WM

A pathetic excuse trying to justify it, didn’t see you give FG/LAB the same excuse….

But Waddler, what happened to the idea that Syriza would lead Greece to victory by taking on Merkel & Co.? What happened to Paul Murphy celebrating with these promise-breakers who are his socialist mates? Are we still meant to view Syriza as the Greek AAA?

Derek,

You misunderstand (probably deliberately) the Socialist Party- Anti Austerity Alliance position on Syriza. It’s quite clear from my comment above that Syriza cannot take on Merkel & Co from within the confines of the Euro and the SP/AAA have always been quite clear on that:

“the experience in the last months should definitively answer the question as to whether any “good euro” strategy is possible – whether it is possible to implement anti-austerity measures, while sticking to the euro at all costs and not decisively challenging capitalism. It is not.
The rules of the Economic and Monetary Union and the EU itself are a neo-liberal straitjacket – designed to ensure adherence to right-wing economic policies, through the power given to the unelected ECB and through restrictions like the Stablility & Growth Targets, the Fiscal Treaty and the six-pack and two-pack. Therefore, any genuinely Left government must be prepared to pursue its demands of debt repudiation and an end to austerity to the end, even if it means being kicked out of the euro. It must prepare people generally for the need for a confrontation with the interests of capital in Europe, in order to set out to restructure the economy and society on a democratic socialist basis – organised for the interests of people, rather than for profit- maximisation.”

http://socialistparty.ie/2015/03/lessons-from-greece-how-can-the-troika-be-defeated/

So is Syriza not a ‘genuinely left government’? Because if they were then surely they wouldn’t have caved into the ECB and EU’s demands and would’ve left, right?

Waffler, so why did Paul Murphy waste tax payers money on his Greek junket?

We’ll have to wait and see Derek. The battle is far from over.

I still firmly believe that Europe is bad for us.it way to powerful we need to get away.the Brits did the right thing when they kept there own currency the punt should of stayed who was in government when these decisions where made.we hav no power at all in government that’s why I want out

‘The corporate elite who the Troika serve”, please help me, I am not trying to be funny, could you name a few of these people who are in this elite?

@Bobby

Ireland won’t get far without Europe

Jayo,
Do you have any evidence that Paul Murphy spent public money illegitimately on his trip to Greece?

No one can keystroke debt out of existence waddler, having your own currency doesn’t change that. You can print more money but that will devalue your currency. You long essay illustrates you don’t really understand how the financial system works.

Still persisting with this socialist utopian nonsense that a country’s debts can just be keystroked away without any negative consequences Waffler?

Murray,
Well, let’s start with Denis O Brien but the list is a long one. Water privatization is always firmly on the agenda once the IMF gets it’s claws into a country as they have done so in Ireland.

Here’s a little reminder of the story so far:

“On March 15, 2012, Denis O’Brien – through his Isle of Man-based acquisition vehicle, Millington – bought Siteserv for €45.4million cash from the IBRC, formerly known as Anglo Irish Bank.
Law firm Arthur Cox represented both IBRC and Millington during the sale.
At the time of the sale, Mr O’Brien owed Anglo hundreds of millions of euro while Siteserv owed Anglo €150million.
The sale involved IBRC agreeing to writing off €100million of Siteserv’s €150million debt.
Mr O’Brien acquired the business on a debt-free basis
In addition, just under €5million was distributed to Siteserv’s shareholders, with them believed to have received €3.92 for every share they owned.………………………
It was reported that Australian hedge fund Anchorage Capital offered a higher price – €52million – but that ‘elements of the offer were considered less attractive then the O’Brien bid’.
It was also reported that French company Altrad claimed it was denied the opportunity to make an offer for Siteserv – saying it had been prepared to offer €60million for the firm but that it was ‘effectively denied the opportunity because its representative was told the Irish group was not for sale…………………
In July 2013, GMC Sierra (a subsidiary of Siteserv) won a State contract to install water meters in Dublin city, the Midlands, Wicklow, Kildare, Offaly, Laois, Mayo, Roscommon, Donegal, Sligo and Leitrim……………….
Last December, Independent TD for Kildare North, Catherine Murphy raised her concerns about GMC Sierra’s water meter contract, in the Dáil, asking how could GMC Sierra be awarded a contract [by former Environment Minister Phil Hogan] for water meters even though it didn’t legally come into existence until July 15, 2013, 15 days after the closing date for bids……………………..”

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2015/03/05/denis-obrien-fine-gael-and-the-water-meter-deal/

Syriza are breaking promises all around them, because they now see after going through the books, their ideology wouldn’t work….?
So should any one leaning left here for next election expect the same?

The Euro enforces fiscal responsibility, something our political leaders have been sorely shy of. There is no such thing as ‘keystroking’ debt out of existence. The concept is hilarious. Are you suggesting that it would be better for us economically to maintain our own currency so that whenever we ‘lose the run of ourselves’ we can just devalue it and everything will be ‘hunky dory’? Pure fantasy. Ask the Argentinians.

Bobby Phelan, you don’t look that young, You seem to have conveniently have forgot the real pressure the punt (and many other smaller currencies ) were under from speculators ?

Waddler, yes. I asked him, via e-mail. He didn’t respond himself, one of his advisors did. He said that the AAA paid for him to go, he said that Paul gives part of his salary to the AAA to fund this trips and other stuff related to the AAA. Pauls salary is paid by the public via taxes, ergo, the public funded this trip.

Shane printing money is exactly what the EU is doing right now with want they call quantitative easing. It’s what the U.S are doing also. It’s what most countries do. The Brits will probably do likewise.

So if Greece had the drachma, the fact they don’t collect taxes, are an under-productive economy, and have a sizeable balance of trade deficit would all be automatically sorted out?

You’re missing the point Andrew – if all currencies engage in QE at the same rate they’ll all maintain the same value relative to each other.
If, on the other hand, a single currency follows more aggressive QE than the others (such as what would be required to clear debt) then its inevitable that its value relative to the others will fall.
This is as basic an economic rule as the law of supply and demand (and in fact is inextricably linked).

Jesus waddler even by your standards that’s pathetic.

The euro enforces fiscal responsibility *in theory*. That rather breaks down when you change all the rules, cook the books, allow in countries which clearly don’t meet the necessary criteria, allow big countries to go off running structural deficits with no consequences and instead scold the country running a budget surplus.

Alan B , just as SF would.

Stephen Byrne,

You couldn’t be more wrong. Sovereign currency nations issuing keystroke debt out of existence and create their own currency at will.
But don’t take my word for it. Here’s Ben Bernanke former chairman of the Fed explaining the same thing.

http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2012/03/where-did-the-federal-reserve-get-all-that-money.html

The Federal Reserve, like any bank, can acquire an asset simply by crediting a bank account. In other words, the bank pays by creating money. As Alan Greenspan explained, the Fed has an unlimited capacity to spend in US dollars. It can pay trillions of dollars with a single keystroke. Here is Chairman Bernanke (Readers can follow is presentation beginning on page 17):

“Now, you might ask the question, well, the Fed is going out and buying 2 trillion dollars of securities – how did we pay for that? And the answer is that we paid for those securities by crediting the bank accounts of the people who sold them to us, and those accounts, at the banks, showed up as reserves that the banks would hold with the Fed. So the Fed is a bank for the banks. Banks can hold deposit accounts with the Fed, essentially, and those are called reserve accounts. And so as the purchases of securities occurred, the way we paid for them was basically by increasing the amount of reserves that banks had in their accounts with the Fed.”

Glad we cleared that up Jayo. So the AAA paid for Paul Murphy’s trip to Greece and there was no illegitimate use of public money as you would like to imply.

Wrong Avina. There is no direct relationship between QE and Fx devaluation.

The U.S has implemented a much larger QE program than the EU and has added $3.5 trillion to its balance sheet since 2009.
http://www.bloombergview.com/quicktake/federal-reserve-quantitative-easing-tape

Despite this massive dollar expansion, the dollar gains in value against the Euro whose latest QE program has only just added €120 billion to the ECB balance sheet in the first installment.

There are in fact no models which can accurately predict Fx movements such is the number and complexity of interrelated variables involved.

What will Paul Murphy say?

waddler you are going to need a new shovel soon :D

That will be Sinn Fein if they get into power, Mary Lou would end up saying that Irish Water needs to stay because we don’t have the revenue blah blah blah.

Is there a relationship between supply, demand and value of a product Waddler?

Waddler, So which country has actually cancelled its debt in this way? any examples?

The United states debt is higher than ever so the US did not do this.

Take a look at this chart which shows the relative proportion of the world’s major currencies in circulation since the 1970′s Waffler. You’ll see that whilst the overall volume has of course been increasing (ie. your dollar will buy you less now than it did in 1970) the proportion of total currency circulation of each currency relative to the others has stayed pretty constant throughout (ie. QE is happening at an equal rate amongst all the currencies involved so they have maintained their relative values).

Still, I’m sure you know best though….

http://static.safehaven.com/authors/hewitt/19827_a.png

Davina,

That chart indicates that the Euro was in circulation since the early 1970s! But hey, I’m sure you and your chart know better than the chairman of the Federal Reserve.

Waddler
Are you serious the AAA paid for Murphy to party in Greece. What a great way to spend their funds

Stephen,
Every sovereign currency issuing state in the world pays debt which is denominated in the domestic currency via simple keystrokes at its central bank. They do not need to obtain their own currency from anywhere as they issue that currency.

The debts of sovereign states are not really “debt” as you and I would understand it. The purpose in issuing government bonds (debt) is to adjust the interest rate to target, not as a necessity to raise revenue.

There is never a need or a desire to clear/cancel the debt as all repayments are simply made via keystroke as they fall due. A sovereign state can never default on debt in its own currency unless it chooses to. Very simply, they can never run out of their own money.

There is a good example of this reality right now where the Swiss Government is actually charging investors to buy their government bonds (so called ‘debt’). Buyers of Swiss debt are getting a negative interest rate and are willing to pay money to hold Swiss bonds. They are paying 0.75% to park their money (minus 75 ‘basis points’ in more of the insider jargon designed to fool the public). In other words, it is a secure deposit facility offered by the Swiss Franc, backed by a sovereign currency issuer. That is why such Swiss government ‘debt’ is issued. The Swiss Gov don’t need to borrow anything to spend in a currency they create from thin air.

No, Ireland won’t get far without the US and UK.

Waddler, the below is a link to a supply and demand curve for money. Note that the supply curve is vertical, and the demand curve slopes downward as expected. Increasing the money supply results in the vertical line shifting to the right, thus the intersection with the demand curve is lower on the supply curve. This is mathematical way of illustrating that increasing the money supply results in a reduction in the price, or more accurately the value, of money. Any thoughts?

http://www.macrobasics.com/chapters/chapter8/lesson83/

Waffler
“That chart indicates that the Euro was in circulation since the early 1970s!”

Luckily there are professional economists out there who are about six steps ahead of you, that are able to calculate the combined values of European currencies prior to the introduction of the Euro itself and use this as a representative value to predate the Euro in charts like this.

The question remains though…

Does Ruth Coppinger know anything about anything?

Unfortunately Egghead I think Waffler is a lost cause. For the last few months I’ve been trying to explain that wholesale printing of money is not some kind of a cure-all panacea for an economy that is in trouble, however he just refuses to accept this reality and persists in his claim that putting a failing economy right is as simple as keystroking new money into existence to clear debts.

I had to laugh at the URL of your link though – “macrobasics”.
Says it all really.
:0)

So why bother with taxation at all Waddles? Surely it’s not required as we can, in your hypothesis, just print all the money we need to pay for the services funded by the State.
Unless of course, there is a limit? If so, in your expert financial opinion… what is it?

Remind me never to lend Waddler Mooney any money…

Egg,

Your graph and the article say precisely nothing about the relationship between the supply of money and fx rates or inflation.

Your graph on the other hand does support exactly what I’ve been explaining to Stephen. Central banks issue government bonds (debt) in return for central bank reserves in order to reduce the amount of reserves and push up the interest rate. In the reverse transaction they buy back the bonds to pump more reserves into the system and drive down the interest rate.

Many thanks for helping to illustrate my point about monetary operations in a sovereign state. Good man.

Good question taxpayer.

Taxation has 2 primary functions. The first is to remove money from the economy. Sovereign government spending creates money and puts it into circulation which is then later removed via taxation. If the supply of money is allowed to grow beyond the productive capacity of the economy to produce real goods & services then inflation will occur.

The second function of taxation is to back the currency and give it legitimacy. It is the government imposed tax liability which can only be paid in the domestic currency that creates a demand for the currency and ensures it is widely accepted. States which cannot enforce the tax liability often find limited demand for their currency which leads to other currencies being used in parallel in the domestic economy as often occurs in developing nations.

Egg,

I’m getting bored with the sniping. If you are genuinely interested in understanding how the monetary system and the macro economy operate (and not the fairytale peddled in the mainstream), you should check out Modern Monetary Theory on the web.

You can find the MMT basics here:
http://modernmoney.wordpress.com/index/

Ruth Coppinger, isn’t she the one that called for Dell to be nationalised? And Clare Daly wants to raise corporation tax. How these left wing loons got elected is beyond me (& I refer to both the Irish and Greek ones).

I think Lowry being a T.D should lead to more confusion.

Especially if they need the cash , what else can they do ?

Same old line about debt not bring real and countries magically producing money out of thin air. If you print more of your own money it devalues, the Swiss franc has devalued through this method. There is consequences to this, only a country with no trade links like North Korea could function by printing as much money of its own money as it likes.

Paul …
Labour are the left wing loons – and Enda went into government with them and now Irish Water is either a distant memory or the infrastructure is the target for every loon in the country !

I know what MMT is Waddler, it’s not ignorance but disagreement you’re dealing with.
How does the graph not display the value of money? Forget FX rates, I’m just talking about the value of money about which you so often talk. Money is a means of exchange for the goods and services in the economy. Your whole theory is dependant on all excess production capacity in the economy, of which there is admittedly a lot at present in the west, to be utilised in unison with your increases in the money supply to ensure you do not dilute the existing value of currency currently in the economy. If this does not occur, and the amount of goods and services in the economy remain static while you increase the money supply, what happens the value of an individual unit of currency? But the assumption of equal or even strong correlation between increasing supply and increasing money is not a safe assumption.

“Swiss Franc exchange rate broadly stronger, gains on Euro, Pound and U.S. Dollar”

http://www.exchangerates.org.uk/news/12692/swiss-franc-exchange-rate-on-euro-pound-and-us-dollar-before-ppi.html

Egg,
You may know what the MMT acronym stands for but you don’t understand the principles based on your comments.

The link you sent on is also highly questionable. The statement:

“The government or central bank (the Federal Reserve in America) in most countries controls the amount of money available in the economy at any given point in time. Because the money supply is constant at any time,…..”

Is utter nonsense. The commercial banks create new money each and every time they issue a loan and the government does little or nothing to prevent this as we found to our cost during the Irish property bubble. Since the 1980s the global money supply has increased almost exponentially as the deregulated commercial banks massively increased their loan books and expanded the money supply (The money is uncreated as the loans are repaid but at a much slower pace).

Where is the hyperinflation that monetarists screech about?

You are absolutely correct that there is an excess of productive capacity and output in the developed world. Therefore there is no lack of any of the real resources (e.g. energy, food, material to build housing etc) to meet the human needs of the citizens of the Europe or anywhere in the developed world. Neither can there ever be a shortage of money at a macro level as explained. So all the ingredients are present to solve the economic and social crisis in Europe and elsewhere.

Therefore it in inarguable that austerity and deprivation is a policy choice at national government and EU level .This policy choice serves the interest of capital as more and more of the world’s resources accumulate to the 1% at the expense of the majority. The power and control of the 1% big capital elite would be eroded significantly if it was understood that the sovereign state faces no financial constraints within the domestic currency and so has no need to obtain money from private sources i.e. the financial markets.

I didn’t even read what was in the link, I just looked for a link to that graph so nothing that was in the article has anything to do with my argument. That graph is the supply & demand graph for money though Waddler, it can be calculated and it is the accepted equation of economic theory. You’re arguing against mathematics. That doesn’t necessarily mean you’re wrong, but you’ve gotta counter some pretty strong maths with some pretty strong alternatives to be right.

Egg,

The graph is based on the assumptions laid out in the article. One of the assumptions (entirely incorrect) is that the money supply is constant and so it’s represented as a vertical line (MS) on the graph. If the authors can’t get that basic principle right then it’s best to ignore them.

By the way Waddler, I don’t disagree that there is no shortage of goods and services to service the current demand of everyone in Europe, and I don’t disagree that the mechanisations of the financial system itself is largely responsible for much inequality in society, I just don’t think MMT is the answer because MMT misses the point. The whole system is no longer fit for purpose, truly revolutionary change is required, not really adaptations of the current systems. The problem is, everyone knows whenever you try to change the entire structure of society disaster follows, except every time the entire structure of society has been altered and it all worked out fine, like every generation in the last hundred years! The answers aren’t in socialism which is a tried & failed method, and they don’t exist in monetary parlour tricks which always end in tears too. I reckon the next generation will figure it all out and just consider it common sense, and we’ll still be arguing over socialism and capitalism!

You raise some interesting questions Egg but I don’t have the time to go into them now as I’m off out for a few well earned scoops. I’m sure we’ll lock horns again soon!

With a list that long you’re bound to have a few that are right. If you were being honest your answer would have been that you don’t know. Also, the US have been printing billions out of thin air for years. It used to be the case that currency had to be backed by Gold reserves but now they just turn on a machine and press start.

We all owe money to each other,
Money is made to go around.
That’s why bills must be paid, or where there is someone is under pressure accommodation should be reached.
If everyone decided in the morning not to pay…..imagine the fall out.

I do know. All of the answers provided are correct. The list probably isn’t exhaustive enough. And any government in control of their own currency that prints billions ‘out of thin air’ devalues the money that savers of that currency are holding. Ask Zimbabweans.

So given the fact that all of the superpowers of the world run at tremendous deficits (US, UK, Germany etc) with no intention of ever repaying their losses why do we put their political ideas and influence on a pedestal above smaller nations? Because they’re less sh*t at balancing their books? I don’t need to ask Zimbabweans, the FED have been bluffing the world for years and still haven’t been found out. And Patrick you are correct. Accommodation should be reached. Playing hardball with the Greeks is not the solution nor is a complete write off of their debt. It’s nice to see them stand up for themselves though. I’m interested to see how it pan’s out.

Who is putting what on which pedestal? We are discussing the hard realities of a largely market-based global economy. Greece can p*ss and moan all they want but there is no escaping the realities facing them. Do you think the ordinary punter in the US or the UK has been unscathed by the recent recession? We are coming out of the trough of yet another economic cycle, of which there will be thousands and thousands more to come. Troughs are painful yes but over the long haul the global economic system we have has lifted billions out of poverty and provided the average person on earth with a standard of living that was probably inconceivable a few hundred years ago. I would advise anyone to walk a mile in the shoes of a pauper in New Delhi before talking about Greek or Irish ‘hardship’. We’ve gone soft. “I can’t afford a flatscreen for the guest bedroom”. First world problems.

I would argue that technological and medical advances have lifted those billions out of poverty. The global economic system has just stumbled along with it. What frustrates me is that people seem happy to settle and not question a system that is far from perfect. Anyone who does is branded a leftist. Almost daily there are articles criticising the Greeks for challenging their creditors yet there is no international condemnation of what the FED are doing. Their actions are going to cause a whole lot more trouble than the Greeks asking for a debt reshuffle.

Where do you think technological and medical advances come from? Magic and pixie dust? Goodwill and charity? No. It was the market-based economy and competition. One company spends money inventing a product or drug and then reaps the reward in terms of profits. Another company sees this and spends money bringing out its own cheaper better product and gains market share. The first company then has to improve its original product. Round and round we go, generating income, wealth, jobs and cheaper and better products.
You’re correct that the system is far from perfect though. The fact remains that over the course of the entirety of history it has demonstrated itself as the best one we have come up with (by chance more than by design). Other systems like those of the USSR, Cuba, Venezuela, etc. have all been abject failures.

Goes to show how little you know. UKIP as a leftist party? Are you having a laugh? Very disappointing also to see how happy some of you’s are at the downfall of Greece. Delighted to see that a left wing party is struggling so that it pumps up your egos in supporting fg or ff or whatever other notions you have. They aren’t even a year into their first term. We should be looking to align with periphery countries like Greece rather than lick up core countries who couldn’t give a fcuk about us. What is annoying however is how they have gone back on their privatisation policy. And don’t give me this bullsh**
t of ‘oh well that’s what leftist parties do’. Look around you people, Kenny and co have had plenty of incidents where they lied through their teeth. Same as the government before. Fg/lab have had close to 5 and they have rectified very little and continued much of the same. The only positive that we can take from this government is that they passed a referendum that should have been the case since the 90s. And even at that they could fail as there are many within the ‘Christian Democratic Party’ as Kenny once coined it that are probably secretly against it.

Ukip leftist!! Wtf. And this comment is on 27 green thumbs and counting?

Thank you, Andrew… first bit of sensible commentary here. The place is over-run with delighted FG/L supporters who think this story somehow vindicates their idols’ disdain for the people and property of this country.

LOL Yaka, you are an absolute jackass if you think Ukip are leftist,
well named you are,
an a bsolute solid plank of wood sits on your shoulders i reckon, not to mention all the dopes that automatically thought you were gloating and attacking Syrzia and thumbed you green just to jump on another bandwagon.

That idiotic post of yours has actually gona a long way to explaining how many gobsheites follow FG and LB
Ha!, thanks for the insight

Voting eligibility should seriously be conditional on passing an IQ test.

What an elegant and articulate comment!

You’re right Conn, an IQ test would be useful to stop idiots like Andrew and Pearse from believing that Syriza would be any different than the other Govts. Greece has had. I know that every party tells lies and makes unfulfilled promises, but we were told by Paul Murphy & Co. that Syriza was a new breed and we’d see how much more Greece would get from the Troika than us, because (apparently) they were going to play hardball with them. Well they showed how hard they played when they caved in just like everyone else before them.

No, it would weed out people who think that, because of this, we should vote for the right wing parties we have in this country. What is it they say about trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results?

Alright Derek calm your wee tits there. At least post under a real profile rather than hiding behind a faceless account. I’m here for everyone to see me but that’s beside the point. As already mentioned they aren’t even a year into their term and people are waiting for them to fall. This is probably due to the fact that if they did achieve something on the off chance it would make our lads in the dail look rather pathetic wouldn’t it. Let’s just wait and see how this all pans out. Europe is by no means on the path to recovery as they tried to suggest in the last few days. Tories in threatening a brexit and the fact that you have a very left leaving party in Greece speaks volumes on how the European project is in a rocky phase. Spain Portugal Italy and ourselves are yet to vote so you could have some strange parliaments when they do. And don’t throw Paul Murphy at me. The man got on a horn when they were voted in. So what? We had Kenny giving Cameron a jingle in the last few days probably begging him not to leave the EU or asking could we rejoin the commonwealth.

Andrew, you seem to be competely sold on the Socialist policies of the loonies in the Dáil, so I’m probably wasting my time trying to educate you but here goes, Cameron doesn’t want to leave Europe, he only promised to give his right wing backbenchers a referendum in order to stop the rise of UKIP, which worked well for him. Syriza may only be a few months in power, but it’s clear that they’re failing as they’ve broken numerous promises and they swore they would play hardball and threaten the EU with leaving, but none of that happened because the majority of Greeks want to stay in the EU. Waddler Moloney (an AAA poster) commented above that a left leaning govt. would fight austerity tooth and nail, even if it meant getting kicked out of Europe. Well Syriza haven’t done that and won’t do that, so maybe they’re not the leftist govt. you believe them to be. Whatever happens next year, it’s clear that the AAA and the rest of the socialist muppets sold us that Syriza would be a framework from which they would implement policy were they to be elected. Well it’s pretty clear that things wouldn’t be very different if they were in power.

Derek, i stopped reading your comment when i got as far as “loonies”. You’re either the same person who controls the other accounts we’re all familiar with, or you work for the same team. Have a bit of respect for other people. I don’t say “blue collar organised criminals” every time i mention FG/L/FF and I have more of a right to say that than you do to call anyone “loonies”.

I’m not a shill, member of either FG or Labour and I operate only this account, which I mainly use in the 42. I call you ‘loonies’ because your policies are indeed that; completely crazy. Socialism has never worked properly in any country in history, and that will not change if it’s implemented here. I will vote for this current Govt. next year because they haven’t done a terrible job, and despite what the Opposition like to purport, Noonan and Kenny have actually grinded out much better terms on our loans than Syriza have. We’ve gotten lower interest rates and time extensions because Kenny knew how to shmooze Merkel, instead of trying to out-bully her. Things aren’t great at the moment, but they’re a lot better than 4 years ago, and will continue to improve. This current Govt. is far from perfect, but no Govt. is, and I’m 100% sure that Paul Murphy, SF or any of the other leftist parties would have our country sink down the drain if they were elected.

This government hates the electorate and all elected representatives outside their own little club. They’ll never get a vote from me. This is not a case of “better the devil you know”. It’s that exact mantra that has allowed them the freedom to get away with so much corruption and deception. Never again.

Why would they be friends with opposition party members? Of course they’re going to have their own little club, because that’s what a political party essentially is. And every Govt. is guilty of some form of corruption or deception. FF were the kings of it back in the Tiger-era, SF lied about IRA involvement and Gerry Adams is still covering his dirty past, and as one poster has researched above, Paul Murphy indirectly used tax payer funds to fund his little socialist party trip to Greece when Syriza got elected. No Govt. is 100% honest because no human is 100% honest.

Ok but that’s not acceptable to me. One major change i want to see is one for accountability. The citizens need to be able to call elections and referenda any time there is sufficient support for one. It’s no longer acceptable to have fat cats sitting comfortably and immune from public outrage for 5 years, leaving them free to trample all over democracy in the run up to their overdue exits.

By the way… re your line “I call you ‘loonies’ because your policies are indeed that” – So you’re calling ME a loony now… not just the parties you think I’ll vote for… For the record, I’ve never voted for a left-wing party either. There isn’t a single party that I would stand over with confidence. The only TDs in the Dáil that I believe have anything resembling a brain cell in their heads are independent. Stephen Donnelly and Catherine Murphy spring to mind.

It fills me with shame and despair to think the likes of Enda Kenny, Pat Rabbitte, Eamonn Gilmore, Joan Burton, Michael Noonan, Phil Hogan, Alan Kelly, etc., ever held positions of power and respect.

That is a unbelievably bad idea you’ve just proposed, and is also incredibly vague. If the people could call an election at any time, then we’d have a very unstable Govt., which is what happened in Weimar Germany and allowed the Nazis to thrive. And what is ‘sufficient support’? 10k signatures? 100k signatures? 1million signatures? 4 or 5 years is a perfect measure as it allows a Govt. to be fairly judged with adequate time and it’s not too long so they can become a dictatorship. Allowing the people to call a referendum with a sufficient amount of signatures is done in Switzerland, but I’d be wary of the costs of having referenda every few months because people keep signing petitions.

I agree with you that there aren’t too many nice people in the Dáil, but that’s politics. D*ckheads have clung to power for thousands of years, and nothing in my lifetime is going to change that.

as one poster researched above…….
Are you taking the piss or what? – You know this for a fact that he researched??
If you believe that, I have a bridge i`d like to sell you.
I happen to know that Paul Murphy answers his OWN E-mails, as i have corresponded with him on a number of occasions,
So you can blow that out your hole for starters derek

Article 48 of the original Constitution set the figure at 75,000 signatures. I think that’s fair. If 75,000 people want to change the colours of the Irish flag, I say let them put the question to the rest of us. It probably won’t pass but that is a democracy I can believe in.
What we’re seeing right now is nothing short of a dictatorship, Derek. The number of people paying the water bills is too low for Irish Water or the government to even quantify in public, because it would hold their lies about compliance rates up for all to see. Why, in the name of all that is good, do you think their behaviour is acceptable? Do you think fear and intimidation are the only tools with which to run a country?
The only way to change what you’re calling the inevitability of an ever-corrupt status quo, is to remove that 5 year safety net. If they can’t show that they’re progressing with their promises in a shorter time frame than that, then they’re not fit for the job.

I also got a reply to a facebook comment from Stephen Donnelly almost as soon as I’d made it. Can you ever see Enda doing that????

last thing, Derek… if this is what you’d call a “stable” government. I’d rather have anarchy.

Derek quick to judge aren’t we? Where you got the notion from that I was a socialist is beyond me. Not that it offends me or anything but it’s interesting to see how someone who doesn’t conform with current EU politics and the mistreatment of certain nations over others is automatically branded a socialist. Maybe I am with such an interpretation. Good to see we have an outspoken fascist on our hands. See what I’m getting at here Derek? What does someone of your political insight think of all the blatant corruption and cronyism that goes on within the EU and Ireland? Do you think Kenny has done a good job of taking it up the arse from Germany and the likes of Mr O’Brien? Well interestingly enough Cameron said he doesn’t want anymore immigration and then what happens yesterday? EU comes out and says that all member states will have to take a share of individuals who are trying to get into Europe. I think Cameron would be delighted with a brexit as would many of both a right and left leaning persuasion in Britain for different reasons obviously. I just hope that whoever is elected next year they at least try and fight upon our behalf regarding Europe and other cases. From my newly acquired ‘socialist’ thinking, perhaps a left leaning government would be no harm in Ireland. The domination of ff and fg since the creation of the state hasn’t really worked has it? You can’t really argue with me there or perhaps you can. I look forward to your hate riddled reply.

Rhetoric, rhetoric and more rhetoric from you Andrew. How have FG and FF-led Governments failed us? We’ve gone from a potato farmer state to one of the wealthiest nations in Europe. Cronyism happens everywhere and has existed as long as politics has existed; sure it’s a bad thing, but nothing will ever stop it. This FG govt. has done far better with the EU and ECB than their predecessors and much better than Syriza. If you think that we would have a chance of fighting them head on, then God bless you because you really have no clue how politics works. Kenny has done a great job of shmoozing Merkel into giving us a better deal by reducing the interest rates; how much has Syriza gotten back for Greece other than a few headlines?

And Conn, I’m sure our Taoiseach has far better things to be doing than respond to fb messages.

Yeah, like sell our assets out from under us. That’s not a good thing. I’d rather he played Candy Crush all day

So from your logic we should suck up to our overlords? Here you have it folks. The mentality of a fg supporter. I hope you continue to be walked on all your life because with an absolutely ridiculous statement like that it’s obviously you who has no clue in relation to how politics work. But I suppose fg never achieved anything in its history. It was always prepared to compromise from the 1921 treaty to sunningdale and the Anglo Irish agreement and ttip more recently. It has always been conservative in its outlook and its approach to policies. Varadker wouldn’t even come out as gay until the referendum was announced. He had to live a lie. I’m glad you spewed that crap as it confirmed what I always thought. Fg is a party for big business big farmers and big arse pockets for their friends. Maybe if they had some courage they’d get reelected for more than one term in government. And if they do somehow break the trend this year they’ll have to get in bed with their sister in ff and then all the ‘loonies’ in SF, the AAA, PBP and other whacky left leaning parties. I can’t wait.

We should “toddle on” now, Andrew. Derek shouldn’t have to “spoonfeed” us with reasons as to why our government should be allowed to do what they do. He should just tell us “where to go”

I think so Conn. It’s a pity it had to resort to such a personal level. I suppose I’ll just have to take it on the chin and try ‘schmoozing’ in order to get accepted and get by in life. It seems to be the only way.

It IS a pity. It’s a direct symptom of the divide/conquer tactics we’re seeing play out in the media more and more with each passing day since the sleeping beast of an Irish public woke up to what’s really happening with tax-payer money. I don’t want to fight with fellow citizens over it. I simply want corrupt political heads on plates. Derek argues that corruption is simply a fact of life we have to accept. I don’t believe we should have to accept it at all.

But anyway… it’s Friday and it’s nearly 5 bells… have a good weekend folks!

Did he ever own a yacht?

I don’t think he heard yet, he’s up in leinster house with his bib on waiting for Enda to bring his baby bowl

Waddles – Greece is a democracy- they elected a party that wants to stay in the euro. If the Greeks elect a party that wants to leave the euro, they are welcome to leave. I’m sure no one would try to stop them.

I don’t understand your long rants at the best of times, but you’re just wrong.