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THE AVERAGE COST of a funeral is €4,062 but costs vary greatly in different parts of the country, according to new research.
New research carried out by Post Insurance has estimated the various costs incurred when families lose a loved one.
It found that the highest average costs were €5,000 in counties Sligo and Clare while the lowest of €3,408 was recorded for Co Wexford.
The highest price quoted to researchers for a standard funeral was €6,310 in Co Tipperary
These costings include paying for funeral directors, removals and a coffin but exclude church offerings and the cost of burial plots.
The survey outlined the vast differences between the cost of plots in different cemeteries, even in the same county.
The highest cost quoted for a double plot in a graveyard was in Deansgrange in Dublin where the price was €32,000. The same sized plot in Shanganagh Cemetery near Shankill was €5,600.
In terms of cremation, the survey found that it was most expensive in Cork at €770, behind Dublin at €682 with the lowest cost in Galway at €527.
Coffins
The cost of coffins varies greatly based on the choice made by a family of course, but the Post Insurance survey estimates average cost based on a “standard coffin”.
The research found that a standard coffin is most affordable in Waterford at €1,177 and most expensive in Kerry and Laois where it cost €2,000.
The costs of coffins in Dublin and Cork was found to be rates of €1,750 and €1,399 respectively.
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Next up: If you want your kids to make their Communion and Confirmation, then send them to Sunday school. This should not be part of the primary school curriculum.
@Ruairi Gagarin: it’s such a waste of valuable school time, particularly in a communion or confirmation year. Even a philosophy, ethics and world religion class would be more useful than teaching a single dogmatic viewpoint.
@Toomasu Sumitsu: I think it would be good for the Catholic Church too. I remember reading an interview by a priest lamenting parents and kids who only show up at mass for Baptisms and Holy Communions etc. If parents really want their kids to make these sacraments, they should put the time in each Sunday.
@Ruairi Gagarin: A prominant bishop suggested that children shouldn’t get confirmation until they are 16 because they have no real understanding of what they are signing up for at 11 or 12 years old.
@Sorcha Ní Shúilleabháin: I’d agree with the Bishop on that point!
@Toomasu Sumitsu: Imagine if religion class was swapped for PE? Two problems solved in one go.
@Change Everything: great idea!
@Change Everything: Imagine if started baptising correctly, Damien from the omen would have zero problems with the subverted vatican’s broken baptism rite in Baphomet. How much does the country spend on ‘mental health’ industry? solved http://ourladyisgod.com/i-Catholic-Baptism-JohnTheHereticalMasonicBaptist.php
@Ruairi Gagarin: Some extremist faiths use Sunday schools.
@Patrick Gormley: so what? Some extremists use education for religious instruction, what is your point?
@Paul Fahey: @Patrick Gormley: Don’t know lads. It’s all a bit black and white to me..
@Peadar117: come again?
@Harry Bookless: the ‘holy’ spirit is baphomet, another name for the devil.represented as the gatorade drink in idiocrasy movie from 2006. The Holy Ghost is God the fathers correct name! !
About time this country moved into the 21st century and leave the church behind
@Colm Connolly: Agreed. If an alien came down to Earth and you explained all of the subjects, maths, English, geography, history, science, PE etc. they’d go “Okay, this all makes sense” and then religion they’d be like ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@A Piece of Chalk: The only aliens are those who are estranged from the basic fact of our planet’s motions as most if not all of astronomy and terrestrial sciences since the time of Newton is treated like a clockwork solar system.
These 17th century clowns bypassed the Sun for the day/night cycle and appealed to stellar circumpolar motion for rotation -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYy0EQBnqHI
It means they literally can’t manage to associate the Sun rising and setting each day with one rotation of the planet.
” It is a fact not generally known that,owing to the difference between solar and sidereal time,the Earth rotates upon its axis once more often than there are days in the year” NASA /Harvard
This is astrophysics or the ability to make things up as you go along but passed off as the ‘laws of physics/motion/gravity/ nature. The followers of this empirical system are in a trance by virtue that it comes through the education system and therefore no amount of effort to undo the damage works.
@Gkell1: I’m honoured to be in the presence of your staggering intellect #conspiracy
@Colm Connolly: about bloody time too, good to see the RC church’s grip being torn away from children’s education
@David Edwards: I wouldn’t engage David – Gkells views are not particularly well thought out or based on anything of merit.
@David Edwards: It is not so much that nobody acts surprised that astrophysics can’t associate one 24 hour day with one rotation and a thousand rotations in a thousand days, it is how people have lost their intuitive intelligence which normally enjoys the appearance of the Sun each day and stars at night as the effect of one rotation.
Newton’s entire approach to astronomical observations is based on celestial sphere rotation (RA/Dec) which in turn is based on a wrong conclusion by Flamsteed -
“… our clocks kept so good a correspondence with the Heavens that I
doubt it not but they would prove the revolutions of the Earth to be
isochronical… ” Flamsteed to Moore , 17th century
It is not about staggering intellects but how low are you prepared to go in order to ignore the common sense of the effects of one rotation including the cycle of your own body which responds to a rotating planet -
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c7/73/27/c773275b03bb71c77a3c6ae024e5ec0c.png
I’ve muted him, he’s lost the run of himself lately.
@Gkell1: Took a look at that, and I have to say without doubt – it’s the greatest load of bovine effulent. You’re a flat earther, admit it. I agree with you when you said “make things up as you go along”, you sure as hell do that.
@A Piece of Chalk: same reaction to the collective works of Shakespeare, Roman, Greek Mythology and lets not even mention works such as Ulysses. All fiction at the end of the day.
@Sean @114: There’s a big difference between literature and indoctrination.
@Fiona Fitzgerald: Is it G Kelleher?? Muted him months ago.. spends all his money on Tin foil you know..
@Rob Cahill: It’s him. He cunningly changed his name from gerald kelleher to gkell1 so the lizard people won’t be able to kidnap him and bring him to their base on the moon……which is made of cheese.
@Gkell1: duh.
Maybe some day I will encounter an adult who wants to navigate through astronomical observations and the roots of timekeeping so students grow out of astrophysical junk not fit for the human mind. Instead the people on this planet are tethered to a worthless fiction that grew out of misusing a clock to model the Earth’s daily and orbital motions.
The problem isn’t religion, it is what the academics propose are ‘facts’ when they are a dishonour to the human race and especially the attempt to bypass the 24 hour system and Lat/long system which maintains the facts of a round and rotating planet -
The Brits having being living with a lie for the past few centuries as they simply can’t mesh the flawed RA/Dec system with the proper Lat/Long system. Much like their politicians want out of the customs union but also don’t want a border, they can believe this so likewise their academics who can conjure up and believe anything to get themselves out of the hole they created.
Religion isn’t a problem although the Catholic Church may be but so also are the doctrines passed down through generations as ‘facts’ but are nonsensical junk. No wonder you guys can balance what is right from what is not in other affairs.
@A Piece of Chalk: you clearly don’t have kids attending RC primary schools. “Indoctrination” went out years ago. I don’t think a priest has ever set foot in my kids’ school and I don’t think they could recite half of the 10 commandments. If this is your notion of indoctrination….
@Sean @114: Teaching kids a set of spiritual principles without proof, or question, requiring them to participate in religious ceremonies and “rights of passage”, recite and learn prayers, study a religious text, all sanctioned and financially supported by the state – what would you call it?
Excellent news. There should be no religion at all in schools.
IS the same going to happen with other religous schools?
@Elvis Polkasalad: no.
@Elvis Polkasalad: Are they oversubscribed?
@Elvis Polkasalad: you’d have to assume setting up a sectarian system on this island would be a bit risky
@Elvis Polkasalad: Only Non-Christian institutions can be bigoted. This is the modern era after all.
@Georgio Zizek: the church of Ireland is allowed to continue its discriminatory enrollment practices. Are they not Christian?
@Elvis Polkasalad: No they are exempt
@Paul Fahey: minority religious schools can keep their admission policies as there are usually no other choices available for miles for those students, there might only be a handful of kids looking for a place in these schools, but they should have the option. If these kids have to go to a Catholic school they have to waste two years while the rest of the class prepare for holy communion and confirmation. Most Protestant schools have high numbers of Catholic, other and no religion pupils, usually outnumbering the Protestant kids. General Christianity is taught in these schools but communion and confirmation classes are done outside school, for all denominations.
The sooner the better. No child should be disadvantaged based on the faith, or lack thereof, of their parent. We need to stop teaching iron age myth as fact also.
@The Risen: The children are disadvantaged by what they are taught in science as inspirational language only really kicks in later in the life with experience. By the time kids go to secondary school they have their intuitive intelligence beaten out of them which is why you have such difficulties balancing decisions which require head and heart.
How many good kids are made to feel deficient because mathematicians have convinced the world they have some insight via equation script denied the wider population but it is all voodoo and bluffing.
@Gkell1: Here’s a ball. Go over to the corner and give it an aul bounce. Good lad.
@The Risen: Your atheist-in-chief Hawkings ended up having a Christian service and a Christian burial in Westminster Abbey no less but that is no surprise.
You are not going to wait around and discuss what exactly is being taught in schools under the umbrella of science so while the Catholic Church and the clerics make an easy target, the academic priests get a free run teaching students even though astrophysics is a joke and always has been.
In your favour, the Catholic Church today doesn’t even recognise the damage it did by jettisoning its astronomical heritage after the Galileo affair even though the Pope at that time had valid objections that can only really be resolved in the 21st century.
@The Risen: mute him, seriously it really aids debate. To be honest, once you have read one of his posts you have read them all, conspiracy theorist of the highest order. Hopefully one day he will fall off the edge of his flat earth.
@Gkell1: I’m sorry Gerald, we don’t have your marbles. Did you try the lost and found?
@Change Everything: LOL!
@Paul Fahey: good advice, will do that now
@Gkell1: Ger with the best intentions I have to say you’re not well, forum like this are not a healthy place to be for you. Please keep engaging with your care providers and it’s best not to invite this kind of stress into your life
@Change Everything: I’d almost unblock to see what he’s saying but I assume it’s the same tin foil shit he always spews.
@Gkell1: Seriously…?? You alone think (and I use the term loosely) that that teaching children science is a disadvantage to them, but you believe inspirational language (whatever the hell that is?) is learned with experience.
Errr… maths is basically logic, I’m sensing and mathematicians don’t have to convince anyone of what is self evident. I have to be honest I’m sensing someone who failed his inter cert maths and has had issues ever since. Do you actually have any qualifications in anything, apart from BS?
@Gkell1: “…mathematicians have convinced the world they have some insight via equation script denied the wider population…”
Uh, because mathematicans do. Who is denying the wider population this information?
@The Risen: Agreed, heard a woman tellin her friend off because her 11 year old son believed in Santa, she said “believing in imaginary man at his age” while she went to church no doubt every Sunday bending on her knees preying to a fairy in the Sky!!! Who sits and watches while thousands f children are raped by his church and workers on earth and hundreds of thousands of children are gassed to death in death camps, while he folds his arms and says “fuk all I can do” some god??
@Philip Mckenna: God = Santa for grown ups.
@Paul Fahey: You kids are easily led, after all, what is the easiest topic to discuss than all the effects of a rotating Earth , the development of clocks for determining longitude, how your body responds to a day/night cycle and all the thousands of other topics. Then we have the 17th century Brit academics who jumped the tracks with an utterly stupid conclusion and set in motion the astrophysical junk along with its ‘scientific method’.
When you can’t associate one 24 hour weekday with one rotation then your mind isn’t working properly but you can thank Newton and his colleagues for that as they built their concepts on really dumb foundations and specifically the equatorial coordinate system which wraps the universe in a rotating ball of stars.
@Gkell1: Paul, challenge his qualifications and he avoids answering you, the reasons are obvious. He believes he alone among 7.6 billion people is right and everyone else is wrong, can offer no qualified proof, we’re just expected to take his word for it. Or he’ll copy and paste… stuff.
@Jed I. Knight: You kids are caught in a Brexit type charade where they arrived at a silly conclusion and can’t back it up thereby condemning you and others dumb enough to follow them into a hopeless mess.
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/ireland/dublin
Between sunrise and sunset the Sun is in view while between sunset and sunrise the stars are in view so one day/night cycle corresponds to one rotation of the planet otherwise known as Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and so on.
It is because our society is so buried in these empirical nightmares like the ‘solar vs sidereal’ fiction and the exotic relativity notion that sprang from the late 17th century dumb conclusion that the real fiction is taught through the classrooms of schools and colleges. It shows a society unable to reason properly even when the history of astronomy and timekeeping is presented to undo the event which caused the damage.
Adults would know why these things are important so draw your own conclusions from that.
@The Risen: Rule does not apply to any minority religion.
@The Risen: The biggest disadvantage in Ireland’s schools is not your faith or no faith but your address and how well off your family is that’s the real issue in Irish classrooms- if your from disadvantage your left to struggle by most
Pure discrimination towards Catholic schools , why hasn’t other denominations been included in this religious ban ?
@AlanH -AFC: might be due to over 90% or primary schools being catholic but thats just a guess
@Ian McNally: should there not be one rule for all though? Just sayin.
@Sean @114: No – because minority religions have only a small number of schools available to them. The vast majority of Irish public schools are however catholic schools meaning many non religious children can be locked out of the public school system.
It makes perfect sense.
@AlanH -AFC: Before you get your religious panties in a twist, the article says “In a statement this morning, Bruton said that oversubscribed primary schools will not be allowed discriminate on the basis of religion.” The law will not discriminate against any particular religion. It will dis-empower all schools to discriminate on the basis of religion.
@AlanH -AFC: Because they are not over-subscribed and passing local children over in favour of children of a given faith.
@Stephen Adam: why should my taxes fund these other schools if they are going to discriminate against my kids. Did you say that this makes perfect sense? I’m sorry but it makes no sense.
@Sorcha Ní Shúilleabháin: actually some do and they get a higher level of finance per child than catholic schools. They should be included in this too and it is inviting litigation for them not to be.
@Sean @114: If the school you’re applying to isn’t oversubscribed your kids will get in regardless
If the school you’re applying to IS oversubscribed than you can’t use your religion as an additional criteria in your favour.
Which religious ethos of the school isn’t what matters.
But that doesn’t suit your narrative, does it!?
@Sean @114: Your taxes should go to fund schools for everyone.
It’s not practical to build schools for each and every faith in each and every borough. That’s why faith should have no part in public schools.
There are very few schools specialising in minority faiths atm – their purpose is solely to cater to those children. It’s perfectly logical that they would prioritise children of those faiths.
The vast majority of public schools however need to cater for EVERYONE. Hence the removal of baptism barrier.
Now when we finally get to a point where the state actually provides education with no faith formation whatsoever and the only religious schools are privately funded – then we’ll be cooking with charcoal.
@Sean @114: currently 90% of tax funded primary schools discriminate against my child so get to the back of the line with your outrage please
@Sean @114: “why should my taxes fund these other schools if they are going to discriminate against my kids.”
Because other peoples taxes including those of us without kids go to fund your kids school. It’s how society works.
@Tricia G: eh no Tricia my “narrative” is simple it’s one fair and equitable rule for all. If the angry atheists want to impose a rule on RC schools only then it is clear who is being discriminated against. The rule must apply to all tax payer funded schools regardless of religious ethos. Surely that is only fair, no?
@Rob Cahill: but that’s the status quo then Rob isn’t it? 78% of our population designate themselves as RC so let’s assume that 78% of tax payers are RC. See where this is going? It needs to be one fair equitable rule for all. Remove religious discrimination from all tax payer funded schools. Simples.
@Ian McNally: yes but 78% of taxpayers are RC. One equitable rule for all, no?
Does that mean I can go to a prvate school or is it ok to descrimate because these schools are for the wealthy even though my taxes pay the teachers
@AlanH -AFC: can’t upset Muslims
They are still letting minority faith schools discriminate against children. Can’t believe that in the 21st century and state funded schools (or anything for that matter) are allowed to get away with this. I guess this is progress even if it is decades too late.
@The Bob: Now only Catholics can be discriminated at against.
@Tom Molloy: No, now Catholics will be in the same boat as the next largest ‘religious’ section of the population – people of no religion.
Personally, I think this rule should have been applied across the board – no schools should get an exemption. But, all the same, the vast majority of children are now in the same boat with regard to accessing the vast majority of school places. As some said above – it’s progress.
@Tom Molloy: actually catholic children will still be in a privileged position as this only applies to oversubscribed schools and still two years will largely be given over for catholic sacraments.
My kids are not baptised but were refused from a local school due to unavailable places, after I wrote a letter to the board appealing the decision. Within a week wrote back and said a place had come available.
If anyone is refused a place they need to investigate it as much as possible and then challenge or report it if the believe it motive was due to discrimination. Could be hard to prove legally I’m not sure.
Here are some interesting facts.Every year in almost every school in Ireland, thousands of children are christened and make their Communion and Confirmation.
This events make a lot of money for clothes and shoe shops, restaurants , hotels and pubs for meals, catering and bouncy castles for home celebrations , taxis and transport
costs ,hairdressers, photographers, cards and gifts. Every cloud has a silver lining. Religious events are very profitable ,did I mention weddings and funerals , huge costly events , the economy does very well out of religion.
@Aine O Connor: that’s relevant to children’s education how ?
@Stephen Adam:
Most parents are happy to have religion taught in schools and welcome children who come from non religious families . It’s called tolerance, not much of it around nowadays.
@Aine O Connor: Defending a dying status quo, enjoy it while you can!
@Aine O Connor: you didn’t answer the question Aine – how is the “business of religion” relevant to the baptism barrier?
And how do you know “most parents”
Are happy to have religion taught? Have you asked them?
And I think you misunderstand the word “tolerance” if you think it means accepting that tax payers money is being used by a private institution to indoctrinate children.
@Aine O Connor: what has that got to do with anything?
@Aine O Connor: did you not read the but where only 51% of marriages are now in a Catholic Church. Other studies will tell you there is a massive growth in secular weddings in Ireland and it will continue to grow.
@Aine O Connor: its a waste of teaching time. Religious education should be available outside school time if its required by parents..
@Aine O Connor: Has anyone suggested communion and confirmation should be done away with? What people are saying is that religion is a private matter and indoctrination is something that should not be part of a State funded education system.
@Aine O Connor: ‘Most parents are happy to have religion taught in schools’
Conduct a survey, did you?
@A Piece of Chalk:
I would be far more worried about the use of smartphones and what they are doing to children than the short time that is spent on religion in schools.
@Aine O Connor: Which religion Aine? All religions. If most of our schools spent several hours a week on Buddhism or Islam would you be quite so happy with it?
@The Risen:
Have you heard of a mass protests then by parents and children been taken out of schools because religion is taught in them. My Grandchildren attend a brilliant Catholic Primary School with great teachers , they love school and preparation for Communion and Confirmation is welcomed by parents . It’s a huge event for families and on these occasions the churches are overflowing . Catholics are taxpayers too.
@Aine O Connor: Short time? 2.5 hrs a week is devoted to religious education but classes preparing for communion and confirmation spend an inordinate amount of time practicing at the expense of the other subjects on the curriculum. This puts huge pressure on teachers to catch up on missed lessons and is very difficult for children, particularly those with special needs, who may be struggling with core subjects or find it difficult to cope with the disruption during sacramental preparation.
@Stephen Adam:
If this was a Muslim Country that’s what people would want but it isn’t.
@Aine O Connor: Most parents are happy to have religion taught in schools because they can’t be bothered doing it themselves. The state should not finance and facilitate the indoctrination of children into religion, and teachers should not have to accept it as part of their employment terms.
@Sorcha Ní Shúilleabháin:
Catholics are taxpayers too and in the past it was the church who established the education system in this country because the state could not. Generations of people owe their education to religious orders who did most of the work for free. Eaten bread is soon forgotten .
@Paul Fahey: Over 67% of couples have religious marriage ceremonies.
http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/mcp/marriagesandcivilpartnerships2016/
@Aine O Connor: “Most parents are happy to have religion taught in schools”
Please show us the nationwide survey you did to come to this conclusion.
@Aine O Connor: Times have changed massively Aine, but the school system hasn’t. And it wasn’t all a one way street you know, the church got hold of young impressionable minds which guaranteed a dedicated following, influence at high levels of the state and a huge income stream for years.
@Aine O Connor: bad news. it’s a secular country Aine.
@Paul
I have been to secular weddings and they were lovely. After all it is the couple who are marrying each other and they can choose a Church, a Hotel, the top of a mountain, the important thing is their love for each other and the vows that they take.
@Stephen Adam:
Not according to the last census.
@Aine O Connor: I would some of the census figures with a pinch of salt Aine. For example a lot of people still tick the catholic box due to their upbringing, they are culturally catholic. Many really should be ticking the no religion box if they are being honest with themselves, I did for the first time at the last census. A survey of young people a few years ago who said they believed in god was just 37% – http://www.thejournal.ie/students-religion-ireland-1035328-Aug2013/
@Aine O Connor: we’ll share the same outlook for children in education then, because it should not matter what religion their parents believe in.
@Jonathan: the article states that marriage statistics for 2017 show 51% of marriages were a catholic ceremony.
@Aine O Connor: Pffft – you’re not living in the real world Aine.
@Aine O Connor: Aside from the few big days out religion plays little or no role in the daily lives of most people and the number of people marrying into the Church is rapidly declining. People tick the Catholic box on the census for cultural and historical reasons rather than as a reflection if any strong faith. The Church is haemorrhaging followers and our education system should reflect this secularisation of Irish society. You’d quickly see how strong parents faith is if they had to prepare children for sacraments themselves or forgo the Sunday lie in to take their kids to faith formation classes. You seem to be holding on to an Ireland that is dead and gone and you’re prepared to ignore the facts to do so.
@Aine O Connor: but still evidence of the mass delusion of faith. All religious expression is part of human development but it, like all stages of development will cease to be needed as we move on the the next stage. We are living in that transitional stage.
@Aine O Connor: the teachers might in some cases have worked for very little, but the orders who employed them were paid in full by the state. The notion that religious orders provided education at no cost to the state is a myth. In fact, they spotted an opportunity to fill a gap in an emerging state and to control the minds of an entire population by ‘faith formation’, or what is more correctly termed ‘indoctrination’. Just to .make sure that this system was never challenged, they also provided education in elite schools for the children of the rich, in order to control the people who would be in charge.
It was a stroke of genius by McQuaid and his cohorts, but it’s time is coming to an end.
@The Risen: she asked the other Marys at the rosary meeting.
@Aine O Connor: Parents don’t know what they are doing half time. I had to listen in religion class to how we should look at the sun at miracle sites, go to Hell if we sin sexually, and even the very idea of Hell is dangerous for a child. The child is encouraged to Bible read but the Book spends ages on commanding abuse and violence and hate and very little on love. The Church uses crafty selective readings in chapel to hide the truth about this evil book.
@Stephen Adam: Our money goes to indoctrinate children full stop. All education is indoctrination.
@Ron O’Keefe: An interesting view of it. Am I to take it then that you’re against all education?
My particular problem is with religious indoctrination paid for by the tax payer, and with the State acquiescing.
@Stephen Adam: I am not against all education. I was responding to your comment about our tax money going to state sanctioned religious indoctrination of children in our schools. I am not thrilled about my taxes supporting any kind of religious indoctrination. But let’s face it, all education is indoctrination. It is just another one of those necessary evils.
@Ron O’Keefe: All education is indoctrination? I don’t subscribe to that.
Mathematical principles, sciences – these are provable facts. No based on blind faith.
Poetry, music, literature – these things help us analyse and understand which develops the ability to assess and question what we’re presented with rather than accepting on blind faith.
Languages help us converse with other nations and cultures so that we might be exposed to new ideas.
Indoctrination is requiring people to accept beliefs without question. Proper education enhances the very notion of questioning everything.
So no – can’t say all education is indoctrination.
@Stephen Adam: I can say it, and I just did. There are absolutes, but education is molded by the ones doing the educating. Indoctrination in the education system occurs covertly by virtue of it being done by human beings who bring their own baggage into the classroom. It can’t be helped.
It occurs overtly because governments have agendas for each generation being educated. This isn’t that hard of a concept to grasp.
@Ron O’Keefe: uhuh. I’d invite you to read the definition of “indoctrination”. Then ask yourself how much you are required to “accept on faith” in modern education.
@Stephen Adam: Yeah, whatever you say. Feel better now?
So if a child from a minority faith can still access a school of their choice and faith, will a school be built just for them or will they have to travel to it. Seems yet again the majority is ignored to accommodate the minority.
Saw this happen in uk, where minorities became the majority and then enforced their views/ dress code/ segregation on all others , And it was allowed because it was politically correct .
@Brian Smith: why would a school be built jobs at for them?? Seems like you’re missing the point.
Every child in Ireland is entitled to an education from the state. In an increasingly diverse and secular Ireland it is not possible (or desirable) to have faith formation schools for every single religion. The only sensible option is to remove religion or faith formation as an element of the core curriculum
.
@Stephen Adam: 99% of the schools in Ireland are religious. Most likely all of them are provided with some sort of state funding but the flip side is all of them are providing education for the state because the state cannot provide it independently.
If any parent does not want their children to be taught about religion then simply inform the school and the school will provide an alternative for the student while the class is being taught.
@Stephen Adam: the point being it states you have the right to travel to a faith school if you want, the same way you have the right to travel to a non faith school. It’s your choice, don’t enforce your beliefs or lack of them just because the school on your doorstep doesn’t suit your beliefs or views.
@Jonathan: and you think that’s acceptable? That the state refuses to educate its own citizens and relies on a private institution? Personally I find that totally abhorrent and a gross dereliction of duty.
As for providing alternatives many children just sit at the back of their class while religion is going on or simply put in another room due to a lack of resources. For the most part they don’t receive any actual beneficial education during these times.
That’s before we even consider the effect on children of being singled out from their class mates during religion class and ceremonies like confirmation.
It’s totally indefensible that the state sponsors this sort of indoctrination and segregation in its classrooms.
@Brian Smith: ridiculous Brian. What happens to the poor child if there is no local educate together or secular school? What’s your answer then? The child does without education??
For all the catholics banging on about “tolerance” and “acceptance” they’re remarkably unwilling to accept that children of other faiths need equal access to education.
I guess it really demonstrates how deep their principles of love and acceptance actually go.
@Stephen Adam: I think you missed the point of choice. You can still travel to other faith schools if you want so what’s the difference for those of no faith? Apart from the fact the school on your doorstep doesn’t match or suit your views. So let’s have a go at the majority who are ok with this to accommodate a minority who don’t want to travel outside their neighbourhood
@Brian Smith: “Saw this happen in uk”
You mean you read about it on right wing propaganda sites and as it lined up with your beliefs you believed it.
@Jonathan: You make it sound like the church does it for nothing.. The state is paying anyway so why not run them without the superstitious nonsense??.. It’s 2018 FFS.
@Brian Smith: Why should a child have to travel for an education? How far is acceptable? How do they get there? How do parents get to work if the only school their child can attend is a long way away?
You talk about the “majority”. Very telling. No interest in assisting children outside the majority.
Well I’m not interested in the majority. I’m interested in every child. Literally every single child. Take away faith formation and children of every single faith can have a local school. Public school = no faith. Everyone’s a winner.
It really is staggering in this day and age that anyone thinks it’s acceptable to include faith formation in schools.
@Stephen Adam:
“Every child in Ireland is entitled to an education from the state.” – This is not true Adam. Every parent in Ireland is entitled to educate their own children at home, but most parents choose to send their children to a school. The school can be either private or state funded.
Article 42 of the Constitution of Ireland:
“1: The State acknowledges that the primary and natural educator of the child is the Family and guarantees to respect the inalienable right and duty of parents to provide, according to their means, for the religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education of their children.
2: Parents shall be free to provide this education in their homes or in private schools or in schools recognised or established by the State.
3.1°:The State shall not oblige parents in violation of their conscience and lawful preference to send their children to schools established by the State, or to any particular type of school designated by the State.
3.2°:The State shall, however, as guardian of the common good, require in view of actual conditions that the children receive a certain minimum education, moral, intellectual and social.
4:The State shall provide for free primary education and shall endeavour to supplement and give reasonable aid to private and corporate educational initiative, and, when the public good requires it, provide other educational facilities or institutions with due regard, however, for the rights of parents, especially in the matter of religious and moral formation.”
@Gerard McDermott: The State shall provide for free primary education Gerard.
Moreover, beyond the constitution, do you not believe the state has a responsibility to provide education for all of the nations children?
It’s astonishing that in this day and age someone would actually debate the states duty to provide education.
@Stephen Adam: Your original claim was that “Every child in Ireland is entitled to an education from the state”. They are not.
Absolutely, every child in Ireland is entitled to an education. However, it is the choice of the parent, not the state, what way that education will be delivered, eg. home schooling, private school, boarding school, public school.
What the state guarantees, is that they will provide a free education for children whose parents don’t want to home school, or send children to boarding school or private school.
@Gerard McDermott: every child is entitled to education from the state. You just said it yourself. The parent can choose which option they want but every child is entitled to education from the state.
Let’s put it is this way – if I’m wrong Gerrard, which you claim, which children are not entitled to education from the state?
@Stephen Adam:
“every child is entitled to education from the state. You just said it yourself.” – You are wrong because that is not what I said.
I said “Absolutely, every child in Ireland is entitled to an education. However, it is the choice of the parent, not the state, what way that education will be delivered, eg. home schooling, private school, boarding school, public school.”
Big difference. It really harms your argument when you take things that were written and corrupt them and twist them for your own argument and agenda, which you have clearly done.
@Gerard McDermott: Gerard you literally just quoted me as saying “every child is entitled to an education from the state” then said I was wrong. Your very next line was “Absolutely every child is entitled to an education”.
It’s right there in black and white Gerard. Two posts up.
Then you started talking about the choice of the parent. I didn’t offer any view on the choice of the parent as to how to educate their kids – not sure what relevance that has to the issue.
@Rob Cahill: “You mean you read about it on right wing propaganda sites and as it lined up with your beliefs you believed it.”
Actually it has happened in some places the UK. In Luton, for example, there are schools which have a Muslim majority student population and even staff. The demographics have shifted so much that some of these schools have imposed Islamic beliefs and customs despite the school not being an Islamic school. It’s been reported by the mainstream British media. However, I guess it’s more convenient to label it all as “right-wing propaganda” because it challenges your politically correct views.
@Stephen Adam:
What you said: “every child is entitled to an education from the state”.
What I said: “Absolutely every child is entitled to an education”.
If you can’t see the difference, then it would seem that at least one education was wasted.
“Then you started talking about the choice of the parent. I didn’t offer any view on the choice of the parent as to how to educate their kids – not sure what relevance that has to the issue.” A parent is the primary educator of their children, not the state. That is the relevance.
Thank god
@Maurice Bourke: praise be to jebus
Richard Bruton is a thundering disgrace to quote one of his former party colleagues. There is no logic nor reason to this. The primary education system has been based on local Church involvement since it was introduced and this country has benefitted from the ethos instilled in the children from the age of 5. This applies whatever religion they are. As an employer these children are the employees of the future and teaching them respect and tolerance and love is a good thing. If it is a Catholic school then Catholics first. If it is Islamic school them Islamic children first.
@: If it’s a public school funded by the tax payer – no religion of any kind thanks.
If it’s a private school funded by a private religious organisation without tax payer money – it can do what it likes.
The Catholic cult grabbed the opportunity to indoctrinate with both of its greedy hands once Independence was secured. Before that we had a National School system since the 1850′s which was multi-denominational and didn’t discriminate on grounds of faith. The RCC poisoned many young minds with their virus and beatings for the century that followed independence.
@: nonsense. People are good because they are good people. Not because of some outdated drivel.
If people actually paid attention to the teachings of the Catholic Church and had not moved on over the years then women would be second class citizens, contraception would still be illegal, we wouldn’t be able to buy alcohol on Good Friday, it would be fine to beat your children to punish them and a host of other things.
Catholic faith also teaches you that if you are a shitty person your whole life, as long as you’re sorry and repent god will still forgive you and let you into Club Heaven. That’s a pretty horrible approach to life.
@: “this country has benefitted from the ethos instilled in the children from the age of 5″
I have not disagreed more strongly with a statement in quite some time. Also I can think of many words to describe the teachings of the Catholic church and schools but “tolerance” would not appear anywhere on that list.
@: you may want to read up on the history of primary education in Ireland, because you are wrong on your main point and it subsequently dismisses your entire post. Ignorance is bliss it seems, especially in your catholic education utopia.
@: no religion should be taught in schools but thanks to the altar rail biter, DeValera and his despicable buddy McQuaid Irish children were brainwashed for generations. Nice to see these changes.
@A Piece of Chalk: totally agree with you, it was mass brainwashing
@: Do you need to be of a particular faith to learn respect, tolerance and love?
@Stephen Adam: I’m a member of the public who pays taxes and I think this is wrong, am I not allowed an opinion . These days obviously not if it doesn’t follow liberal left wing politically correct bullshit . So the majority of us are wrong and you are right????
@Noel Tate: Too right. And I remember several parents taking their children out of particular schools who saw nothing wrong with celibate drunken sadists, ritually beating the children. There were plenty of religious fanatics in the past who weren’t fit to be caring for children. Sometimes parents have had enough of this closeted nonsense and want their children to be happy and have the chance to learn. They had to endure it themselves and to their great credit, they didn’t stand for it being repeated in the next generation.
@Brian Smith: yes Brian – you’re wrong. And so is anyone who believes in that frankly horrible philosophy. You believe in segregating children in the classroom and state sponsored religious indoctrination.
What else could that possibly be except backwards?
You actually want the nations schools to prioritise children of a particularly faith and you don’t give a damn about the kids who aren’t part of that? You have actually argued that they if they don’t like it they can travel to some other school far away?
As I said – so much for Catholic “tolerance” and “acceptance”.
Thankfully however you’ve lost this one. Tiny step in the right direction.
@Stephen Adam:
“yes Brian – you’re wrong……..As I said – so much for Catholic “tolerance” and “acceptance”. Thankfully however you’ve lost this one. Tiny step in the right dire”
Stephen, this is truly a great way to show tolerance and acceptance. You decided that Brian was wrong, as he disagreed with you. Clearly, in your opinion, your opinion is more important than all other opinions.
Brian is as entitled to his opinion as you are. Accept Brian’s right to have a different opinion to you.
@Gerard McDermott: I never said he’s not entitled to it Gerard. Just as your entitled to misinterpret the constitution.
I don’t however have to acknowledge it as valid. Nor do I have to acknowledge the validity of someone who believes that that the Holocaust didn’t happen or that Westeros is a real place.
Some opinions are valid. Some are not. That children of different faiths or none should have to travel long distances to get to school so the Catholic “Majority” can have state sponsored faith formation is discriminatory, unfair, intolerant and frankly not a viewpoint I have any respect or time for.
But by all means – have that opinion. Don’t expect me to support you though.
@Stephen Adam: You are the one that claimed he was wrong, twice, in the one post. He disagreed with you. It doesn’t mean he is wrong. Also, you don’t get to decided who is and isn’t wrong. Thankfully, you don’t have that power. I never said you had to acknowledge his opinion as valid, you have that choice. In much the same way, you have a choice to marry or not, a choice to have children or not, a choice to vaccinate your children or not. A choice to bring them up with a religion or not. You have a choice how, and where, to educate your children too.
@Gerard McDermott: Unfortunately in this country there’s very limited choice to bring your children up out of the confines of religion as over 90% of the schools are run by the Catholic Church. A disgraceful state of affairs.
@Stephen Adam: 100% of parents have the right to home school their children.
@Gerard McDermott: and what has that got to do with anything?
Gerard I think you need to compare the definitions of the words “entitled to” and “obligated to”.
@Stephen Adam:
Children are ENTITLED to an education.
The state is NOT OBLIGATED to provide that education.
The parent is obligated to provide an education for their children. They can chose home schooling, or private schooling, or state funded school. If they chose state funded school then, and only then, will the state provide an education for the child.
In fairness, we enrolled our non baptised child into a religious school and got in for the coming September. Not sure if the school was aware this was coming in or not.
@⚡ Seánie ⚡: It’s not an issue for the vast majority of schools. It’s a problem where the school is oversubscribed. This is a welcome development and long overdue.
@⚡ Seánie ⚡: Just curious Seanie, were you asked by the school if he was baptised?
@Reg: …and therefore these oversubscribed schools will have to find another criterion to limit their numbers. This is not at all addressing the real problem.
@Thunder Snowman: Yes. The form had a section for faith, and to be signed by local whatever tickles your fancy. All marked N/A and accepted.
@Condorcanqui: yes, but in the same way they cannot enroll on hair color, skin color, eye colour, height, parents politics, parents earnings they will not be able to on the supposed religion of the parents.
@Condorcanqui: Yes but their are other measures happening to address the problem of over subscribed schools, a new school building program was announced recently. Access to your local state financed school should not be determined by your religion or lack of.
The sausage rolls and all pork products will be next to be banned from schools as it will offend Muslim students. Already happening in U.K. where pandering to minotities and attacking the majority is the way of the liberal groups these days
“Education Minister Richard Bruton is addressing the issue of priority for Irish-speaking children in Irish-medium schools in one of three amendments to the Education (Admission to Schools) Bill.”
Prioity for good little Irish speakers in state funded schools but non for Catholics in Catholic schools.
@Sam Alexander: I think you’re missing the point Sam.
@Stephen Adam:
What point am I missing. Irish speaking elitism and Republicanism is a religion to many.
Catholicism is as more part of our culture as the Irish languaage
@Sam Alexander: over 95% of our schools are Catholic denomination – if we allow only Catholics the increasing number of children of different faiths and none will struggle to get a local school place.
Irish schools on the other hand are relatively niche. They serve a specific purpose of furthering the Irish language rather than simply education generally. It’s not entirely irrational to suggest that an interest or aptitude for the language be a pre-requisite.
@Stephen Adam:
Irish schools for children whose parents who think Irish language is a must and Catholic schools for Catholics.
@Sam Alexander: No problem with Catholic schools for Catholics so long as they don’t get any state funding. Let them fund them themselves – or charge high tuition to students.
Public school is for everyone. So no religion.
Does the same go for Church of Ireland schools?
@Patrico Floodaldinio: no. But if you know any examples of state funded COI schools discriminating against non COI families and children, you should report it to your local TDs. That way it might eventually be included in the law the way state funded catholic schools have.
Please sign and share the petition to end the teaching of religious faith formation during school hours: tinyurl.com/ReligionPetition
@Paddy Monahan: doh!! https://tinyurl.com/ReligionPetition
Entry to the local school should give first priority to the children who live in the catchment area of the school. If the school is oversubscribed then it’s obvious that there are not enough school places. Plenty of places in rural schools , the Problem is mainly in Dublin.
@Aine O Connor: There are enough school places. All children get a school place in the end. Some schools, because of their popularity (and in Dublin that can be simply a case of being located on several convenient bus routes) will always be oversubscribed. Parents will always want to send their child to the perceived ‘best’ school in an area. Maybe it has the best facilities, the best location, a good academic reputation. The (professed) religion of a child’s parents shouldn’t come into it when children are applying for places in that school.
Minority religions exempt from new regulations. Where us the equality there?
Fine Gael govt pandering to minorities- as usual – be they atheists, minority religions, LGBT… take your pick.
A swipe at catholism at every opportunity.
@Pat Bradford: This has been explained repeatedly in the comments. Have a read back, you may learn something
@Pat Bradford: A swipe at Catholics? No. A swipe at Catholicism? No.
A swipe at the controlling influence of catholic teaching in this country? Yes. And lots more of the same thanks.
@Pat Bradford: how are they pandering to the atheists? How many totally non religious schools are there in Ireland?
Great news. Now they can continue to discriminate on the basis of wealth, home address, sporting ability and country of origin.
@Sean @114: 4 year olds don’t have sporting ability.
A lack of school places is the problem and not religion
@eastsmer: yes, but the problem is being made worse for no religious families because they are being discriminated against by state funded schools.
No one is saying this is the answer to a shortage of schools, but it is a massive step in the right direction.
State funded schools should not teach any faith. If parents want their children raised Catholic, Sunday schools are the answer.
@eastsmer: The same old line. How many children do you know of who are not in school because they couldn’t get a place. This is about equality of opportunity when it comes to accessing the places that are available.
Are the Islamic schools included in this?
@Phil Hegarty: they have bigger fish to fry at the moment
Religion cannot be used to either “Include or Exclude” in our schools ! No Religious labels , NO labels . Move out of the cave Ireland .
Great news about time were moving forward
Unfortunately people will still baptise and the rest for the day out. It really has nothing to do with the Church anymore.. Although I can see that bit disappearing over the coming years. 51% of marriages is pretty high.. But how many of them are to keep the peace or just to have a church setting for photos?? Probably most going by the ones I have attended.
@Rob Cahill: Well, maybe so, but I bet there will be a big drop off. Many baptisms are just ‘baptisms of convenience’ to be sure of getting a school place. It will be very interesting to see how this pans out in terms of baptism numbers.
95 per cent of Catholic schools take every child who enrols. The issue here is over subscribed schools and not a discrimination against non-Catholic or non denominational children as the media likes to portray. Many Catholic schools in Dublin and surrounding areas are extremely diverse. In fact only 1.2 percent of enrolments in greater Dublin were refused due to the baptism barrier in 2017.
@Roisin Cronin: well – now that’ll be zero percent.
@Stephen Adam: well they’ll be discriminated against on some other grounds then. If the places aren’t there then they’re just not there.
@Roisin Cronin: Right. And how will they do it next time? Catchment area?
I’ll try again!! https://tinyurl.com/ReligionPetition
@Matt Bateman: really? And what about excluding children from their classmates on an ongoing basis? You don’t think that will have an effect?
And what if the resources aren’t there to actually teach the child the “few extra sums” ? Who corrects them and when?
Unbelievable the knots people will tie themselves in to ensure religious indoctrination In a public school.
@Matt Bateman: Total BS. First of all there aren’t plenty of educate together schools around. The vast majority of schools are catholic. Over 90%.
Secondly I do think that 40 minutes a day separating the kids followed by all the time preparing for communion and confirmation is hard on the isolated kids.
Thirdly – people enrol their kids because they have NO CHOICE.
The difference with dyslexic kids is that they’re actually getting taught in their other classes – the kids separated for religious purposes are mostly not. They’re doing sums or whatever at the back of a class.
The catholic contortionists are really at it hard today.
@Matt Bateman: There are over 3000 schools under religious patronage in the Republic. There are only around 80 Educate togethers, Some counties dn’t even have one yet. Your point is moot.
@Matt Bateman: utter bilge. The state has to cater for everyone. Everyone. Not the majority.
And there are resources to do it. By removing the baptism barrier and religious faith indoctrination in public schools. Simple.
Funny how what you see as “Catholic bashing” is actually people objecting to the state not providing schools for every child.
@Matt Bateman: this sums up my views on segregating children within the classroom on the basis of religion: https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/bruton-must-legislate-for-religion-classes-outside-school-hours-1.3457232?mode=amp
@Matt Bateman: your ignorance in this matter is astounding. Your initial assertion was wrong and so were all those which followed. You cannot give your child other work if they are opted out of religion, because this is said to give them an unfair advantage over the children who are doing religion, yes really. Therefore, there is an acknowledgement that the children doing religion would be at a disadvantage, so why not remove it from class time.
What actually happens, and it is by design, is your child has to sit in their seat colouring in whilst they can hear all the religious instruction taking place. They are not removed to another class, because they want them to be indoctrinated by osmosis.
@Matt Bateman: you literally said in your last post that people on this site were bashing Catholics.
Secondly religion as an option I don’t have a problem with as long as
A) it’s not mandatory
B) it is not faith formation and teaches about all religions equally.
The state should not be funding the forced teachings of a specific religion. You’d be singing a different tune if it were Scientology.
@Matt Bateman: eh no we haven’t established that Matt. And the census result is irrelevant. The state has to be the state for everyone – not the majority.
@Matt Bateman: Neither. As I’ve said the state is the state for everyone. Every child must be provided for. Not just the majority.
And if you think sending a child to the back of the class to do sums on their own or colour while their class mates get state sponsored faith formation and prepare for communion is appropriate and fair to those kids then you’re just not being rational or objective and prioritising your own personal ideals at the expense of others. Catholic beliefs eh?
@Stephen Adam: True the state has to be for everybody. Religion is not manditory in school so you have no argument. If the schools were forcing it I would agree with you but they are not. If the state wants to be secular they need to stop funding all the Catholic schools altogether which would be stupid as they cannot provide an alternative.
The schools should put religion as the last subject of the day, the parents can decide to let kids finish early or stay for religion class. Everyone is a winner then.
@Jonathan: I complete agree – defund every school that isn’t secular. Simply could not agree more. As that isn’t practical though a more responsible course of action is to remove religious faith formation as part of the curriculum. It can either be done at weekends or privately. It’s more appropriate to the home in any event.
Matt Bateman: as I said Matt – I regard isolating kids that don’t want to do religion by segregating them just an underhand method of forcing kids and parents into it. It isn’t fair to the kids. You think sitting at the back of a class colouring is all fine and dandy – you seem to have little grasp of how kids actually respond to that kind of thing though.
The state has grossly neglected its duty by failing to provide secular education.
@Matt Bateman: in effect yes it is Matt.
And anyone who accepts that has very little regard for education for all.
@Matt Bateman: Sigh. It’s simple Matt – you ever hear of “constructive dismissal”? Simple concept – your boss engineers a situation whereby you’re forced to quit. They basically Make it so unpleasant for you that you have no other option but to quit. The law sees this as you being fired effectively.
Do religion or accept a damaging alternative. I call that mandatory yes. And I have a far more nuanced view of it than you do clearly.
What I don’t get is why anyone strives to justify religious faith formation in public schools in this day and age.
Regardless it seems like it’s slipping away – not fast enough to be sure but certainly on the way. A generation from now educate together will be the norm. Not before time.
@Matt Bateman: very ignorant comment, there are not plenty of ET schools around, many people have to send their kids to Catholic schools, because it’s so hard to get into any other kind if school. Also most schools say they don’t have the resources to supervise children who don’t want to take part in the religion classes, so they are left sitting in the back of classrooms, especially in communion and confirmation years. I believe people should have the right to send their child to a religious run school if they want, but there should be enough other options available
One baby step to a secular education system
Another nail in the coffin for a dying cult
@Sean O Sullivan: and Islam, another cult is growing aggressively, maybe you would prefer that.
I wonder can you send a child to all religious scented school’s and ask them not to include religion in the correcilem
@FlopFlipU: Or spelling maybe??
“It is unfair that a local child of no religion is passed over in favour of a child of religion”
Will that be true for all schools, not just Catholic schools?
I’ve no idea how my child will learn about sexual education if this rule is enforced…
Ah good news, a year too late for my child though. Now we will probably have to baptise any other kids or they will feel different.
@David Lacey: Not a good enough excuse, Just do a day out for them.. they hate the church bit anyway.
But when there’s a problem with a teacher , he/she is not a public employee and the state washes their hands very fast
It’s so easy to be hateful and mock the beliefs of Catholics when you live in this part of the world. I would love to round you all up and send you to a Muslim country. Would you call Allah a sky fairy to their faces? how about giving them a lecture on feminism or LBGT. Brown undies all round more like.
have your say