Obama is a servant of Rothschild.. …Nothing will change..

This cap gives a good indication to whose side of the fence he is on.

http://www.mujahideenryder.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/obama-jew-jewish-israel-skull-cap-yarlmuke-yamaka.jpg

The American support of Israel has nothing to do with the Jewish, it’s to do with having an ally in the region

With the Jewish vote, I mean

Ah no Dermot.. wrong there… Jews OWN America which is why they have to do Jewish bidding …it’s a sick world alright…

And Dev was a famous Indian chief! A photo out of context means nothing, the skill cap was probably donned out of respect while touring a religious site

https://ansionnachfionn.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/c3a9amon-de-valera-president-of-the-irish-republic-made-an-honorary-chief-of-the-ojibwe-chippewa-people-1919.gif

Malcolm – you’re quite right. How dare those pesky jews not only be good at running businesses but also good at acting. It’s an outrage.

Will people please stop calling them Jewish as you”re just playing into their hands so they can use the holocaust and anti-Semite card….Learn some history, not just the one they prescribe to u. These people are clearly not Jewish and go against everything Judaism stands for. These people are evil in every sense of the word.

@derek durkin, Well said

It’s not “the Jews”. They aren’t one homogeneous group.
There are many Jewish people appalled and outraged at Israels actions and they don’t deserve to be tarred with that brush.

It’s the Z vote – and quite a few of them are in fact Christians. This is why the vote is so powerful, there are far more Christian Z voters than Jewish, so please – ditch the actual suspicion of Jewish people and direct your ire where it belongs… At that ideology who’s name can’t even be mentioned here.

Washington is Israeli occupied territory! :(

@Taxi Bill

Since when is Creeping Ivy a beautiful flower?

@Derek

Indeed we need to make the distinction between Z.i.o.n.i.s.t.s. and Jews… as the Z.i.o.n.i.s.t.s. were as keen to cleanse them from Europe during WWII as the Nazis were. They even worked together on this aim. They then blocked attempts to resettle many of the Jews in Europe and the US after WWII… and when Israel was set up they slaughtered Palestinian and Jewish families… e.g. terrorizing the Jews in Iraq who detested Z.i.o.n.i.s.m. by planting bombs to sour relations between Jews and Muslims… and even today in the largely lunatic state of Israel ordinary decent Jews are being attacked in the streets by Z.i.o.n.i.s.t. lynch mobs…

Indeed. Israel’s wilful butchering of civilians threatens to prolong Palestinian malcontent for several generations to come. It is baffling that there isn’t an Israeli politician with enough brain cells to realise what dangers they are storing up for the security of future generations of Israelis. In fact, Israel’s Leas Ceann Comhairle called yesterday for the introduction of concentration camps in Gaza, and for the mass deportation of Palestinians to other regions of the World! Sickening.

The fact that governments whose counties have a long history of civil unrest, like Ireland, and the UK (NI), seem unwilling to challenge Israel on their war crimes is simply appalling. By it’s inaction, the International Community is condoning mass civil persecution, the very likes of which Jews suffered most from under during the Third Reich.

Unfathomable.

It’s simple. Neither side really wants peace.
If Israel were to return to the internationally agreed borders and lift the siege, then allow international troops to patrol the border rather than the IDF it would create a stable ground for talks – but they won’t. They keep expanding. Not to mention refusing to talk with their opponents.

Hamas are useful to them – they provide an excuse to continue with this behaviour.
Israel are useful for Hamas – as their actions give Israel an excuse to carry on as they are.

And on and on, so it has been for so long..

BOTH sides are wrong. BOTH sides behave in ways that aren’t conducive to peace.

Surely the ones claiming moral superiority should be taking the higher road and offering the Olive branch?

Hamas were elected in an open and fair plebiscite 8 years ago. I suppose their mandate has expired. I suspect, though, that they#d receive another mandate if they sought one.
They are the government in Gaza – a terrorist government
Shanti. Israel are a democratic state surrounded by numerous states devoted to her destruction.
Your analogy fails thereafter
The IRA never had the level of support enjoyed by Hamas, which has whole countries supporting it financially and militarily (e.g Turkey & Iran respectively). IRA merely had the likes of Hamas supporting them (hence SF & G. Adams fanatical hatred of Israel) and did not attract nearly so many prospective “martyrs” as Hamas.
You (reasonably) expect Israel to abide by international law.
Well, Shanti – they have been bound by and acted according to international law. Under a threat to their very existence they have behaved with admirable restraint.
They have fought a short, sharp war and won. Innocents were killed on both sides – the difference being Hamas targeted innocents and did not enjoy as much success as heretofore (remember their suicide bombers and previous mass murders?), whilst Israel targeted enemy combatants and killed innocents accidentally.
That, as a general overview, is a fact.

Shanti – “Isis are a terrorist group. Hamas are a terrorist group. At least according to those who oppose them.”

From the manner in which you phrased that statement, I take it you find some ambiguity in the generally perceived status of ISIS and Hamas as terrorist groups?

That being so, please outline what have ISIS and Hamas ever done – one posiitive, altruistic, peace-loving, kind thing – that would lead one to believe they have the best interests of their respective people at heart

You “suspect” they’d be voted in again.. Based on what?

Hamas came into existence in 1987, toward the end of our troubles.

And bravo for the straw man attempt. I said they’re terrorists. They are deemed so according to all who oppose them, including me. But their supporters won’t see them as terrorists, which is obviously what was meant by that comment.

And as an aside, the only thing contributing to Hamas’ support, is Israels blockade and their disproportionate reactions to what is, let’s face it, a very small threat from Hamas.

I “suspect” they would be voted in again based on their history of having been voted in the first time – even though they are chartered as racist killers.
Straw man accusation is not correct. I don’t bother going there. Your description of Hamas was wanting – since clarified in your rebuttal.

Re your aside – the ordinance being thrown Israel’s way is not a “small threat”. Any one of those rockets is capable of killing hundreds and injuring thousands. “Lets face it”, if you or I were in Israel when Hamas are firing 100 rockets indiscriminately we’d take cover – iron dome not no iron dome.
Disproportionate Israel’s reaction may well be by international standards – no other powerful nation has ever shown in such restraint in the face of such provocation

the restrain is very much for pr/ international perception- its not due to humanitarian ideals. By your logic Hamas could be praised for restraint prior to this conflict

http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-fired-rockets-for-first-time-since-2012-israeli-officials-say/

Hamas are fighting a dirty war- they are desperate and outmatched- this does not justify their actions but does explain it. The Israeli public has been led into this conflict under false pretenses, where the murder of 3 innocent boys was used to evoke justification. However the real reason was so that the prospects of the emergence of the Unity government could be dismantled.

The formation of the Unity government was welcomed by everyone, even the US. Israels politicians will not negotiate with Hamas- in doing so they will face opposition from the far right politicians and extremists within their own country. On an international level they fear that such negotiation will make them look weak. This is what led to this current situation, politics and international security issues. Hamas took the bait and dont help themselves, they create more suffering for the people of Gaza- but israels IDF and political class especially Netanyahu and his inner circle have no moral high ground here, the whole conflict is sickening.

Ok..
Restraint..
How many targets did the IRA hit during the troubles? Did Britain launch an all out invasion on NI? Did they drop white phosphorous on the catholic areas of Belfast in an attempt to take out the IRA?
No. They showed a bit more restraint, not perfect by any means – but positively saintly next to this lot.

Targeting enemy combatants and just so happened to hit the UN shelter – the one that they had been notified of 17 times, or how about those hospitals?
Are you seriously telling me that they couldn’t take out terrorist leadership without doing this?

As for how credible a threat Hamas are, are you seriously trying to tell me that next to the one nation in the region that actually has WMDs as well as one of the most well equipped armies in the world, Hamas are the threat?

I realise they fire rockets, and I don’t condone that – but I can see where it comes from. Same way I can see Israels reasons for wishing to *defend* itself.

This isn’t defence though, it’s offence. And like the US with the Iraq war it was waged under false pretences.

I challenge your assumptions on Palestinian support for Hamas. The last opinion polls showed support for Abbas, but a sharp decline in support for Hamas..
http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2013/p50e.html

Shanti – this is the conclusion of the short version of your survey: ” It should be noted however that the percentage of those who believe that Hamas’ way is the best way remains higher than the percentage of those who believe that Abbas’ is the best.”

My assumptions are correct, based on your evidence.

What are you going on about the IRA and Britain for? There is no equivalence, moral or analogous.
Hamas are a credible threat to the continued existence of not just Israel but the Jewish people and continue to receive almost unlimited resources in armaments and infrastructure related to war. Many of those resources were intended for hospitals and schools but have been used to build tunnels to carry war to Israel. Iran also spend multiple millions on armaments and military support for their proxy.
Palestinians are fighting to establish a nation where none existed, but they rest assured the Israelis do not intend to wipe them from the face of the earth. Israel are fighting to retain not just a nation but the lives of every man, woman and child called a Jew

t

Israel AREN’T trying to wipe them out?
So, there haven’t been articles on “the case for genocide” published in their media, no? No prominent Israeli leaders and members of the Knesset making statements in the same sort of vein that you would (rightly) denounce as barbaric and disgraceful?
What would you call the illegal settlements and consistent expansion past the internationally agreed borders?

And the reason I mention the IRA is because they were a terrorist organisation fighting against what they saw as an occupying force – and unlike Israel, Britain showed restraint and it led to the Good Friday Agreement, decommissioning of the IRA, and relative peace.

Now let me see, which approach do I think holds more merit? Considering that to repay violence with violence merely continues the downward spiral..

Interesting that you ignored the moves toward Palestinian unity (indicating a softening of Hamas ideals).. Or that the only reason Hamas even exist is because of Israel, and now that Hamas have decided to unite with the PLO suddenly Israel have to steam on in to Gaza. They knew those kids weren’t kidnapped by Hamas, and those tunnels have been around for a long time – how come they’re only suddenly a threat now?

You said they keep to international law – that’s either wilful ignorance or denial. Which one is it?

Your question at the end is into straw man territory – equiv. to the old trick question of “Do you beat your wife with your fists or do you use a stick” – neither answer suits.

Israel could wipe out “Palestine” in a week yet chooses not to. Israel aren’t too hot at the genocide lark, are they? Judging by the Palestinian population explosion in the last few decades, both in and outside of Israel, they are keeping birth control devices away from them too.

“The case for genocide” has been advocated by some extremists in a free society and you transfer the guilt of that to a whole nation? Many Irish people advocate the destruction of Jews on this site and that is not reflective of this nation’s policy any more than Israeli extremism is reflective of Israeli gov. policy. To claim it is is disingenuous of you.

International rules of engagement have been kept by Israel in this conflict and ignored by the Palestinians – the latter having attempted genocide, without success this time, every day for the last month, the former endeavoring, sincerely albeit unsuccessfully, to restrict casualties to combatants only.

The only thing that unites different Palestinian factions is not a shared love of freedom and country. Its a shared hatred of Israel and Jews. Show me proof if you disagree

@Dismas

You say: “Any one of those rockets is capable of killing hundreds and injuring thousands!”

God that would definitely explain Israels intense military attacks on Gaza…

Now would you remind me please when that happened? Because I must have read the wrong UN reports, as according to Amnesty, the UN , the Palestinian authority, and every other agency reporting on the conflict it seems Israel have killed more people on each day of the last three weeks in Gaza than have been killed by Hamas’s low yield, homemade rockets in the last ten years!

Surely that can’t be right? RIGHT?!?!?

@Dismas

Seems you know precious little about Irish history… cant say I’m not surprised given I highly doubt you’re from Ireland… and just to give you a heads up the IRA had massive support in the USA and from many other portions of the globe. IRA fighters even trained with the PLO in Lebanon after Israel invaded and attempted to impose a Christian Phalangist government there, and failed!!!

As for Britain well the British finally accepted that you have to talk to both sides to make peace….

And just try telling that to your wonderful democracy Israel… whose main government party has the following charter:

The 1999 Likud Party Charter:

“The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria (West Bank) and Gaza are the realization of Z.i.o.n.i.s.t values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defence of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.

Similarly, they claim the Jordan River as the permanent eastern border to Israel and it also claims Jerusalem as belonging to Israel.

The ‘Peace & Security’ chapter of the 1999 Likud Party platform rejects a Palestinian state.

“The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs.

Of course the updated Likud Constitution of May 2014 is deliberately more vague and ambiguous. Though it contains commitments to the strengthening of Jewish settlement in Judea and Samaria, it does not explicitly rule out the establishment of a Palestinian state, but we all know exactly where that means…!

Dismas, do you know what a straw man argument is?
I asked were you wilfully ignorant or in denial – how is this misrepresenting your argument? It’s asking whether you are in denial about the many incursions into international law or ignorant of them.

Because shelling hospitals is against it.
Shelling known refugee centres is against it.
Collective punishment is against it.

So how exactly have they adhered to international law in this specific operation?

And are you ignoring the illegal settlements? Because they are extremely relevant.

You might also want to look into the official definitions of genocide. But I was referring to the fact that this sort of article was PUBLISHED. It wasn’t comments from a random citizen, it was published – that’s a lot different from what you assert, and I don’t see many people calling for the destruction of Jews as you assert – now THAT, is a straw man (exaggerating or misrepresenting your opponents argument and attacking that instead).

And as for your last comment – you could level that accusation at either side, so what’s the point in trying to indulge you in tit for tat?

Point by point, Shanti

I am neither wilfully ignorant nor in denial. You ask questions that have, in your mind, only 2 possible answers. The answers you compose in your mind for me are not the ones I would supply.

Accidental shelling of civilian targets in a hot war zone is not a war crime, it’s a war mistake. Yesterday morning, Hamas targeted and hit a house near Bethlehem just before the ceasefire. The people who fired that rocket aimed to hit any target whatsoever in Israel.
That’s a war crime.

I am ignoring the “illegal” settlements in this thread, yes. Israel acquired lands for protection as a result of almost becoming extinct during the war her neighbours started in 1967. I fully support the Israeli states right to retain the lands – not as a spoil of war but as a buffer against her murderous neighbours. If Israel surrendered that land before 1973, as the UN had required, the nation would not have survived the Yom Kippur war – again foisted on her by her murderous neighbours. Surrender of those lands would be national suicide. Netanyahu says they are non-negotiable because there is no fall-back position once they are gone.

So someone PUBLISHED (emphasis yours) a doc. proposing genocide – so what? There’s a website that PUBLISHES articles advocating paedophilia. Does the guilt of such an atrocious act extend beyond those who publish such tripe and into the general internet world? Does PUBLISHING something lend it legitimacy in your world? I have access to technology on this computer that would allow me, were I so inclined, to PUBLISH 50 copies of a perfect-bound 148pp full colour treatise calling for the destruction of Scotland and all natives within because they are trying to break up the Union. All for less than the price of a 30-seconds ad on Radio 1. Again, SO WHAT? (emphasis mine this time)

Re tit-for-tat queries, I’ll cede you that point, we would only be in a slagging match there.

The “straw man fallacy” is relevant in regard to your posing questions which try to elicit only 2 possible answers, both supporting your argument. You have erected a straw man argument by posing a question in that fashion. In courts of law, such questions are over-ruled by diligent judges. A skilled cross-examiner will rather ask questions which have one of 2 answers – “Yes” or “No” – and then not allow his opponent to qualify his answer. That doesn’t work in this forum.

A divided Iraq with no Saddam Hussein or no intention of displacing the dominance of the US dollar as the world’s currency for oil. A honed and experienced US military and new weapons and drones developed and tested on the battlefield. mission accomplished.

“Ally” evidently should read “Puppet”.

Stephen you may have noticed that the US used to be everybody’s darling. Now more people fear the US than any other nation. Now I know that people in the US have been brought up on fear of everyone (including themselves) but the concept is unwelcome elsewhere as people have learned the hard way that having empires and international wars tends to hurt you as much as it does the other guy.

The US likes to fight its wars elsewhere, notably upon those who don’t have the capabilities to fight back. No empire lasts forever though and being outwardly aggressive only speeds up its demise. I think we can look forward to the day when the US returns to its divided character when it loses its own domestic support and internecine strife begins to dominate its agenda. Maybe then we can have our world back.

Dream on…

Jenni
“Murder” of civilians?
The IDF are fighting a war for the survival of the Jewish nation. The nation of Israel does not target non-combatants.
Hamas are murderers. They put their own children in harm’s way. Purposely, pointedly and intentionally, to garner public sympathy. Hamas are akin to ISIS and Boko Haram – murderous, barbarous and without a scintilla of compassion for either their own or Jewish lives.
They even strap suicide vests onto little kids.
Why would you call them murderers?

Jenni – my question is, of course, referring to your inaccurate depiction of the IDF as murderers. Hamas are the murderers.

Dismas the IDF has killed children yes or no?

Mike – yes.
Qualifier: Children were not the target. The people who fire missiles at civilians were.
Hamas has purposefully targetted children.

Jenni have you a source for those figures?

Dismas four little boys playing football on the beach, murdered by 2 artillery shots from an Israeli vessel they were targeted and murdered.

Dismas

As we now know, Hamas has had numerous concrete roofed, rail car equipped tunnels into Israel (as opposed to the other supply tunnels into Egypt) for quite some time – years at least.

Hamas could have easily used these tunnels to move very large amounts of explosives & weapons into Israel, to supply suicide bombs or car bombs capable of killing dozens of Israeli civilians at a time.

But…. this has not happened. And the only reason we can deduce – as the IDF knew nothing of these tunnels prior to the conflict – is that Hamas CHOSE NOT TO DO THIS.

Instead, these tunnels have been used to attack Israeli miltary that were themselves attacking Gaza – ie used for a military to military purpose.

As for the rockets fired untargetted into Israel… Rabbi Richard Werner puts it well here:

“….When Hamas responded by starting to send its (guaranteed to be ineffective and hence merely symbolic in light of Israel’s Iron Shield) missiles toward civilian targets in Israel, the Netanyahu government used that as its excuse to launch a brutal assault on Gaza….”

http://www.salon.com/2014/08/04/israel_has_broken_my_heart_i%E2%80%99m_a_rabbi_in_mourning_for_a_judaism_being_murdered_by_israel/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

There is no possible defence for the deliberate or negligent mass murder of children. Period.

The people who try to defend that are either clinically Psychopaths, or Psychpaths by choice and demented ‘reason’.

IDF asked by UN not to bomb one of its schools 17 times, even GPS Co ordinates given.IDF still bombed the school more children murdered they were targeted.

On the questioning of targetting….

From an Israeli tank gunner, explaining the accuracy of their shells….

“….unless we accurately weigh each shell before firing, we can be easily 200m to 300m away from our aiming point….”

In such a densely populated area, with thousands of additional displaced civilians, and in fact only a very tiny & lightly armed force defending, that is a de facto admission of war crimes.

The onus is on the attacking force to ensure civilians are not at risk.

But it is also plain to see for anyone, with the repeated bombing and shelling of UN compounds besides civilian residences, that Israeli forces have not had any real regard for civilian lives.

A reality reflecting perfectly the ‘extermination’ rhetoric of senior members of the ruling Likud party & their even further neo-Nazi coalition partners…. eg Deputy Speaker of the Knesset, Moshe Feiglin, and numerous others.

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/concentrate-and-exterminate-israel-parliament-deputy-speakers-gaza-genocide-plan

There is no other reasonable conclusion to be drawn from the facts…

Israel is carrying out a deliberate policy of mass murder (of children as well) and ethnic cleansing with the explicit intention (quote: Moshe Feiglin “… it belongs to us…G-d gave it to us…” – meaning Gaza & all of Palestine, preferably without any of the indiginous population remaining, and certainly without any legal rights if they do.)

Dismas – By saying that innocent civilians have been murdered by the IDF does not equate to Hamas not being murdering terrorists. I am firmly with Israel but I also believe in the right for Palestinians to have a state they can call their own. My point is that innocent people are murdered in all wars … it is a sad result of war, but that the numbers of innocent palestinians are a heck of a lot less than those in other wars.

Jenni any chance you’d provide a primary source for your figures above?

Mike – you wrote “The people who try to defend that are either clinically Psychopaths, or Psychpaths by choice and demented ‘reason’”
Your argument that any who disagree with your reasoning are “Psychopaths” (what do you think a “psychopath” is?) is typical of the arguments sometimes brought to this discussion. We disagree. You’re a reasonable, considerate man and I’m a psychopath. End of discussion for you.
You do realise that the demonisation tactics you use are exactly the same tactics Hamas use? They are not fighting human beings. They are fighting “Z#onist Animals” and “Pigs”. It is easier to kill people – and plot to destroy every Jew in Israel – when they are “untermencsh” – sub-human.

It is plain there is a war on.
The IDF targets enemy combatants.
Side effect of war in cities = civilian casualties.

You justify Hamas by nullifying the impact of their missiles. Notwithstanding each missile contains enough explosive to kill and maim hundreds in a single strike if the intended (civilian) targets are achieved. Note: “intended” .

There is a fundamental difference between Israel and her leaders and “Palestine” and its leaders. Israel is willing to cede more and more rights and co-operation in return for peace.
“Palestine” is willing to fight until every Jew has been killed. Even at the cost of deliberately sacrificing (murdering) the lives of non-combatants from its own people.

The source is the Meir Amit Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (ITIC), which before you al shout me down is a centre that has close ties to the IDF. They have been keeping its own tally of those killed in Gaza and it roughly matches the UN count at the same time i.e. 1,717. So there is a difference of 270, which again if you take 47% as being militia, we still have a near 50:50 split between militia and innocents.

The UN doesn’t publish a list of the dead (neither does ITIC) so it is not easy to identify the sources of the discrepancies. But we can make some educated guesses.

During Cast Lead, the number of people who were reported of dying natural deaths in Gaza plummeted. It seems likely that many people who died naturally in Gaza over the past month were moved over to the “martyr” category.

There have been reports of Hamas killing collaborators. Also unverified reports of Hamas killing demonstrators. Beyond that, there are clearly people who were killed by Hamas rockets or explosions.

We have also seen quite few people double-counted, or even triple-counted, although I don’t know if the UN list includes those. (The UN count is about fifty fewer than the Hamas Health Ministry count.)

Once the actual names are released, it seems very unlikely that any journalist in Gaza would endanger him- or herself to research the circumstances behind every disputed death. It also seems unlikely that the IDF figures, which have been found to be accurate (as much as could be determined) in the past, will be given the same attention as the UN or Hamas figures.

Done Mike … sorry was busy dealing with Dermot Ryan’s school boy crush on another article

Jenni

That is a shockingly dismissive argument about the mass murder of children.

Further you say you “…believe in the right for Palestinians to have a state they can call their own…”

But here you have not been been prepared to support even the slightest sanction or International condemnation against this Israeli regime who plainly believe the entire opposite and are following policies to forcibly remove or kill an indiginous population of millions.

De facto Likud government policy, also found in Likud Deputy Speaker’s own words in his youtube video speeces…

“Concentrate and exterminate”

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/concentrate-and-exterminate-israel-parliament-deputy-speakers-gaza-genocide-plan

Jenni seriously quoting a source that has close links with the IDF? Totally unbiased.The UN are using figures of over 350 children killed.
You posted a link before attributed to a reporter and the same reporter took to his twitter account to rubbish it.

Dismas

A fact rarely mentioned is that just prior to this latest slaughter of Gazans, Hamas partnered with Fatah/PA in the West Bank, explicitly to be part of negotiations with Israel.

This is almost certainly the main reason that Israel chose to create this latest massacre at this time. Israel needs Hamas to be isolated so as propagandise a spurious reason to prevent real engagement on a two state solution.

Deputy Speaker of the Knesset, along with others in the ruling coalition expresses the true Israeli policy that it’s goal is to take all of Palestine, including Gaza & the West Bank, as the “..Jewish home…for all the Jews of the world..”. and with as few indiginous Palestinians remaining as possible. And they do not care much what means are used to achieve that, as we see in Gaza.

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/concentrate-and-exterminate-israel-parliament-deputy-speakers-gaza-genocide-plan

Another member of the Likud MK’s is reported here with similar neo- Nazi views…

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/why-im-on-the-brink-of-burning-my-israeli-passport-9600165.html

Thanks for your valid contribution James. You really added to the discussion.

Mike I am not dismissing the murder of children. This is a very emotive issue and you are trying to make me out to be a callous bitch. I was just trying to pointing out to the OP that 50% of deaths have in fact been militia as he seems to think that they are all civilian which is just not true. Do you believe that all the deaths are civilian Mike?

You then go on to say :
“you have not been been prepared to support even the slightest sanction or International condemnation against this Israeli regime”
Actually I have said that all those guilty of war crimes must be dealt with. If you think this means that I want those committing war crimes on the Israeli side to walk away scott free, you are once again choosing to listen, which is why I don’t get into discussions with you. You need to listen to me or else go annoy someone else.

Mike
You rubbish Jenni’s sources of Information and then send some cr#p from “electronicintifada” and a far-right Jewish member of the Knesset who plainly does not speak for her people but her party. You know bloody well (using bloody advisedly) that te people and government of Israel do not endorse what you call “neo-Nazi” politics and what you ought more realistically call extreme nationalist views
Even the British “Indo” says your second opinion source is “far right of Netanyahu”
Your deductions are extremely poor.
I suspect you have been consuming a lot of SF/IRA propaganda for main course and have been dieting on PLO-type desserts.
Read the news from more than one or two biased sources and draw some independent conclusions, why don’t you?
At least Jenni has reasoned her arguments by absorbing information from many sources, even if I don’t agree with a lot of her conclusions I respect her integrity. Your arguments, Mike, smack of blinkered opinion. You do not allow the Israelis any legitimacy whatsoever.
And, of course, you dehumanise those you disagree with
I don’t think you are a psyhco Miko. You are merely uninformed and being in possession of only limited facts and biased sources your reasoning has become so warped you have overlooked Hamas complicity in attempted genocide and perpetuation of a struggle they can never win.
The whole region is the loser as long as PLO, MB and Hamas keep getting replaced by carbon copies of themselves

Mike Hunt … my reply to you seems to have been deleted so I’ll try again.

I never said that the source was unbiased BUT it is only 270 less than the UN figures. Is the UN a fair source?

My point is that 0-14 yr olds make up approx 44.7% of Gazans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Palestinian_territories).

So take the UN figure of 350 murdered kids (which you provided) as a percentage of the UN figure of 1717 deaths and it is only 20% of total deaths. This is awful but I’m not getting into emotion right now.

Take out the ITIC number of known militants (407) and the number of children’s deaths still only make up 26.7% of the remaining innocents (assuming that all the “unknowns” are innocent). And this doesn’t even take account of the 15-17 year olds who make up a sizable % of the population so in fact the proportion of children being murdered is way less than what you would expect if the IDF were indiscriminately murdering.

If the IDF were bombing without care, the number of deaths of under 14 year olds would be more like 770, i.e. 44.7% of 1717 deaths or 586 of 1310 death (the total number less the known militants). Valid point or do you totally dismiss that?

Here is a link to the names of the dead Mike,

note that the vast majority of the dead are males of fighting age, so its pretty safe to assume that many of these were militants.

And its not an Israeli source but an Arab one.

http://www.imemc.org/article/68429

Jenni

Again, as you have done on every occasion you sidestep the actual question & the point of it.

It is +not+ about +your+ expressions of condemnation, praise or dismissal.

Rather, it is about asking – demanding – what +our own political leaders+ say or do.

That is where you refuse to say anything every time.

It is obvious to all that without International pressure, either verbally, or preferably with economic sanctions, this Israeli regime will take that as aquiescence or approval & simply carry on.

And carry on with things you +claim+ to be against.

In the light of this (again), I do not view your protestations as deeply felt, or even credible. It is de facto a +do nothing+ position.

Do you even read any of the links I post with prominent pro-Israelis expressing their views that International action is needed?

What do you have to say about the facts presented, in their own words, that by ‘biblical right’ the de facto policy of the ruling Likud coalition is to take over all of Palestine and remove as many indiginous people as possible to make room for new Israeli (Jewish majority) settlements and cities? (As in Deputy Speaker Moshe Feiglin and others.)

Reasonable questions by any stretch, yet you have avoided any direct answers to them.

You imply you are here for ‘debate’. In refusing to engage with such questions, I do not find that credible either. Hence I take your views as de facto approval for current Israeli policy, which includes the unapologetic mass murder of children.

Jenni – you flip between sounding like a homicidal maniac and a nice loving mother, its very confusing. There is hardly a single IDF press release that has not been a lie, e.g.

Lie #1/ Hamas killed those 3 teenagers in the westbank – they used this lie as an excuse to bomb Gaza and ethnically cleanse 40% of its land
Lie #2/Hamas broke the ceasefire by kidnapping a soldier – it happened before the ceasefire and the soldier was killed by IDF bombardment) – they used this lie to carpet bomb Rafah during a ceasefire killing 130 people.
Lie #3 – #127/ We did not bomb the UN refugee camp/school/hospital – this was a regular cracker excusing the intentional killing of civilians as collective punishment.
General Lie: This is about security for Israel and stopping Bombs/ Tunnels – it is about the complete take over of the WestBank by settlers and the shrinking and eventual removal of Gaza from the map

The only way to stop a war is to negotiate and bring some form of justice to all sides (hand back stolen land in return complete disarmament of terrorists groups, a Palestenian state). Israel refuses to negotiate and continues to build settlements and steal land.

You posting an IDF source make you lose all credibility and makes me think you are lying about wanting a 2 state solution or a home for Palestine. You are as bad as all of those in Israel calling for genocide and ethnic cleansing all over their media.

Get off the fence Jenni – you cannot claim to want peace and support the IDF/ Zi0n.sts, which is it?

Mike Hall – I have debated with you many times and when we get down into the detail you disappear only to reappear on another article accusing me of the same thing. Am I going to have to do what Fog does and copy & paste my answers for you?

I read everything that is put up … inc the Iran press and electronicintifada propaganda that some see as totally unbiased. I am well versed in Chomsky, Peled and others like then. I do not claim to be a historian but I have a decent understanding of the history (both sides) and accept that the truth lies somewhere in between. I am well aware of the way Palestinians are treated and am disgusted by it.

I have said that BN needs to step down. I don’t agree with the Likud policies and that I firmly believe that the West Bank is not Israel at all. I 100% oppose the settlements. I don’t agree with the right to return (for either people) . Here’s what I do believe …

1. The people themselves need to revel against their respective current leaders and get rid of the extremists

2. The international community need to help them with this, to break down the culture of fear about the “other side” and educate both peoples on the merits of mutual trust and respect

3. When the west bank is cleared of settlements (many israelis will call this ethnic cleansing by the way), the blockade should be lifted with a neutral police force in place

4. Peace talks with the US, Egypt, Qatar and actually Ireland (given our history) should be started immediately

5. The route to link the West Bank to Gaza must be mobilized (there has been talk of several options for this which are interesting and would make a trip 90 mins to get from “north” to “south”). It is ridiculous to talk about Palestine being Gaza & the West Bank when thy are not currently joined up.

6. The land must be split … Israel under Israeli rule, Palestine under Palestinian rule. They can each decide their own right to return laws as is their prerogative.

There is more but I await to see if you bother responding this time.

Would you like to spout more propaganda, accuse me of being wishy washy or actually come up with a solution of your own to share with me?

No fence sitting here Kerrill. It is in fact possible to support a 2 state solution while not accepting the war crimes on both sides.

And Kerrill,

See my reply to Mike Above re the IDF source which begin with

“I never said that the source was unbiased BUT it is only 270 less than the UN figures. Is the UN a fair source?”

Would you care to respond to that comment? I am just sick of people like the OP saying that it’s all civilians dying on the Gaza side. It’s a crock of you know what. And also that people love to say that they are deliberately murdering children … are the stats lying?

Jenni
According to Mike’s source Electronicintifada, “Israel has created a hegemonic racist Jewish culture that does not only dominate Israeli Jewish communities but also Jewish communities in Europe and its settler colonial extensions (in the Americas, in Australia and in South Africa). ”

Israel is also, according to Mike’s pals in electronicintifada, causing Jews in Europe, fighting for racial supremacy,to join the fight against Palestinians to prove their racial superiority and manliness by fighting Jews.

Mike, have you no shame? The sources you quote are blatantly anti-semitic. They are not smart enough to hide it, either. Specificaly, one of your sources, quoted in three places so far just on this thread alone, is extremely anti-Jewish and uses confounded reasoning to try and prove a world-wide Jewish plot against Palestine. Not Z#onist plotting, Jewish plotting.

Mike – this was the first story I clicked on on that rotten website you love to quote from, from which my above pints were deduced – only the first. Who knows what other rubbish is in a site like that?
Cr#p in, cr#p out, Mike.
http://electronicintifada.net/content/jewish-volunteers-racial-supremacy-palestine/13695

Oh I know Dismas, but true to form he won’t be back now as he just likes to spread his propaganda, accuse me of not having a valid opinion and then off he goes to another thread and starts again. He’ll never respond to my solution. I know you and I disagree … I’m more centralist than you, but at least we can have a rational discussion without this nonsense!

The other Mike normally returns but given that he asked for my source on a few different articles and as soon as he has the chance to discredit me, he shys away from responding to the breakdown of the numbers. He’s just disappeared too.

Well I wonder if either of them or Kerrill or indeed the OP will come back to me about the stats. If Israel were indiscriminately murdering kids, the number would be 590+ and not 350. It is a massive statistical fact …

Dismas – check out his FB page … this is one delightful gem he has on it…

https://www.facebook.com/alienatus/photos/a.366990910061076.85872.366987393394761/666535460106618/?type=1&theater

He’s a delight…

If Israel were indiscriminately murdering anyone Syrian-style, Jenni, I think you could add a few zeros to the end of the numbers being quoted.
Random killing in Gaza would be like shooting fish in a barrel.
Any Israeli commander who’s purpose is to kill as many as possible could achieve the whole month’s figure in an hour.
The Israelis have displayed remarkable restraint, a restraint that is unmatched in any other violent conflict anywhere in the world today.
Apropos nothing, Jenni, as an Irish Jew, you are, according to Mike H’s sources, a member of an Israeli “settler colonial extension”.
I got that from the link I posted above.
Just so you know what we’re dealing with here.

That’s fine Jenni, but without citizens demanding International pressure on Israel to those ends, your views will have no effect whatever.

Surely, given the history and explicit intentions of this Israeli regime you can see that?

Why not voice your support also for people like Rabbi Richard Werner?

Why have so many of your links been to obvious propaganda outlets for this current regime’s views? Like algemeiner, who would never publish anything by those like Werner seeking a peaceful resolution with justice for Palestinians.

And no, it is not all civilians dying on the Gaza side, but at present it is overwhelmingly so, and by the acts, not of people under decades of occupation and brutal oppression, but by a supposed civilised modern state. Context is vital to understanding.

I am not the only one who has made the reasonable interpretation that your posts – at the very least – have sought to treat the crimes of this Israeli regime lightly. What is the point of arguing – nit picking – whether it is 300 children, or 400 blown to bits? Surely you see that this simply serves to dilute the real horror that is being perpetrated?

Can you not see yourself that this regime has lying to the world about it’s true intentions? And that comparisons with neo-Nazism are valid?

No Jenni I haven’t disappeared but you have shown yourself willing to post discredited links and biased articles.Further I believe you are no different than Fog with his vile comments and not worthy of any further comment.I ‘m pleased for you that you seem content the death toll is not as high as other wars.I’m sure the parents of murdered children would take solace from you cold words.

Dismas

I’m “..anti-semitic..” posting links to Rabbi Richard Werner and other prominent Jews speaking out against these atrocities commited by Israel??

Must be your own unique definition – or the usual for Israel’s propaganda Trolls that cannot accept any criticism of Israeli gov policy, even when it is blatantly neo-Nazi. Or is that murderous racist ideology what you are really supporting here? Certainly looks like it to me.

Mike Hall

“without citizens demanding International pressure on Israel to those ends”
And international pressure on Hamas and the PA too of course or did you leave that out intentionally??

” it is not all civilians dying on the Gaza side, but at present it is overwhelmingly so”
Prove it because my reckoning show it to be at best 50% which is half … not exactly an overwhelming majority…..

“What is the point of arguing – nit picking – whether it is 300 children, or 400 blown to bits? ”
Because 350 compared to 550+ is a difference of 20% v 35% which adds to your nonsense of saying that it is overwhelmingly civilians dying. And that the IDF just bomb everyone and want to ethnic cleanse the whole area. It’s just not true. The figures don’t like…

Jenni, the stats indeed do not lie.

There are over 350 dead Palestinian children and over 2400 injured.
There are 0 dead israelie children and 0 injured.

How can you possibly try to belittle the damage or say it was anything other than targeting civilians! The UN gave their coordinates 33 time in one attack and 17 times in another and the IDF still bombed them – a building full of sleeping children!

Posting IDF propoganda is hardly indicative of someone who opposes their actions?

Jenni – are you seriously saying that it’s all OK because we only killed 350 kids, not 579!!!

There are NO dead israelie children, no children killed in their sleep, killed playing football, killed in playgrounds, killed buying sweets.

They are not statistics they are DEAD CHILDREN. Listen to yourself!

Mike Hunt

Tell me something … point me to a media source that you consider unbiased? Every bit of media is biased as every reported is subjective. Objective media is non existent. I believe the UN to be a fair source of info don’t you?

Trying to say that I am content about the death toll is an absolute attempt to discredit me. Anyone who has been reading my thoughts on this for the last 4 weeks knows that I absolutely condemn the murder of innocents, but I refuse to be manipulated and let others be manipulated by the likes of you who try to distort the facts … facts are cold and hard. They do not have emotions. Yes seeing pictures of dead children are horrendous and no one can help but be extremely moved by them. But to disregard the figures as me being content by unnecessary death is just a smokescreen for you not being able to deny the facts Mike.

I am pointing out that the hysterics from you and others about the majority of deaths being civilians and that most are children are just lies.

Mike Hall, I have no idea whether or not you are anti Semitic. I did state the following about you:
“The sources you quote are blatantly anti-semitic”

Jenni’s FB link above…

“Al Quaeda.. Why Has It Never Attacked Israel?”

Not directly relevant to the Palestinian issue, but a highly relevant question considering that Al Quaeda, by their own admission was originally a US/CIA created, funded & armed ‘asset’ in 1980s Afghanistan.

And highly relevant to what has morphed into widespread conflict in the middle east from de facto US support (thru’ Saudi, Turkey and others) for ‘rebel’ Islamic extremists in Syria.

It has been claimed that the current head of ISIS was (or is still?) a Mossad/CIA asset. It is still very unclear exactly who is supporting who and what in the wider region.

So your point, in the context here, was what exactly?

To be fair Jenni – you never actually included a link to that source..

Are the UN to be trusted, well – they’re supposed to be neutral, hence why people are inclined to place a little more credence in them than they would a solely Arab or indeed solely Israeli source.

I know you disagree with many of the Israeli states actions, so it’s not like I need to even go there with you. But it is interesting that many of the things you call for, were conditions that Hamas set for peace, and Israel rejected.

It makes the most sense for illegal settlements to be abandoned and an international peace keeping force to patrol the border – but to the best of my knowledge, Hamas asked for that and were shot down.

To any of us this seems a fair trade and a realistic start to facilitate the peace talks and trying to leave aside the dehumanising of a perceived enemy. They had kept the ceasefire for what, 2 years before this?
Those tunnels have been there for a lot longer than that, and the fact that the exercise switched from the apprehending of those responsible for a kidnapping to destroying the tunnels that seem to only suddenly be an issue seems a little too convenient to many.

But the targeting of designated safe zones and the kids on the beach seem to be the main things that have people disgusted. Sadly, it’s not the first time – they were disgusted with the illegal use of white phosphorous the last time too.

No Kerrill I am not saying it’s OK. Where did I say that? The OP stated:

“the Gaza people are the ones dying, not their militia”

This is not true and I am merely correcting this incorrect information.

And actually plenty of Israeli children died as a result of suicide bombers or do you conveniently forget about them?

As I said way back i this thread ” This is awful but I’m not getting into emotion right now.” Would you prefer me to premiss every statement with “I am against war and murdering children?” There is no one on this site I believe who is celebrating dead children ffs

Mike Hall…
Your cartoon of “Al Quaeda.. Why Has It Never Attacked Israel?” … to me reads that you with they had. Perhaps I’m wrong and if so, I apologize wholeheartedly. By the way, I’m still waiting on your solution to the conflict? It’s all just rhetoric with you so far…

You cannot support the Israeli governments brutal regime and defend the rights of Palestenians at the same time.

Maybe you should have a bit more emotional Jenni – those children are being killed in the name of Israel and in the name of Zi..ist expansion.

You might be a bit more vocal about it instead of supporting Charles, Foggy and the other fascists.

Jenni, I must admit Mr.Hall does seem to have an unhealthy obsession with you ever since you were honest and revealed yourself as an Irish Jew.

Maybe there is nothing to it just a coincidence, but it does invite curiosity.

Hi Shanti

“But it is interesting that many of the things you call for, were conditions that Hamas set for peace, and Israel rejected.”

Which is exactly why it drives me demented when people try and brand me as an apologist for child murder or anti Palestine. Some refuse to believe that I genuinely am pro 2 state and pro peace. I’m not saying any of what I suggest will happen, but it is my two cent worth as to a possible solution. The biggest issue is always going to be over Jerusalem … I mentioned before whether it could be run like the Vatican … a separate holy state, available for all people. I need to think that one through more clearly though before I really talk about it!

The bombing of safe zones is totally unacceptable. I wouldn’t even try to defend this as it’s indefensible. Of course I understand this view. But some equate this with Israel engaging in ethnic cleansing which I just don’t believe for one second. If they genuinely wanted a genocide, what’s taking them so long? We know they have the capability. The world is against them anyway. So why the wait? Because it’s not true in my opinion.

The ceasefire of 2 years is questionable … there were still rockets coming. Maybe not from the military arm of Hamas, but they were ongoing. Israelis just accept it as a way of life.

There has to be peace talks but both must come to the table without preconditions surely?

Jenni

Go and listen to Moshe Feiglin’s own words in his own video’d speeches on youtube… he is quite explicit about ‘taking over’ +all+ of Palestine. It also goes beyond words… back in 2012 (IIRC)..”.. we are preparing a ‘plan’…”

(Do you know what the ‘Dahiye’ doctrine is supported by the most senior figures in the IDF and others?… it states ALL civilians are ‘legitimate’ targets, against which ‘full force’ should be used – of the world’s 4th most powerful military – go and look!)

Nor is he some minor figure in Likud, Deputy Speaker and intimately involved in forming party policy. None of what has said challenged by any other party members including PM Netanyahu.

These are de facto Likud – Israeli gov – policies. No question.

And what about answering the question of demanding International pressure on Israel? Or do you think that somehow (miraculously) despite all this and the decades gone by, Israel will come to a two state solution itself? Please tell us.

Have you listened to the testimony of the former Israeli soldiers in ‘Breaking the Silence’? If not, why not? All of these men and women are Jewish and self-declared pro-Israeli (the country). Do you not owe it to yourself to listen to some first hand testimony, rather than just ‘official’ sources?

Kerrill – “You cannot support the Israeli governments brutal regime and defend the rights of Palestenians at the same time.”
I never said I did. I said that I support israel’s right to exist as well as Palestine’s right to exist.

So I’ll say it back to you then … You cannot support Hamas’s brutal regime and defend the rights of israelis at the same time.

Kerrill “Maybe you should have a bit more emotional Jenni”

I wrote a very emotional comment a few weeks ago and I was accused of being a shill, of being anything other than Irish, of not having kids, etc. People don’t trust that I genuinely am an Irish Jewish mother of two kids. I was accused of using emotion to throw our propaganda. Whatever approach I use, I get it thrown back in my face.

Better yet Jenni, go to Israel yourself and talk to people there, like Moshe Feiglin, in Likud and the other members of the regime coalition and tell them your views about the two state solution. See what reaction you get!

Mike Hall – how about you stop asking me questions and telling me to go and watch various other videos and just tell me your solution in your own words?

What is your plan for peace? BDS and all will be solved?

And Mike as I have said (must be 1000 times now) … I have listened and read documentaries and books from:
Miko Peled
Noam Chomsky
Breaking the Silence
and many more

I have never denied the facts although I do argue with the facts some of them conveniently leave out.

If you think that my opinion is so irrelevant then just stop stalking me. Every time I comment, you just have to reply. So just stop … it’s very easy!

I am not interested in a solution that includes war. End of story

And stop using ‘straw man’ arguments.

You have stated your desire for a two state solution. Accepted. But our disagreement now is how we get there.

You appear to trust either Israel itself, or indeed the present regime with an honest desire to achieve that. That is our dispute. When publicly stated Likud policy is totally opposite, where do you see any +evidence+ for that?

Yes, BDS had a powerful effect on South Africa. Israel is highly dependent on trade – even much more so than SA – with US and EU countries. And also $3 billion + of military aid from the US.

It’s unlikely the US will do anything unless others do first. It has to begin somewhere. Support BDS.

Demand that Israel negotiate with the Fatah/PA/Hamas coalition – in place now – that represents (as well as possible) the vast majority of Palestinians.

What is +your+ strategy, beyond your ‘belief’ (ie trust) that Israel will move toward peace and a two state solution of its own accord?

This is a public comment/discussion facility.

Jenni can choose herself not to respond directly to me if she wishes. But she can have no complaint in a public forum if I respond to her posts. There is nothing uncivil here imo, besides some understandable emotion at the slaughter of hundreds of children these past weeks.

Lads – give Jenni a break. She has made her position clear. She denounces the illegal settlements and supports two independent states – no sieges or blockades. A neutral border patrol and is still formulating her thoughts on Jerusalem – what more do you want from the woman?

She has denounced all that which we are all disgusted with. She has also stated that she doesn’t feel the current leadership truly have peace in mind.

To an outsider it does look like she is being attacked for holding a different position. And *that* would be a straw man.

Thank you Shanti.

Mike – so from your three posts the way you see forward is:
1. Overthrow the Israeli Government
2. BDS
3. Demand peace talks with Fatah/PA/Hamas

Is it really that simple? Just overthrow the israeli gov, BDS and peace talks with 3 Palestinian groups? Those three things will just bring about a peaceful state solution?

We differ on BDS because I actually believe it is impossible to separate goods made by legitimate Israeli companies and those in the west bank and that it will also have an impact on Palestinians working for companies which seems very unfair on them.

We agree on 1, but you think Hamas should still be part of the negotiations. I don’t as to use your language: ” your ‘belief’ (ie trust) that Hamas will move toward peace and a two state solution of its own accord?” I just can’t see Hamas ever accepting Israel’s right to exist so they also need to go.

And on 3, I agree but without Hamas and with other mediators such as US, Egypt, Qatar & possibly Ireland

Surely you don;t seriously think it’s that simple … overthrow the israeli gov, BDS and peace talks with 3 Palestinian groups? Those three things will bring about peace?

Ha William … just saw your comment! There was a stage where he put my name into every comment he made. Thankfully he rose to the challenge that I set him … to try for 24 hours to not use my name!

Shanti, please re read Jenni ‘ s original post on this thread where she quotes a civilian casualty rate of approx 52%. She did not cite a source and is implicitly lending moral credence to the IDF actions by quoting their propaganda figures.

Jenni – I’d love it if all Israelis shared your opinions on a 2 state solution and 1967 borders – its the only way the region will see peace. I hope you put the same energy into appealing to their sensibilities on that issue than disputing IDF civilian murder statistics.

Kerill – please look back up yourself, I pointed out that Jenni failed to include her source.

Also – did the unity government proposal not include a recognition by Hamas of Israel within the internationally agreed borders or did I get that wrong?

It would be silly to rule out the possibility that Hamas could split in the same way Sinn Fein split from the IRA? After all, this paved the way for peace here.

Jenni

I have only ever proposed 2. & 3 in your list, but unlike you I will simply correct your inaccuracy, not whinge about being victimised somehow just because your views are being challenged. At best, your posts here are confused.

The question of the present Israeli government is matter for the Israeli citizens & I have never implied otherwise.

BDS amply covers the Internation sanctions I’m calling for. There is ‘overthrow’ implied in that or elsewhere in my posts.

Take note Shanti – another ‘straw man’ from Jenni.

And she has still not responded with ideas herself as to how the two state solution is to be achieved.

Good day :)