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AT 8 O’CLOCK tonight, the Dáil will begin debating a second motion of no confidence in Fine Gael’s embattled housing minister Eoghan Murphy in just over a year.
The motion, tabled by the Social Democrats over what party co-leader Róisín Shortall called Murphy’s “failure to solve to the housing crisis”, is being billed as the latest test for Fine Gael’s strained hold on power.
Speculation has mounted in recent days that Fine Gael may face a tight vote due to Dáil arithmetic and the abstention of Fianna Fáil under the confidence and supply arrangement.
That’s led to suggestions that a defeat for the government would mean a snap general election – something both Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil have been keen to avoid.
But others – including Shortall – have dismissed this as “scaremongering” and said that a defeat for the government wouldn’t have any impact on the life of the government.
So who is right?
The suggestion that tonight’s vote could trigger a general election has been put forward a number of times since the no confidence motion was tabled last week.
On Wednesday, Fianna Fáil leader Micheál Martin told the Irish Examiner that his party would not support the motion because of the implications it would have for the Fine Gael-led government.
“It would end up with an election during Christmas. It is a cynical publicity stunt,” he told the newspaper.
But many opposition TDs have claimed this isn’t the case, and that there are no rules that say the Taoiseach would have to dissolve the Dáil if the motion is passed.
Speaking about the motion during Leaders’ Questions last Wednesday, Taoiseach Leo Varadkar also hit out at the Social Democrats for using the vote to garner publicity.
He said:
One thing that will not make a difference, and I guarantee you, is the motion of no confidence and a general election at Christmas week or the week after.
So it’s not just Martin who is suggesting the government will fall if tonight’s motion passes, although the Fianna Fáil leader’s claim is more clear-cut.
For context, it’s important to consider the numbers that allow Fine Gael to hold the balance of power in the Dáil.
There are currently 158 TDs. The government, made up of Fine Gael TDs and members of the Independent Alliance, holds 54 seats – just over a third of the total number in the Dáil.
Fianna Fáil – which has 45 TDs – will abstain under the confidence and supply arrangement, as will the Ceann Comhairle.
This leaves 58 TDs, meaning the motion could theoretically be passed by four votes tonight (the government will vote against the motion).
If Fine Gael can get three TDs on its side, it would be able to defeat the vote with a majority of 57 (versus 55 TDs who would vote in favour of the motion).
But sources have stated that if tonight’s vote is tied at 56 for each side, Murphy would still be forced to resign because the Dáil will have failed to show confidence in him.
The government has suggested that this would lead to a general election, but opposition TDs have disputed this.
Sinn Féin’s housing spokesman Eoin O Broin pointed to other instances during the lifetime of the current government when ministers have resigned without precipitating a general election.
“We saw it with Frances Fitzgerald and Denis Naughten,” he told TheJournal.ie.
“Ultimately, this is a matter for the Taoiseach and calling an election is his prerogative. Given that Fine Gael or Fianna Fáil don’t want an election, it doesn’t have to happen.
“There’s nothing in Dáil standing orders or rules that says if a vote of no confidence in a minister passes, that the government has to fall.”
Standing orders
Fitzgerald and Naughten both resigned before a vote of confidence in them was held, so those examples don’t provide an exact precedent for what would happen to the government if tonight’s motion passes.
But O Broin is correct in saying Dáil standing orders make no special provisions for confidence motions: they are simply treated like any other motion.
The current government has already been defeated in a number of motions during its lifetime, including in votes on building standards and on the Occupied Territories Bill.
Those defeats did not lead to a general election, so there is no evidence here for any reason why a similar result tonight would automatically mean a general election would be called.
Something that would trigger a general election would be the passing of a motion of no confidence in the Taoiseach or the government as a whole – as opposed to a specific minister.
This is based on Article 28.10 of the constitution, which states:
The Taoiseach shall resign from office upon his ceasing to retain the support of a majority in Dáil Éireann.
This has happened twice before: once in 1982, when the Fianna Fáil-led government lost by two votes after the Workers Party withdrew support over GUBU and other scandals; and again in 1992, when another Fianna Fáil-led government lost by 11 votes after the Progressive Democrats left the ruling coalition over a row relating to the Beef Tribunal.
‘Proxy vote’
A government source said that it would be the Taoiseach’s prerogative to decide whether to call an election if the government is defeated tonight, because it would be seen as difficult for Varadkar’s government to carry on in power.
A Fine Gael spokesperson also said this evening that the motion was a “proxy vote” for the Taoiseach and the government, because the loss of a minister was a “crucial matter”.
The suggestion is that if the vote passes, Fine Gael and the Independent Alliance would no longer have a majority to continue leading the government, requiring the dissolution of the Dáil under the Constitution.
Fianna Fáil could be seen to have breached the Programme for Partnership for Government agreed in 2016 by abstaining – the document states that the party must vote with the government on budgets and votes of confidence.
And there is precedent for this. In January 1982, the 22nd Dáil was dissolved when the minority Fine Gael-Labour coalition lost a vote on that year’s budget.
But despite all of this, there is still no obligation for Varadkar to dissolve the Dáil and call an election if the government is defeated tonight.
TheJournal.ie contacted Fianna Fáil for clarification about Martin’s claim, but a party spokesperson said he was unable to be reached for comment.
Instead, a statement from the spokesperson implied that tonight’s motion was akin to one of confidence in the Taoiseach or government.
The full statement read:
If a motion of no confidence in the Taoiseach or the Government is passed, or a motion of confidence is defeated, the Constitution dictates that the both the Taoiseach and the Government must then resign.
The President then, at his discretion, dissolves the Dáil and an election is held within 18 to 28 days.
Fine Gael was also contacted for comment, but did not respond by the time of publication.
There is no obligation under Dáil standing orders for the government to call an election if a motion of no confidence in one of its ministers is passed.
Micheál Martin claimed that defeat for the government in tonight’s motion would lead to a general election before Christmas, and a Fianna Fáil spokesperson likened tonight’s motion to a confidence vote in the government when asked for clarity.
However, there is no basis for this, as the motion of no confidence applies only to Eoghan Murphy, and not the Taoiseach or government as a whole.
Even if Murphy is forced to resign as a minister, the government would still have a working majority in budgetary and confidence matters.
Opposition TDs say the vote is not a motion of no confidence in the government as a whole, but rather a discrete vote of confidence in Murphy, which is why they say their motion will not necessitate a general election.
It does not stand up to fact that Cabinet will not be able to pass any legislation if Murphy is forced to resign, particularly as the government would still have Fianna Fáil and the Independent Alliance for support.
Therefore, we rate this claim: FALSE
As per our verdict guide, this means: The claim is inaccurate.
There are no rules which back up the claim that the Taoiseach must seek the dissolution of the Dáil and call an election if the government is defeated in tonight’s vote.
This would only have to happen if a motion of no confidence in the Taoiseach or the Government passed, but tonight’s motion is not the same as that.
The Taoiseach may seek the dissolution of the Dáil if the motion is defeated, but it is his prerogative.
TheJournal.ie’s FactCheck is a signatory to the International Fact-Checking Network’s Code of Principles. You can read it here. For information on how FactCheck works, what the verdicts mean, and how you can take part, check out our Reader’s Guide here. You can read about the team of editors and reporters who work on the factchecks here.
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While not disputing the regional lockdown, why is there such a regional focus on where the cases are happening now? When Dublin was the epicentre there was no talk of Dublin only restrictions.
@Phil O’ Meara: EVERYONE was locked down. And we’ve gotten better at tracking outbreaks etc because people aren’t travelling AS MUCH as they did before. We’re used to social distancing, wearing masks and all that as opposed to what we were doing.
@Phil O’ Meara: the whole country was lock dowm then
@Phil O’ Meara: excellent point
@Paul Dolan: in fairness it’s a terrible point. Dublin was the epicentre of a national community transmitted outbreak with cases popping up in the hundreds everywhere . These counties are now experiencing significant clusters alone while eff all cases are emerging anywhere else, including Dublin
@Phil O’ Meara: theblockdown was nationwide to prevent wholesale spread of the virus. We avoided this and are now focusing on where hot spots are cropping up. Are you really that stupid that you cant understand a basic protocol like this? Read the article. Other countries are doing the exact same thing in an effort to keep as much of their economies open as possible.
@David Clements: What about when there were a worrying rise of cases in Cavan, west Meath, Cork(notwithstanding other counties) after stage three had been implemented? Albeit while not as high as cases in Kildare, Laois abd Offaly, they were still seeing clusters. Despite this, I do agree with a regional lockdown in the three counties but Phil’s point still stands but maybe more regarding other counties nationwide. Hopefully the same measures will be applied in other affected counties if there are heavy clusters. However, I’d like to hear more about what you think of the government’s decision regarding this?
@Anthony Carroll: why u shouting??
@Phil O’ Meara: only 6 new cases in Dublin , when you think of that is brilliant as to the imminent response to closure of building sites that were at the centre a week ago …
@Anthony Carroll: what about Intel ? Those employees can work WFH but the company does not allow it even if you have health problems…
@Phil O’ Meara: I think there is a prisoner on the loose as I saw a helicopter in the sky they can say anything to lick us down it’s a joke there is something more sinister going on and we are not being told
@Phil O’ Meara: Dublin has 5 cases today, don’t think a lock down is required there.
@Caoimhín: Don’t think he mentioned anything about current Dublin cases did he? Maybe take your black screen down you’d see things clearer (face palm).
@Phil O’ Meara: Covid 19 is the Climate Change for Skangers and Knackers. Same irrational terror.
@Rachael Pender: Yea he already pointed that out… Smh
@ben: Er what, I worked in Intel, so please tell me how thousands of workers operate and repair the machinery from home?
@Phil O’ Meara: God the cluchies really hate the Dubs don’t they. Dublin had 5 cases for a population of over 1.5 million! Get a grip!!
@Andy: still can’t forgive them for the 5 in a row…
@nelliekel: and more to come!
Don’t go to Offaly!!!!!!! Eh, not a problem…..
@Rochey77: We wouldn’t want your kind anyway!
@Rochey77: Feel sorry for the lads over in Moneygal. Practically surrounded by Tipp on three sides.
@Rochey77: looking at the map it’s like we’re losing our appendix, it’s a bit inconvenient but we’ll survive.
@Rochey77: offaly poor comment
@Rochey77: That’s an offaly unkind comment.
@Rochey77: …and I’m just after buying a year’s pass for St. Cronan’s High Cross.
- still just 5 confirmed covid patients in ICU (no change from yesterday
- 11 confirmed covid patients in Irish hospitals, just an increase of 1 from the figure of 10 yesterday
- 0 covid admissions or discharges to/from ICU in the last 24hrs
- 0 vivid admissions or discharges to/from hospital in the last 24hrs
@Anna: nothing came from that ‘sharp rise’ in suspected cases
There are hundreds of suspected cases every day which usually come back negative
@Anna: People don’t like data because it confirms their emotional bias regarding the virus.
@Anna: And these measures are designed to keep it that way. Unfortunately more cases in our population could lead to more admissions in the near future, hence the masks and the local lockdown.
@ruairi: exactly. A point that seems to be lost on some posters here.
@Anna: Luckily majority of those workers are probably young enough and will not require hospitalization, however the risk is more to those they may spread it to who could be older or have underlying health conditions. Given how contagious this virus is it appears only a matter of time until those hospitalization and subsequent ICU numbers rise – also with 1-2 weeks incubation period we may not see the full impact of these clusters until middle or end of August.
@Anna: Where is this data coming from? if you present info please give a source. We had 69 new cases here yesterday https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
If these cases are not ending up in hospital that’s good but not the point. the more cases, the more disease going round, the more chance of catching it, the more chance of vulnerable people ending up in hospital and dying. So your hospital stats are an incomplete and intentionally misleading picture.
@Anna: No update on recovered figures in nearly 7 weeks now…
@Vladimir Macro: The only ‘data’ I see you give comes directly from RussiaToday or Twitter. So don’t be taking the high ground when it comes to bias.
@ruairi: a sense of perspective is needed.
The cases are increasing but it is spreading mostly in the under-45 age bracket. They confirmed at the press conference that a large number of the new cases are asymptomatic. Factory workers came to work unaware they had the virus. These do not require hospital admission.
A rise in cases doesn’t necessarily mean a rise in hospital admissions.
That could happen yes. But that doesn’t mean it will happen. And so far, it hasn’t happened.
@Bob Rock: the Irish Covid Data hub as I said in my original comment.
I can’t post links but you’ll find it if you type it into Google
@Anna: 19,294,286 covid cases resulting in 718,339 deaths globally, suggests more cases, asymptomatic or not, will cause more deaths. What happens when those asymptomatic people interact with their family, shop in the same place as the vunerable, hospital workers?
@Bob Rock: LOL
@Anna: Irish Covid Data hub? read your original comment again because you didn’t mention that. Regardless, this presents an incomplete picture because of reasons I stated above. But you seemingly have a clear agenda to push so why bother pay attention to any of that.
@ruairi: WHO said on the 14th of July that there was zero cases of asymptomatic transmission to date.
@Declan McArdle: was about to make the same comment. Am checking worldometers daily. It seem to only be updated by batches. For a while in March/April the recovered number stood ridiculously low and all of a sudden thousands were flagged as cured. I appreciate it cannot be updated on a daily basis but such a patchy communication re. recovery rates doesn’t look very serious.
@Bob Rock: you’re right Bob, I mentioned it on another article.
I have an agenda to push because I am reporting facts? Confirmed cases on a hse/government backed website?
What do you think was happening yesterday when the media were reporting on the sharp rise in SUSPECTED cases? Suspected because they were waiting on results. And today there is no increase in ICU, and an increase of 1 patient in hospital with Covid. There is many suspected cases every day in hospitals and they rarely come back as confirmed.
I should add the so-called rise was in suspected patients who were already in hospital as the data hub reported no covid admissions to ICU or hospital the last couple of days. Zero again today.
@Vladimir Macro: Here’s some data for you that might challenge your own biases. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2769235
@Vladimir Macro: you posted this same thing about the WHO and asymptomatic transmission two days ago and you gave a link from twitter to “prove” it https://www.thejournal.ie/effective-testing-tracing-schools-5166779-Aug2020/?utm_source=shortlink.
That was said in early June and retracted the following day https://www.statnews.com/2020/06/09/who-comments-asymptomatic-spread-covid-19/
@Anna: They may be ‘facts’ but my point is that these ‘fact’ give an incomplete picture of the situation and you seem to be doing it intentionally because you are ignoring this simple logic – “more Transmission = more people infected = more disease in circulation = more chance of vulnerable people getting sick = more people dying.
But keep posting about how many people are in hospital today and don’t worry about tomorrow or the day after. You were doing this intentionally to convey a message you want to repeat in every article on this topic.
@Anna: 30 suspected cases in limerick
@Anna: 98 new cases today!!
@Anna: but aren’t you electing to exclude the 14 suspected cases that are also currently in ICU, because under your set parameters, they are not yet “confirmed” . while wilfully ignoring that they are obviously displaying symptoms associated with covid 19 and having difficulties that require ICU treatment, which led to them being categorised as suspected cases in the first place, which on the balance of probabilities will ultimately be confirmed as covid 19.
@Anna: well this comment has aged like warm milk.
@David Van-Standen: there were 14 suspected yesterday. Results are back within 24hrs. The figure hasn’t changed from the 5 confirmed. There are suspected cases every day in hospital. There could be 100 suspected cases, it means nothing until the results come back to confirm or negate.
If you are admitted to hospital for whatever reason you will be routinely tested to make sure you do not contract it while in hospital. While they await your results you are a suspected case.
@David Van-Standen: Unfortunately you were not dealing with a good-faith actor with Anna, she is focusing only on data that supports the message she is promoting. For that reason Anna will not be influenced by logical argument or evidence regardless of strength or source. Don’t waste your time.
@David Van-Standen: But if you relate the suspected figure in ICU with current positivity rate of tests – is it 4.5%?, it does seem like a lot of hot air. Even those who elected to get a test due to symptoms shown prove mainly covid free. Better to be safe than sorry though.
@Bob Rock: I think she is proper logic and insightful. The only message I see her promoting is cutting through the crap of scaremongering propaganda. The clue is in one’s adjectives.
@Anna: the risk is always there these young people may living or mixing with vulnerable parents, elderly grandparents or even some friends who are in the at risk group. By stopping the virus spreading and may I stress we are all responsible for this, we will keep the hospitals and ICUs free to treat other patients who have had vital cancer or life saving surgeries and treatments. It’s as simple as that.
@Anna: complete over reaction
@Dawn Tallon: You think Anna is insightful for using hospital figures for as grounds for not implementing measures to decrease spread such as mask wearing and regional restrictions? Anna is choosing to ignore the logic of “more cases = more disease transmission = increase risk for the vulnerable = more death”. Read through these comments again and see how this quite logical point is ignored.
@Bob Rock: I said nothing about the restrictions. Of course regional lockdown are necessary
@Anna: then why not state that in your initial comment above with as of now 210 thumbs up? your original comment tries to highlight how few people are in hospital (as of today). By stating this and this alone the natural conclusion is that the outlined restrictions in the article are not necessary.
@Bob Rock: as I said. It’s important to keep perspective of all the information.
Not just jump to conclusions when we see a rise, like you did when you read the figures I reported and assumed I was implying the regional lockdown was not necessary.
Stick to the facts
@Bob Rock: Yes I did. So they have no data so far, yet they no kids dont spread it? How would they know this if they dont know if asymptomatic spread the virus?
@Bob Rock: and with the same eye, overstating deaths from a previous month, like yesterday, IS further reason to lockdown.
Swings both ways
@Anna: Again you are wilfully ignoring the fact that those 14 cases in fact require ICU treatment. Unlike a hypothetical suspected 100 cases that may have some symptoms or have been in close contact with a confirmed case, that might come back as positive or negative, but either way don’t as yet need ICU treatment.
@Anna: Here are the facts regarding this disease, it can kill people or keep them gravely sick for a long time, young people as well as older people can die from this. it can be transmitted by people who are asymptomatic. As you say many may not need hospital treatment but increased numbers of cases are shortly followed by increased hospitalisations and deaths (look at the US).
You highlighting hospitalisations TODAY ignores all of this. Yes, hospital numbers are low today, because transmission levels were low two weeks ago. You do not include any of this detail in any of your posts over the past few days regarding this issue. You state they are ‘facts’, yes but they are not ‘ALL’ of the relevant facts. But continue to ignore this as you do.
@Alex Marquis: It was weekly in March, April @ May. Last two updates were 02/06 & 23/06. @hselive & @roinnslainte won’t respond.
@Vladimir Macro: Im not even sure if I even understood what you are trying to say in those last two posts. You seem to be arguing against a point I didn’t make.
You stated a few minutes ago that the WHO advise that asymptomatic’s do not transmit the disease. you also said this same thing two days ago. This is not true and I told you this two days ago with evidence but you keep posting it. Now you’re talking about “kids transmission”
@David Van-Standen: there isn’t 14 covid cases in ICU.
There was 5 confirmed cases yesterday and the media reported a further 14 suspected cases in ICU.
Today there are still 5 confirmed cases because their test came back negative. There are suspected cases reported every day but they usually come back negative.
I check the covid data hub daily so know there has been no rise in covid ICU/hospital patients. Maybe you should do the same before you judge.
There has been no Covid admissions to ICU in the last 48hrs.
If a cancer patient is admitted to ICU (or any other non-Covid patient) they will be tested for covid19 whether they display symptoms or not. While they are waiting for the results they are a ‘suspected case’
@Anna: any reply for the point that has been made umpteen times that the ICU patient numbers today are not the complete picture and just continue to ignore the known time delay between disease infection and eventual hospitalisation? No?
@Bob Rock: so the WHO clarified they have no data on asymptomatic spread of the virus, yet the WHO know asymptomatic children do not spread the virus.
I cannot make this any clearer and I cannot understand why the masses accept that the WHO can ascertain that asyptomatic children do not spread the virus and adults, well “we now just dont have any data”
My arse.
@Jamie Connor: 17 more cases in Wexford this week which had no cases for 4 weeks
@Vladimir Macro: As usual you make strong claims without supporting evidence. The fact is there is no definitive conclusions about asymptomatic patients spreading the disease because it is so difficult to study this either in children or adults. On this point you will find conflicting evidence on either side but we will know in time.
The problem is you are claiming the WHO is saying “asymptomatic people do not transmit the disease”. You have said this over and over and it is not true because the fact in no one knows. So stop spreading disinformation, find something else to do with your time.
@Bob Rock: and the one time they did say it (in early June) they retracted it the next day. You know this because I replied to you two days ago about it providing evidence but you simply ignore it.
@Bob Rock: Rock is right. Rock head
Bring back Dr Tony and Simon
@Carl: I agree with your first suggested individual. I have sore sides laughing at your second suggested individual.
@Carl: Yes because the virus would just disappear if they came back
@Carl: Dr Tony OK, but Simon? You’ve got to be joking. All Simon did was repeat what the medical experts said. That is NOT enough to redeem him for all his other stuff ups and ineptitude
@Carl: bring back Tony and Simon???? Why, have you a report to bury?
@Carl: holohan has blood on his hands from the cervical check scandal. It was him who wanted to hide it. Him. Tony holohan. And because of his actions, mothers had to say god bye to their children and never see them again. Tony holohan. Dont forget that name. Is that what you call a hero?
@David Corrigan: What is with the cheesy Tom Selleck avatar? Its hard to take your opinion seriously.
@Val Doyle: You probably need to try harder Val.
@Carl: what difference will that make?
@Carl: tony cant due to family reasons
@Val Doyle: He is not very clever Val – despite what he thinks himself.
@Tiktok: big brave original commentary from youwho? Drop the tok bit, tik suits you better
@Carl: What?
Bring back Simon,the Minister for Health who left our old people lying on trolleys in hospital corridors for 5 years?
Seriously?
This is purely political, very little community transmission. Clusters are in meat plants and direct provision centres. They should be testing and tracing not crippling counties. Who’s going to enforce this? Why aren’t they locking down Dublin so?
@John O’Brien: Because Dubs are civilised, hygienic and law abiding.
@Bain triail aisti: well there’s lots of us living in these counties, go figure!
@John O’Brien: because there are next to no cases in Dublin.
@David Clements: Show me your stats for this please. Very little community transmission in these counties. What the gov are not doing is closing these facilities and isolating those infected and traced. It’s a hollow move for political cosmetics.
@John O’Brien: I’m gonna go with that most of the people in Dublin were so worried about the virus they followed the guidance more than people down the country, i know I was more lax outside m50
@john flynn: The clusters are in meat plants and direct provision centres. Community transmission is no worse than anywhere else. These measures are cosmetic to satisfy those with only a superficial understanding of whats really happening. The lack of comprehensive testing at these facilities has led to this.
@John O’Brien: I live in Offaly but my doctor is in Tipperary . because I live in village close to the town closest to me which happens to be in Tipperary. We also have to attend Limerick hospital due to services being cut here . so in fairness its bit ridiculous considering the outbreak in Offaly is at the other end of the county . which is closer to Dublin than to me.
Shall we build a wall? lol
@Ciaran Farrelly: crazy to think leixlip maynooth celbridge are all effected by this yet closer to bray than athy.
@Ciaran Farrelly: Yes and we will make Laois, Kildare and Offaly pay for it!
:-) Lol!
@hard yaka: This Timahoe is in north Kildare, about 12 miles from Maynooth and Celbridge.
@hard yaka: Athy to secede. We’ve had enough of Dubs up North. Draw a line at M7 and M9, close the exits. Carlow, Laois can make their own areangements.
@hard yaka: The outbreak happened about 20km away from those towns nothing to do with Athy.
@Tom Anderson: sorry Tom its 23km from celbridge and 30 km from leixlip Malahide is also 30 km from leixlip for reference. People in leixlip primarily work in Dublin or in the local community. Most wouldn’t have a clue about timahoe. My point is the size of the area its from North kildare to west offaly to south Laois. Its a huge amount of hotels pubs cafes to be tarred with the one brush. People in leixlip village can walk 5 mins to dublin for a pint but the pub a 5 minute walk the other direction is letting staff go again. I just wish common sense would prevail but civil servants get paid no matter what so why would bother to look closer into it.
@hard yaka: That’s 14 miles rather than 12 to Celbridge. It doesn’t matter unless your acceptable distance for an outbreak is between 12 and 14 miles.
So basically the people of Kildare, Laois and Offaly are having their movements and freedoms restricted because of the greed of the owners of these meat processing plants, their ties to the government and the exploitation of low paid immigrant workers forced to live in close quarter conditions, is this going to be a trend now restricting citizens movements and blaming them when it’s big business with close ties to the government causing it.
@Paul: They are very strict with hygiene at factories, however the spread might be because of the low temperatures that may help the transmission of the virus (this does not bode will for winter) and that workers have to get close to each other and shout to be heard over the noise of the machines.
“A more unexpected setting type is perhaps food processing plants, in which we identified clusters of up to 518 cases (Cannon, 2020). These plants have been the source of clusters in multiple countries. It is possible that the cold atmosphere in this setting has facilitated the spread of the virus (Molteni, 2020). Other possible explanations include the close proximity of workers for prolonged periods shared welfare spaces, as well as the need to speak loudly to communicate over the noise of the machines, which could lead to an increased projection of viral particles. Another explanation is that we may not be seeing clusters from other manufacturing settings with similar working environments, as fewer have been in operation due to lockdown guidelines during the pandemic, whereas food production has continued.
Another reason for spread in food processing industry may be worker’s accommodation, dormitories, direct provision centres, where hygiene and social distancing measures are not or cannot be enforced due to cramped living conditions.
Leclerc, Q.J., Fuller, N.M., Knight, L.E., Funk, S., Knight, G.M. and CMMID COVID-19 Working Group, 2020. What settings have been linked to SARS-CoV-2 transmission clusters?. Wellcome Open Research, 5(83), p.83. https://wellcomeopenresearch.org/articles/5-83/v2
@Paul: People want cheap meat and Without going into how people have other things to spend their money on like rent, mortgages, very expensive electricity, very expensive insurance, broadband the list goes on. It all comes down to the price in the shops,
@David Jordan: obviously not strict enough with a cluster of what 80 cases?
@Michael Duckster: I’d gladly go without meat if it meant not having my freedom restricted every couple of months because of greed and exploitation for profit.
@Paul: Food processing factories are using thermal cameras scanning workers arriving at work, they also have hand sanitizing stations, and workers wear gloves and masks. But you’re right, it’s not enough. It probably will never be enough. Also seems that food factories are terrified of testing, finding there’s an outbreak and getting shut down.
Significantly, these clusters were found only after people in Direct Provision centres tested positive and further cases were found at the factories they work at. They didn’t find the clusters by testing the factories.
That said, transmission occurs outside work and in work; in shared accommodation (the company has no control over) and there’s also a risk of spread at work because workers get too close and shout at each other over the noise of the machines.
How well theyve only decided to being in regional lockdowns once the epicentre moved from being Dublin?
@The Upside-down Triangle: lots of people commute into dublin so yes you are correct
@The Upside-down Triangle: the pain of your ignorance must be unbearable
@Craic_a_tower: seems like a bit of a double standard to me, and I live in Dublin.
@The Upside-down Triangle: The State has never faced such a pandemic. We seem to have learned a lot from the first wave to deploy tactics and resources better for new outbreaks. That’s a good thing.
@The Upside-down Triangle: Dublin was locked down with the rest of the country…
@The Upside-down Triangle: and I’m a proud Dublin hating cork man. I don’t get your point. Dublin isn’t a problem right now…
@The Upside-down Triangle: really must hurt a lot. What do you take for it?
@The Upside-down Triangle: . Dublin was the epicentre of a national community transmitted outbreak with cases popping up in the hundreds everywhere . These counties are now experiencing significant clusters alone while eff all cases are emerging anywhere else, including Dublin
@Aaron O’Leary: I’d just wonder that if there was a spike in cases in Dublin would they lock down Dublin only? I don’t think so. With regards the nationwide lockdown it felt like measures that were necessary for Dublin (with half of cases) were being applied to the rest of the country, which wasn’t necessary. Like other less affected counties could have opened up earlier.
@Craic_a_tower: have you anything constructive to say?
@The Upside-down Triangle: and still culchies moaning about Dublin….build the wall and keep country people out of Dublin
@The Upside-down Triangle: educate yourself as knowledge sets one free. Positive enough for you?
@Craic_a_tower: I’m very educated and knowledgeable, do having anything specific to say about the subject or just ambiguous statements that mean nothing?
@The Upside-down Triangle: no you aren’t. Already explained above and you are still arguing. The entire country was locked down so no isolation of Dublin required there is now a flare requiring a local lockdown. I am no expert but this is so blindingly obvious I fear for the intelligent of the general population. This is not “old man and the sea” this is “old man and a puddle” and you aren’t transporting a fish
@Craic_a_tower: thanks for letting me know I’m not educated, I wasn’t aware of this. I haven’t argued with anyone, simply having an adult discussion, surely you can differentiate? If anything you are the childish one with troll-like replys to me trying to goad me into a petty spat. I never fall for trolls like you. Maybe you need to take a look in the mirror and realize the only ignorant one here is you.
@The Upside-down Triangle: angry at stupidity and wilful ignorance is really not the same as forgetting what an adult conversation is. To be an adult require measure and reasoned thinking. Your posts have not possessed this seemingly obvious qualities. So I say will all positivities, the youth are our future and the will remember this time. AIDS changed the world this may easily do the same, have a look of the comments back then. You will be on a particular side and do you really think it will be the good side?
@The Upside-down Triangle: perhaps because Dublin is 60% of GDP of the whole nation, and must be thought carefully any further lockdown ?
Take to the streets. Police state flexing it’s muscles on personal liberty for 6 months now. How long till the cracks in society break? Not long imo…
@michael: you appear to be cracked already
@Mark: I freely admit it. And I’m not alone.
@michael: only a minority thinking like that thankfully.
@michael: Hello Gemma!
@michael: stay at home and keep folding your tin foil hats.
@Gavin Mckenna: Yep, calling me a clone isn’t at all ironic coming from a sheep.
@michael: stay off you tube champ. Good man yerself…
@barry moore: Only a minority now – but the more the powers are abused, the more resistance will grow. The vocal ones are not the damaging ones, those that quietly start to ignore the advice alongside the mandatory restrictions with no fuss are where the problems will come from. Locking down a county because of clusters in meat factories or DP centers is not targeted – its big, visual, and smacks of panic – what other decisions are the same?
@michael: on the one hand I can follow the advice of trained professionals who dedicated their lives to helping people.
Or I can follow the advice of a handful of barely educated lifelong dolers who believe whatever they see on YouTube.
@Sid: What’s YouTube got to do with it? Sleep walk into tyranny if you wish but thankfully we don’t all share your docile views.
Will never be enforced
@Gerrard: even if the vast majority of well-intentioned people follow it, it will be valuable nonetheless.
@Gerrard: Why not?
@Sarah Connor: a little thing called freedom of movement, its in our constitution and I don’t believe we’ve ever had a referendum to have it removed.
@Stephen Fitzgerald: They can bring in checkpoints like we had for the country wide lockdown. People need to suck it up if we want to avoid another major outbreak and country lock down.
@Stephen Fitzgerald: ah yes but the constitution also says that the right to movement can be restricted. 3 counties have had their movement restricted. Hence why movement was only ever restricted 2km 5km and so on
@Sarah Connor: You actually don’t have to speak to a guard at checkpoints, its covered under freedom of movement, you do need to supply a driving licence thats all. You seem to think a few clusters are the next major outbreak – they’re not. Lock down won’t work again, people have been fairly patient up to now even with the ever moving goal posts ICU numbers unchanged lock down was to protect health services from being overrun, nothing more.Only so far you can push people till they push back.
@barry moore: Simple way around that would be to use Article 40.6.1.ii im assembling with family or friends. Only restrictions are around Leinster House i believe.
@Stephen Fitzgerald: and you share a link to the article on freedom of movement in the Bunreacht na hÉireann you are quoting from please. I fancy a bit of light reading for the evening
@Stephen Fitzgerald: I have a copy of it. What article are you quoting from?
@Stephen Fitzgerald: you might not have noticed the “in accordance with law” bit. This means that movement is guaranteed once it’s within the law, meaning the Dail can legislate to limit that movement which they have.
@barry moore: Article 40.6.1. I believe the only restrictions on this relate to the area around the houses of the Oireachtas and even as such the must be a dispersal notice. Obviously you can’t assemble on private property without the permission of the owner, but with friends and family you should be OK unless they don’t like you.
@Paul: correct. People cherry picking what they feel makes them right.
@Paul: You may not like it but provided the assembly is peaceful the guards can’t actually do a thing, the emergency powers were part of a national emergency which has since been revoked as its no longer national, start treating people differently – if I’m not mistaken thats discrimination.
@Stephen Fitzgerald: the Minister for Health can reintroduce the restrictions with a signature. You’ve gone from saying restrictions were unconstitutional to that they were revoked, the latter being correct. I assume you agree they are and were constitutional so.
@Stephen Fitzgerald: as the full article says yes. Once its done in accordance with the law. Should the government bring in a law saying you cant for two week then no. At the moment the government has requested that people living in 3 Countys follow certain rules for two weeks. If the people care for loved ones, families, friends, work mates they could follow the request and protect each other. If its not followed then the government well look to bring in laws and force it. Cant say they won’t it was done in March and April.
@Paul: Just to get one thing straight, I do understand people being cautious but my risk is different to yours. The powers the minister for health gave were unconstitutional the laws that were mentioned (to be taken in good faith) are related to violence, bearing arms etc. Freedom of assembly once peaceful can only be restricted around the houses. There is a reason the minister for justice didn’t get involved. Laws cannot supercede the constitution without our permission its what makes our country great.
@Stephen Fitzgerald: ammmm you’ve lost me completely. The Health Act 1947 as amended allows the Minister for Health to bring in restrictions which limit the movement of people. This is lawful as was upheld by a recent case in the High Court. You’re opinion or interpretation of the constitution is incorrect.
@Paul: taken from the hands of medical professionals (at the check points) if memory serves me, and given to a non medical/not even fully trained guard. Bit of a stretch dont you think? Given how accountability is in this country and how crazily expensive it is to challenge these draconian measures its not surprising. As for the case (if you can call it that-one woman and man trying to peach and increase their oddly strange understanding of things) that as far as I’m aware will end up going before the CoA, but that said if the go in as ill prepared as they did ro the high court the result will be the same. Why were their supporters not dispersed – freedom of assembly
@Stephen Fitzgerald: if it was unconstitutional how come the courts said i was constitutional? Irish Laws exist because of Bunreacht na hÉireann and they work together. As 40.6.1ii states. Freedom of assembly is legal once its within the law. This we agree on. “Within the law” is the important part. The minister for health has the power to bring in laws to limit free assembly. In the constitution it says that Freedom on movement can be restricted. we never have been on complete full lockdown we have been restricted.
@barry moore: it also states it can only be restricted around the houses, the laws to which you reference were based on non peaceful protests as apposed to peaceful ones (taken in good faith), while I do enjoy debating the finer parts of our constitution im off out for the evening (completely covid safe and free). I do understand that people would like to change our constitution but that requires our permission and any draconian measures must be put to the people, these decisions are far to big and far stretching without being put to the people.
@Stephen Fitzgerald: its you who the article not me. The restrictions around the Oireachtas is in place at all times and are for protests correct. It have provision it there for the laws to be extended. And the minister for health can and is going to be Sunday night make it law to restrict movements and gatherings in the 3 county’s. If cases continue to rise in other parts the same will happen.
Hope everyone stays safe in those counties. Remember guys, it could be anywhere else tomorrow
@Shane Connolly: could and probably will …
Absolute joke of a decision, they wouldn’t do it if it was Dublin, Cork or Galway. Good luck trying it police it. It’ll be the same as the 14 day quarentine from abroad, non existent.
@DK: Shouldn’t be hard to get checkpoints back out. They did mention we may go back to phase 2 if the numbers go back to over 100 per day, so that implies they would do it if it was in one of the cities. Hopefully people can follow the 2 week restrictions and we don’t have to lock the whole country down again.
@Sarah Connor: Yeah just like the 14 day quarentine shouldnt be hard but we all know how that is.
@DK: agree. I live in Offaly but my doctor is in Tipperary . because I live in village close to the town closest to me which happens to be in Tipperary. We also have to attend Limerick hospital due to services being cut here . so in fairness its bit ridiculous considering the outbreak in Offaly is at the other end of the county . which is closer to Dublin than to me.
Control.
Sheep.
@Roibeard Ó Riain: Now you do what they tell you because you’re under control.
@Roibeard Ó Riain: Are you an Independent Thinker too?
@Roibeard Ó Riain: Care to give any other details on your comments that are clearsy just intended to promote outrage at a time when public cooperation is essential to save lives.
@Roibeard Ó Riain: hat tinfoil
Did we ever think we’d see the day?!?!…
@Kate Flaherty: was actually bound to happen and will probably happen again.
Doesn’t the word “either “ usually refer to 2s. Journal said “either of the 3 counties” . Probably not the Journals fault , they were only copy/pasting as usual
@Tony Kennedy: valuable contribution. Thank you for that.
@Bob Rock: there is no vaccine for bad grammar. We must remain vigilant
@David Clements: and very witty to boot! keep it going.
How will this be enforced? Some people can’t be trusted.
@Brian Murray: most people in these counties work in Dublin what happens with them ??
@Gerrard: Travel to and from work is allowed.
@Gerrard: Don’t go to work unless it’s essential and either job pay or claim PUP like everyone else.
@Brian Murray: but those that can be will carry them. It will be the same when (if) the vaccine v becomes available. It might not be fair and is not the fault of those who’ve done everything right but this is what we’re facing for the foreseeable future.
Migrant/zero contract hours getting fair treatment might be one positive that comes from this.
@Brian Murray: it cant be and wont be unless people do it themselves. the fact is the authorities knew there were clusters in meat factories and didnt put in or force owners to put in testing regimes and I doubt there were any covid precaution checks either.
this was mostly preventable they just didnt bother.
Wouldn’t it make sense to get priority testing for meat processing and direct provision centers in all counties instead of wait and see approach?
Wont work and won’t be adhered to
Tokenistic as usual
If you live in Leixlip , Celbridge or Maynooth you’re a stone’s throw from Dublin
If you’re on the Laois side of Carlow town you aren’t supposed to shop in the town you live in because of an arbitrary line?
Not withstanding the 8-10 town the stradle the border and indeed cross at points the Kilkenny/ Carlow Laois border
Same applies to Offaly
I expect a descendance of Kildare residents on Dublin Gastro pubs this weekend
@Luke: Needs to be check points on all surrounding roads. Plenty of free Gardai around now given there’s none required for sports events and festivals.
@Sarah Connor: It’s not been mandated
“Advised”
The emergency powers afforded to the gardai have long since expired for that sort of lark
@Luke: Surely they can bring back emergency measures if required. Dont know what all the moaning here is about. It’s 3 counties for 2 weeks, yes it’s a pain for people and business’, but it’s better than having a major outbreak and total lock down.
@Sarah Connor: Not saying it’s good/ bad
Saying it won’t work
Sure it’s all related to specific outbreaks in workplaces for the most part
@Luke: Fair enough, I don’t think it’ll be too hard to police 3 counties though, plenty of Gardai around with nothing else going on.
@Luke: yeah my house is in laois and my garden shed is in carlow. I can’t cut the lawn now cos I can’t go to carlow to get the lawnmower. Alas this is life living on the border
@Luke: they’ll want to watch the drink driving.
How are people surpose to go to work this government is going around the twist
@Margaret Kane: the advice was that people who work outside one of the counties in lockdown can go to work
Would they not be better off closing the Meat Factories and Direct Provision centers ?
If they must bring back restrictions, then do it by radius of outbreak not by county borders which is not the best stratedgy.
Remember all the finger pointing at the dubs and their house parties! But it was the culchies all along!!!
Unless the guards are going to place a blockade on these counties this is not going to work and tbh I can’t see that happening,and what exactly is essential travel,most people would say every journey is essential,real problem lies in factories and processing plants,living conditions and travel arrangements of these workers,why not address these issues and have unannounced audits on these places of work,another example of ticking a box on a form by this government,by the way i am from Dublin and have no vested interests but it is wrong to make everyone suffer because these companies won’t put in the right procedures to deal with the pandemic.
Absolutely disgraceful, the good people of Kildare are being penalised because of the recent outbreaks in certain factories. We are going to lose another holiday, These factories are a national disgrace. Fuming.
What nonsense… city west is being paid 25 million a month .. all cases sent there for 14 days .. end of story.. but it’ll be used as an agenda as usual by this government
@James Reilly: Tell us about this agenda
@johnny onion eye: I must have missed that myself, I see people posting about it all the time but can’t get anyone to explain it.
@johnny onion eye: an agenda required competence, I fear the government have neither – and there is the real danger to life and liberty.
@Tony Humphreys: danger to life yes. Liberty no.
Build a wall around the “cultural people”
If your from the pale and were getting married in any of those counties you’re goosed.
I can’t see this having much of an effect, are there going to be the likes of garda checkpoints on the road in these counties as there were nationwide in March/April?
What will all the lads working in Intel do??
@Euro McPúnty: go to work as we have been since the start. Considered an essential service.
@Euro McPúnty: the new fab will probably be put on hold, existing fabs are essential services.
@David O’Shaughnessy: No it won’t as building sites are not closed down yet.
@Euro McPúnty: As an IT company they can probably facilitate remote working
This is what happens when you have zero leadership running the show. We just have people who care about nothing only themselves, thier Salary, pension & thier expenses running this country. They are not fit for the jobs they have and so they make it up as they go along. What could wrong ???
A totally unnecessary attack on these three counties. Fix the greedy companies that caused this.
Ughh just started a new job in a restaurant, do I qualify for PUP??
@Nathan Hayes: yep
108 comments and this article has been published 28 minutes ago. With a particular group of posters promoting a particular message and garnering more thumbs up than anyone else in very short period of time. This comments section in being brigaded.
Everyone, you are reading posts from anonymous posters on a news website that offers news for free. Expect disinformation!
@Bob Rock: all going wrong since masks
They’re saying essential travel only in these 3 counties yet retail shops like kildare village will still be mobbed by people travelling long distances. Where is the logic ?
@Irish Sean: agree completely. This is ridiculous. How can you leave these shops open? You are essentially giving out a message that it’s okay to go to these shops otherwise why would they be open and at the same time saying essential travel only. Farcical. If the lockdown is required then lock it down properly to reduce the time required.
@Irish Sean: Can Kildare residents not shop in Kildare Village?
As for the rest of us, we have the personal choice to adhere to the guidelines or not.
I have been considering booking a hotel stay in Laois in about 2 weeks time. So glad I decided to delay making the booking. Tough times balancing all of this, really difficult for those 3 counties.
@Seeking Truth: going to athlone and waterford for the next few days . wish me luck ! so much for staycation.
wanted to go to the telescope in birr I guess that will close now
@ed w: Athlone Castle is quite good if you have kids. Mine loved it, very interactive.
Loving all the journal experts on all sides of the arguments. I’m gonna run outta popcorn if you don’t all stop. But please keep going nom nom nom
I miss OPEN THE PUBS comments today
And will people living in these counties adhere to the guidelines when their neighbours have more freedom, I somehow doubt it, with certain people anyway! Time will tell.
Utterly ridiculous.
The Govt have had plenty of time to get a grip on this and come up with a structured and manageable exit plan. They got it wrong, and now we’re heading for another lockdown, where the many will suffer because of the actions of an irresponsible few.
@Brian McAll: this is part of the plan to covid19 and was all along. Leo said that local lockdowns could be possible. Surprise its just happened. What would you have advised them to do instead?
Those how follow the guidelines should make it socially unacceptable for people who won’t.
@Brian McAll: there’s no accounting for people’s stupidity, factory owners not obeying guidelines, house parties, no mask wearing, no personal hygiene, people traveling to Spain, Portugal and other countries not on the green list. It’s not possible for any government to eliminate the virus, only the population can do it.
Measures don’t go far enough.
michael martin does not sound well lately in interviews, out of breath and sounds like emphysema.
Correct decision, it has to be done to limit the spread
This is a load of ball ox Mehole Donnelly Glynn are ridiculously over cautious
no good total #lockdownnow
@Sean D: Why? Who will pay for it?
Is borris in ossary part of laois. If they are well theres your cluster
98 new cases today!! Hardly surprising they’re locked down.
Residents are only advised not to travel whats that about, tell them they cant travel End of, sure lots of ppl from those counties could be vacating all over the country over the nxt 2 weeks, typical ruling, making another bollox of of it again.
Go on and test all factories, bakeries etc, bet you’ll find them loads of cases
How are they going to police restrictions of coming back and forward to this area
@tuco: Checkpoints on all roads you would assume
@Sarah Connor: gonna take a lot of cops out in the middle of bog roads to nowhere so
Close all Off-licencies as well nation wide … a d open pubs ffs that does not mean nightclubs (keep them closed) for now …
Social distancing in pubs works,
It all comes down to management and hand sensitisation and social distancing
Divide and conquer.
Worked in uk and oz.
Comments on here sad as usual.
Covaddicts wet dream!!!
Pre cursor to the schools remaining closed!
Its going to be Birr all over
If you’re a veterinary that lives in Kildare can you travel to your practice in Clondalkin? Are animal vets excluded from the travel restrictions?
@RMChance55: I assume that would be essential work.
Unfortunately it’ll not be stopped so just get on with it.
More people are dying from other diseases because of it. Grow a set.
Stay home be good matties, biffos and lillies.
Not sure what’s so hard to wrap your heads around.
First wave. National lockdown…..that’s simply what pretty much every single country bar China has done.
Second wave/surge. Localised lockdown
Dublin isn’t in the throws of such a surge yet therefore does not need locking down.
Jesus H Christ. Get a grip.
Dublin should be lockdown aswell
The sooner businesses get the message and close forever then the sooner this madness ends.
What’s the story with hotels
The government won’t have to enforce the lockdown for responsible citizens. Enforcement will only be required for the few who think they are bullet proof right up to the time they get the virus and then bleat about how good the front line staff were in putting their lives on the line to look after the selfish fools
Since the pandemic began they have had 48%(overall) they didn’t have that figure all at once. That’s completely different then 75% of all cases in one day from effectively 2 counties.
Stop talking muck.
S t u p i d government and people who listen government
Don’t eat the Ofal!
Are hairdressers allowed remain open ?
“led” not “lead”.
Suitcases packed ….nowhere to go tomorrow….second time a holiday house had to be cancelled since April.
But it’s worth it…. if schools can benefit from the best Public Health learnings from the clusters in meat plants. Our children need their school life back for as long as possible between lockdowns.
Close the borders and make everyone wear a mask for 4 or 5 weeks? Does that eradicate the virus?
@The Culk: no
I think all the restraunts should be closed again as there are to many flaunting the rules
Also the smaller pubs in the country should be allowed to open
It not as though they will be packed.its been years since a country pub was full .Another thing that was taken from country people by that A**hole Ross
We were told to staycation this year.. so we booked our family holiday in the west.. supposed to go tomorrow
##joke alert please don’t be offended… As Tommy Tiernan I am only joking!! But who is gonna work in Dublin now! The workers can’t travel?????
No millenniums were hurt during this joke
What is the logic behind this? I am responsible the gov is not. I think there is a prisoner on the loose as I saw a police helicopter in the sky they are looking for someone
Government advised us to staycation this year.. we were supposed to be heading west in the morning..
Supposed to go on our ‘staycation’ in the morning, as was previously advised by our government..
have your say