Two dead, at least 17 wounded in Florida nightclub shooting

So gang violence doesn’t count as violence or the shooting of gang members doesn’t count as murder?

Last time someone posted that link, I went through the latest 5 mass shootings at that time just to check what they were. Three were gangland mass shootings (two of which were driveby’s), one was a murder-suicide and the fifth was unknown but the evidence was pointing towards another gangland shooting.

I’m sure a similar search now would produce similar results.

No Seán, it’s about representing the facts in an accurate and unbiased manner.

When you use the term ‘mass shooting’, people think of incidents like Columbine or Orlando where on person goes on to kill large numbers of innocent people. By claiming a ‘mass shooting every day’ occurs in the US, people have that imagery in their head.

The FBI’s phrase ‘live shooter event’ is much more neutral and more accurately portrays what most of these mass shootings actually are. There are very few mass shootings of innocents in the US, most are gangs shooting one another over drugs and territory.

It is nothing to do with one being less or more than the other, Sean. It is about how differing social problems are addressed and thus the impact on people’s lives, communities and the greater population. For example, if you got rid of legal guns tomorrow the biggest side of that statistic would not change. Just as a simplistic example.

I find myself agreeing with Jason, well, there you go, stranger things happen at sea.

There should be a distinction between mass shootings like this one and gang related shooting where the motive is usually payback, a drug/territory dispute.

The motive in this case was just to kill innocents

Not unbelievable in the US. I live in Texas where there are gun nuts everywhere, even in the Governor’s mansion. Republican run states are like that. They don’t card about the average person who has to deal with the aftermath.

Lemmy ffs

#YesThatsTheJoke

Own your mistake like a man Neal.

lets not wait, lets just speculate wildly

How is pointing out statistical facts racist Dave?

Get a source for every single “fact” you’ve put here and we’ll see where we’re at then

Sadly, Jason, you are rather selective in the way you present facts that support your prejudices against Black people. High crime rates have always been a problem among people who have historically been oppressed and deprived of the same rights and opportunities as people whom the Lord and Creator, in His infinite wisdom, made white like you, and it is a problem that tends to perpetuate itself across generations.

David poverty is NEVER an excuse for crime.

Who said it was an EXCUSE? It is, however, definitely a FACTOR that makes those afflicted by it more likely to resort to crime.

Well, citing all of my sources will be difficult given the Journal’s spam blocker, but I’ll give indirect citations which are clear to follow:

- Black people commit statistically more crime than other ethnic groups – FBI crime statistics 2015
- Gangs are predominantly black – FBI crime statistics reports going back a number of years
- Most gun crime in the US is committed by gangs – FBI on multiple occasions, both in their crime statistics report for 2015 and in their special report on mass shootings.
- Blacks make up the largest portion of the Fort Myers’ population – US Census 2010
- Fort Myers has a high violent crime rate compared to national average – http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/fl/fort-myers/crime/

So you were saying about me never citing my sources? How about you point out where I’ve been racist with supporting quotes and hold you up to the same standards that you hold me to?

Also don’t forget to point out that your demographic “fact” is wrong. The rate of violent crime has been going down year on year.

Rate of violent crime declining, percentage of population made up of African Americans also declining in the same period. That’s certainly some interesting information which deserves further research, wouldn’t you agree Dave?

My figures were out of date and I can admit I was wrong on that point. Now I think it’s only fair that you hold yourself to the same standards and show where I’ve been racist with supporting evidence and citations.

Further research? You? You don’t even provide sources. Can’t have people knowing how much time you spend on Breitbart. But it was big of you to acknowledge your inaccurate information

I just posted a list of claims that I’ve made in this article with the claim sources attached. Are you really going to claim that I can’t provide sources?

I didn’t realise I was debating with Stevie Wonder.

You didn’t prove a source. You’ve given very, very wide parameters that may lead someone searching to the wrong information. You could always just provide a link each time you make a claim but that would only debunk you quicker

I used to do that before Dave, funny enough. All that resulted in was people like yourself using it as a means to throw insults. Hell I was even told at one point that statistics aren’t actual facts and that I was a moron for posting sources with statistical evidence. Hence my system of sourcing when requested as I did 5 comments ago.

I also didn’t give very wide parameters. The names of my sources are in the comment. Google FBI Crime Report 2015 and it’s literally the first result. Google the 2010 American Census and it’s the first result. Google the FBI Report on Mass Shootings and I’m sure you can guess what result it is.

You’re scraping the end of the barrel at this point.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/tables/table-43 this for example is what I got when I searched for your first “source” apart from murder amd robbery, white people are charged with twice as many offences in each category

There is no equivalent source for 2015

So white people are arrested for twice as many crimes in the US outside of murder and robbery, yet for every black individual there are more than 5 white individuals in America. Come on Dave, even you are capable of basic calculation to figure out that this is a massively disproportional figure.

Jason, first that’s charged not arrested, second are you sure you’re OK with numbers that aren’t from your imaginary source. Yes crime is higher among the marginalised, the murder one is as we’ve all already admitted mostly down to gang activity as I’d wager are a lot of the assaults. 73% of violent crimes are committed by men,where’s your campaign against them?

What campaign Dave? he just cited what is widely known as a statistical fact

And yet he has failed to back it up. If it’s widely known surely that’s the easiest part

Failed to back it up? You just admitted it yourself that the stats are correct. I provided the sources which backed it up so I would appreciate it if you stopped pushing false claims like that.

You won’t though, in every debate we’ve ever had it’s been an uphill battle to get you to say anything that isn’t a barefaced lie or an insult.

Your source doesn’t exist. The one I posted is what I got when I searched your description but it is not what you claimed it was

Jason, some more hatefacts here https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/07/18/police-shootings-and-race/?tid=a_inl

Dave, I trust that the Washington Post is suitably liberal to be beyond reproach?

More of same https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/07/19/academic-research-on-police-shootings-and-race/ Anyone who wants the awful truth can buy it here https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1594038759/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=thewaspos09-20&camp=1789&creative=9325&linkCode=as2&creativeASIN=1594038759&linkId=34bdf0bc0215f34b0c35d15fd54f9b22

John, you do realise those articles are about police being shot and killed and not about mass shootings right?

God Jason just go away ..your grey face ..in your little grey office ..in some corner of grey Netherlands. .your dull opinions on everything ..get a girlfriend…go out ..start drinking heavely. .do drugs ..but for the love of god ..Shut up.

Hatefacts, indeed.

Roly

That’s a very strange reaction to someone telling statistical truths. It’s also strange that you go after the guy telling the truth but ignore the perennially wrong Dave O’Keefe

Jynxy, it’s not my fault that I provide links and sources for anything I claim.to be a fact. Also Roly, go away if you’re not going to debate the issue. There’s no need to just come on here and make assumptions about Jasons life.

Jesus Dave, do you want Jason to wipe your arse for you too??

Dave

Seriously stop and think before you write. Everything you are saying is wrong or does not make any sense. Jason is correct in this instance and it would behoove you to acknowledge that you were wrong.

You are not debateing ..just arguments. .that’s all you 2 ever do ..you guys take over so many articles. .it’s just got boring now.

“You are not debateing ..just arguments”

I think you’ll find that a debate is an argument. I’m sorry if the two people who are most interested in getting their side of the argument, whatever it may be, out there for public scrutiny on a public forum designed for exactly that offends you.

They really need to add comic sans for sarcasm.

You know The Volokh Conspiracy is a libertarian opinion column written by those libertarians run out of the Republican Party by Bill Buckley in the 60s, right? They are John Birchers aka white supremacists under a veneer of pseudo intellectualism.

The US are also to blame for the killings in Iraq.

Why not joe?

True but we can also thank USA for protecting our butts also

the US are protecting their interests, you’re an unintended consequence

Jason, facts… the Journal… Looking for a ban?

Pants up, Don’t Loot

The African American community has respect for youths? That must be why they give children gainful employment as drug mules within gangs, put them through volatile household conditions (blacks in America have by far the highest spousal separation numbers and single parent families which is statistically proven to hinder development of children) and foster a hatred of authority and self-development from a young age.

Also in your rush to blame this entirely on Islam you forgot the inconvenient fact that 25% of all Muslims in the US are black.

‘The African American community has respect for the youth’

Eh? The majority of fathers don’t respect their own children enough to stick around.

Don’t let that fact get in the way of knocking African Americans ..

When you’re poor the odds are stacked against you in the American legal system ..As blacks are more targeted, this means that a lot of those dads are in prison,even if it is just a minor crime like a traffic offence ..

70% of births in the black community in america are to single mothers. 70%.

Why are they more likely to go to prison Francis? Wouldn’t happen to do with the fact that a black man has on average a much longer criminal record compared to other ethnic groups, thereby resulting in statistically longer prison sentences for comparable crimes?

Scarr – one of the main reasons for that is their living conditions .Nice try though ..

Link please for your stats on single-parent family development? Seems a bit selective to me. Plenty of good parents and grandparents do an excellent job of raising children on their own or with help: it can’t be the sole factor.

20% more likely to get a longer sentence, far more likely to need a state appointed lawyer, more likely to enter a plea deal regardless of guilt

Jason, if black people are 39% and the majority What’s the other 61%?

Typical Jason comes on here with no evidence to back up his thinly veiled racism

A mix of Hispanic, Asian,Native American Indian, Polynesian, middle eastern and white.

Obviously but in what percentages

How can 39% black be a majority?

30% white, 32% Hispanic, not quite the massive disparity implied

Fiona – (to be exact) 67% single mothers. 73% born to non-married parents. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/jul/29/don-lemon/cnns-don-lemon-says-more-72-percent-african-americ/

Maths has never been a strong point for me but doesn’t 39+32+30=101? So one of you has got to be wrong or where you getting your stats from is.

Francis – What does that even mean?

One of us never said 39%

Here are the real numbers

http://www.city-data.com/city/Fort-Myers-Florida.html

It’s great that the Journal’s “classical liberals” now have two groups to make assumptions about . Makes the guessing game before actual facts are released much more fun

One of ye did but don’t let get that in the way of your points scoring

Ah mow in fairness Jason did try floating the idea of blaming black Muslims

The one that didn’t was me stupid

@ Francis – It’s more complex, needs a nuanced answer :

1) slavery separated women from their partners, encouraged breeding versus family life

this creates a culture of single mothers, over the course of 150 years, it is normalised

Slaves didn’t get married

they didn’t have wedding ceremonies

2) The stupid a$$ government tied receiving benefits with marital status

so if you need public assistance and you are married, you get SFA

only single parents can receive benefits

The second you get married you lose:
Funding
Food Vouchers
Housing
Health Insurance

The benefits model was planned around WHITE PEOPLE, with Dad who has the job and mom who stays home …But now with welfare reform, they are forced to work and can only get 5 years of welfare

The lad studied race/racism in university

Hope this helps..

West Cork Lad

That is very interesting information to know -thank you ..

So basically,if the women have very reasonable fears that if they got married and their ‘hubby’ gets locked up, then you get nothing, absolutely no incentive to get married..

“Ah mow in fairness Jason did try floating the idea of blaming black Muslims”

You went so far off the point that I made that you’re close to going into orbit.

Jimmy was trying to make the claim that the African American community is completely fine in the US and that all of their ills can be blamed on Muslims. I merely pointed out the hitch in his claim that 25% of all Muslims in the US are African American, thereby making his point a contradiction of itself.

This isn’t an explanation for you though as you’re obviously just phishing for anything you think you can use to belittle me or my point, this is for those who might actually believe your BS attempts at slander.

Jason, in the Muslim population of America, black people are the smallest single race. But sire go on ahead, we have your two favourite topics going now

Well there you you go resorting to name calling great way to win an argument. I was fully aware which one of you said 39%.

Sorry, that’s inaccurate, smallest of the bigger races ie white, Arab, Asian black

Rotarua, I fail to see what your point is at all. Two people separately presented different numbers. You added those sets of numbers together. That’s neither of those people’s fault

Only that one of you presented the wrong statistics.

“Jason, in the Muslim population of America, black people are the smallest single race. But sire go on ahead, we have your two favourite topics going now”

Dave, it seems that I was 100% accurate when I said at the bottom of my comment that you wouldn’t even bother to read my point for anything other than phishing for ammo.

You’re still hammering on at an insinuation of racism when I basically contradicted an argument looking to deport all Muslims from the US. In your assumption that I’m a racist and a bigot, you missed me countering arguments for deporting Muslims. Then you try to use that against me to claim that I’m racist.

In your rush to paint me as a racist, you really made yourself look like a fool.

Only that one of you has presented incorrect stats that was my point.

Yes Rotarua, Jason has already admitted his number was wrong

Not wrong Dave, outdated. My numbers were from 2010 while yours were from 2015. That doesn’t mean they were wrong (unless you want to call up the US Census and report an inaccuracy) but the population has been shifting since then.

Jason, reporting 6 year old numbers as current facts is what then?

I see you’re still dodging my point. Do you not concede that calling me a racist and a bigot for a comment where I counter an argument calling for the deportation of all Muslims from the US is wrong?

How exactly does pointing out that 25% of Muslims in America are black argue against deporting Muslims in a story in which you’re sure the perpetrators are black?

It’s showing that his entire reasoning is based on contradictory logic. Do I have to spell everything out for you Dave?

While also giving a link between your theory and his

Have any of you been to Fort Myers? It is essentially a retirement town. During the winter the population vastly increases and they are known as snow birds. The go there to avoid the cold winter months elsewhere. Huge amount of Germans go there. It is actually a pretty nice place and not the hellhole being described. My friends don’t lock their door because they feel.so safe

Barack Obamas mum was a single mum

Government policy is probably not formulated with much reference to below the line comments from randos on the journal to be fair.

Since when do gangs shoot up teenage discos?

Lee Memorial hospital, which is treating 16 victims from the shootings, says that the youngest person is just 12 years old, while the oldest is 27
That`s just a snapshot of the age group we are dealing with here Neal – lots of teenage gang members carry guns in the “good ole US of A”

Ha ha… Thumb Jihadis. How can you downplay anything when there have been no details released Patrick?

@KallEll.. This posting was meant for the German Muslim terror bombing and so my mistake.
But why preface with a laugh? It reminds me of the Jihadis laughing after a beheading!

Everything reminds you of Jihadis that’s the problem Patrick. I laughed because you see Shariah and Jihad everywhere someone disagrees with you. It reminds me of McCarthyism

Patrick Edgar Hoover is at it again.

@Motherofdivinejebus………..My post is reposted to the Muslim terror bar bombing in Germany where I meant it to be but made an error.
I don’t FEEL stupid at all. An honest mistake in my books. It’s the Muslim Jihadi-supporters who have blood on their hands that need do a lot of soul-searching..

@David O Keeffe……..Must be one of the 50% of your ilk in UK without a job that you have time to run off at the mouth here all day and night……….