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THE FREE SCHOOLBOOKS Scheme will be expanded to include Leaving Certificate students from next year, the government has announced.
First introduced for primary schools in 2023 and to be expanded to Junior Cycle students this September, the free schoolbooks scheme aims to reduce financial pressure on parents.
But the scheme has been described as “death by a thousand cuts” for booksellers, who have fears for the future of the industry.
Just this week another bookseller closed their doors, bringing the total number of closures nationwide since the scheme began to 11.
Dawn Behan of Booksellers Ireland says the expansion to Senior Cycle was “expected, but disappointing”.
The representative group has consistently called for a voucher system to be implemented so parents can buy schoolbooks in-store at no cost to themselves, while continuing to spread out the business shops get.
“It spreads out the cost throughout the summer and it eases the issues that arise with delivering books to schools all at once,” Behan explained.
A lack of footfall in-store and small shops competing with large businesses for contracts means more closures are expected as a result today’s Budget measure.
While booksellers largely support the scheme’s purpose, they’ve consistently warned the Department of Education that, in its current form, it could have devastating effects.
Due to the procurement process, many smaller bookshops have been adversely affected. Schools are required to get quotes from three different retailers, and must choose the cheapest.
As a result, some shops have had to give major discounts on products and say they have had to introduce further cuts to what were already small margins.
I don’t care if you support yes or no, you don’t have the right to pull down a ‘yes’ poster or a ‘no’ poster.
Considering the antics they scheme and the misinformation they spread, I wouldn’t be surprised if it was No campaigners themselves removing the posters in an attempt to to get media attention to their ’cause’.
Could work both ways.
Can we even believe them when they say their posters were removed? Do they have proof? Are there independent witnesses to verify those putting up ‘no’ posters were harrassed?… At this stage, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if this is just another desperate ploy the ‘no’ side are using to try to detract from the fact that the referendum simply asks: ‘Marriage may be contracted in accordance with law by two persons without distinction as to their sex?’.
Nah, it wouldn’t work “both ways” because the Yes side already has all the media attention. Mainly because we are on the right side of history and we all know it.
To be fair if I seen any of these posters outside my childs school etc I would remove them not only do the raise questions from children its highly insensitive to my nephew who lost his mother when he was only 3 as if rubbing in his face he doesn’t have a mother was bad enough kids are school are starting to take notice he doesnt have a mother when it was never even given a second thought beforehand.
@ Al Fonso
I don’t think you’re being very fair and you seem to assume no voters are bad, out of touch people but I would just like to remind you of this.
Same Sex relationships were shunned in the past and obviously many lesbians and gays have suffered for this, many in very cruel ways and now public opinion is changing. Some people are fine with it now, others aren’t comfortable and would see approving this referendum as ‘redefining marriage and parenthood’ I’m not say whether or not that is my view but that’s what I’ve learned from it so far.
I think a fair thing to do would be to be respectful towards No voters no matter how much you disagree with them is to have respect and if you want to show your disagreement do it by debating facts and your points and reasoning for voting yes as what you are doing right now is giving No voters a label of being out of touch schemers who are homophobic which I don’t think is true. If you truly want to be better than them do it by being above that and by respecting people’s right to their own opinion and decision. Thanks if you take this on board :-)
The right side if history, how do you think the world became populated 50k years ago.
Go look at any straight family even those who are unable to have children, there is a lineage of family resemblance that can go back decades.
That would be very sad indeed but I’d recommend making a complaint first otherwise you could get into a bit of trouble. That’s an awful thing to happen to him though and I wish him all the best.
At no point I’ve said ‘no voters are bad’. At first I was refering to the campaigners, mainly thinking of the Iona institute that, to me, represent a form of evil.
Then with the ‘wrong side of history’ I think about slave owners that thought they were doing the best for their slaves. Because the slaves wouldn’t be able to do anything for themselves so they needed to be owned to protect them from themselves.
That’s exactly how I see the no voters. They think they are doing the best for society because they cannot understand that it could be better any other way. They are not bad, just blinded. They can say the exact same thing about Yes voters.
But looking at how other countries are legislating around same sex marriage, I have no doubt that marriage equality is the future, and not the other way around.
@David Nolan. Marriage is not related to procreation. Gay people will continue having sex and, unsurprisingly, no children will be conceived. Straight people will continue having sex at about the same rate and, also unsurprisingly, gay children will be conceived.
I’ve read elsewhere that schools are contacting Mothers & Fathers Matter to have their No posters removed from the vicinity of school grounds. Which is somewhat ironic.
Has this been verified, and are M&FM including these requests in their “pull down” statistics?
I don’t condone any pulling down of any poster, but I do have to wonder if M&FM have sought to orchestrate this media attention by deliberating putting up posters which are both irrelevant to the topic of the Referendum, and likely to cause offence to sections of the general populace?
@Al Fonso
I don’t like the Iona Institute either but to say they represent a form of evil is a bit much for me.
I don’t think the analogy of slave owners is an effective one and the original post was very vague in regards to it but you have decided to clear that up now which is fine, I’m not saying I agree with what you’re saying but it’s your opinion.
I’m on the fence about the referendum and I’m still not sure which side I’m going to pick and to be perfectly honest when I was thinking about voting Yes many of your own campaigners have put me off the idea as I’ve seen a terrible hypocrisy growing within the campaign with some people.
I think the ‘Yes’ campaign has been just as bad as the ‘No’ campaign in regards to the issues we’ve seen and no side deserves the full share of the blame when they both deserve it.
I just hope you can be more clear in what you say for the future as you may end up offending someone which is obviously not what we want in civilized debate or at the very least we want to minimize it. Thanks
@winding from what I have read, no voters seem they are inextricably linked which I think is fair having heard some of their argument behind it.
I know of a Yes canvasser who was told by a No voter that they were voting no because they “don’t condone buggery”.
Also another who was told by a No voter that they were voting No “in order to save the canvasser’s soul”.
Also another was told by a No voter that they have actively turned away gay couples from their B&B.
The No side do not have a monopoly on being “harassed” – and they definitely need to take their minds out of other peoples’ bedrooms.
We all need to take a deep breath and focus on the actual issues in this Referendum. The people whose lives will be actually affected by it deserve that courtesy.
Yes the school have made a compliant and if they are not down by monday (when the kids are back) they will be removed, thankfully alot of parents agree that its not right to be including the children in this debate
There is no debate, the only issues no campaigners are bringing up have NOTHING to do with the referendum itself. Surrogacy, protection of children. Right to a mother and a father. None of these have anything to do with the referendum and they are only being brought into the discussion to confuse people on the fence. I find that disgraceful, and, ultimately, evil. For there are honest people on the fence that actually believe the nonsense the no campaginers are using to defend their bigotry.
I haven’t seen anyone claiming no voters are claiming a monopoly on it but I think of the two people you mentioned one was rude and I don’t think that was a nice thing to say at all. In regards to the second one that one seems okay with me even a bit of a nice way to say it if that person firmly believes they are saving the canvassers soul.
If they turned away gay couples that’s a bad thing to do but it’s them the fools that are losing business in the end.
Bear in mind I took all of your points and instances/scenarios as if they are true and giving you the benefit of the doubt :)
No argument has swayed me yet by the way guys, still on the fence :P
@ Sharon
Glad to hear, that would have been hard on the kid. I think neither Yes nor No posters should be allowed near schools but that’s just personal opinion. (Primary Schools anyway)
@ Al Fonso
It’s all a matter of opinion it seems to me at the end of the day, no one’s opinion has swayed me because they are so sure they are right they don’t seem to want to have a more in depth look at both sides ( in my opinion but explain to me why if im wrong)
I think I will really decide on the matter when I have a study of the difference between civil partnership and marriage because It’s confusing me a bit so basically I will tell you guys what I know about the whole thing and my opinion on different issues.
I would first like to point out my lack of knowledge in regards to the actual meaning of marriage and it’s function (indepth anyway) and the different between civil partnership.
I think that in regards to it being performed in a church/place of worship that the ceremony should only be held if the church/place of worship allows it. If it is in regards to simply being recognized by the state I’m happy with it going through.
If marriage is relevant and actually relating to children as much as one’s partner then I think they do have a place in arguments by both sides because that would mean re-defining it.
To be fair the only decision anyone should be making on this is whether they believe that SSC should be allowed the same level of status regarding marriage in Ireland to that of a hetero couples in the eyes of the state only (therefore protecting the church for those that want it)
The whole redefining of marriage it to account that marriage is no longer the bases for a family to be fair its not for most of modern society
I was married in the eyes of the state (after having a child) to the man I love and have committed my life to in that I trust him to make decisions for me when I am unable to do so myself ahead of my parents/siblings etc.
I am voting yes so that my child whether she falls in love with a man or woman can freely commit the same way I have to my husband and she will not have to take a second rate marriage (civil partnerships) to do so.
A better analogy would be the civil rights marches in N. Ireland during the 60′s and 70′s. I personally think a lot of the No campaign posters should be removed as they are misleading people about the vote.
Anyone doubting whether a Yes voter would ever stoop to such things should just go on Twitter and see @i_am_ammo boasting about it
In every Star Trek I’ve seen. People loose their corporeal forms to become pure energy and reproduce differently ,but then again THATS SCIENCE FICTiON !
How desperate are the no side if they have to resort to laughable extinction event sensationalism. News flash – the earth’s human population is over 7 billion, and if it keeps on going this way, overpopulation will kill us all off long before your god bestirs himself to punish us for letting gay people get married.
Children deserve not to be lied to via ridiculously oversimplified election posters created by a group of grown adults who don’t seem to understand that the world is a complex place full of diverse individuals who could not possibly live up their perverse ideals of love. Children need love, care and respect……not lies, hate and agendas.
Good comment, FairR. i too am undecided, I don’t know how I will vote and I will probably onlydecide on the day.
@FairR:
Your Question:
“I would first like to point out my lack of knowledge in regards to the actual meaning of marriage and it’s function (indepth anyway) and the different between civil partnership.”
Answer:
1. Until last month when the Child & Family Relationship Act was past, there were 160 distinctions between Civil Partnership and Civil Marriage. That list has been whittled down, but some significant ones remain. For example:
A. Civil Partnership is based in Statute. It exists at the pleasure of the Oireachtas and may be repealed at any future point by any conservative government. By contrast, Civil Marriage is protected by the Constitution. So at present, the State can disolve homosexual partnerships, but NOT straight marriages.
B. A civil partner has no relationship with the children s/he may be jointly rearing. For example, if a civil partner is ill in hospital, his/her “family” are not entitled to visit.
More here: http://www.marriagequality.ie/getinformed/marriage/faqs.html
“I think that in regards to it being performed in a church/place of worship that the ceremony should only be held if the church/place of worship allows it. If it is in regards to simply being recognized by the state I’m happy with it going through.”
You are being asked to vote on civil marriage ONLY – not on holy matrimony. Civil Marriages take place in a Registry Office/similar venue before a civil servant. All religions and faiths will continue to celebrate holy matrimony as they have always done. This will not change irrespecctive of the Referendum result.
@FairR:
More detailed explanations of the issues involved can be found on the website of the State Referendum Commission. The Commission is impartial and unbiased, and is chaired by a Justice of the High Court:
@ winding_down
Thanks, having a look at it now.
The Chair of the Referendum Commission was formerly a donor to Fine Gael so his neutrality is dubious.
Marriage is not just any relationship between human beings. It is a relationship rooted in human nature and thus governed by natural law, also regarding children I believe It is in the child’s best interests that he/she be raised under the influence of his natural father and mother.The unfortunate situation of these children will be the norm for all children of a same-sex “marriage.” A child of a same-sex “marriage” will always be deprived of either his natural mother or father. He/she will necessarily be raised by one party who has no blood relationship with him. He/she will always be deprived of either a mother or a father role model.
Same-sex “marriage” ignores a child’s best interests.
Getting desperate ,smelly cat
Not in the slightest I was merely correcting the record.
@maurice, what about adopted children, you say that children should have a right to their natural mother and father. Your gripe seems be with homosexuals being parents and not with a straight couple adopting, why don’t you just say what you mean. You must are also be aware that this referendum will not stop gay people from being parents or adopting. This referendum is solely about same sex couples getting civilly married, you need to read up in what we are asked to vote on.
@Al Fonso Marriage is not related to procreation can you proove its not related.
By a majority.
Can we actually get rid of posters altogether in this day and age.
Or at least say a maximum of 4 posters per DED from any interested group.
I have never been swayed by a poster.
If we’re getting rid of posters I vote that Cris Mansfield is the first to go.
Living in a small rural village I’ve tried to debate with the local holier than thou types and honestly they are not voting no for any other reason but that homosexuality is a sin in the eyes of the lord. So obviously for them its not a sin to sleep with their sister but it is a sin to sleep with their brother. Also I’ve heard the gem about the majority of gay men being peadophiles and cant be trusted with children. There is no debating with these brainwashed masses and it is important that our children are more tolerant to any one who is not exactly like them. VOTE YES !
I have no doubt that these posters are in the nearest student accomodation! Mystery solved! You’re welcome!
We bring in all these environmental taxes to combat waste etc… surely these posters are irrelevant in this day and age. A heavy environmental tax should be implemented for every single poster erected. This would force a shift to newspaper articles and online media campaigns. How many million trees are used to promote various elections and referendums
I’m gonna take all the posters to your place.
Chris , DED ?
They are street litter..
@Jason
“So obviously for them its not a sin to sleep with their sister but it is a sin to sleep with their brother.”
Sleeping with one’s sibling is incest, which is a sin and, crucially, a crime. Therefore, the idea that devout Catholics don’t regard sleeping with their sister as a crime is absurd.
There shouldn’t even be a debate on this, it’s plain and simple, do you support people having equal rights or not? The no campaign is nothing but masked homophobia and it has no place in 21st century life
Well said! Those posters do turn my stomach though! :-S
There shouldn’t even be a debate on this, it’s simple, do you support a child’s right to a mother and a father?
Vote NO on May 22nd.
And voting No will ensure every child shall have a mother and father how exactly?
Top Cat. Is that all you have to contribute? A non sequitur?
Not much point in having equal rights if you haven’t got a voice.
Top Cat, children have the right to a loving and safe upbringing. Familial relation or gender of guardians are irrelevant.
Lol, and the irony is theres a 4% (1:25) chance that the child in the poster might turn out to be gay…… Just sayin
Not even worth debating then…..that’s some stance alright. Pig ignorant and bombastic, I’ll bet your dizzy with the echoes in your own head as you repeat again and again your old bucket of bile.
@Stuart
And an almost 100% chance that the child was brought up a mother and a father!
Heterosexual couples keep making children gay!
The no campaign mentions “traditional marriage” constantly yet traditional marriage and its sanctity was thrown out the window when divorce was legalised. They mention a child needs a mother and a father, my mother did a fantastic job raising me by herself. Michael D Higgins has already said that gay adoption is on its way to Ireland in the coming years so all the No campaign have to offer are these stupid lies that do nothing but harm their own argument, nobody is forcing the Catholic Church to accept these marriages or even perform them, the only change is that the state will formally recognise the marriage and they will have the same legal rights as a straight married couple.
‘There shouldn’t be debate’ is one of the most stupidly authoritarian statements one can make. I’d like to think that any reasonable person will vote yes, but debate is what’s needed if there is a significant opposition. If only to enlighten. Awful, patronising statements like yours Brian are why I’m increasingly ashamed to call myself a liberal.
Eric, i was saying hypothetically, of course a debate is encouraged but at the end of the day you’re debating against a human rights issue and that disgusts me
The evidence on Twitter from gav Reilly suggests Fianna Fáil members have removed the No posters not Yes Equality
Be wary if TopCat tries to quote articles/laws; seeing as he has been adding his own words to them yesterday to suit his argument.
Troll
I was parodying the pig ignorant authoritarian comment by the OP. I am all for a free and fair debate it is the yes side that is intimidating and harassing the opponent in an attempt to stifle any debate, the destructions of these posters being the prime example.
Will you get me a daddy Top Cat? Mine ran off. It’s my right to have both, right? I don’t care who he is as long as he’s a man. Can you get one for my buddy too? His died. Thanks, appreciate you looking out for me.
Vote yes it’s 2015 not 1900
Masked homophobia? Ah come on Jeez talk about a ignorant view for a start do you realize two of the most outspoken people against gay marriage in Ireland are gay men namely blogger Paddy Manning and writer Keith Mills whom both have been on TV speaking against gay marriage. Or perhaps they are homophobes too?.
Yes, I recall that David. Top Cat deliberately changed the wording on a UN charter to try to further his argument! He’s really taking this ‘the posters can say whatever they want’ thing seriously.
@TK Since when has there been a referendum to abolish divorce and force all single mothers to marry ?
Nothing prevents someone from being a homophobe, not even sexual orientation. Wanna hear about some other raging homophobic US pastor found out taking the services of male prostitutes? Or asking boys for naked pictures?
Also, Paddy Manning and Keith Mills arguments against same sex marriage are the same old tirade of misinformation and non sequiturs. They add nothing of relevance to the debate.
Article 7 & Article 9 of the United Nations Convention on the rights of the Child:
7: “…children have a right to know and as far as possible to be cared for by their parents”
9: “…state parties shall ensure that a child shall not be seperated from his or her parents against their will, except when competent authorities subject to judicial review in accordance with applicable law and procedures that such separation is necessary in the best interest of a child”
Now does Adam & Steve’s emotional urges to parent constitute state designed seperation of Mother & Child as outlined in Article 9?
I want to clarify what i said before more people misinterpret it, when i said there shouldn’t be a debate i meant that there shouldn’t be anyone on the no side, we live in the 21st century and homosexuals should be allowed to live with the same rights as heterosexuals.
Debating is democratic but I feel it’s wrong when its regarding an issue involving human rights.
Although pulling down opposition posters is undemocratic, you can understand why. People see these posters and easily see through the propaganda and lies that are essentially spreading hate and telling gays they shouldn’t be allowed marry because it’ll harm the children even when 100% of gay children are made my a man and a woman
Top Cat. What does this have to do with SSM? Try and stay on topic, please?
Of course there should be a bloody debate about it. Do it openly and the people who vote No – and there will be quite a lot of them – might not like it but they’ll accept that it’s valid. Just as the losing side in elections accept it. How do you think it’s going to go without a debate?
Isn’t it strange how even regular readers of your vitriol have trouble discerning between your parody of arrogant authoritarianism and your regular posts, Topcat?
That’s the one Top Cat; the text you took upon yourself to edit yesterday.
You do realise that gay couples can already adopt kids right!? The referendum has nothing to do with what parents kids have, it’s about equality and giving everyone the right to marry. Whether it’s man/woman, man/man or woman/woman, the child is going to be fine. The no campaign has no valid arguments and to be honest I think anyone that would vote no should be ashamed of themselves for denying people a human right based on sexual orientation.
Never said anything about their debate ideals at all?!?. I was simply making the point that the ‘masked homophobia’ point by Brian is completely absurd,insulting and alarmist as there is gay people against gay marriage (several in the public eye).
Perhaps they are Colin it depends on their reasons for being against it.
I wish more people on here would mask their homophobia, some of the things that get said about lgbt people on here are disgusting. And could cause untold damage to any person young or old who is struggling to accept themselves.
Plenty of women opposed getting the vote back in the day ,it’s called internalised bigotry
@Richard, yeah Tom Cat does realises that the referendum has nothing to do with kids, he however just ignores the truth. He was saying the other day that the gays are going to go and swipe newborn kids from their mothers breasts.
I’m sorry Brian does one not like democracy did mammy not give you a bikkey when you were a child until you stopped screaming
Joanna whatever about the rights of marriage for all but there is no fickin way 2 men will bring up a child the same way as a mother you fool
They might teach their child to punctuate though, howzatme.
Wow Alan immense I bet your in Mensa
you’re
No I’m sure
Vote YES
Up to but excluding the threat of litigation ?
RTE knows how intimidation works , in mysterious ways apparently ,gods work ..litigation
These posters have nothing to do with the MARRIAGE EQUALITY referendum. They are advocating for a no vote for surrogacy which there is no referendum on. Surrogacy is a statutory matter and is to be dealt with by the dail.
Vote yes to EQUALITY for all.
Conor Pope confronts people taking down NO posters in broad daylight, fairplay to him.
Don’t election posters have to relate to the election in order to be put up in the first place. These ones look to be about the Children and Family Relationships Bill, which passed in February.
No they can say whatever they want on the posters such is our freedom I expression
Marriage referendum posters are technically allowed to say anything…
http://jrnl.ie/2060672
Any destruction or interference with them is a criminal offence and a direct affront to our democracy.
Maybe it’s the general public exercising democracy by removing them of their own free accord!!! I will ask again top cat how does granting equal marriage rights to LGBT couples ensure children will be denied loving parents?
Exactly. One of the no posters going around appears to be asking people to vote no for surrogacy. Pretty sure “Do you agree with surrogacy?” is not going to be on the ballot paper.
So I could say “Vote Yes because the No camp a bunch of old farts who want to hate people for being who they are” and you would be okay with that?
Pretty sure it’s irrelevant SK they can say “The Sky is Green an the Grass is blue vote No” and you still shouldn’t destroy or interfere with them in a democracy.
@Top Cat I’m not advocating that people take down any posters relating to the referendum, whether from the Yes or No side.
But the posters about surrogacy have literally nothing to do with the upcoming referendum. They don’t make any reference whatsoever to it actually. So these posters have been put up illegally I would think. I can’t just go putting up posters saying “Bananas? I don’t think we should eat them. Vote No” unless there’s a referendum about eating bananas. It is illegal to put up posters without permission – I think it is likely that permission has been granted for posters relating to the referendum, which these are not.
Ewan you would be perfectly within your rights to make that poster and display it and I would not interfere with your democratic right under any circumstance.
Ewan. Not everyone that will vote no is old, far from it.
Its anti democratic pulling down those posters. People in this country are smart enough to make up their own minds regarding equality.
Except that the ‘no’ posters are not actually focusing on the marriage referendum topic, they are implying that families which don’t have a mammy and a daddy are inferior. Taking down posters which are not relevant to the issue at hand could be argued to be promoting democracy!
As a single parent I could be highly offended by this portrayal. (though actually, I can’t be arsed….never get into a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent…it’ll only end in frustration!)
A family with a mother AND father is surely the ideal? Like, I’ll be voting yes but single parent homes are hardly ideal for the children or society and same sex is simply a bit of an unknown. I’d tend to believe that the two genders even each other out and give a more balanced upbringing. Obviously not in every single situation but overall.
Calling a family without both a mother and father “inferior” is trying to make it an emotive thing, but a child having a mother and father is, in my opinion the ideal for that child. Having two parents of the same sex comes a close in terms of quality of environment (all else being equal).
I’m far more concerned with the prevalence of single parent households where I believe there is evidence that it leads to poorer outcomes for the child.
RED HERRINGS. These are the things used by people who know they cannot win an argument to deflect attention away from the key issues by bringing emotional and irrelevant issues to the fore.
I am horrified with the amount of untruth that the no campaign are distributing that is offensive and hurtful and above all else – inaccurate. A yes vote will not destroy the meaning of family. It will create more families and protect the previously unrecognized families in our society.
Children are not required to make a family. The courts have already established in Murray v Ireland [1985] IR 532, a childless couple were held to be a family within the meaning of Article 41. So why are the no campaign making this all about children?
Focus on the issue – why are you fundamentally opposed to giving a same sex couple the same protection under the constitution as an opposite sex couple? What are you afraid of?
What right have you got to deny anyone a constitutional protection? I have no doubt you would respond fiercely to any person who would attack you or your families rights and tell you that you are worth less than your neighbour. So why – as a no voter – would you be the person attacking and telling gay people that they are worth less than you.
The ‘No’ side’s argument in relation to children is ridiculous and misleading.
Does that give you a right to pull down the side you don’t agree with’s posters?
No, it doesn’t, I don’t condone it at all.
Well it could be argued that the poster is in reference to a bill that wasn’t even put to a vote
Very true David. They dig themselves a hole any time they try to defend their position.
Vote No posters were put up all along the Malahide Road including outside of schools like Mount Temple. aome students promptly
painted a rainbow on the driveway at the gate of the school. Amazing how young people can be far more eloquent and to the point than there supposedly more intellectual and mature elders.
I have to say when we think about homophobic bullying we’d usually consider it something which is mostly confined to schools. If anything has been shown as a result of this debate is that the young people of Ireland are truly an amazing asset to the country. When adults (and when I use that in relation to the bigots arguing against equality for gay people) are making a show of themselves every chance they get the young people of all ages out canvassing and campaigning it’s really brilliant to see.
Ireland is changing, one way or another and the anti-equality bigots are soon to be left far behind.
Was delighted to see the rain today so that will be well and truly washed away.
It’ll be put back tomorrow
What a wonderful response from those students. They are a credit to both their school and their parents. And a great example of our young people having more wit then many grown adults.
I am not voting because its none of my business, all I see from this debate is that all the no side are shouted down and called bigots, some no doubt are exactly that.
How ever the yes side, I.e the liberals, traditionally promoted diverse views and opinions.
To the undecided they are starting to sound like bullies, their way or the highway, conform, conform, conform,
‘The group pointed to an incident in which a Polish-Irish national campaigning for the ‘No’ side had abuse shouted at him while erecting ‘No’ posters.’
Would it be unfair of me to suggest that the NO campaigners can now , in a small way identify with Gay people? In that Gay people have to sadly endure abuse shouted at them by homophobes all too often on the streets of Ireland.
Yes remember how we all were enthralled by Breda’s description of being forced back into a closet ,by coming out ( if you will ) in an attempt to push the rest of us back into a church .
But then again it’s not her first time at the rodeo and amazingly she gets paid to write her column ,so I guess that’s why nobody is surprised or interested when she tries to co opt ,gay men’s and wo,end real life struggles and experiences to further her “ethos “
Now I know this might get a few aul red thumbs BUT I drove from Sligo to our fair capital yesterday and just before Longford I saw what can only be described as a tsunami of no posters all along the road on every single pole, as someone who likes to live and let live, by the time I’d seen the 20th One with complete BS written on it, I was seeing red so I can actually see why some people would pull them Down as most of them are insulting a down right derogatory towards anyone who thinks to be a good parent, it must involve two people of the opposite sex. If that was the case, all children with a mammy and a daddy would be perfect. Well sorry folks but looking a today’s society and indeed history, that’s a crock of sh#t! A good parent is a good parent, whether they are male and female, female and female, male and male or just male or just female!
Sorry there now, I meant to say posters are insulting to those of us who believes it takes more to be a good parent than just been members of the opposite sex. Appologies!!!!
Both the Yes & No camps should respect each others views & opinions however different. I will definitely be voting yes next month but I don’t condone the behaviour of the Yes camp ripping down No posters & trying to guilt trip No voters into voting Yes as it’s not respecting the democracy we have in Ireland.
I agree with the fact that anyone who votes no is simply not living in the 21st century but it doesn’t mean that they should be forced into voting Yes to something they don’t agree on. That isn’t democracy, that’s borderline propaganda!
I do hope the same-sex referendum is passed but I also do hope in the mean time that our right to democracy is respected and not tarnished by lambasting a no voter because of their decision to vote no.
The problem with the No views is they are based purely on denying people like me basic human rights so why should I respect that.
The bill isn’t going to affect their life at all (assuming they aren’t closeted)
It takes a pretty nasty person to actively support this crap
Their views are based on denying you equality, their methods are based on lying to everybody.
They’ve pi55ed off a lot of people doing that and confused many more. That can’t work in their favour.
Ewan it’s not like they are saying you cannot have oxygen (basic human right). Regardless of your own clear beliefs the democratic process has to be respected.
lol – “equality”
Great contribution to the discussion there Paul
Except they think we are second class citizens
Whether it is “equality” is core to the debate, Ewan.
Do you think a married gay man is more equal than a single gay man?
Marriage redefinition is what this is about, because nobody actually established whether there is a right to SSM.
That’s why the debate is so poor.
Too much presumption.
“Do you think a married gay man is more equal than a single gay man?”
Logic not your strong point. After SSM referendum passes, there will still be single gay men. Some will never marry anyone. Yet they will all be more equal compared to all the straight men, in respects of being able to marry the person they love.
Not all families are about children. Some straight couples don’t (and some can’t) have children. We don’t revoke their marriage, do we.
Paul’s not the smartest troll under the bridge, Al.
Paul I’m sure you’re nice but based on what you said you seem a bit dim!
My point Al Fonso, is that the “equality” being sought will only benefit one narrow interest group. So in this debate, other issues relating to inequality in marriage is being completely ignored. A huge elephant in the room is the question of whether, if the referendum passes, all marriages will be equal?
That’s not such a dumb question.
Please stop lying, Top Cat. That never happened.
It’s typical of bigots like you who can’t take being challenged on your backward views that your only response is to lie.
What has my location got to do with anything, Paul? That’s the second time in a very short space of time on comments relating to two very different issues you’ve made reference to my location,
I’m an Irish citizen, with friends and family in Ireland and I’m as entitled to comment on political matters in Ireland as anyone else.
If you weren’t so ignorant of the issues you mouth off on you’d know there are limited circumstances in which Irish people can vote from overseas though postal ballot. Whether or not they apply to me is none of your business.
Can you please put your growing obsession with my location to rest, please.
Emigrants don’t have a vote, Alan.
Another “equality” issue, perhaps?
You’re quite vocal and sometimes abusive about what people say here on a issue where they are entitled to a vote.
So is Mammy keeping a polling card warm for you?
A list of where Paul is wrong:
Nowhere did I say I had a vote.
In some circumstances Irish citizens overseas can vote.
I’ve said here on Journal.ie in the past that I don’t necessarily believe Irish citizens outside Ireland should be entitled to vote.
I’m an Irish citizen, with friends and family in Ireland and I’m as entitled to comment on political matters in Ireland as anyone else.
That’s not as fully as you think it is.
Do the No side forget that the last time we had a policy of ‘right to a mother and father’ women were forcibly imprisoned in catholic slave houses and their children sold to the highest bidder!!
No no, David. Those were OTHER Catholics, these Catholics are NEW.
LOL.
No Al. There are no Catholics involved in this debate AT ALL. Sure Lolek Ltd t/a Iona Institute have nothing to do with this debate and aren’t using a front organisation Mothers and Fathers Matter (or the Helen Lovejoy Institute as it was referred to on Twitter) are a grassroots organisation which is funded very viably though donation.
Right?
There’s plenty of people on the left who think at least one parent (Hint: Not the mother) is disposable
Ok, so taking down those posters is an offence, but printing posters that have absolutely nothing to do with the upcoming referendum is A-OK? Got it.
The No side have some cheek!
They have two cheeks, and they are talking from the hole between them.
Consider that robbed! haha!
This debate brings out the stupid in people. Vote whatever you want but please just shut up about it now. You won’t change anyone’s mind either way ffs.
Maybe the pole changed its mind having seen other poles voting yes…..
No worries…..Iona institute (Lolek Ltd) will just hit up their crazy fundamentalist backers in the US for some more money for new posters. Church has plenty of money!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ye an Yes Equality can hit up Chuck Feeney their filthy rich American backer.
Iona still got its charity status ?
I couldn’t care less if Iona has charity status or not, I am not Iona’s keeper.
Top Cat – GLEN, TENI and MarriagEquality are three groups that benefited from grants from Atlantic Philanthropies from 2004-2013. The funds received were certainly used to promote and support the drive towards equality and thus has brought us to this referendum, and the above organisations acknowledge and are thankful for the financial support they received.
However if you are suggesting that the money from AP was requested and released on a whim then you are VERY mistaken. As someone who knows a member of one of those groups, they all had MOUNTAINS of paperwork and had to submit detailed accounts as prospective projects before one dollar was released. The accounts of all the groups involved are open to scrutiny.
Now compare that legal and accountable funding to the unknown and uncontrolled financial backers of Lolek Ltd and its offshoots and you will see that there can be no comparison of the transparency of the LGBT organisations to the secret and subversive attributed to the Iona Catholic Lobby group.
Is that another lie ?
Gay couples can already adopt as of May 6th. The posters are misleading. Gay couples can have children by IVF and adoption irregardless of the referendum.
Grasping at straws as usual here the ‘No’ campaigners. Not content with confounding the referendum issue with stuff that has sweet f all to do with it, now they want to play the victim card.
After they lose this referendum, they will claim the referendum was illegal or some other s-h-i-t like that.
You keep saying the same things. There’s a lady-doth-protest-too-much air about it. The Yes side are winning so try spreading a positive message instead of your childish goading of the other side
Disgusting anti democratic and authoritarian conduct by the yes side. This behaviour should be roundly criticised and reject by any citizen of a democracy.
You for real the government should be ashamed allowing no posters to be put up! Gay people are human ! They are teachers,firemen, gardai , doctors, nurses they are no different to straight couples! they way gay people in Ireland are been treated is unreal. The no campaigners are a disgrace and should cop on cause this election will be a Yes vote!
Too cat did it ever occur to you that perhaps citizens who are not members of any YES group are removing them as they don’t like the message? I will remove any located in view of my property
I am not a member of the Yes campaign just a citizen
Oh the moron who put one on private property (flat car park) and obstructing the view to the road.
https://twitter.com/TopCatTalks/status/588676170671116288
Hypocrisy much, Top Cat?
@Topcat – a healthy democracy requires an informed and enfranchised electorate. These posters spreading misinformation and lies are anti democratic.
Try getting queer bashed ,smelly cat ,
Then you’ll know what an unfair society IS
Is he Jared whatshisface ?
Hes claiming to be the product of a single parent upbringing but another poster on here has challenged that saying his parents Finbar and Linda brought up the little zealot .
Was on a radio show doing a double act with his mother or sister playing unrelated outraged citizens against the equality mural .
This is hookers for Jesus bathsh#t crazy
Thanks for posting that Ciaran. Just when I thought it wasn’t possible, Top Cat has sunk even lower still. His hypocrisy has no bounds it would seem.
There’s a difference between destroying campaign posters and putting graffiti over graffiti.
Because your opinion and beliefs matter but other peoples don’t is it?
“Disgusting anti democratic and authoritarian conduct by the yes side”.
Yeah, It’s basically a war crime.
Moron.
And now the link I provided doesn’t work:
“@TopCatTalks’s Tweets are protected.
Only confirmed followers have access to @TopCatTalks’s Tweets and complete profile. Click the “Follow” button to send a follow request.”
Come to your senses?
Bit rich considering they’re the ones who instigated having the mural on Dame Street taken down…
Yes because it broke the law I don’t know how it’s so difficult for you to get that into your head. The “mural” was illegal.
Has the mural already been judged illegal by a court, Top Cat? I must be a bit behind on the news.
Petition to keep it just passed 40,000
Top Cat, It is not for you to declare that the mural was “illegal”,
It is not for you to say that removing the No posters is a criminal offence.
You are a moral and dogmatic dictator, not a civil law Judge.
Top cat, you may have an opinion on the matter but, assessing you by reference to your previous posts, I consider your opinions as worthless as your misrepresentation of facts.
Or less than 1% of the population Richard. Lol..
How many against would you say ?
“Cllr Mannix Flynn told TheJournal.ie yesterday:
Stuff like that would fall in breach of planning. It’s a listed building. As far as I know, a lot of complaints came in. They would be forwarded to planning and planning would issue a general warning letter saying it was in breach and requesting removal by a certain date. If that is not removed, a letter of enforcement would be sent out. It’s about due process.”
http://www.thejournal.ie/petition-removal-mural-dublin-same-sex-marriage-2063518-Apr2015/
It was erected in breach of planning laws.
And …
I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t happy to see the No posters dissapear,seeing as their content has almost nothing to do with the actual issues and is instead a scaremongering tactic….
But they shouldn’t be taken down, if just for the fact that they seem to actually hinder the No sides argument more than help it.
Correct .
Speaking as a lone parent, I would not like my daughter to see those posters. In fact any child who has lost a parent might feel a little isolated seeing this message displayed.
This particular poster seems very much against single parents.
Indeed as a child who grew up without a mother from age 3 I find it most offensive….
Posters shouldn’t be allowed to communicate anything more than the date. If someone is so susceptible to the marketing ploy of capaign posters that they would base their decision on them, they don’t deserve the right to vote
The gloves are off and frankly the NO posters are down right offensive.Not just to gay people but to children of single parents , children of divorce ,those who have had a parent die ect.They are also trying to introduce an issue that is in no way related to the referendum and in my view as both an adopted person and as someone who lost my adopted mother at an early age the NO posters are fair game.In fact Id say they are deliberately trying to introduce a completely false message that somehow gays are a danger to children.That is a slanderous accusation in itself.Compared to the lies and dirty tricks being spun by the NO side a few offensive posters being pulled down is nothing.Besides oncevtge referendum is over I can’t imagine the NO side being too quick to remove them themselves.
The bill is about same sex marriage! No about a child having a mother and a father! I want to marry my partner because I don’t want to be in the position to left out if he died, I don’t want to be denied the access to a hospital ward to visit him if he suffer an accident, I want my partner to be my family, my husband! That’s the meaning of this vote. No one is talking bout children!
If you vote No you are truly warped. If you honestly believe two loving people cant raise a child you are not worth my time. To deny a loving couple the chance to live in a society as equals is monstrous.
Come at me bru, lay your ‘No’ logic before me, I need a good laugh
I drove through a town that had 30 of the no posters on a 400meter stretch, I drove through the same town an hour later and saw a young lad in shorts & a football jersey taking them down.
I’d say they are being removed because they are offensive to single parents, to infertile couples & to anyone who intends to vote yes! If I was involved in the yes campaign I would help the no campaign erect these signs because they would only serve to strengthen the yes campaign. They are outrageous
That’s it in one. They are not just offensive to gay people but also a deeply personal attack on kids and adults who have been raised outside a ‘traditional’ family unit as well as being seen as a clear message to single parents that they’re not providing the best environment to raise their kids.
I was harassed by a person campaigning on behalf of M&FM. A woman tried to hand me a flyer and, not wanting to get into a heated debate in the middle of street, kept my head down and said “No thank you.” She grabbed my arm, tried to force her flyer into my bag, told me I was sick and asked if I was a paedophile. Shocked, I said “Excuse me?!” To which she replied “Well you obviously don’t care about the future of our children.” I was so upset.
The victim card being played by the bigot brigade would make you sick.
Would I stop anyone pulling down their awful insulting posters? Would I f**k!
Well it would be better if they had a rule where each side has a set quota of posters to put up on lampposts (something I think should be banned outright to be honest)
I mean there are the hundreds of the same 4 stock photos from the No side plastered on every lamppost on Drumcondra high st for instance .
Then you have to consider that the posters at least from the no-side have bugger all to do with the referendum, obviously saying “We hate gays” isn’t as catchy as “Oh won’t somebody please think of the children”
I’d prefer creative vandalism over pulling down Vote No posters.
I look forward to seeing some examples of this… in the interest of free speech and whatnot, of course.
I’m going to rip down every YES poster I encounter from here on in.
I’m going to spray paint any that can’t be removed.
Someone has to stand up to these fascists.
You’re not going to do anything, Tommy.
You are, like the rest of the trolls on here, a keyboard warrior. If you were caught by a group of teenage lesbians while you were trying to rip down a Yes poster you’d crap your pants.
Fascist,the new clarion call for the bigoted conservative ,you do not have the right to discriminate,using the term by the way in this context is a slap in the face of history and to every gay person singled out and killed by the nazis .
People not sharing your bigotry is not an affront to the democratic system, tearing down a poster is not the same as being queer bashed neither by the way are your views being challenged in any way comparable to the discrimination and abused heaped upon gay people .
Tough boy Tommy!
As Alan said, all mouth, no trousers.
Tommy, all hole and no filling!
Consider THAT robbed.
These posters shouldn’t be up until he first place and Gardai should be investigating how this group can be misrepresenting facts in arguing for a no vote . Most people see through this crowd , leave up the posters shows just how low these individuals will stoop to argue their point . Everyone is entitled to an opinion if that opinion is based on truth and honesty and I respect no voters , however dirty tricks will never win and argument
What does that NO poster in the article have to do with the referendum.
Fear, misinformation, and outright lies. Like the No campaign in general.
They’re recycling the ones left over from the divorce referendum I think.
Only no voters love and care for children and only No voters devote their lives to the love and nurturance of children. That is what the No side imply.
All Yes voters are bad, neglectful and irresponsible who are eager to sell off children to people who are homosexual people and ensure that the little children have neither a mummy nor a daddy.
The No side think that there is a conspiracy to “de-parent” children.
The position of the No side is laughable, risible, irrational and misplaced. The No side is doing a superb job in discrediting its already feeble and febrile notions.
Unless of course they are the children of same sex parents who they want to deny the opportunity of them growing up with married parents.
No side – thinking less of gay people and their children since 400 AD
If the no campaign wasn’t peddling lies and utter tripe, then maybe people would leave the posters alone.
I haven’t seen a decent argument for a no vote yet and it seems the no campaign can’t find one either.
“Instead, they are engaged in a campaign of harassment, intimidation, and criminality.” – No side
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!
So at the moment we don’t have gay marriage. One of the arguments on the NO side seems to be that if we allow gay marriage then these peoples kids (presuming they want kids as not all couples do) will turn out gay. So riddle me this….. since we don’t have gay marriage now, how do we have gay people?? Could it be that whether your parents are gay or not has absolutely no bearing on the issue??
Also….. just because a child may have a biological mother and a father, the mother and father are the ones who ultimately decide if the child will have a mother and father figure in their life by choosing whether to stay together or not. So the whole “a child deserves a mother and a father” argument seems fairly redundant to me.
Personally id love to see every “Vote NO” poster ripped down along with every “Vote YES” poster. People should make their own minds up and not be influenced by any particular group.
Colin
Cough eh em em I don’t think anyone with a brain believes a kid will become gay by living with gay parents cough
However
I do believe people are concerned with fact that the best parentage is a father and mother
I don’t believe people believe that 2 men brining up a kid is the best for the kid
No matter how much that might hurt gay men
I think it’s naive to think people will vote based on the quantity of posters promoting either side I do believe most people are actually intelligent
Would you like a strepsil? :)
I know it sounds ridiculous but this is exactly the argument that was put to me on the street the other day by a no campaigner which made me think that perhaps ignorance and apathy might play a larger role in this issue than I was expecting.
I’m just wondering how people can form an opinion that is a “fact” that the best parentage is a father and mother. From what proven results and on what comparative study is this fact based?
Also being gay is not restricted to the male of the species. Do people have the same inherent problem with 2 women bringing up a daughter?
In regard to the posters, I do have a conflicting opinion. I believe that those on the fence, those who neither care nor are affected directly by the issue unfortunately will be influenced in some way by the posters whether it be No or YES. Its effectively advertising, and advertising does work.
You need a study to prove a mother and father are the best parents for a child ? God help us that is beyond ridiculous.
Enlighten us Tony, what does a mother give that a father can’t and vice versa??
Colin of you view your audience as stupid then it’s hard to take you seriously
Dave seriously is this candid camera
Dave , that question is so utterly, utterly absurd. If that is how you truly feel you need professional help.
There is no-one more intolerant than a liberal. It is disgraceful and utterly thuggish that the ‘Yes’ campaign have engaged in the pulling-down of ‘No’ campaign posters. The people who would do this have zero respect for the formerly sacrosanct traditions of democratic campaigning, such as the courtesy that one side would not dislodge or deface the opponents’ posters.
It is disgusting that somebody would see fit to design posters that are so insulting and hurtful, that that that they drive otherwise-law-abiding people to want to tear them down.
If you say so ..
Another bigot crying because he thinks his bigotry is being restricted, hilarious.
I don’t agree with the no campaign and will be voting yes in the election but I don’t agree with tearing down the oppositions posters. We live in a democracy and each and everyone is entitled to their own opinion (even if they are wrong!!!!).
How anyone can get so incensed about a poster is beyond me , if you are going to vote yes you will irrespective , if you are going to vote no you will irrespective.
The fact that they were taken down at all is beyond stupid , let them stay up and let the murals stay up that’s democracy ,people have the right to an opinion that’s why we are having a referendum.
If we had direct democracy and recall as they have in Switzerland we wouldn’t have half the petty squabbling we listen to every time an issue comes up that we have to vote on or are not allowed to challenge because we can’t initiate a referendum .
As someone who is on the canvassing trail I can confirm that the canvassers and the campaign have made it very clear that all posters must be left untouched. We know that the No side will complain profusely and to be honest they are a great fundraising tool for YesEquality.
The people who are defacing or removing the No posters may support the Yes vote but it is extremely unlikely that they are part of the organised Yes campaign. These posters have incensed and inflamed the anger of ordinary voting members of the public, who have thus acted on their own volition. This act is absolutely not endorsed by YesEquality from the messages we have heard.
At least 16 Yes posters by Sinn Fein were removed in Stepaside yesterday and the act was reported to the Gardai by a local councillor.
Reports from the canvassing trail are telling of verbal and physical abuse of the Yes canvassers – I was called a ‘f-king Q***r; leaflets have been waved in faces and only last night a polite female canvasser was physically intimidated by a No voter (she is 5′ 7″, he was about 6′ 2″). There are loads of other stories but they are not mine to tell, and some of them are very frightening. Even experienced political canvassers of many decades have been shook by the negativity and vitriol exhibited by the No side.
We need to get some humanity back into this referendum, before any physical incident occurs.
Sure Helen ..
Helen. That type of behaviour is unacceptable, no question.
I would however draw your attention, in equal measure to the mocking of people’s religious beliefs from many on the Yes side of this argument.
A look through the various postings can confirm that. Some on the Yes side should practice the love, respect and tolerance they so call for.
I will be voting No in this referendum for the following reason. I have absolutely no issue what so ever with gay partnerships and all the protection of the law. I do not however want to see the reshaping of the conventional family where a child may have two dads or two mums. Sorry but that’s my view on these things. I do not want to see that.
These are my views and I stand by them. I am entitled to them but the Yes side are intolerant of that. It is presented that this is not about children and that is true per say but a by product of this will be two gay men or two gay women having equal rights to adopt a child. They may be loving pRents but that’s the issue.
It’s not about the rights of the adults but it’s about the right of a child to the right to have a father AND a mother.
The right of the child supersedes everybody else’s right.
Tom,
Gay couples can already adopt and will continue to do so regardless of the outcome or this referendum. What this referendum will do will provide additional legal protection for children being raised by same sex parents.
So if child welfare is your concern – and you agree with child welfare experts such as the IPSCC then you should be voting YES.
On the 23rd of May when the yes vote passes I’m taking a “vote no” poster and riding a lad on it
Don’t Conor Pope might confront you on camera
There you go Dave would you ever ever hear a mother say what ryan has just said
I’m sure you’ll make a great “parent” some day Ryan….
I really do hope most folk here are right that the posters have never swayed that many voters I really do. But I have a right to have a problem when the no posters peddle misinformation like gays don’t care about kids and all the straight couples procreate, this is obviously untrue and I’d rather be called a pervert by the minority than have lies told about me in the campaign
Screw em, pull them down
Every poster deserves a lamppost
They all be like why the f**k did I get married in 20 years time!
Or, like they vast majority of heterosexual marriages in Ireland still, there’ll have long, happy lives together.
What does the law say in this manner…?
If it was on my street and I could see it from my house or in front of a business I own and pay rates on and I find it offensive I would absolutely see myself as having the right to pull it down.
And yes if someone in the same position feels the same about a poster supporting the opposite side that’s fine with me. It can go without any posters.
Freedom of expression may be about more than just words
This is getting bitchy
That’s was not strictly my point Tony. I don’t think people should dress opinion as fact. Truth is there is no concrete proof that m&f parent are any better so it shouldn’t be described as fact.
Marref? Really?…are you that lazy?
Restrict poster size to an A4 page and watch them disappear.
have your say