much on the dole no one.
They would recive 36410 per year or 700.20 per week for 2 dependant adults and 13 children under 18. And 23136 in childrens allowance for 2012 total of 59546.
In 2013 they would recive same social welfare payment but children allowance would be 21480, total would be 57890.
Difference of 1656.
Still less than Joan Burton gets for lying her way into office. And she has only 1 child, think her child is infact a adult now, cant bother reserching that part.
I came from a big family myself, 9 of us and I can only imagine 13 kids, unless you have kids you can’t understand the costs involved, I’m not agreeing or condoning the family Mike is talking about, but he’s the one hiding behind a fake twitter account crying about welfare fraud, he also refused to try calculate childcare for 13 kids. The end of the day if the parents actions are right or wrong people can only guess, but the fact is this budget will hurt the 13 kids much the same as it will hurt a family on welfare with 2 kids or even familes in average jobs with kids. People that don’t have children have no clue how much they cost, they all assume ahh sure there litle they don’t eat much..ahh sure kids clothes don’t have vat what you complaining about, ahh sure this ahh sure that..ahh sure people without kids should think hard and fast before opening there mouth on a subject they have no idea about, colleges ect don’t offer degree’s in parenting and being a parent, so unless you have kids everything you say is a asumption.
NATIONAL STRIKE PEOPLE this is an outrage This Government will rue this day for generations along with the property tax on people’s homes
GET OUT RESIGN NOW THE LOT OF YOU TRAITORS THE LOT OF YOU how dare yea call yourselves IRISH
TRAITORS TRAITORS TRAITORS.
vincent people are angry they have every right to .who are you to decide somebodys mad your comment is rude
Vincent ,no need to be so smart arsed in your comments ,Bernadette is entitled to her opinions without rudeness from you ,i think you should apologise
Vincent has no class so will not apologise.
You really are a moral disgrace, Vincent.
Kellyanne and Marion Mr V.D. Is an arrogant and very rude being.But as I said on a couple of occasions to him here in the Thejournal.ie I have a voice because of our forefathers whom I am very proud of and I am disgusted with what this Government are doing but Mr.V.D seems to disrespect anyone who does not agree with ENDA Kenny and Co., I pay all my share and have done for 40 yes and more as do my family.I laugh when I see Mr.V.D so rude to all who pull up all the blue shirts but as my late Dad would say ” sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me” and as I am a law abiding citizen I really am entitled to my opinion Thanks girls
Regardless of what Vincent said, I disagree with subsequent posters. To call a man a traitor to Ireland is a bit too far for me. Whether you like Enda Kenny or not, or Bertie before him, I don’t believe either of them can be classed as traitors. I don’t think that either of them, nor any other Taoiseach we have had, have did anything deliberately to undermine Ireland.
Vincent reflects the characteristics of his beloved FG beautifully. Innate arrogance and contempt for those not inside the golden circle.
FG will always bend the knee to those they perceive to be powerful and ruthlessly exploit those in a weaker position. Morally bankrupt quislings.
12-12-12 the day labour died
Fianna Fáil TD Willie O’Dea said there was “no reason why we can’t have ample time to debate these amendments”.
He said the changes to the Social Welfare Bill are wide ranging and will have a “huge impact on people’s lives”.
TO FIANNA FAIL, SHUT UP! YOU PUT US WHERE WE ARE NOW! and to Labour shame on you.
One of the worst men that this country has produced in a generation, certainly the worst Limerick has.
kill the tsars! oh sorry wrong revolution….hang on though…………………….
Rise like Lions after slumber
In unvanquisable number,
Shake your chains to earth like dew,
For we are many and they are few.
I Live in the Laois /Offally Constituency, we have 5 tds Sean Fleming, Barry Cowen, Charlie Flanagan, Brian Stanley, Marcella Corcoran Kennedy and one Senator John Whelan, They will , in one year take from the Taxpayers a total of €841747.32. in Salaries and expenses, thats with no consideration for any other allowances, business income, etc etc. Over a 5 year period that equates to an average of €701456.10 each PA,. Senator Whelan will fall a little short , he will ONLY get €1956.17 PER WEEK , and he was not elected by the People of L/O.For the 5 elected TDs The weekly break down, Salary + Exs Is as follows, B Stanley SF,€2888.80 pw. C Flanagan FG,€2860.04pw. S Fleming FF€2683.12pw. B Cowen FF €2888.80.pw. M CorcoranKennedy, FG €2910.34.pw.
That equates to a total payment to 6 individuals of €4208736.60. Just under €4 and a quarter million. Somebody on an annual wage of €30000.00 would need to work for 140.3 years to earn that much,,,or 6 people would need to work 23 and a half years to collectivly earn the same amount. Granted this is a 5 seat constituency. but if the figures are applied across 226, the total number of TDs and Senators, it is a mind boggling amount of money each for a few months work each year. The figures quoted are for back benchers and make no provision for being on subcommittes, ministerial roles, and a plethora of other allowances that can be obtained depending on how favoured you may be by the Leaders of your party. It also makes no allowance for “severance money , if they do not get re-elected, or for pensions, I would imagine that an awful lot of the present crowd will be claiming the “severance money” after the next election, whenever that might be, I have asked each of these individuals to give me one, just one valid reason as to why they should recieve these level of payments, I have not recieved one single reply from any of them, I wonder why. There is also a practice in L/O , when a Co Councellor is elected to Dail Eireann, a member of his family, Partner, wife, son , daughter, brother ,sister, , is co-opted on to the Council to replace him/her unelected, Nepotism or what. Sinn Fein will trot out the old chestnut , that they only take the average Industrial wage, Irrelevant , the remainder may or may not go to the party to fund,god only knows what, it does not benefit the taxpayer, Most ordinary working people would live very comfortably on the expenses alone. There is a Tinny Rattle out of anyone on this kind of money championing the cause if the poor and disadvantaged,Mr Whelan, Mr Fleming, Mr Stanley,Mr Cowen,give us a break.
Will Mr Kenny use the old catch all that he has been using since the election , that Pay and Expenses, pensions etc etc are a legacy issue from the previous administration.
Any Government is only as good as its opposition,,,and the Fact is we have had a Practically non existant Opposotion for the last twelve years or more. Politics is a serious business, it can mean life or death for some people,and this administration would be appearing to chose death over life for many citizens, Savita, The Disabled, the poor, The Disadvantaged, The indepted, for what,? , to get claps on the back from the Troika, Merkel, The Banks, The Developers, et al. There should be a case for Crimes against Humanity taken against this administration.
Mick. I doubt many read such a long post but I did. I’m as fed up as uabout the status quo. FF=FG=Lab=greedy self serving gombeens. It’s time for change. We need a wholesale clear out of these parasites. http://www.DirectDemocracyIreland.ie. check it out
Well said sir!
Iceland tackled their problem in a totally differnt way,,,they bailed out the people and jailed the bankers and corrupt officials, and burned the bond holders,,what happened,,they had a couple of tough years and they are now well on the way to recovery and prosperity,, they survived better than us,,
There is one curious thing though,,,,you will see or hear very little about what Iceland did,,why is that,,THEY DONT WANT YOU TO KNOW THAT THERE IS ANOTHHER WAY>
Well said very detailed,email some journo and see what will happen, why are the media so slow to go into real depth with is? The political class that has/is getting rich off the back of the Irish people. If it was happening in France they would be a revolution already it will have to come to a head here too I hope anyway!!!!!!!!!!
Mike, a good comment. I knew that politicians were overpaid, but I didn’t think it was that much. The question for people is, how can it be changed. FF, FG, LAB, SF, seem to me to be all the same. I can see the need to cut costs, but how to do it in fair manner.. now there is a 6 million deutchmark question.
And you could add to that the cost of Urban and County councillers Mick.
Are our political classes so stupid as to not understand the mood of the people? Or maybe thay don’t give a s**t ?
Oh and what happened to the Senate abolition promise ?
fantastic post mick and it shows up what is really wrong with this country, any cut’s should have come from the top down, but these self serving hypocrites only know how to hit the poor and vunerable, those on s/w ar low pay or disability dont ‘contributr huge amounts to party funds ,so in their eyes we are expendable, they only care about loading up the pockets of themselves and there cronies, it matters not which party is in power, there all the same, beoken promises and lies are all you will get from these gurriers.
Would you eff.off with that shite!
Bernie,
Did Hogan give back the €30,000 spent on a holiday to Rio? Didn’t think so…
I agree with Willie O Dea for once. But would it make any difference as the dictatorship of Enda and his cronies has made his edicts? If this is a good form of democracy, I would hate to see the bad ones. It has brought about people like Joan Burton saying things they can hardly believe in.
Most dangerous place in Irish politics is between her and a microphone
Im sure most workers or social welfare recipients would have taken a few cent per week hit collectively instead of carers getting hit with a broad €300 but again our mindless elected do things arseways.
So the rights of the majority of the people of Ireland have been ignored over the the non secured bond holders in AIB who are payed billions, who spends money in our country ? not the rich but us the real people, ie those that need to buy bread to survive, and now the tax man is allowed to enter your home without a warrant to gather the information of house tax or whatever its called now. We need real information like how the money people of Ireland are going to to hit . Am I biased yes as my jobs include autistic, elderly, other medical conditions I’m self employed or try to but will better off on the dole, I wont do that and neither will I pay taxes or charges that I cannot afford. Burn the bankers first not the HONEST PEOPLE .
Don’t you have to be throwing stones at people in respite or something.
If ever there was a time for a revolution, what we need is the next goverment to strip these lying sack of shits all the benifits they aquired for the time they spenting screwing over the Irish people. No pension’s or benifits, infact any that lied to get into office should be forced to repay salary earned while in office also. Only job in the country that lying to get is acceptable it seems and what worse is they can’t be fired like any other employee. They work for the people yet the people have to wait to fire them until it suits them to call a election.wtf! Time for a change, don’t hold to your election promise’s then get the out, simple as. And while we are at it the Ceann Comhairle’s should be a member of the public like extended jury duty instead of the current biased piece of crap sitting there now, if you look closely you can nearly see Enda’s hand.
But there is far worse to come folks, watch what happens over the next 3 budgets.
@mick. Agreed. They keep saying this is the worst but this is based on fairy tale growth rates. Next year will be worse. Work for nothing and give up ur first born. But at all costs, protect the Coke Perk Aggrandisement
Willie o’Dea calling for debate on votes. Well that beats Banagher.
ahh dere willie have your herard about de brother, hope that recorder isn’t on. de brothel down the street.
What a joke the Dáil is, that a man like that is still allowed sit in it. Is their any parliament in Europe that would tolerate that rubbish, no course not.
I had thought about guns, but machetes would be much more satisfying…
Listening to the nauseous tones of Enda Kenny talking and pontificating about jobs, economic recovery, growth, progress, fairness – one can only compare it to Comical Ali saying that the Iraqi army had chased the Americans across the border when you could clearly see the US tanks rumbling down the streets behind him.
Yup 2 men with no credibility.
*Despicable. Damn u spell checker
any reason given as to why only 138 out of the 166 TDs voted?!
The system is convoluted, if a goverment member is not there then a opposition member lose’s there vote to even it out and not give advantage to either side if say the FG fun bus was stuck in traffic loaded with TD’s coming back from some Bankers whine and dine with pass the brown envelope. If you ask me the system is wrong, if the votes important make yourself available.
@ Derek Boyle
I never knew that. If its true that is bordering on a dictatorship!
whine whine whine. We voted them in cos we had no choice. The next shower Will b as bad. If kenny had any ability or talent he would have made his mark long ago. G Fitzgerald knew he was a clown and left him to the man the parish pump in the wesht. That’s what we have, a pompous little gombeen shit. We are doomed. DOOMED I TELLS YA!!!!!!! EVEN THE BLUESHIRTS WANTED RID OF HIM. Oh my God, somebody hand me a valium…….
Sam, I am in agreement with you…I don’t think we had another choice. However, did Garrett Fitzgerald not find himself in the same position as Kenny? He had a first term that lasted a couple of years because of cuts that he had to make when the country was broke and his second was longer, but also unpopular, because of further cuts. If he was doing that now, would he be more or less popular than our current leader? The curse of Irish democracy… vote for unnecessary giveaways and pan the people who are tasked with reversing the folly. Unfortunately we are left with a previous government who were populist and a current government who appear to be reneging on their promises…. where to next?
Direct democracy perhaps Jim. We’ve tried everything else, haven’t we?. It’s admittingly a slow and cumbersome version of democracy, but still, although primitive, is actual democracy. Put simply, if the minority in power, try to hijack the constitution, then the majority not in power, can revoke that power, even though it may be done at a snails pace.
I’ve been watching it live all evening and learned a thing or 2. Mind you got very confused at the way they work too. I’d like to know how TDs can vote electronically when they aren’t even in the chamber?
But also amendments to the budgets SW bill that I’ve not heard about . Like Sunday will no longer be classed as a rest day, any overpayments/rent arrears will be taken back at 15% of core SW rates. Lone parents will lose benefits for children over 7 from July. These are just a few that we’re discussed after the vote. These are just a few amendments. From what I could make out they don’t need to vote on any of these.
So the Social Welfare Bill 2012 has been passed!
This is disappointing considering the people it will affect are the people who need it most. I’m lucky enough to have never needed S.W. assistants but I know friends who rely on this money to try make the best they can with this money for their children. This surely is a direct attack on unemployed & disabled people, who never wanted to be in the position they are in. Labour & F.G. have shown total disregard to the people of Ireland.
Shame on you labour.
Shame on Fine Gael who are the architects of these savage cuts.
We gotta get Kenny out. The poor man thinks unemployment is stabilizing.
at present we cannot change much within this government, they are rotten to the core. They dont seem to understand the meaning of fair, vulnerable or poverty. We can protest, and show our anger. We can campaign at their individual offices, but in the immediate future with those who will be affected we cannot change the governments mind to lessen their help.
But we can do something, we can offer help to someone caring for an elderly parent, a disabled spouse, a handicapped child. Even the simple thing of seeing if they need a hand to get shopping in, cookinhg done, housework etc, we can all do something. With older ppl, seriously most older ppl have kids and grandkids, would it be that hard (esp if its a larger family) to sort out a bit of extra fuel, or to gain the trust of an eldery neighbour who has noone, to help them out with meals etc…we can continue to be mad and angry, but we can also begin to rebuild our communities from the ashes that the celtic tiger gave us, and rebuild on a solid stable base of communities..but we all need to next time when ge comes around need to remember if it sounds to be good to be true it must be a fake
We are not powerless Laura. We are governed by consent in a democracy and that consent can be removed by the people at any time. Mass civil disobedience is a powerful tool as demonstrated recently when the government failed to collect the Household tax from 40-50% of those eligible to pay. All the threats of court cases and €2500 fines have evaporated in the face of mass non compliance. This protest will continue and expand with a mass refusal to pay the Property Tax.
@Coddler- I was going to say good luck escaping the household charge when it’s taken directly from your wages. And then I thought about it….
The household charge will be abolished either way, Vincent. The two main opposition parties will nullify it after the next election (FF & SF). Once abolished, Fine Gael will be remembered as a party that forced a tax upon the people and this will have long-term consequences for Fine Gael’s image for decades. People will always be reminded of this.
@Mark- Honestly. I don’t mean to be unnecessarily antagonistic but you need to grow up. People outside of the left wing enclave that is “the Journal” will remember that 1). Fine Gael inherited a bankrupt country 2). That cuts were consequently inevitable and 3). That Ireland is the only country in Europe that doesn’t have a household charge. Reasonable people will know that the state was ALWAYS going to have to stick their hands in our wallets and while they’ll not like it, they know where the blame resides for this situation arising- and it’s not with FG. By the way- I hate to tell you. There’s a whole new raft of cuts coming and you won’t like those either. But those who opted against the Ostrich “why are FG bringing in all of these cuts?” approach will measure FG on whether the cuts are working in terms of stabilising our Republic. If the country’s in a better state than it was when they came to power, FG will be fine at the polls next time out. I know that will disappoint you. Realism is a great characteristic to have in your core vote.
Okay Vincent, you have your own spin on the airwaves but it isn’t part of a bigger picture: the two main opposition parties (FF & SF) will still have a larger per cent of vote come 2016. FG alone won’t have enough to make it by themselves. And considering most Independents are liberal, they are unlikely to become backbenchers for FG. That’s THREE against ONE party
As for the “blame Fianna Fail”, I think people have gotten over the Fianna Fail stigma as recent polls signify. People are now asking how worse could it actually be with Fianna Fail. Sinn Fein are also becoming a credible opposition who would care for the people. Sure people knew cuts were inevitable BUT the issue is the how these cuts and taxes are carried out.
FF and SF and Independents have a common point: Property tax will be GONE in the next election, taxes on the rich will increase, cuts upon the vulnerable rolled back, and so on.
Sinn Fein would care for the people. Please stop. Just stop.
Well that’s the end of Labour… Take a bow Gilmore and co, ye have presided over the destruction of your own party… Full pension package due in Feb is it??? A local property tax collected by central revenue hmmm something sounds wrong there lads
2016 will have far-reaching consequences for FINE GAEL. Kennys’s free-market capitalism mandate is a falsehood that he perpetuated through his false rhetoric during the campaign.
More mirrors in the Dail. Then they’ll see where the cuts are needed!
Will they be so fast to tackle public sector pay another weight around the people’s neck pulling it down
Could anyone enlighten me as to the levels of respite care grant in the UK?? Or is there even one? Just a question but I’d put a good bet that its way less than here if they even have one!
The media once again got it all wrong. Predicting all week about defections in the Labour party. No defections. It seems much of the media is out of touch with ordinary people. The media at the moment seem to have almost become partners with FF, Sinn Fein, ULA etc. Why do we never hear anyone on the media who agrees with the budget?
Mr. Scott,
The media are reflecting the interests of the Irish voters. When the government doesn’t, the media have a duty to point this out. Simply put – the “ordinary people” have fallen out of love with Fine Gael right-wing capitalists.
Heard many members of the public who agree with the budget John? Any idea of what it would cost the state if the 77k people who do home care for their relatives said feck this the state can look after them? Check it out you might learn something.
have your say