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Will Oliver/PA Wire

McGuinness claims 'extreme loyalism' is setting the unionist agenda on Haass proposals

The Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland made the comments as the Haass-O’Sullivan team published a summary of the proposed deal.

DEPUTY FIRST MINISTER Of Northern Ireland Martin McGuinness has said that “extreme loyalism” is setting the agenda of unionist parties in Northern Ireland as they consider Haass proposals.

McGuinness made the comments as the UUP is set to meet tonight to consider the draft agreement with party leader Mike Nesbitt not yet giving a formal position on whether he backs the draft deal.

McGuinness said that he is concened that the Orange Order is having too much influence in the decision making process of unionist parties:

It is clear that there are elements of the Orange Order and extreme loyalism who do not want to see progress, they do not want to see agreement and they are hostile to the idea of peace building and a shared future. Adopting a negotiating strategy which is driven by these negative elements is a huge mistake.

The Sinn Féin leadership is recommending to its grassroots to accept the Richard Haass draft deal while the SDLP and the Alliance Party are also endorsing the proposals.

The DUP and the UUP have not yet said whether they would recommend the acceptance of the draft but the DUP said following the negotiations that they could not back it in its current form.

McGuinness said that Haass had “delivered his final text”  and issued a call to unionists to “stand with the vast majority who want to see progress, not with the rejectionist elements within the Orange Order who wish to see this process fail”.

“In recent days I have heard talk about the establishment of a working group on the Haass proposals. The negotiation has ended. The only purpose in establishing an all-party working group is to ensure the implementation of the document as it stands not to reopen negotiations on its contents,” he added.

Fact sheet

McGuinness’s comments came as Haass and vice-chair Meghan O’Sullivan released a two-page fact sheet to provide the public with information on the draft agreement that was completed on New Year’s Eve.

Both the fact sheet and the draft document itself have now been published online and contain details about some of the differences of opinion that existed on the negotiating table.

The fact sheet explains that the issue of flags and emblems was the most divisive issue. Haass and O’Sullivan say that this was in large part because these issues run deeper than the team had the authority to discuss.

“Views on this issue were closely tied to larger debates about sovereignty, identity, and related matters that were beyond the remit of these talks,” they said.

One issue that did achieve more consensus, however, was the issue of contending with Northern Ireland’s legacy of violence with the team claiming that the draft agreement “makes substantial progress in addressing the past”.

The agreement did not provide an amnesty for those who came forward with information on the conflict but it did “provide those coming forward with limited immunity, also known as inadmissibility, for statements”.

This would be done through an Independent Commission for Information Retrieval (ICIR) to enable victims and survivors to seek and privately receive information about conflict-related events.

There was also a call for the replacement of the PSNI’s Historical Enquiries Team with a new a Historical Investigations Unit (HIU) with the full investigative powers of the PSNI.

Read: SF tells Unionists to make up their mind about Haass proposals >

Read: Haass talks in Belfast end without agreement >

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153 Comments
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    Mute The David Irving
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    Jan 6th 2014, 5:00 PM

    As guests in our country the unionists would want to learn to compromise.

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    Mute Bernard
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    Jan 6th 2014, 5:13 PM

    FFS!

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    Mute The David Irving
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    Jan 6th 2014, 5:21 PM

    What Bernard?
    It’s like me coming around to your house tonight and insisting we watch what I want to watch on telly and sitting in your sit.

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    Mute The David Irving
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    Jan 6th 2014, 5:24 PM

    *seat*

    55
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    Mute Bernard
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    Jan 6th 2014, 5:38 PM

    David, where to begin with your comment?
    “Our country”? Whose country? Northern Ireland? How are people born and raised in Northern Ireland “guests”? It’s not “our country” – you believe it’s “my country” and you better do as I want.
    No one is coming into your house tonight and switching Big Bang Theory over to Eastenders!
    Compromise, understanding and respect goes both ways. You seem to be saying “There’s only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people’s cultures and the Unionists”

    BTW is your screen name deliberately after David Irving the English writer and Holocaust denier? #justasking

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    Mute The David Irving
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    Jan 6th 2014, 5:45 PM

    Never heard if him Bernard.
    And this is Ireland isn’t it?

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    Mute Bernard
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    Jan 6th 2014, 5:52 PM

    OK, was just asking if it was a deliberately chosen pen name.

    You mean Ireland as in the Republic? The country (not the football team)?
    Or the island of Ireland? Because that’s got Ireland and Northern Ireland on it.

    Does the UUP have a delegation travelling to Ireland as guests of the Irish State?

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    Mute The David Irving
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    Jan 6th 2014, 5:59 PM

    No I mean the island of Ireland which in my opinion is one state.
    I’ve no problem with unionists they are welcome to live in a untied Ireland as part of a true republic.

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    Mute James Buchanan
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    Jan 6th 2014, 6:02 PM

    I’m no guest in your country mate, Northern Ireland is my country.

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    Mute The David Irving
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    Jan 6th 2014, 6:03 PM

    How did it become your country James through tyranny and murder like the rest of the British empire.

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    Mute James Buchanan
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    Jan 6th 2014, 6:10 PM

    Dont try and make out im a guest in this country, I was born here and have lived here for all of my 32 years.

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    Mute Conor
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    Jan 6th 2014, 6:11 PM

    So we now know where Bernard is coming from. It explains alot.

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    Mute Bernard
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    Jan 6th 2014, 6:13 PM

    Actually David, you’ll find the British Empire was acquired mostly through trade and colonial rule mostly done through consent. It’s testimony that it mostly peacefully transitioned into the Commonwealth of 53 nations, of which 32 are republics.
    Funny the Gaels occupied parts of western Scotland (Dalriada) then Bruce invaded Ireland and back and forth, and so on and so on.

    Can’t you all just get along?

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    Mute Cillian_Durkin
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    Jan 6th 2014, 6:45 PM

    They live here too.

    What Unionism needs to do is start to respect others and accept that their days of supremacy and domination are over.

    The Irish identity is as valid and legal now as they are, this means everything they are entitled to, the green is entitled to. Shared future means shared future.

    I cannot see how Unionism can exist in a society where the Green is equal to the Orange, impossible to be a Unionist and accept that.

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    Mute Cillian_Durkin
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    Jan 6th 2014, 6:46 PM

    Thanks Bernard for the National Front School of History update.

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    Mute Marc
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    Jan 6th 2014, 7:03 PM

    I knew I could smell James on here. You come out with the same old crap as always. Go blow your whistle somewhere else. 32 you say, explains a lot!!!

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    Mute John Lacey
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    Jan 6th 2014, 7:06 PM

    Bernard are you a Catholic living in N.Ireland? If not how would you feel about 3000 sectarian marches all year round? Where drunken sectarian louts sing songs like the famine is over go home and up to our waist in Catholic blood, smashing residents windows and pissing on Catholic churches.

    I think that’s a simple question without any whataboutery could you give me a simple answer?

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    Mute Marc
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    Jan 6th 2014, 7:06 PM

    I knew I could smell James on here. Same old bull from you as usual. Go blow your whistle somewhere else. 32 you say, explains a lot.

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    Mute Bernard
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    Jan 6th 2014, 7:10 PM

    Cillian, National Front? It’s true. Look it up. Everything doesn’t have to be viewed through the “Britain is bad” glasses. How can you say you want a “united Ireland” but then ridicule history? Irish/British it’s all the same to anyone from outside these islands anyway… When Scotland votes “no” to breaking away and the UK leaves the EU then a united Ireland, as part of the UK again, will be a tempting possibility. Vive la difference! Unity is strength!
    Peace and goodnight to you all:)

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    Mute Paul Mc
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    Jan 6th 2014, 7:10 PM

    No such country as Northern Ireland.

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    Mute Patrick Behan
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    Jan 6th 2014, 7:18 PM

    They are not guests in our Republic of Ireland, they are in there own country Northern Ireland.

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    Mute James Buchanan
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    Jan 6th 2014, 7:21 PM

    Cillian i’m a Unionist and I have no problem with people being equal, your claim that its impossible to be unionist and embrace equality is a complete farce.

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    Mute Marc
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    Jan 6th 2014, 7:21 PM

    Born in Ireland, your Irish. End of. Some people have a British Passport just like some people from India or Pakistan living in England.

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    Mute Conor
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    Jan 6th 2014, 7:25 PM

    Bernard your trolling here and efforts at re-writing history are weak and pathetic. Is this your last stand?

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    Mute Green Rebel
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    Jan 6th 2014, 7:28 PM

    There’s no such country as “Northern Ireland”….

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    Mute Chris Doherty
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    Jan 6th 2014, 7:29 PM

    David you too are a guest in this country, Scotts Normans Vikings Celts all invaders . Just because you got here first doesn’t make the island yours

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    Mute John Lacey
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    Jan 6th 2014, 7:43 PM

    David there was one big difference all them groups you mention integrated into the Irish people of today what integration did the Ulster Scots/ Scots Irish do? Anywhere in the world where there was a large population of Irish the orange order has set up a opposition leading to riots and churches being burnt and that’s going back a hundred years in America for example. But America eventually banned marches same as Australia and Canada.

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    Mute John Lacey
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    Jan 6th 2014, 7:46 PM

    Sorry I meant Chris

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    Mute Timmay Timeo
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    Jan 6th 2014, 8:26 PM

    You are right about that, this David Irving is very silly, Ireland is not one state. Perhaps some day in the future when we learn to love and respect each other we could get together but for as long as people make claims like unionists are guests it can never happen.

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    Mute The David Irving
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    Jan 6th 2014, 8:50 PM

    @james sorry called away
    Now I’m sure you’re a lovely chap and all that but can you please answer my question without going off on a rant.
    How is this your country?
    Yes you might have been born here but at some stage somebody in your family left the uk and came to this island to claim it in the name of the British empire?

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    Mute James Buchanan
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    Jan 6th 2014, 8:57 PM

    Am I kissing a point here David, I was born here, my parents were born here, my grandparents were born here, I lived here for 32 years. How can this not be my country and in your opinion what is my country?

    Not going to go off on any rants here, why would I. Just trying to understand the nationalist/republican mindset and how they view us.

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    Mute James Buchanan
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    Jan 6th 2014, 9:05 PM

    *Missing (Obviously) lol

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    Mute Marc
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    Jan 6th 2014, 9:08 PM

    Ireland is your country James. The tricolour it’s flag. Your parents and grandparents are Irish if they were born in Ireland.

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    Mute The David Irving
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    Jan 6th 2014, 9:09 PM

    You can kiss my point anyday baby:)
    Now being serious so you are saying you come from an Irish born family who decided for no reason to believe that a small portion of this island belongs to the uk?

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    Mute Cillian_Durkin
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    Jan 6th 2014, 9:16 PM

    James. That is just his point of view and I have never heard it expressed too often.

    The older strategy was reunification first, then reconciliation but now it is reconciliation first, then reunification.

    This reconciliation will not though be at the price of laying back down but on a shared and equal future. I don’t think you fully appreciate how revolutionary that is going to be for the North.

    Remembrance Squares having a monument to 1916 alongside the cenotaph etc. Roads and parks named after Irish hero’s and patriots. All signs in Irish and English. Not replacing, but beside the old Orange ones and so on.

    Shared future and all equal, it’s the law now, suck it up or take up the rifle, Unionism’s choice.

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    Mute James Buchanan
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    Jan 6th 2014, 9:18 PM

    My parents were born in NI. NI is their country as it is mine. NI does belong to the UK, its a fact. Surely you are aware of it?

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    Mute James Buchanan
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    Jan 6th 2014, 9:20 PM

    What roads etc would you want renamed Cillian and what should they replace? Where should these 1916 rising memorials be?

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    Mute The David Irving
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    Jan 6th 2014, 9:27 PM

    Ok James you win you can have the six counties so.

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    Mute James Buchanan
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    Jan 6th 2014, 9:36 PM

    Just stating widely known fact David.

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    Mute The David Irving
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    Jan 6th 2014, 9:42 PM

    Ok James I agree with you I’ve already said you are correct.
    You argument is convincing I think the republic should rejoin the commonwealth.
    Where can I buy a Union Jack?

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    Mute Gerard Tuohy
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    Jan 6th 2014, 10:06 PM

    david irving i love your comments youa re the man !!! i meant to say to you yesterday when i read your post,have you ever read a any books by a man called paul rassinier ????

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    Mute John Williams
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    Jan 6th 2014, 11:47 PM

    You are being ignorant. As it stands Northern Ireland is part of the United kingdom which is what the majority of people there want. We have two countries on this lovely little island, why can’t we all just get along and be good neighbours to each other.

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    Mute Gerard Tuohy
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    Jan 7th 2014, 3:14 AM

    @ john,that is the most stupid statement ive ever had the misfortune to hear !! the majority of people on this island do NOT want the north as a part of the UK and id wager the majority of the UK dont give a sh*t about the north of a country they dont very much like,im sure they’d much rather all the money thats wasted up there to be spent on their own children etc,but thats irrelevant because they have no say in the matter

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    Mute John Williams
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    Jan 7th 2014, 12:01 PM

    Read what I said! The majority of people in NORTHERN IRELAND WANT TO BE BRITISH YOU APE!!! I’m irish I live in Ireland and I am from Ireland, myself and yourself I presume are not British. I know exactly how the rest of the uk feel about Northern Ireland thank you very much, I lived there for 5 years, but at this moment in time the people in Northern Ireland want to stay where they are and while that is the case it is pretty ignorant for people in Ireland to go around saying there is no such country as Northern Ireland or it’s illegally occupied etc. if your going to use that argument then everyone has invaded Ireland because the human race holds its origins in Africa. Now why we can’t just get along and be good neighbours to each other.

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    Mute Gerard Tuohy
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    Jan 7th 2014, 4:45 PM

    now now john dont be shouting at me because you just made a massive c*nt of yourself on the interent for everyone to see,i am gona try to break it down into manageable pieces for you, 1 there is absolutely no proof that the majority of people in the north want to remain part of the UK,did i miss the referendum ??? 2, your argument about afica is just plain ridiculous,first off no one within living memory remembers that event,its just not in the collective memory of the people but the invasion and supression of our race an culture is and its on going,there is no such country as the north because its a segment of the whole,if the people of kerry decide in the morning they want to become a seperate state will the goverment allow it ?? no because they are part of the country as a WHOLE,you cnat just ask the people of the north what they want because they arent a seperate entity from us,proof of that ?? they never claimed to be seperate when they held sway over the whole island,we get control then suddenly the north is a country in itself,also two counties that had a majority of catholics/gaelic people awere given to north purel;y to bulk it up,same goes for the city of derry,where is your majority now ?? and lastly you and i are not from the same ireland,im a proud irishman not a watery west brit who spent too long in england

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    Mute John Williams
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    Jan 7th 2014, 6:16 PM

    Yes you define your irishness on how much you dislike the British……. Hmmm you know nothing about me. Britain has been good to this country in very recent years especially with out youth who have gone there in search of work that they couldn’t get in their own country. I love Ireland it’s my home and it’s where I grew up it’s where I live now and will live for the rest of my life. I used to think exactly like you did but then I grew up! You defined your standards when you brought the c word into this. I have nothing to prove to the likes of you. Think what you want. Your small minded and you will never change. I feel sorry for you.

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    Mute Gerard Tuohy
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    Jan 7th 2014, 7:38 PM

    listen john dont you dare tell me how i define my irishness,it has nothing to do with hating britain id prefer to have absolutely nothing to do with them,id prefer they never gave me a reason in the first place to dislike them,id prefer i didnt speak english but such is life,you can claim whatever morale high ground you want,its a sad attempt and very childish,i cursed so what ???? does it make my points wrong ?? NO it doesnt,you brought insults into it i responded simple as that,you have spent too mcuh time over there,they were good to us how ?? leaving us build there country and then treating us like sh*t ?? check out the many articles about the irish in the uk during the 60′s who build their cities and then were forgotten about and live on the streets now,you act like the UK has done us some sort of special favour they have people form somalia to pakistan living there and its their colonial legacy,i hope it bankrupts them,as for me being small minded thats just a tired cliche,because i have an educated dislike of a nation doesnt mean im narrow minded,i can guarantee you i am more wordly and well traveled than you,you make the classic mistake of thinking because you’ve across the irish sea that you’ve seen the world !!

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    Mute John Williams
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    Jan 7th 2014, 7:54 PM

    I know I’m a pure child sure that’s me all out!

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    Mute Taghash Fortwitte
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    Jan 9th 2014, 12:32 AM

    Marc you are nearly right. You should have said Irish because born in Northern Ireland. Irish embraces Northern and Southern Irish but they are all Irish. As regards passports ; there is no such thing as a British passport. Britain is not a passport issuing country. People in Britain get passports from the UK which is actually called The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. UK passports are given to the British who live in Britain and to the Irish who live in Northern Ireland.

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    Mute Neil Richardson
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    Jan 6th 2014, 4:59 PM

    Seeing similar erosion of politics in the states where the die-hard tea party supporters are forcing Republicans to operate under increasingly extreme policies. The vocal minority will always carry more sway than the majority who just want to get on with their daily lives in peace.

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    Mute Cillian_Durkin
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    Jan 6th 2014, 7:08 PM

    Unionists leaders live in fear of being told the “reek of Mass” or are a “Lundy” or an “taig lover”.

    How do you reconcile and bring on a political grouping whose whole political identity and culture is based on being superior to the natives.

    When being an Orange Man meant exclusive jobs, special treatment by the state, being in the in crowd and all enforced by a police force that could kill with impunity those who objected.

    Now that that is been taken away and all are equal the Unionist identity will collapse as quickly as the Afrikaner Supremacist identity did in Post-Apartheid South Africa.

    The Kaffirs aren’t lying down anymore, here or there.

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    Mute Ken Mitchell
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    Jan 6th 2014, 8:14 PM

    You hit the nail on the head there. The problem in the states and in the north is that there are too many ” safe” seats meaning the only rivals the incumbents have are the populist radicals of their own political persuasion, be it tea party or conservative unionists.

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    Mute Gerard Tuohy
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    Jan 6th 2014, 9:48 PM

    cillian you are the man !!!!!

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    Mute Brian Ward
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    Jan 6th 2014, 5:49 PM

    Lets get something clear here. the DUP kicked off the “fleg protest” by printing off leaflets in the Alliance Party colours and distributing them in marginal seat areas so as to get more votes for the DUP. That back fired with attacks on the Alliance Party and it’s people and was used by the local UDA/UVF to consolidate their position. The UDA wants more “community projects” in the area so they can scam money of them and seeing as a few days rioting in the past got them that, they decided to carry on with the usual tactics.

    The DUP opened up a Pandora’s Box which has been hijacked by our old friend Willie Frazer and Jamie Bryson, those 2 intellectual representatives of Loyalism/Unionism. I can’t wait to see how this turns out what with Unionists/Loyalists having to come to terms with their days of superiority over.

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    Mute Cillian_Durkin
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    Jan 6th 2014, 7:50 PM

    No one has yet pointed out to Unionists that the agreements made in the last 20 years are legally binding documents and registered International Treaties.

    An illegal squat in Twadell or having DUP Ministers raising hands with Loyalists paramilitaries or Orange Men rioting is not going to change it one thing.

    Reality is a freight train that is going to leave Loyalism is ribbons.

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    Mute James Buchanan
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    Jan 6th 2014, 7:59 PM

    Cillian I asked you if you think the Irish tri colour should be flying on Belfast city hall.

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    Mute Marc
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    Jan 6th 2014, 8:01 PM

    Only when the majority vote for a United Ireland. Both should fly over city hall today. Keep you all happy.

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    Mute Cillian_Durkin
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    Jan 6th 2014, 8:09 PM

    Yes, it should fly on Stormont as well but it would have to fly along side the UJ as well.

    That is what was agreed and we both have to go along with that. It is both flags and symbols or neither.

    Over 95% of symbols and emblems in the corridors of power are from the Unionist tradition and often very militant or divisive ones.

    Shared futures means that the Fleg is only the start of it.

    Both sides have equal cake or no one does.

    Did any Unionist read the Good Friday Agreement

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    Mute James Buchanan
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    Jan 6th 2014, 8:18 PM

    So if there is ever a united Ireland Cillian I take it you’ll happily see the union flag flying on government buildings all over Ireland, yes?

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    Mute Cillian_Durkin
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    Jan 6th 2014, 8:20 PM

    Though if it flies on your house James I’d be willing to let it slide on City Hall.

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    Mute Henry Hughes
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    Jan 6th 2014, 8:21 PM

    Marc,, When the majority vote for a united Ireland, The only flag that should fly over Belfast should be the flag of our country, The Tri colour

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    Mute Ciaran Purdy
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    Jan 6th 2014, 8:23 PM

    You are a moron

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    Mute James Buchanan
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    Jan 6th 2014, 8:24 PM

    I’m not the flag flying type Cillian, it seems to bother you more than me and im interested to get into your head and understand the mindset.

    As I said earlier I wasnt even aware the flag flew everyday from city hall.

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    Mute James Buchanan
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    Jan 6th 2014, 8:26 PM

    Whens this happening Henry?

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    Mute Henry Hughes
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    Jan 6th 2014, 8:47 PM

    There Will be a united Ireland in the near future, That’s a Certainty .
    The tri Colour will fly over the City hall in Belfast, That’s a Certainty.
    And a greyhound will win next years greyhound derby, That’s a Certainty.

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    Mute James Buchanan
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    Jan 6th 2014, 8:54 PM

    Fair enough Henry. You’d have more credibility if you backed up your points with facts though.

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    Mute Cillian_Durkin
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    Jan 6th 2014, 9:07 PM

    No, the UJ will never fly over all Ireland again.

    If as part of a settlement in a United Ireland, which will be federal for the North, then maybe the UJ would still fly up on City hall with the Triclour, to reflect the Unionist heritage.

    What the peace process is doing is preparing for an North that is highly devolved but in a federal Irish structure and with Britain giving it alimony for a few decades and thanking God that it is finally free of the mess it made in Ireland and has no interest in now.

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    Mute James Buchanan
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    Jan 6th 2014, 9:16 PM

    So you will happily see the tri colour fly now over city hall which is in a part of the UK but will never accept the union flag flying from your buildings in a united Ireland, is that accurate?

    Your stance seems to be a selfish one.

    You expect the tri colour which is a foreign flag to fly in the UK but you’d reject the union flag (which will also be a foreign flag) flying in a united Ireland.

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    Mute Cillian_Durkin
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    Jan 6th 2014, 9:28 PM

    Legally the Tri-colour can fly over City hall and Stormont right now if it is pushed for in Court, this is what was agreed in internationally recognized treaties.

    I didn’t say that I oppose the UJ flying in the North in a re-united Ireland. Like now, it would probably be deemed to have same right as the Tricolour unless new agreement said otherwise and I can’t see anyone doing that.

    Why would it fly in Kerry or Galway when it is not a desire of even a small minority there or called for by anyone.

    Legally

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    Mute James Buchanan
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    Jan 6th 2014, 9:34 PM

    The tri colour cant be flown legally in NI, it flies in republican ghettos but thats the only place it’ll be, it has no legal or official standing. If such a move could be pursued in court then believe me SF and the SDLP would be trying it years ago.

    I dont want the union flag to fly in Galway or Kerry, i’m just using your logic about foreign flags flying in certain jurisdictions. Kerry and Galway or Dublin for that matter will never be a part of the UK so the UK flag will never fly in it, the same way Belfast will never be part of a united Ireland so the tri colour will never fly in it. Simple logic Cillian.

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    Mute James Buchanan
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    Jan 6th 2014, 9:37 PM

    Goodnight people.

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    Mute Gerard Tuohy
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    Jan 6th 2014, 9:52 PM

    see james you forget one little thing in all your endless rambles and rants…..you are in IRELAND and one day it will be united,it has already begun,unification by degrees !!!

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    Mute Cillian_Durkin
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    Jan 6th 2014, 10:04 PM

    James.

    Under the Good Friday Agreement and St. Andrews it does have the same rights and if a Law in Westminister says otherwise, which it does then it is contravening that agreement and has no standing.

    It’s all softly, softly James and no frightening court battles to spook Unionism. That would really rattle the cages.

    Sleep well and dream of fluffy green clouds. ;)

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    Mute James Buchanan
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    Jan 7th 2014, 9:29 AM

    The tri colour has no legal standing in NI, the GFA does not mention anything about it either.

    Your bluff has just been called Cillian.

    PS Slept well enough, no green clouds though, just blue skies AKA reality.

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    Mute Bernard
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    Jan 7th 2014, 11:40 AM

    Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. Most people in NI wish it remains so. The flag of the UK is the Union Flag. By rights it should be flown proudly 365 days a year. Concessions were made so as not to offend those Irish/British citizens living in NI who wish to live in the Irish Republic.
    With a “united Ireland” further away than ever, maybe it’s time for both communities to respect their different cultures, but get behind a united Northern Ireland, proudly Irish, proudly part of the UK.

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    Mute Gerard Tuohy
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    Jan 7th 2014, 4:34 PM

    bernard that is just pure scutter,how on earth do you know what the majority of people want on this island ?? was there a referendum i missed ??? see you miss the simple yet hugely important fact that its our island,so everyone on the island has a say,not just the good people of the north (which it has never been put to vote in any case )

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    Mute Matt
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    Jan 6th 2014, 5:06 PM

    They have to go speak to the Orange Order and UVF terrorists first martin.

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    Mute Brian Ward
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    Jan 6th 2014, 5:51 PM

    That should be easy as you will usually find that they are all in the same group.

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    Mute Cillian_Durkin
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    Jan 6th 2014, 6:41 PM

    Didn’t the DUP get the leader of the Orange Order in Belfast to take part.

    The Orange Order and the Loyalist paramilitaries have always had the ultimate say over what parties like the DUP/UUP say and do.

    More so now than ever a a decade ago.

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    Mute John Lodge
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    Jan 6th 2014, 5:55 PM

    It’s about time the Unionists grew up. Why do they have to be so confrontational, awkward and sheer bloody minded? (That’s a rhetorical question by the way). Why do they continue to “march” wearing bowlers and orange aprons other than to be provocative? And no, I am not a Republican and yes I am a nominal Protestant. Perhaps the Republicans could help by not constantly reminding the world of the crap cards that thought they were dealt by the British government. For the love of their fellow man, haters need to stop hating, it shortens their lives as makes them bitter and twisted. Folk memory can be a real curse.

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    Mute James Buchanan
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    Jan 6th 2014, 6:09 PM

    SF and the SDLP started all this mess dont forget, they decided to bring down a flag that most of Belfast probably didnt give a damn about anyway, it only came to prominence when it was removed. Anytime I was in Belfast I didnt even notice the thing,

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    Mute John Lacey
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    Jan 6th 2014, 6:37 PM

    James sometimes i read your comments and think are you serious or just trolling but sadly i know your sort is deadly serious and you actually don’t realize how stupid you sound.

    First of all what about this shared future? You know as well as me the UJ flag is used as a tribal symbol by Loyalists you just have to look at the housing estates like dogs pissing on a lamppost marking their territories.

    If in say 20 years time and nationalists do become a majority and vote to replace the UJ with the tri colour and democracy wins and the tricolour gets raised above stormont how would you feel then?

    Remember this was only Belfast City council and the flag was going to fly in line with the rest of the UK and look at how the extreme Loyalists reacted.

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    Mute Ryan Kelly
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    Jan 6th 2014, 6:49 PM

    James there were riots over the flag being taken down.

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    Mute Cillian_Durkin
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    Jan 6th 2014, 6:50 PM

    If Unionism does not have supremacy and control, then what is it but a collection of people that the English call Paddies, walking around a field playing Irish tunes on button accordions.

    Unionists are as happy to argue and fight with Britain as they are with their Irish neighbours, when Britain does things that affect their supremacy and control over the “natives”.

    Remove the rubbing of taigs faces in the mud, then what is their left?

    Nothing!

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    Mute James Buchanan
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    Jan 6th 2014, 7:29 PM

    @ John

    The ordinary nationalists on the street didnt give a damn about a flag flying over city hall, SF and the SDLP made it into a big deal. It hasnt furthered the lives of either community, people are crying out for jobs, theres shops closing left right and centre, factories closing their doors and yet this is the best SF and the SDLP can come up with to help society!! We all know this was just an attempt by them parties to drive the boot into unionists, it worked.

    I wasnt even aware the union flag flew every day on city hall, I thought it was akin to Stormont in all honesty. I said on here from day one that if they took it down altogether I wouldnt give two fcuks. If say in 20 years there is a united Ireland then i’ve no doubt that your side will fly the tri colour from all public buildings regardless what my community thinks, you know rightly you would do it.

    And no i’m not a troll, i’m just a unionist with a run of the mill unionist opinion. You likely dont like that but thats what I am.

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    Mute James Buchanan
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    Jan 6th 2014, 7:34 PM

    @ Ryan

    I’m aware there were riots over the flag. Would there have been riots if the flag had been left alone? SF and the SDLP made this flag into a big issue. If it was still flying there daily now it wouldnt cause the nationalist community to melt and im sure they wouldnt give a toss anyway, its not as if there were mass protests from Belfast nationalists to have it removed. Theres bigger issues to worry about.

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    Mute Cillian_Durkin
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    Jan 6th 2014, 7:41 PM

    Belfast’s electorate voted for parties that agreed that shared spaces should not have exclusive symbols of one side or other, could have both, in line with legally binding agreements that are now law.

    The designated days was a compromise

    If the Union Jack returns then legally it will have to be flying beside the Tri-Colour.

    I have yet to see a political commentator who does not agree that Sinn Féin and the SDLP will substantially increase their representation in Belfast this year.

    So the public in Belfast are backing this.

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    Mute James Buchanan
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    Jan 6th 2014, 7:47 PM

    Take the union flag down altogether if it pleases you Cillian, I have bigger things to worry about.

    Do you think the tri colour should fly on city hall?

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    Mute Marc
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    Jan 6th 2014, 7:51 PM

    Get yourself a job for starters James. How you live on £73 a week they get on the dole is crazy. Keep yourself busy, you wont have time to be online saying nasty comments about the Irish. Hate is a horrible thing to carry round.

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    Mute Whelo1509
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    Jan 6th 2014, 8:09 PM

    Do you know what an apostrophe is? Brutal grammar.

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    Mute Paul Sweeney
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    Jan 6th 2014, 9:40 PM

    To be honest James you are right, I truly couldn’t have given a balls about the Union Jack over city hall but after all the carry on by loyalists last year I’d have a hardened view on it now. With regard to flying tricolours all over the 6 counties in a United Ireland, it wouldn’t happen, we’re not going to rub anyone’s nose in it, look where it leads, nationalists have experienced the shitty end of the stick but I think we have the wit to know when enough is enough.

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    Mute Cillian_Durkin
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    Jan 6th 2014, 10:15 PM

    Good point Paul.

    There is no desire to replicate the abuse that was done to Nationalists for so long.

    As for flags, look at most nationalist areas they have very few flags where as profoundly insecure Loyalist areas have every kerb painted and 4-5 flags on every pole.

    What makes full independence as certainty in time is that institutions desire more power, even Unionists will not turn down more control of the North and control. Which also means a further breaking of the link. Interests will diverge.

    This also applies to Catalonia and Scotland.

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    Mute Ryan Kelly
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    Jan 7th 2014, 12:25 AM

    James there was a vote to remove it.

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    Mute Ryan Kelly
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    Jan 7th 2014, 12:31 AM

    You also said “they decided to bring down a flag that most of Belfast probably didn’t give a damn about anyway”. If they didn’t give a “damn”, then the unionists wouldn’t have rioted when it was taken down.

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    Mute Mad Hatter
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    Jan 7th 2014, 8:07 AM

    @ James. Might I suggest a new flag for all when Ireland is unified by consent in the next 20-30 years. I’d go with the flag of St Patrick, white background and red X. It’s the Ireland bit in the Union Jack already so unionist shouldn’t be repulsed. The nationalist identify with St Patrick as a potent Irish symbol. Everyone’s a winner.

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    Mute James Buchanan
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    Jan 7th 2014, 9:31 AM

    I would agree with that, I just dont believe a united Ireland will ever happen. I would agree on a new flag now for NI.

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    Mute James Buchanan
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    Jan 7th 2014, 9:31 AM

    Ryan it only became an issue when it was removed

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    Mute James Buchanan
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    Jan 7th 2014, 9:33 AM

    Paul there will never be a united Ireland but if you boys had the chance there would be a tri colour and only a tri colour flying from every public building in Ireland, just show a bit of honesty there.

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    Mute Whelo1509
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    Jan 6th 2014, 5:19 PM

    Take a giant angle-grinder, cut the 6 counties free along the border and let both sides (Republican and Unionist) float off into the North Atlantic. I’m not political, we just don’t need any of them in our otherwise relatively peaceful country. P.S. I’ll be happy with a slim majority of thumbs-up on this one!

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    Mute Johnny Reynolds
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    Jan 6th 2014, 5:31 PM

    Maybe but it would still be nice to have ALL of OUR island. Doubt it’ll ever happen tho, it’s a way of life for some up there

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    Mute Luke Mac an Bháird
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    Jan 6th 2014, 5:33 PM

    If you’re not political, then why are you commenting on a political article?

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    Mute Eileen Roche
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    Jan 6th 2014, 5:45 PM

    Whelo, your attitude is what helped start a lot of the “Troubles” .The south just did not care about what was happening to the Nationalist people in the north for decades, second class citizens they really were. You say ” I’m not political ” but you sound like a lot I could mention with this attitude in our own south Government, ” I’m all right Jack…bugger you “

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    Mute Whelo1509
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    Jan 6th 2014, 5:52 PM

    I’m commenting on “sick of hearing about the place that is NI and all its hatred and negativity”, nothing more.

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    Mute Robert Loughran
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    Jan 6th 2014, 5:57 PM

    You free staters cut the north loose many years ago and watched as a large proportion of the population were angle ground. Now your proposing having another go…shameful!

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    Mute John Lodge
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    Jan 6th 2014, 5:58 PM

    Nobody seems to want the six counties, the South or the UK. Britain can’t afford to keep subsidising them for you much longer surely?

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    Mute Billy Kavanagh
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    Jan 6th 2014, 7:12 PM

    Wait until all those Catholics outbreed the unionists and will then become the majority. No more fixing constituencies. Jesus, what will the Unionists do then? Isn’t it a bitch that Rhodesia is gone. Ian Smith would have accepted you with open arms

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    Mute James Buchanan
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    Jan 6th 2014, 7:35 PM

    Great strategy there Billy

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    Mute Tom Hara
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    Jan 6th 2014, 7:37 PM

    Why dont you just let yourself go adrift into the Atlantic where hopefully thirst or hunger will finish you off

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    Mute declan hegarty
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    Jan 6th 2014, 7:53 PM

    How’s the majority going?

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    Mute Shelly Levine
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    Jan 6th 2014, 6:00 PM

    Sounds like another implausible hollywood film: Diplomat & harvard prof try to negotiate reasonably with local rednecks who like nothing better than a good ol time flying johnny reb, intimidation, racist attacks and harking back to the days when them lower folk knew their place. Could’t happen in real life eh?

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    Mute Patrick Lyons
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    Jan 6th 2014, 5:14 PM

    If only everybody was as reasonable as McGuinness. On the other hand it appears to be reasonable to murder people by the thousand if 1) you do it in the past and 2) if you just say ‘sorry about that chief’.

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    Mute Just Chief Now
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    Jan 6th 2014, 5:23 PM

    Me? What did I do now?

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    Mute seamus mcdermott
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    Jan 6th 2014, 5:23 PM

    Patrick Lying:

    “……murder people by the thousand (sic)….”

    Can you name one or two, so we’ll have an idea what you’re talking about? Who, exactly did Martin McGuinness murder?

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    Mute Were Jammin
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    Jan 6th 2014, 5:29 PM

    ” it appears to be reasonable to murder people by the thousand if 1) you do it in the past ”

    Paddy too busy spitting his orange bile to cop onto the stupidity of that comment.

    Unless he’s contesting that the IRA nicked a load of Deloreans from the factory in Dunmurray and fitted them with flux capacitors….

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    Mute BPA Free Paper Rolls
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    Jan 6th 2014, 5:30 PM

    Patrick Lyons is troll who has a few accounts. I was once told by a well educated man ” Never give an idiot an audience , it’s unfair on them “

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    Mute Gearóid Ó Murchadha
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    Jan 6th 2014, 6:22 PM

    What if you murder them in the future and don’t say sorry?!

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    Mute Ink Toner
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    Jan 6th 2014, 6:31 PM

    Tool….

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    Mute Billy Kavanagh
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    Jan 6th 2014, 7:08 PM

    He went to a pub and he told the barman “jasus i’d murder a Guinness right now! ha

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    Mute Billy Kavanagh
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    Jan 6th 2014, 7:09 PM

    And go to confession and say sorry to God too!

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    Mute Tom Hara
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    Jan 6th 2014, 7:38 PM

    Names please…. have you passed this information to the authorities?

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    Mute Gerard Tuohy
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    Jan 6th 2014, 10:13 PM

    i love that quote,its going straight into my book of quotes

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    Mute Gerry McNally
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    Jan 6th 2014, 6:25 PM

    It’s a crying shame. It really makes me sad that they cannot reach a compromise and move on in a compromised manner. So much has been achieved to date but when a wound festers for too long it normally results in a bad infection.

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    Mute Ryleigh kane
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    Jan 6th 2014, 6:12 PM

    Dear Martin.In case you did not notice. Ye are all loyalists.Ye are all loyal to your own cause and political beliefs.Move away from the old tags and see this world through different eyes and maybe,just maybe you will find a way.

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    Mute Cillian_Durkin
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    Jan 6th 2014, 6:52 PM

    WTF.

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    Mute Ryleigh kane
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    Jan 6th 2014, 7:13 PM

    WTF>>>WTF

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    Mute Kevin Cooney
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    Jan 6th 2014, 5:31 PM

    Pot and kettle comes to mind.

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    Mute Cillian_Durkin
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    Jan 6th 2014, 6:56 PM

    They accepted a deal that is not so great for them, when they could push in the courts and have equal rights straight away.

    Easy for SF and the Nationalist community to do that when demographics show their voter base hitting majority numbers in the next decade and increasing there after to about 60% of the vote.

    Unionism is so stuck in its obsession and hatred of Irish taigs that it cannot bring itself to reject the extremists in its ranks but instead lets them set the tone and policy line.

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    Mute Mark Malee
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    Jan 6th 2014, 9:22 PM

    James

    Let the love into the heart!!

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    Mute Billy Kavanagh
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    Jan 6th 2014, 7:04 PM

    Being born and raised catholic in Dublin,what has always struck as odd on the subject of the North is this;
    Catholics up North go on and about Ireland. So why don’t they just move to the south? Oh I get it, the North has better social services, better education and better medical than the south. So hate England but spend and receive its pounds so that you can be that fireside republican.

    Now the unionists are Protestants and feel that it is their calling to goad the disgruntled catholic I profiled above, with Orangemen marches and their up to recent apartheid against the catholic minority. If you love England so much why don’t you pack up and go live where your loyalty lies? Oh I forgot, like your catholic enemy, you prefer the benefits in the North than in the UK The great news is that you guys all deserve each other, and if there was someway to just dig a moat and separate you from Ireland we would all be better off.

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    Mute Cillian_Durkin
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    Jan 6th 2014, 7:12 PM

    To be very blunt but a lot of the North is 20 years behind even the poorer parts of Ireland or Britain.

    Why would Irish people in the North move, most of them can trace their identity and roots there well over a thousand years.

    Your attitude Brian is a very large part of why the problems went on for so long in the North. People like you wanted to hide from life and let people up there be burnt out of their thousands.

    You played your part in the mess.

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    Mute Gerry McNally
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    Jan 6th 2014, 7:21 PM

    Billy that is the most idiotic comment I have ever read, pathetic really. As someone who was horned and lived in the north for 30 years and who has lived in the south for the last 10 years I disagree with your assessment but I will share mine. I now can walk in to any pub in any village where I live. I don’t have to go to my local tribal one. People don’t turn and look every time the pub door opens. When I walk in to a strange pub or social venue, total strangers actually talk to me. Religion is never mentioned. The only flags I see are those of local football teams during championship season……..and you know what. This is how it should be. I grew up in a life in the north that I thought was normal. It was normal to be segregated so we didn’t bloody kill each other. In a society that it was important to know what religion people were before you spoke to them. Well that’s bull crap. It’s wrong. It has to change. Compromise is the only way. The grassroots want this on both sides. Isolate the dissidents on both sides. SF have upset a lot of their old school boys but most of them support what is now, the loyalists need to do the same. Times are changing, move on.

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    Mute Robert Loughran
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    Jan 6th 2014, 7:39 PM

    Ignorance on steroids.

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    Mute Robert Loughran
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    Jan 6th 2014, 7:39 PM

    Ignorance on steroids.

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    Mute Tom Hara
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    Jan 6th 2014, 7:39 PM

    Very well said…

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    Mute Billy Kavanagh
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    Jan 6th 2014, 8:18 PM

    Asking two Irishmen, one unionist and on catholic,to compromise is like asking an Israeli to treat a Palestinian with love and humanity. When we were growing up the repressed catholic society of the south, both unionists and republicans in the north suckled liberally on the English nipple and enjoyed a better quality of life than we did. Even though the unionists practiced their unique English apartheid on the Catholics at the end of the day you all deserve each other. I will make a prediction; the vast majority of the south could give a damn about the North. And now the white is a minority in the UK, their citizenry loathes you all as nothing more than leeches on their economy. What has happened is that evolution has kicked in and you are now a distinct genus of northern Irish. God forbid you wake up and realize that’s the case. Wailing and gnashing of teeth will ensue!

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    Mute AICS (Steve Tracey)
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    Jan 6th 2014, 8:27 PM

    Gerry,
    Possibly and probably the sanest comment I’ve hears on this subject for a long time. Well said

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    Mute Gerry McNally
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    Jan 6th 2014, 8:42 PM

    @ AICS…..I seen enough fighting and hatred growing up in the north. I don’t want that for my kids or their’s for that matter. It has to stop. What they need is new traditions, new things to celebrate, even things as simple as the community games that they have hear in the south would make a difference. The children cannot be subjected to this blind hatred anymore as all they are doing is nurturing the next generation of bigots. It shameful, disgusting, intolerable.

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    Mute Pádraic Ó Braonáin
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    Jan 6th 2014, 11:29 PM

    Billy Kavanagh, your untrue words “the vast majority of the south couldnt give a damn about the North” sounds so Fine Gael – it’s the attitude of the classic true blue Irish traitor that has been a curse on this land throughout it’s history…….An Irish/British Unionist I could understand, and even shake hands with and do a deal – but a dirty rotten Irish traitor I could never trust..

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    Mute Paul Sweeney
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    Jan 7th 2014, 10:14 AM

    James, you boys do yourselves no favors at all… Siege mentality, negativity, anger and frustration is what loyalism is all about… You need to get over it and chill the fcuk out! Nationalism is confident and progressive and we generally don’t feel the need to plaster flags and paramilitary paraphernalia all over the show… Because we honesty don’t see the point…

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    Mute Sean Brennan
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    Jan 7th 2014, 2:12 AM

    It’s not our land that’s divided – it’s our people.

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    Mute byrondenis
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    Jan 6th 2014, 6:25 PM

    Antagonising as always

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    Mute Gushingallover
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    Jan 6th 2014, 6:14 PM

    Love-love-love this peaceful man and the way he looks after Buttons ..

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    Mute Daithi Coombes
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    Jan 7th 2014, 8:23 AM

    The issue here is not a few ‘hard-line’ mouths with too much voting stance (like the t-party, as was said in the comments).

    The issue here is segregation. A simple way to prove this is to compare the Orange Order in Canada, or else where, with the north. So asking these questions: Do the OO in Canada organise to burn communities out of their homes? Do the OO in Canada want to take over government and make a WASP only society? So why do they in Ireland? What evils does segregation by race or religion create.

    Here’s some facts: There is more segregation in the North than during the sectarian war. There is more sectarian tension in the north than during the sectarian war (both these come from Workers Union’s and foreign observers). The north is run by a foreign dictator (not foreign to 50% of ppl there, but unelected dictator only accountable to rulers that seem to want segregation and sectarianism). The puppet administration in storemont is based purely on segregation, it is there to solidify segregation, not eliminate it. England has 400 years experience of colonial rule – my conclusion is: I’m fairly certain that they know what segregation will do, and I’m fairly certain their “plan” is working. I can only speculate on what their end goal is.

    And to all those that might believe in something as idiotic as a ‘UK’, the ‘U’ is false. England 1st, Scotland 2nd, Wales 3rd and NI “paddy last”. This is the logic behind me saying that the only solution for NI is the removal of Englands rule.

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    Mute James Buchanan
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    Jan 7th 2014, 9:39 AM

    No surprise that your post ended with the usual republican battle cry. If you think that alienating ovee half of NI’s population just to please its minority is the answer then you are deluded. Nobody in NI gives a damn about a united Ireland.

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    Mute Ryan Kelly
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    Jan 7th 2014, 11:54 PM

    James, it didn’t seem like “a big deal” because the unionists were happy that the flag was up. Though because they cared about it being.g up they rioted when it was taken it down. So yes, it was a big deal to unionists.

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    Mute byrondenis
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    Jan 7th 2014, 8:12 AM

    If mcgunness was trapped in a fire, what would be your favourite popcorn?

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    Mute James Buchanan
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    Jan 7th 2014, 9:40 AM

    Popcorn soaked in petrol

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    Mute Henry Hughes
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    Jan 7th 2014, 1:16 PM

    James have a Snickers .

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    Mute Mark Malee
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    Jan 6th 2014, 8:37 PM

    See what you started here Ronan!!!

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    Mute Fraser Munro
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    Apr 15th 2014, 3:01 PM

    For fuks sake grow up , forgive and move on. Yes for independence for Scotland.

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