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A FORMER AMBASSADOR and one of Ireland’s most prominent former civil servants has criticised the government’s decision to close Ireland’s embassy to the Holy See.
Seán Donlon, a former secretary-general at the Department of Foreign Affairs who has also served as Ireland’s ambassador to the United States, said the closure meant Ireland would miss opportunities to have input in Church policies.
“The policies of the Catholic Church are formulated in the Holy See,” Donlon told RTÉ’s Morning Ireland. “Irish bishops are appointed by the Holy See, and Irish bishops are individually responsible to the Holy See for the implementation of that policy.”
For this reason, he said, it was important that Ireland be “adequately represented” in the Vatican, “to fine-tune the policy that’s being formulated, and to be available for co-operation on a daily basis.”
While the Vatican has traditionally refused to accredit ambassadors who are also ambassadors to Italy, Donlon said it was still possible to double up on office accommodation for two separate ambassadors with “two doors in the same building, and two separate plaques”.
Donlon also argued that although Ireland may have been tempted to cut diplomatic ties in the wake of various child abuse scandals, similar moves had been contemplated with the UK in the 1970s at the onset of the Troubles.
Times of political turmoil, he said, were “a time when diplomacy comes into its own”.
Ireland’s new ambassador to the Holy See, who is non-resident in Rome, is David Cooney – who also holds Donlon’s old role as chief civil servant within the Department.
Donlon said Cooney was a sensible appointment, as he had previously been stationed at the Holy See embassy earlier in his career, but that his time would be hampered by the responsibilities of his Department job.
Donlon has also previously acted as a special advisor to then-taoiseach John Bruton, and the Fine Gael advisor on Northern Ireland – further underlining the tensions within FG at the decision by foreign affairs minister Eamon Gilmore, of Labour, to shut the embassy.
It emerged in yesterday’s Sunday Business Post that the Holy See embassy was not among an original list of Irish missions earmarked for closure in a review of government spending earlier last year.
Though the Department of Foreign Affairs made a submission to a comprehensive spending review, in which it suggested closing the embassies in Iran and Timor Leste, the proposal to shut the Vatican one was made at a later date.
A spokeswoman for the Department said the decision to shut the Vatican premises “resulted from a review of overseas missions and the deployment of the Department’s reduced resources carried out by the Department at official level”.
“It did not arise at the initiative of the Tánaiste or any other member of Government,” she said.
He’s deluding himself if he thinks the vatican gives two shits about what Irish Catholics think.
Why we need diplomatic relations with a church ?
Haha this is laughable, according to this guy we wont be able to ‘influence the Vatican’.
He must have a very short memory because it was the Vatican who were influencing Irish politics right up to the 1990s. Their grubby fingerprints can be seen right through the Irish Constitution which reserves ‘a special place’ for the Church and dictates that women should stay at home and not work.
The influence has been a one way street which was facilitated by spineless politicians. Now we’ve put a road block on that street and so it should remain.
The vatican is trying very hard to make it look like that we want them back and not the other way round.
Derek – let’s deal with facts. There is nothing in the Constitution or in Catholic teaching saying that women must work at home.
The Constitution upholds the ideal that women should not be forced into outside employment out of economic necessity. It’s different to saying that they shouldn’t work outside the home.
And by the way, that’s a policy that should be supported by all anti-austerity types.
Almar, just because it wasn’t something they ever wrote down, doesn’t mean they didn’t influence the perception of working women in society.
FF and SF senators wanted to invite Ratzinger on an official visit to this country now this person thinks it was a mistake to close the embassy. The vatican seems to be up to its usual tricks and using its political contacts in this country.
Am i bovvered…….?
In all fairness, why on earth should we even be concerned about having any avenue open to us to provide input into the Catholic church. Now don’t get me wrong, I’m religious, but not to the extent that I allow people to dictate what I should believe in and what to do and not to do. As far as I’m concerned, the closure of this office will save good money which can be put into much more useful alternatives!! With a country which is in debt and unable to turn over a profit for many years to come (a profit which we can call our own!!), any money available to us should be channelled into vital services to keep the country ticking over. I just don’t follow the logic of some idiots who think the money is actually ours to spend on anything they so wish. Seeing as it all has to be paid back + interest, why are we even bothering to debate such meaningless topics?
I see some pro-paedophile arseholes thumbed me down! Watch out folks, they’re among us.
Hmm, so somebody took offence to my original comment, eh? Let me refrase it then, for those of a weaker dispositon who likely snapped their McVities digestive in half in shock when they read it (poor souls).
The reason I’m going to re-write it is because since a mod has deleted it, all the replies to it (which are still there) now make no sense. So, here goes – to paraphrase:
We should erect a sign there that says “Please stay away, Catholic Church. We are not pleased with your support of known paedophiles and we feel a modest sense of dsgust at the thought of dealing with you. Thank you.”
The Knights of Saint Columbanus are working hard in DoFA. That Labour TD was right to call for screening for senior public servants that show undue deference to the catholic church.
And did that Labour TD call for the same screening to be done on Muslims, Jews and other religious types or was it just the Catholics? If he didn’t, then surely that’s a form of religious discrimination – which he as a Labour TD should surely be fighting against.
As for what the former diplomant says, one point is very interesting… “Donlon said it was still possible to double up on office accommodation for two separate ambassadors with ‘two doors in the same building, and two separate plaques’.”
Hmmm… one way out of the political mess for Gilmore perhaps? After all 61 TD’s (from ALL parties and none!) did attend a meeting with a lay group against the closure last week.
When the government pay nineteen imams or rabbis up to €73,000 a year to say mass or whatever they do in every barracks in ireland every sunday (or friday) I’d be happy to have the deference examined of whatever muslim or jew in the department of defence negotiated the deal for the state. http://www.atheist.ie/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4885
When the government pays €9 million per year to employ muslim or jewish chaplains in VEC schools I’d be happy to have the deference examined of whatever muslim or jew in the department of education negotiated the deal for the state.
And when the government lets muslim or jewish congregations away with paying a small fraction of the compensation for persons abused in muslim or jewish institutions with the connivance of the state I will ber happy to have the deference examined of whatever muslim or jew in the dept of taoiseach negotiated the deal for the state.
Until then catholics in the senior public service should be questioned as to what secret catholic society they belong to and whether they hold more loyalty to the CC than the republic.
Also if you have been following the story those arrogant crossdressing paedophile protectors in the vatican will not allow one embassy serve both italy and their corrupt little state…..oh no the vatican want a tray of Ferrero Rocher all of their own…bastards.
“Ireland would miss opportunities to have input in Church policies.”
Who cares about their policy’s? Not like we have to follow or even enter our thoughts. If they all want to say longer mass, wear banana costumes or change the font on their records of reported abuse cases, to each their own.
State and church should be separate. Works both ways.
Banana costumes… conjured up a wonderful mental image there. Thanks for that :)
Church is missing opportunities to have input in Ireland policies more like. Calling in a few favours.
Long walk.short pier.
Technically, the Catholic Church’s policies are set by God, who does not rule by democratic consent, but is instead the Monarch of Monarchs.
Best point so far. So the Monarch of Monarchs is waiting to hear the view of some Party hack from the Republic of Oreland?
You have got the golden pension and pay off best now if you offered constructive opinion instead of following sister creighton and the Rome for ever squad
Delusional, this chap. Vatican influence, he’s ‘avin a laugh! Clown.
The Vatican has a very poor record on protecting the civil rights of children in the care of its institutions. In many cases it worked against the victims and supported child rapists. The Irish government doesn’t seem to have had much success ‘fine tuning’ Vatican policies in the past in this area. Closing the embassy was the only protest likely to have been heard by the Vatican. I wonder how many FG TDs favouring the reopening of the embassy have discussed the matter with the victims of clerical abuse and their families?
In fairness:
A: You’re hiding behind a pseudonym
B: You’re advocating a ridiculous piece of graffiti that’d be a waste of time & resources, lose us respect from third parties & paint a big group of people with the same brush.
If it was humour, it wasn’t funny, if you really do want a sign put up, you’re looking to waste more of our time & funds on an angry rant.
The Church acted scummy. No need for the rest of us to act scummy in return.
Can anyone point out an instance or two where Ireland having an ambassador accredited to the Holy See actually resulted in us influencing or fine-tuning any Vatican policies at all? Merely citing the possibility of it, as Sean Donlon has done, isn’t much of an argument.
Its a fair point Seamus.
I am not actually sure what the ammbassador to the holy sea actually does never mind the other 70 odd embassies that are placed all over the world.
Let me guess…most of them were appointed at the end of one party’s reign in government?
Colm:
A: What difference does it make what name I post from? Does stalking people’s accounts somehow validify or nullify their statements? Use some logic please.
B: Don’t be a mong. It was an expression of anger towards the church, I don’t actually think there should be said sign erected (although we should be as outspoken as possible against those evil turds).
Agreed.
Opus Dei or Knights of Columbanus, which I wonder? the Lord works in mysterious ways.
“The policies of the Catholic Church are formulated in the Holy See,” Donlon told RTÉ’s Morning Ireland. “Irish bishops are appointed by the Holy See, and Irish bishops are individually responsible to the Holy See for the implementation of that policy.”
For this reason, he said, it was important that Ireland be “adequately represented” in the Vatican, “to fine-tune the policy that’s being formulated, and to be available for co-operation on a daily basis.”
Do we really need a fine tuned policy document called “Best Practice for the Catholic Church to Help Stop Grown Men Sticking Their Bodies Parts Into Childrens Orifices”. Its enough to drive you to prayer i tell ya
If diplomatic relation are important for the Vatican, then why not do as other nations might do, and send a trade delegation to our emerald shores?
if we don’t want churche influence in our politics, i don’t see why we should have influence in theirs.
we don’t have any influence in their David!!
im not saying we do, im saying why would we want it, in response
On past history the Vatican and all within have NOT been listening to Irish people or people from anywhere else. This man is sadly delusional
A chance to influence Catholic church policy? Not a hope in hell!
All they want to do (via their puppets still it seems) is influence our own!
Stuff Rome and stuff any Vatican embassy!
Financial stupidity to open it ever up again!
Firstly … was having a say on church policy worth the 400,000 euro that the embassy cost to keep open? Secondly why should a country be in direct communication with a religious organisation? As far as I am concerned there should be no connection between a state and a single religion.
…”inlfuence Catholic church policy…” now this made me laugh!
Yes Sovereign Being. If you’re going to have opinions can you please make sure that they aren’t strong opinions as some of us find that offensive.
Also, please don’t swear as we are incapable of looking past a few naughty words to actually look at the point of your arguements. Whatever the paedophiles did or didn’t do, there’s no need to make the situation worse with foul language.
Also, this whole pseudonym nonsense has got to stop. If you are going to post opinions on the internet, at least have the decency to include your full name, address, date of birth and your PPS number if you have it close at hand.
The Vatican do not care aboutthe people on their own doorstep the Italians never mind about the Irish, as a highly pensioned ex civil servant it would be typical of Donlon to see usless and money eating embassies kept open and jobs for the boys on tap, the vatican will never change its spots and its own self intrest is its own prioriety,do not forget how long it took to address the irish clerical abuse subject,Donlon is a dinosaur who has had a cushy ride and now wants to pontificate about the benefits about keeping this farce open
Is it not possible to Amalgamate the two embassies For example the Irish embassy to Italy could also serve Vatican interests.
I myself would like to continue our time honoured tradition of tea and biscuits with the Vatican. My door is always open to the local clergy should they wish to drop in for a chat by the fireside. Afterwards we could go to the local church disco and bogey on down to the sweet sounds of such rockin classics as “nearer my god to thee” or “The lord is my Shepard and I shall not want, except for a new Audi A5 convertible”.
“the closure meant Ireland would miss opportunities to have input in Church policies” Since when has Ireland ever had ‘input’ into catholic church policies? Surely he means that the other way around, ie the catholic church practically writing Ireland’s social, health and education policies! This muppet is away with the fairies or the saints or some other fantastical creatures! Why is there such a fuss being made over closing down an embassy to a religion? It’s not even a proper country we are talking about here. Why don’t these people just accept the fact that it is a waste of taxpayers money and get over it.
Glad someone’s happy. Seriously though, does Sean Donlon really believe that an Irish embassy is really going to influence the policies of the holy see? I think that closing the embassy sends a stronger message than an eternity of polite requests from an ambassador.
I was about to say the same Colm F…You beat me to it :)
And I will add just one more comment
Bad language such as you use Sovereign B is not nice !
you know something Sovereign Being there is a lot of anger
out there over so many things and people are justifiably so, but please
try not to add to it . I have no time for the church either .
You mind yourself.
On matters relating to diplomacy I would listen to a person with Mr.Donlon’s experience rather than the deranged bigots here. Thank you and good day.
If you agree with Mr. Donlon on this matter then I put it to you, Sir, that you are the one who is deluded. Good day and a spiffing evening to you.
Have you considered that the only deranged bigots here are yourself Brennan and Donlon or maybe he is a relation of yours
I cannot believe the discrimination that I am reading from some contributors
Saying things about screening people on religious grounds before they can get jobs
Its reminiscent of Northern Ireland in the 1960s
The saddest part is that a similar proposal came from the Labour party in Dublin Central a few weeks ago
Life is about tolerance
I don’t think the commentator was saying that people should declare their religion; just the names of the Organisations they belong to ; e.g. Opus Dei etc. I’d certainly be interested to know
Adam, you made my day… actually laughed out loud! Nice one.
The amount of attention this matter has received is simply bizarre and I would suggest that those political figures (mainly in FG) who seem intent on humouring the tiny but vocal minority exercised by this, instead focus on issues of real concern to people because this is a complete non-story in the real world.
As for Mr Donlon’s intervention, he really does himself no favours by comparing the importance of maintaining links with our nearest neighbour and main trading partner to a so-called state in the middle of Rome. And as for influence, successive Irish governments were downright sycophantic in their approach to the vatican and look how that turned out!
It really is well past time this nonsense was put to bed.
You say sarcasm, I say rapier wit.
I can’t see why Ireland would want to affect the Church’s policies, or those of any other religion for that matter.
@ Eileen, as I understand it the Vatican will not accept an Ambassador who has a dual position as ambassador to Italy.
Backtracking now would send a strong message that we lack any resolve and that removing the vatican embassy was only a token gesture.
Eileen maybe you should grow a thicker skin, eh?
Grow up? What makes you say that? It seems we share the same list of the types of people we don’t have time for (apart from drug dealers – they come in different grades and weed dealers are harmless, nay essential). If you are offended by some swearing then that’s on you, not me. I won’t apologise for it. If you’re offended by Adam’s sarcasm then that’s also on you and for you alone to deal with.
Grow up little boys . your sarcasm is certainly not lost on me .
I have no time for pedophiles /rapists / murderers/ bank robbers , thieves of any kind , muggers , drug dealers arsonists or arseholes .
Wow, what utter fiddle dee diddle dee diiiiiddle dooo crap.
Ah now, watch yer P’s & Q’s der now boyo, sure tis terrible language der now, would ye not be usin the oul gutter language der now fiddleee diddleee dooo.
Ah sure dint I spill me oul Tae der now Sovereign,so in shock was I with your terrrible terrible gutter talk fiiddlleee dee doooooddlee doooo.
Now Sovereign, if you are going to form an opinion, make sure you first form it with the prior approval of the nation at large. If you wish to subsequently express said opinion, make sure you do so whilst trying at the same time to please everybody and offend nobody.
Sure tis a few oul pretend Moderators der now like, that you be upsetin der now like, going forward. Actually,like
Now try der ta be a good boy an don be upsettin de oul punters
Janey Mac
It is as you say what message does it send about the governments resolve
OK >I suppose I could have a thicker skin ,and I am sorry if I come across as cranky . But I just think Pedophilia is so serious ….
They should leave that embassy in the Vatican closed . Kenny absolutely did the right thing in closing it down , now they might back track…. What message is that sending? There is an Irish Embassy in Rome .What is wrong with using that one ?
Sovereign, Nationwide is on RTE 1 now, you have 30 minutes to get everything off your chest before the politically correct & thumbs down brigade return.
Sovereign, Nationwide is on RTE 1 now, you have 30 minutes to get it all off your chest before the politically correct crowd return.
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