Gardaí question 38 people suspected of purchasing sexual services

@Michael Geraghty Bodycoach: That’s exactly it Michael! I mean even if the numbers where low, how can the prove anything if they wanted to prosecute? You would literally need to stake out a brothel or something and catch Men coming out of the place! The ultimate irony is, it’s the gangs who are profiting from this, and that contributes to real and serious crime that the Gardai actually do have to deal with.

@Michael Geraghty Bodycoach: there is an election around the corner after all and this would go down well with the grey vote and my Bible bashing parents.

@IrishFreeSpeechParty: yup, it’s just a media sideshow without really trying to fix the issue. It’s easy just to say “criminalise it” to keep the bible bashers happy. How about helping these women who choose to do it and protect the potentially trafficked women by licensing it, regulating it and taxing it, everyone can be safe and happy and drive the criminals away.

@IrishFreeSpeechParty: I would assume the continual harping on ‘trafficked persons’ is mainly propaganda aimed at supporting the current legislative model.

@IrishFreeSpeechParty: a lot of these ladies have been trafficked from Eastern Europe and have family at home who may be under threat from the criminal gangs running them in Ireland. The women cannot come forward to Irish authorities as it’s not what happens here that they’re worried about but what’s at home. If you legalize it that’s grand but these slaves will still be here to accommodate all the different “tastes” in clients. They are not shouting rape cos they cannot and will be used and abused until they are of no use anymore. Maybe in your world it’s all consensual and lovely but really it’s mainly people who are down on their luck being exploited by men with money and a sense of privilege most prostitutes will end up on drugs just to get by. But hey it’s all good

@Eamonn O Connell: what does criminalizing the purchasing of sex achieve to eliminate sex trafficking from eastern europe?

@Eamonn O Connell: so keep things the same, right? If you decriminalise, you have at least a system of some accountability and safety for Women. Secondly you will have more garda resources to spend their time on illegitimate operations where the shady stuff is happening. So you don’t actually help anything by maintaining what we already have, the trafficking will continue. Another point is that illegality creates a stigma around the Women who actually might come forward. Dont believe me? Okay well then look at the times when homosexuality was illegal in the states, and the mafias had them extorted to high heavens, because the Gay community felt they were better with the Mafia, over being in prison.

@Michael Geraghty Bodycoach: it places the blame where it belongs. On the shoulders of people who think it’s ok to rent a human body for their own pleasure without the tedium of caring for the person who is being bought and sold. Each “john” should be placed on a list of offenders.

@IrishFreeSpeechParty: maybe read my post again I said if you legalize it grand. But it won’t get rid of the underground trade as you seem to be suggesting. There will still be people trafficking for the sex trade. Legalizing will help but the vast majority of the problems will remain. Do you honestly think that the people running these ladies are gonna head down to the tax office to register for usc prsi and income tax……… Really ??? Even in countries where it’s legal there’s a huge underground trade and it’s built on exploitation of males females and kids. How do you propose to prevent that ??? The people running this trade are criminals. Very few brothels are self run coop business because girls need protection. Why would girls need protection??

@Eamonn O Connell: cigarettes are legal, people still sell black market cigarettes. What ratio of smokers smoke legal cigarettes over black market?

@2shy: you’re assuming all prostitutes are being forced to do this job. They are not. I am 100% behind stopping human trafficking and modern day slavery, but this will not work. Would you rather just arrest punters a few times a week while continuing to let traffickers traffick people, or would you rather reduce the amount of trafficking by letting the people that want to do this work do it safely which will make it easier to spot unregistered trafficked people, which in turn would make it easier to track and arrest the traffickers themselves, while reducing the market for them to make money off exploiting and forcing women to have sex for money and getting them hooked on drugs. I say it’s a damn good thing you are not making any decisions on this subject.

@Michael Geraghty Bodycoach: seriously !! You’re comparing prostitution with selling fags ??? Btw a huge amount of illegal tobacco is sold in Ireland every day Does that make the exploitation of the most vulnerable of society ok ??

@Eamonn O Connell: Well said.

@Eamonn O Connell: that’s not my comparison. My point was that you said making it legal wont stop underground trade. So I compared your point to black market cigarettes. Smoking is legal, people still sell black market cigarettes, but the market is much smaller. If selling cigarettes was illegal the black market trade would thrive. Today human trafficking is thriving. Your solution is illogical and damaging to these victims. If you’re trying to pull some PC point out of my statement to suit your agenda to try make me seem less human and without a care for these poor people, I think you should do a better job at picking your points. Youd be fantastic on fox news. All the talk of how it is bad for people to be trafficked etc can be made and I doubt anyone will disagree with it.

@Michael Geraghty Bodycoach: I don’t have an agenda at all I cannot understand how anyone would think it ok to exploit the most vulnerable in society. I never mentioned cigarettes but your point on that should have been if you would encourage anyone to take up smoking in the first place. You said that legalizing it would have people safe and happy in an earlier post. Do you think anyone is happy working in the sex trade. How many girls set out in school at 16 or 17 with the idea of being a prostitute. Would you encourage your own daughter to go into it if it was made legal andj if not why not ?? Whether legal or not it’s the mass exploitation and rape of vulnerable women and if you’re ok to legalize that then that’s up to you. Remember it’s the buyers who are criminalized not the sellers

@Eamonn O Connell: ok, first of all, you do understand not every prostitute is forced into it. I saw a clip on primetime (I believe) where an independant lady was choosing to work and was making between €500 – €5000 per day off business men and loved her work. That’s not rape as you put it. That’s consensual trade. I agree that forced prostitution is a horrible thing, 100%. But what I would like to know is what your solution is to the issue, and please dont say criminalise it. We already know that it wont work. Same with drugs, same with prohibition. It makes things worse. So please, what’s your solution to fix human trafficking???

@Michael Geraghty Bodycoach: ah yes you one example of how lovely and safe it is out of how many cases. Would you encourage anyone to do it for a living I note you didn’t answer that. If it’s legalized to purchase do you think that’ll stop the abuses that happen in the vast majority of cases. My answer would be identify these men and women who are forced to sell themselves and give them the help they need to get out of the trade. Do you think the majority willingly go into the sex trade as a lifestyle choice. I’d say most are forced into it by poverty and or addiction problems so perhaps we should start there. You probably know that if it’s legal to do something then the bounds will be pushed further and further and more abuses happen.

@Bruce Van der Gutschmitzer: there is also an ” erection” around the corner.

@IrishFreeSpeechParty: But it’s not two grown adults consenting to sex, it’s one grown adult consenting and the other is having to do it to pay the bills; or has been trafficked; or is a child. The word exploitation is in the Act for a reason.

@Eamonn O Connell: Thats irrelevant what I would and wouldnt encourage someone to do with their life. Its their life. What Im talking about is your black and white view on what prostitution is. Legalising it will not stop abuses happening, but it will drastically reduce them and make the job safer for the ladies that choose to do that job. Like most of us, we are forced to work. Does everyone love what they do, hell no. Does the prostitute that chooses to do it also have the choice to get a job working in a fast food place, a shop, a petrol station etc, yes they do. The choose prostitution because the money is better for them. I think you have this view that all working ladies have a needle in their arm, or work on the streets. I really think you are clutching at straws here simply because of your morals rather than thinking of it logically. I get you dont like it. Im not a fan of it, but looking at it from the outside I can see what the benefit is to make it safer for everyone.

@Michael Geraghty Bodycoach: How do you know criminalisation won’t work? Have you heard of the Nordic model and how successful it has been in Scandinavia? You’re asking for something illegal to be made legal to suit who exactly, the buyer or the seller.

@Michael Geraghty Bodycoach: Firstly, you’re a man, and 99% of those prostituted are women, so I don’t think you are entitled to be spouting nonsense about the exploitation of women. Secondly, legalisation does not make the women safer, it actually emboldens the client to even worse demands and violence as has been seen in Germany.

@Michael Geraghty Bodycoach: nothing to do with my morals at all if you think it’s ok to buy someone then that’s up to you. I’ve seen it from the workers view and it’s a desperate situation for most of them. You are trying to paint it as a normal job like in a filling station when you know it’s not you won’t answer my question as to if you’d encourage someone to take it up because you know you probably wouldn’t. Most working women and men don’t want to do it. Most men buying are exploiting them. Whether it’s made legal or not you cannot dress it up as anything else you use the example of prohibition and legalizing drugs as law that doesn’t work well people still drink and drive and speed but if we didn’t have laws against them then a lot more people would be doing it.

@Eamonn O Connell: Please note that sex works want *decriminalisation* not “legalisation”

A legalised system effectively turns the government and police into pimps who tell sex workers how, when and where they can work.

It restricts sex work to those who are willing to hand over their identification information to the authorities and pay to register for licences to be allowed to do sex work.

It also paves the way for sex workers to be exploited by police who can threaten to take them in because their paperwork “isn’t in order” unless the sex worker gives them a freebie…

Decriminalisation (such as they have in New Zealand and New South Wales) gives sex workers the same rights and protections as any other workers.

@Eamonn O Connell: ” Would you encourage your own daughter to go into it if it was made legal andj if not why not ?? ”

If my daughter (or son, or anyone else who is a *consenting adult*) CHOOSES to go into sex work (or any other work) I would want to know that, if they had any problems, they would be able to go to the police and be treated with respect and sympathy, rather than “you’re a prostitute, what do you expect? It’s part of the job…”

Criminalising buyers actually makes sex workers less safe because it is much more difficult for them to screen out potentially dangerous clients before things go to far.

Not only that, but it gives the power *to* the clients because it’s only the ones who are less caring about breaking the law who are likely to see sex workers, so can demand cheaper prices or extra services that the sex worker wouldn’t want to provide, but may have little choice if they want to pay their rent for the week…

@AffordableLeather: if you were paying attention you would know that it’s not the sex workers who are being criminalized as it’s not an offense to sell sex. The criminal aspect is the person buying and therefore exploiting the sex worker or the pimp running them. A sex worker who goes to the gardai with a complaint will be listened to and the complaint recorded and dealt with properly

@VMKilshaw: So thats what the issue is, youre a feminist, and because im a man I cannot express my opinion on womens rights? Well guess what chicken, just for you heres a fact. There are male prostitutes too, there are female punters also, but you only care about the women and not the people. What about the young men made to do slave labour around the world. You dont think of that, simply because youre a feminist, any only care about human rights, not people rights. I believe that people should be made to feel safe in whatever work they choose to do, if they are forced to do work, thats another issue.

@Eamonn O Connell: I’ll just sit back here and watch your illogical solution fail miserably. Enjoy Church on Sunday.

@Eamonn O Connell: However someone feels about working in the sex industry (personally I hated it) do you seriously think it cheers them up to have their income dropped drastically by sudden, unexpected sex buyer pogroms? Or do you think it makes them feel safer to be afraid to call the Guards for anything because if they do they can kiss their income goodbye for weeks?

Sex workers have to live in the real world, just like you.

@Gaye D: well said, did you choose to work in it?

@Eamonn O Connell: I suggest *you* start paying attention, for instance to the case of the two sex workers who were working together for safety and both were arrested and charged and convicted of Brothel Keeping.

See https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/jailing-of-sex-workers-keeping-brothel-shows-law-not-fit-for-purpose-1.3921149

You might also like to note that there has been an over 90% increase in violence against sex workers in Ireland since they introduced the “client criminalisation” model, but that sex workers have *not* gone to the Gardai because they know that they won’t get treated with respect or helped, except to try to force them out of sex work, whether they want that “help” or not.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/sex-workers-and-the-law-1.3843286

@IrishFreeSpeechParty: The law doesn’t mention ‘trafficked’ persons. This is sloppy journalism.

@Michael Geraghty Bodycoach: what’s church on Sunday got to do with anything. Just cos I’m against exploitation of people must mean I’m a religious fanatic. So by that note because you’re for legalization that makes you an exploitative sex offender ………. don’t be reduced to cheap shots. Debate away but if it’s not working then just stop and don’t start throwing insults

@Eamonn O Connell: if you’re insulted by that then you are easily insulted.

@VMKilshaw: Actually the “Nordic Model” has been shown to be an unmitigated disaster in Northern Ireland
https://www.justice-ni.gov.uk/publications/assessment-impact-criminalisation-purchasing-sexual-services
and there has never been any valid study of the operation of the Nordic Model in Scandinavia – not least because there was no “before” data for comparision.- all claims of “success” are based entirely on opinion and estimate…

My trusted friends who actually sell sex in Scandinavia guess and estimate that it has been and unmitigated disaster there too.

Besides, your own common sense should tell you that NOBODY benefits from a drastic drop in income or being unable to call the cops for fear on same.

@VMKilshaw: 98% of those who sell sexual access openly reject the Nordic model in many cases, primarily because they would like to go on being able to pay their bills, and feel secure in that…

What about them? Don’t they count?

@Eamonn O Connell: A sex worker who goes to the Gardai under the Nordic Model knows that she will jeopardise the income that pays her bills for weeks until she can relocate and rebrand. This is the last thing anyone needs in a traumatic situation. In practice, under the Nordic model sex workers have to much to lose by calling Gardai that they only do so if their life seems to be in danger.

That doesn’t work very well for them.

@Michael Geraghty Bodycoach: I’d would just settle for a situation where feminists with not idea of what they are talking about and a determination to avoid listening to those directly affected would stop superimposing their irrational and misguided opinions on other women’s lives.

@Michael Geraghty Bodycoach:
Because my only viable alternative was suicide to spare myself destitution that would be ongoing torture because of my disability…not great options…but I wasn’t given a say in what my options were going to be, just in how I chose when they were delivered. I resent ANYONE trying to take the option of sex work away from anyone because of that alone.

For anyone who wants to suggest that I “only thought” those were my only options…

Nope…I spent 3 days checking out Civil Society in Dublin first before I was down to my last £5 and had to choose. I certainly could not go through that regularly – sex work gave me a way to survive and feel secure in my survival – I needed both equally desperately.

@Eamonn O Connell: that’s precious, that you think sex workers can just call up the cops & be taken seriously, rather than be taken in & charged with brothel keeping. There were 38 in this article, & none of them charged. There have been almost 50 sex workers charged, convicted, fined, & some jailed, for sharing a flat to work. sure, they ‘can’t’ be charged with selling the services, but it doesn’t mean that they are going to seek out anything from a cop

@2shy: I willingly chose this career in fact I gave up a job in finance to pursue it. Why would you take away my right to choose??? resources would be better spent protecting the real victims of trafficking instead of ladies like me to make an informed choice to rent our bodies!!!

@VMKilshaw: It has not been successful at all. Its put women in danger

@Eamonn O Connell: Ha ha ha , Have you ever asked workers what their experience is with the gardai?? I doubt it, if you had stopped to listen to women you never would have made such a statement

@Kevin Finnegan: read the article. This is about trafficked persons and their safety.

@Kevin Finnegan: How is punishing people who use women and girls, who have likely been trafficked for sex, a waste of time exactly??

@Chin Feeyin: No it isn’t. It’s about punishing sex workers for their ‘immoral ways.’ Here’s just one very recent example:
http://archive.is/2lG5o

@derekcullen: Because most have not been coercively trafficked. Most sex workers simply want to earn money & have made a choice to do so.
What this law actually does is put more power in the hands of buyers, increase violence and sees women arrested & even imprisoned merely for working together. So it’s actually worse than a waste of time, it’s a misguided, dangerous & counter-productive moral crusade.

@Eleanor The Great: How is it a misguided and counter productive moral crusade. Most prostitutes are coercively trafficked, and children too. I suppose you believe in the “sex work is work” mantra which most middle class woke types are wont to spout these days. Sex work is dangerous, exploitative and degrading and the only way to make it safer is to convict the buyers.

@Kevin Finnegan: Operation Breast.

@Green Lentils: The problem is that they’re being told that *all* women are being “held in prostitution” or forced into it or enslaved.

The voices of actual sex workers who just want to be left alone to work and not criminalised for “running a brothel” because they work together with someone else for safety are being ignored.

@VMKilshaw: Where is your evidence that MOST prostitutes are “Coercively trifficked”?

@AffordableLeather: you’re 100% spot on, let’s just assume every single one is in the same situation because why the hell not, life is black and white right?

@VMKilshaw: Eleanor and I have been sex workers, and in my case have known sex workers as equal human beings (not objects) since 1972 yet SOMEHOW we need you to instruct us on the nature of sex work and the structure of what you call “the sex trade”?

Why on earth would you think that?

How would you feel about letting Eleanor and I dictate the rest of your life based on pure guesswork?

@VMKilshaw: As a sex worker with 15 years experience as well as someone with the basic power of logic, I can tell you everything in your post is wrong.
Most sex workers are NOT coercively trafficked, as shown by even the most basic glance at local cases. Two years ago, the Guards raided 23 sex work premises on the same day in a planned country wide operation. They found many sex workers but failed to find a single trafficking victim. Most other cases involve women being cautioned, arrested, deported or even imprisoned, usually for the ‘crime’ of working together (still illegal in Ireland). If you have any evidence for your claim, I genuinely would be interested in seeing it.

Sex work IS work. If it wasn’t I wouldn’t have had an income or paid my bills for the last 15 years, nor would dozens of others I know. You’ll find that providing paid services on a regular basis is indeed work.

Sex work is not in itself dangerous or exploitative, but is much more likely to become so when either party is criminalised. And you don’t get to decide what others regard as ‘degrading’. I’ve done jobs which I found way more degrading than sex work.

As for ”the only way to make it safer is to convict the buyers”, look no further than the USA, where buyers have been actively criminalised for over a century. How has that worked out?

@Green Lentils: this law has nothing to do with trafficking tho. this law targets consenting adults providing and receiving services. these cops couldn’t find a trafficking victim unless she walks in and introduces herself.

@Peter: said the leper to the lady of the night: “Keep the tip.”

@Charmaine Walker: Bruce is on topic highlighting how government indifference to human trafficking, sex workers and education have the same root cause.

@Bruce Van der Gutschmitzer: Totally agree with you on that

@Charmaine Walker: as other posters have mentioned, just pointing out the arrogance, almost disdain, this government shows towards the ppl they govern and then the impact that ignorance has on ppls lives.

@Mjhint: This essay is absolutely awesome it tells one person’s complicated story just the way it is:
https://nplusonemag.com/issue-35/essays/cashconsent/

@Bruce Van der Gutschmitzer:
Sex workers were ruthlessly excluded from all discussion of this law, I know because I played a big part in the few times we shoehorned ourselves in (it was only OUR lives and futures they were deciding, so what business was it of theirs?). Even when were did get in what we said was ignored or distorted.

Not quite everyone ignored us though:
http://opac.oireachtas.ie/AWData/Library3/Addendum_to_Prostitution_Report_124817.pdf

@VMKilshaw: You do not speak for me, how dare you assume that I am exploited, in some way vulnerable or what I do is not work? I was not abused as a child or forced into this WORK by another, The only thing I am a victim is of peoples small mindedness. Do not confuse women who come into this work willingly with women who are trafficked. Resources would be better spent protecting the real victims. I am degree educated, I had a good job in finance but decided on a career change. I am registered as self employed, I pay my taxes, yet because of people like you I do not receive the same protection in law…. The sooner people accept that some of us wiling choose this career the better!!!

@Markonline: the cops have no interest in charging clients of sex workers. Its hard work to try to prove it, plus it is far easier and far more profitable for them to target sex workers working together in one place.

@sunshinesp411: Quite right, They are not interested in protecting us, if they were we would be allowed to work together for safety. No they prefer to do us for brothel keeping and take our hard earned money under proceeds of crime, that’s if it doesn’t line the gardi’s dirty little pockets first

@VMKilshaw: The keywords there were “wants to do it for a living” implying consent & adults, not children. When that’s the case, there is no exploitation & no vulnerability so yes, entirely victimless. When there is exploitation & vulnerability & indeed children, then it’s not victimless because it’s all down to trafficking. There’s a reason why trafficking should remain illegal but theres no reason for consensual prostitution to be illegal. There’s a very distinctive difference between the two.

@Colonel Grant: Maybe if she was enjoying it she wouldn’t be asking for payment.

@Michael Geraghty Bodycoach: Perhaps, and it’s just a thought, if men stopped buying sex then no women or children would be trafficked. No women or children would be abused, defiled, humiliated, killed, raped, beaten. Just a thought, but you do get my point don’t you?

@VMKilshaw: And wouldnt that be the perfect world to live in, but unfortunatly its not. So what is the real solution to the problem that youre offering?

@Michael Geraghty Bodycoach: The real solution to the problem is that men shouldn’t be exploiting women, and one way to stop that is to criminalise the buyer which is what is happening. Sex work is not work, it’s exploitation of the most vulnerable in society. Your cosy little view of prostitution is not the reality. Most women in prostitution are trafficked, drug addicts or beholden to a pimp. What’s your solution?

@Cosmological: Why is it a waste of time? Are you saying the Gardai should not go after anybody committing a crime because it’s a waste of time?

@VMKilshaw: If people stopped going to Nail Bars or buying Cockles or using Hand Car Washes, that would stop people being trafficked into those jobs too…

@VMKilshaw: maybe if we all stopped wearing clothes they would close sweatshops? No point in turning this into a gender issue either. People of all types (m/f) buy and sell sex; it might not be to your, or my, taste but it has been around longer than practically anything else we know. Fire and brimstone didn’t stop it, stds/stis didn’t stop it and journal gender-guilt certainly won’t.

@VMKilshaw: Simple fact – the worst abusers do not expect to pay for anything anyway.

How does destroying their Mum’s income protect sex worker’s kids?

@VMKilshaw:
So your solution to child trafficking is to force other adults to live in terms of your belief system including misrepresentation of who they are as “trafficked” “drug addicts” and “beholden to a pimp”.

In the real world most sex workers can eat a pimp for breakfast then call for toast…and sex worker live in the real world, not your imagination.