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TWELVE INDEPENDENT MEMBERS of the Seanad are each being given an annual allowance of over €23,000 – a payment one TD has described as one of the “best-kept secrets” in Irish public life.
The Public Accounts Committee was this morning told that as many as 17 members of the Seanad could be benefitting from the payment, which is given to independent members to make up for the absence of the support of any full political party.
A spokesperson for the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform has this afternoon confirmed, however, that 12 members are in receipt of the payment which is worth €23,383 per year.
The committee heard that independent senators receiving the allowance – known informally as the ‘party leaders’ allowance’ – are not required to account for how they spend it, though they are not permitted to use it for electoral purposes.
Fianna Fáil member of the committee Seán Fleming described the payment as “the best kept secret in public life in Ireland, to my mind”.
Seven of the Senators receiving the payment are independent nominees of the Taoiseach, while the other five are the independent members elected through the two University panels.
The five University senators benefitting from the payment are David Norris, Feargal Quinn, Rónán Mullen, John Crown and Sean Barrett.
The seven independent nominees who also receive it are Martin McAleese, Fiach Mac Conghail, Eamon Coghlan, Katherine Zappone, Mary Ann O’Brien, Marie Louise O’Donnell and Jillian van Turnhout.
The other four Taoiseach’s nominees – Fine Gael’s Jim D’Arcy, and the Labour trio of Aideen Hayden, Lorraine Higgins and Mary Moran – were appointed in their capacities as party members and so not qualify for the payment. The other University senator, Ivana Bacik, is the leader of the Labour delegation in the Seanad and is also not entitled to the payment.
Independent TDs are entitled to a similar payment worth about €42,000 per year.
While payments are also paid in respect of TDs and Senators who are members of political parties, that money is paid directly to the party itself, on a rate which changes depending on how many members each party has.
Spending of that money is audited by the Standards in Public Office Commission in the case of political parties – but not in the case of independent TDs and Senators.
This morning’s meeting separately heard that closing the Seanad – as is proposed by the government, in a referendum to be held later this year – would result in direct savings of a little over €9 million a year.
While there would be indirect savings of €13.3 million, these might not be realised as staff currently tending to Seanad duties would be deployed elsewhere within the Oireachtas.
What’s new! If they up this allowance they’ll just make up another one!
Yeah, John Crown, the hospital consultant needs it badly. those hospital consultants are so strapped for cash!
In John crowns defense, he did say a few months ago he’d give his senate salary to cancer charities, saying it wasn’t ethical to get two state salaries.
ffs now end stop on the gravy train,,,and they wonder why the public are cynical
Im not a member of a party either,am i eligible?
Why does any of them T.D. or Senator receive expenses. They applied for a job. Were successful and knew the salary attached to that job. They should live within their salary just all us ordinary Joe Soaps. Pay for their own laundry, rent, phone etc. we all do.
Agreed maura, if you or I were to work in dublin we would be expected to pay for our digs etc. Somehow when i suggest this people want to thumb it down. But yes why not pay for themselves. Not that im advocating if same for representatives who live next door to work, but partial subsidising would be better than Full subside.
I’m so surprised that this ‘secret’ didn’t come to light when David Norris’ finances were scrutinised during Aras 11.
I’m confused, if it’s supposed to be compensation for having no party support, then why aren’t they allowed use it for electoral purposes? Wouldn’t that not be the main reason to be using it? Or am I misunderstanding what ‘electoral purposes’ means?
7 of endas cronies get this….jobs for the boys…nothing changes …more shite from the eejit kenny….total bulshitter and people voted for him….
It’s intended to ‘fill in the gaps’ for services that would usually be supplied by a party. Most parties have central press offices who can handle PR for a TD or Senator, or who can use professional legal types to help draft new legislation. Independent members don’t have those luxuries so they’re given this extra payment to try and cover their own costs.
@Gavan Reilly
I agree, however some of these expenses could be subsumed into their existing salary. Also they could enlist the talents of students in college to assist with research etc, would do away with exorbitant advisor costs or increases that Enda sought for his own!!!!!!!!
The sooner the senate is abolished the better, pure waste of time And money.
Sorry, merely abolishing something doesnt mean that the system will work better. If anything in our political system they will reallocate the funds saved to some other quango. My argument is that cutting something wont necessarily make things work. We need to work differently to get better outcomes. The savings will amount to little in the bigger scheme of this, see my post below, it gives some thoughts to this,
http://alanmcmenamin.wordpress.com/2012/01/06/political-reform-some-brief-suggestions/
much as I agree with the sentiment of your comment, I’d be more terrified of not having some stopgap for the Gov. Maybe the Seanad should only consist of those who have proven themselves in the real world;
@Sheila Murphy
I dont disagree the Seanad could be individuals of non party allegiance that could be watchers or the peoples guards for the want of a better phrase.
If we should abolish one of the houses of the Oireachtas because it costs too much money, then logic dictates it should be the Dáil, which costs the tax payer much more than the Seanad. As the article above states for example, an independent senator gets €23,383 as their leader’s payment, whereas the same payment for an independent TD is almost twice that. Either the Dáil goes to save more money, or it’s not justified to abolish key organs of the legislature for cost purposes.
Ireland best kept secret is using opinions in law since 1922 to destroy generations of Irish peoples lives and those employed in law knew about it.
Alot of your posts refer to “opinions” in law any chance you’d explain for the lay person what you’re on about?
Please back up what you say! I’m not implying you’re wrong, but there’s not enough information to agree or disagree..
@John Conniffe and Norman Hunter: If you want to get up to dubious accounting, if not criminal behaviour you are always better off hiding the details of the crime from authority or prying eyes. Opinion are the best way to hide the details of any given situation.
In law people usually question the evidence but opinions hide the evidence and pervert the course of justice. Opinions also inhibit your ability to petition domestic or international courts because you cannot get the details. A police force would normally pursue evidence how do they pursue opinions hiding the evidence. Everything about law is details and evidence, not opinions.
You cannot keep proper records with opinions. There are billions of pieces of paperwork produced in this country in the last 90 years. Who would look back through time looking for opinions as opposed to evidence.
People in general do not actually have opinions. They have lies, figments of there imaginations, beliefs, delusions, presumptions, assumptions, guesses, wish full thinking, deceit, dishonesty etc. You can disguise an awful lot of things as an opinion which creates total confusion.
The only real use of opinions in law is to commit crime, hide the evidence, circumvent the rules and avoid prosecution. The only way to get opinions into is to falsify the rule books of Ireland since 1922.
In the last 14 years successive so called Irish governments have been using opinions to defraud social welfare recipients to hide there economic mistakes. You have to be very careful when untrained public servants have been let loose with opinions and no training on law.
If you want more specific details of who is getting access to opinions the details are on http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/searchall.html
Hope this helps clarify the situation
It doesn’t. Your post just talks more about opinions and as a result clarifies nothing. You still haven’t explained what the “opinions” you are talking about are and what they signify, so I for one am none the wiser. If what you are talking about is our common law system, then the body of judge-made law or judicial precedent that you are referring to has been building since long before 1922. If you aren’t, I have no idea what you are talking about.
@Ultan Quirke: You need to read up on law a little more, which is why I supply the website.
The purpose of rule books is to obey them.
Can you obey law with a lie disguised as an opinion?
Can you apply law correctly with a lie disguised as an opinion?
If you think I am wrong then can you explain how people obey law or apply law correctly with any of the following :- lies, figments of there imaginations, beliefs, delusions, presumptions, assumptions, guesses, wish full thinking, deceit, dishonesty etc.
For you it might be a case of who should get access to opinions or whom you might trust. Is any of the following trust worthy? Hitler, Geobells, Dr Mengele, Dr Shipman, Berni Madoff, The Mafia, Klu Klux Klan, Charles Haughey. The list could be endless.
In time if we get a court system that works on the basis of reading, writing, arithmetic and evidence then the truth might come out. In the mean time be careful of those who use opinions to keep you in ignorance.
A little confused but when was the last time anybody was jailed for FRAUD in this country also nearly all the judges in this country have been appointed by the fianna failures
If we get rid of the senate then why not introduce one aspect of the Swiss system. Any citizen gathering more than a certain amount of signatures, 100’000 within 18 months in the case of Switzerland, can have any law put to a full referendum of the people. That way the people would act as a balance against the politicians.
Agreed Mark Andrew a balanced common sense approach.
I agree. We should try more direct democracy.
This is all hidden an all the people on this island scraping trying to make ends meet . I am disgusted its not before it’s time it was abolished ,it would make you sick.Its no wonder people want to be politicians,grab grab money that’s what it’s down to live the good life on the back of the tax, payer.
Why is it that Politicians always have their noses in the trough?
A lot of them are Multi-Millionaires and they say that they are in the Seanad for the good of the Country…….Yes and pigs will fly!!
Is that “allowance” taxed as Income? surely it is. and is that on top of their Salary as Senators? plus their salaries from other jobs….e.g. Mary Louise O’Donnell works for RTE.
Its Tax free!
Do you know that for sure?
I would be very surprised and disappointed to hear that Prof John Crown is taking the party leader’s allowance, as he is previously on the record as donating his salary to cancer research.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/crown-donates-65600-seanad-wage-to-cancer-research-2871894.html
We covered that particularly story too – http://www.thejournal.ie/senator-donating-entire-seanad-salary-to-cancer-research-222630-Sep2011/.
To be fair, just because the payment is being ‘drawn down’, it doesn’t mean he’s personally using it – he could be putting it to other use. He’s also taking €1,350 per month in parliamentary expenses but using that to pay the wages of a researcher.
Have you asked him directly about this?
If it’s being drawn down, then it’s probably going to charity with the rest of his salary, no?
In which case, it’s a bit misleading to lump him in with the others above.
The names we list above were supplied directly from the Department of Public Expenditure – the list only says which members are in receipt of the payment. With respect, trying to account for what each individual member does with that cash is a little beyond the scope of the article.
It might be worth pointing out that this cash isn’t a ‘wage’ – it’s a payment for what you might call ‘political expenses’. It’s not intended to go straight into a member’s pocket, but rather to help them do their jobs. In that light, if John Crown (or anyone else) is using it to assist them in their job, they’re merely doing precisely what they’re supposed to.
Well, with respect Gavan, if it’s simply a payment to help them do their jobs, then why is it ‘Ireland’s best kept secret’?
Why is it even newsworthy? You’re basically reporting that someone got paid to do their job.
Exactly. Not to mention…
- that payment was originally only for leaders of parties, as the name suggests
- first applied to Independent TDs to buy their support for the Government in 2001 or thereabouts
- so it’s basically a formalised cash-for-votes scheme, or at least it was then, but no successive Government has had the guts to get rid of it, not even this one with its famous ‘new politics’
- there is no way that Independent TDs or Independent Senators, who do less, need it.
Why? because they are individuals and there is no way that they have the same amount of expense that a party leader does.
Not to mention the fact that Independent TDs and Senators managed perfectly well without ‘party leader’s allowance’ before 2001, so they certainly should manage now, given that we’re in the middle of a recession!
@ Ciarán: I’d completely forgotten that it was an FF government who introduced, or extended rather, the payments to Jackie Healy-Rae, Mildred Fox et al. That makes the criticism today very hypocritical.
Hang on a minute this is the government you all voted for as the great white hope the answer to all our prayers you all wanted Fine Fail out so now it’s back to cribbing about this lot god what a pack of moaners us Irish are!! I don’t agree to this allowance either it’s about the size of an average salary in Ireland if your lucky to have a salary it makes no sense paying someone to be independent and acknowledge them as a one person party makes a farce of the “system” but then again we have always lived in a banana republic !!So nothing new there!
Whilst this may be deemed as negative, it really highlights the lack of reform as promised by this Government.
Enda Kenny wants the Seanad abolished which in turn means that more power is given to the Government of the day. Coupled with the fact that they wanted powers of investigation too, I have serious doubts about the integrity of our current Taoiseach. That is quite a bit of power going his way if we give it to him
Just food for thought folks, keep your eyes open at how your Government is working…
In my opinion the government isnt working too well. But i agree with your post!
The lads in the merrion hotel are running the country why do we need 166 plus the senators just let Frankfurt appoint a person to head each government dept.
Good idea or not ?
At our stage in this crises they should be voluntary, including expenses. These people say they are patriots and everything is for the good of the country – well stand up now to the plate. Rent a room and pay for it between yourselves and talk all you like. I would like them to keek the Seanad but on a cost free basis.
That would mean only those with money could represent us. Idon’t want that, jesus its bad enough as it is. I think the senad is a great idea in theory, but it has been taken over as a junket for those who lose their seat. I think as someone else said it should be a panel of ‘ experts’ from the general public, they should be elected and run the same term as the government. We could have independent experts who would oversee all the departments in government and vote on proposals. As alan said they could be the guardians of the people.
Plus I think its interesting that a fg td has come out to hang the independents out to dry without knowing if these senators are donating the money or using it to pay wages or spending it on pimping their rides and crystal….
Well said Niamh. FG are worried that independents are going to take many of their seats in the next election. Unfortunately labour are discrediting themselves from playing the cannon-fodder and doing the dirty work for the generals. :-(
I agree Frank no matter what this government does it’s the tax payer that has to cough up we should say STOP
….hammertime…
Niamh. Is that a code word to lmk the revolution has started? Where’s HQ? :D
And we would of got away with it if it wasn’t for those pesky kids!
Oh wait we are getting away with!
Oh please let us vote to dump this talking shop…….
Pa, it would be nice if dumping the Senate would solve the significant problems within the political system or even save significant money, but it wont. It may as some suggest be a start, but starting something like scraping the senate will only mask the problem. Like the Limerick Housing re-generation, bulldoze houses, oh and that right we dont have a plan now, well none that the public know of. So maybe we should consider proposals to sort this problem out before scraping anything.
I strongly believe the senate does a lot of great work that sometimes its not given credit for but unfortunately when stories like this come out you have to question its viability. Those in charge of this house have to come clean with all the costs and expenses it incurs on a yearly basis. I don’t fully blame the senators as the payment system is in place for their use. There should be a whole rethink at especially the expenses paid to senators. Just to be clear this revelation is another disgrace in the absent minded spending going on in the country today.
The Irish people said they didn’t want ivana bacik anywhere near our parliament. Gilmore in his wisdom believes he knows better than the electorate and gives her a seat in the senad.
We said no to this woman.
Actually Ivana Bacik was elected to the Seanad not appointed, elected by the rotten boroughs of the university seats but still elected.
The lads
Another set of do-gooders turn out to be not so doie and not so good after all. Why the fu*k this tiny country needs a Senate is beyond me.
@Dave
If the Seanad was reformed properly and allowed to do it’s job as opposed to being stifled by Government, their objective would be to keep checks and balances on the Government and the laws they want to implement.
If that is taken away, we in essence have a Government that can pretty do whatever it likes without being questioned. I for one do not like that idea, and yes, we should reduce the size of both along with the cost of running Government, but unfortunately we do not have a leadership or party that wants to reform.
If the salary was say €45K per year, only vouched expenses (pre-approved in advance), I would love to see which current politicians would be prepared to run for parliament with the aim of actually running a country as opposed to self interest..
Have you ever heard the people say “now we have the correct people in government”? Well, ok, you may have heard it once when Obama got elected, although, now the same people want him the hell out. The problem is not “what government” it’s “government”. A couple of hundred years ago some people realized that it is a nessesery evil, so it must be kept small and it should only protect people’s liberties and not be a “provider”. Now, however, people have become retarded and they want their government to wash their dishes, hence the problem.
Here we go again. The do-gooders are not so doie and not so good after all. Nanny state fail
The senate is just as usefully as the e-voting machine’s.Just scrap both and stop wasting taxpayers money.I think some special committee should be set up with the best minds in this country in it,Either by invite or request by the individual to the government.
No perks or no over the top pay between 10-15 max people in one room bouncing idea’s,not the biggest fan of David O’Leary but a great business mind should be their with other’s like him.We need people that live in the real world and knows what its like to ruin a successful business and create jobs.
Oops lol I meant to say Micheal O’Leary.Wouldn’t want David O’Leary pulling a leeds job on us.:)
Eugene,
a committee could be set up and act as an advisor or overseer of government. Again, merely scraping something for the sake of it wont stop the problem. We need more meaningful REAL reform or we could end up with the wrong people in the committee and who/how they are elected & at what cost not just in terms of money but democracy. e.g. who would they answer to???
@Alan
More as a advisor to the dept of jobs,enterprise and Innovation.Voted in by the dail or each party and independent group can vote in a certain amount of people depending on the size of each party.They need to think outside the box get advise from people that have the country at heart and a track record running a business.Every thing done with-in a democracy way.They need to start thinking nearly 500,000 people without a job.
@Eugene.
Sorry, i dont agree. It seem that your plan would be dependent on Parties / voted in by the Dail. That is basically the system i.e. gov parties have at their gift to nominate and select Senate representatives. So in essence we would be asking those in power currently in the dail to select for the senate. Nope, im afraid that is too similar to what we have hence we need radical reform.
http://alanmcmenamin.wordpress.com/2012/01/06/political-reform-some-brief-suggestions/
Sorry for posting this but saves me repeating myself….
Well seems that the government is twiddling the thumbs waiting until the U.S or Europe to pick up for exports.There’s no real structure in government to deal with this mess their running in circles that’s why the whole constitution need’s to be rewritten it’s well past its best before date.We need some major thinking outside the box for jobs,relying on exports all the time reminds me back in the boom years when we became too dependent on the housing market.
Have the senate directly elected by all the people every 3 years. This will put pressure on government to preform or lose the senate, Use the european boundaries have 60 maximum
same as Drumm Traitors the lot of them.. It seems the sacrifices made by those during the war of independence meant nothing. Our banking and political system have no idea about the value of tax payers money. This greed will boil over eventually and cause civil unrest the likes of which havent been seen since the civil war. I hope im wrong and they change their ways.
I dont know if id go that far Randy, but i do share many of your concerns about the system alright and i too hope they change their ways. This country and its fine people deserve better.
Are their wages not good enough? Why do they get this payment? That is more than I make in a year before taxes!! I find it obscene that this is continuing while cutbacks of all sorts are being forced on the country. I can’t believe I gave Fine Gael my number one. I can’t believe I was so naive. Oh well.
“The other University senator, Ivana Bacik, is the leader of the Labour delegation in the Seanad and is also not entitled to the payment.” that would be only from the time of Dublin Central by-election surely as prior to that she didn’t take the Labour whip in the Seanad. It is rather farcical that they’re not required to account for how this sum is spent and that they aren’t ‘supposed’ to spend it on election. Wait for the declaration of members interests and just seen up much in donations some independent Senators had available to send on their election campaigns, those front page ads in national newspapers don’t come cheap.
I’m not certain that this was a particularly well kept secret. I’ve known about leaders allowances for Members of the Oireactas for years and I wouldn’t keep up with the news awfully well.
It was mentioned in articles in the journal.ie and independent last year and before the election. It always grabs headlines and does no harm to be reminded about what CONTINUES to go on…..
What is it about the Irish political mobster fraternity that they love giving themselves vast sums of tax payers money, be it ludicrously high salaries, un-vouched, unregulated and over generous expenses, massive obscene pensions and usually along with other amassed pensions from teaching and the likes, not to mention the EU gravy train pensions. Then there’s the pay-off’s, parachute payments when they are thrown out. The fact that we have Irish politicians paying themselves more than German chancellors, American presidents and British prime ministers, Irish ministers who get paid more than leaders of the US treasury. It is rotten to the core, these people do not deserve to be paid this much, it seems that when it comes to the public purse these parasites treat it like it’s their own slush fund and loot every penny they can get their dirty grasping paws on! It’s a total farce that independents are allowed ‘leaders’ allowances, ridiculous even the leaders shouldn’t be allowed them. Talk about screwing the country! These maggots are screwing the corpse of what is left of the country!
now is not time to vote on the senate now as kenn said let the people have there say NOW
have your say