JUNIOR MINISTER JENNIFER Carroll MacNeill has said she found it “very difficult” to listen to the Dáil debate on abortion legislation during the week.
The recently appointed Minister of State for European Affairs has previously spoken about her own experiences with miscarriage.
In 2021, the Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown TD told the Dáil:
“Many of us have had miscarriages. I have had a miscarriage. It can take a long time.
“One can see on a screen one week that things are not going well and then have this confirmed the following week.
“One may need to be admitted to hospital. These things can take time and they are very emotionally draining.”
The debate in the Dáil this week came after an open letter was sent to the Taoiseach by a coalition of women’s doctors and human rights groups stating that women with crisis pregnancies were still being “forced to travel” for abortions abroad despite legislation being introduced here.
The also called for recommendations contained in a report by barrister Marie O’Shea, who reviewed the operation of the 2018 Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Act, to be implemented.
Taoiseach Simon Harris said he was awaiting proposals from the Minister for Health, which would require careful consideration. Social Democrats TD Holly Cairns criticised the government for the delays.
Speaking to The Journal in Brussels this week, Carroll MacNeill said there needs to be a whole conversation around how women are treated in maternity care, and particularly when they speak up, stating it “isn’t good enough”.
When asked about the Dáil debate on the abortion legislation review and when changes might be implemented to the law, particularly around the three-day wait period that is stipulated in legislation, she said:
“Whatever about the timing, whatever about anything else, I found it very difficult to listen to the debate in the Dáil this week, because it just reflected for me so many of those experiences of either myself, or my friends, or my family, who have gone through one or many of those different experiences that were articulated.”
“And to be honest with you, I think that’s really the conversation that should be had. How women are treated during maternity… more broadly, how women are treated in maternity hospitals, how women are treated when they complain, how women are treated when they raise concerns. To me, it isn’t good enough now. And there is a long way to go on how women are made to feel.”
“As a woman who has gone through different pregnancies, and experienced how difficult that can be, and for lots of different people, in lots of different ways, the scale of the emotion involved in the ending of any pregnancy, for whatever reason, can have lifelong implications for people,” added the minister.
The Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown TD described it as a “thing that sits” with a person and it “matters enormously”.
“I wouldn’t have known that, I suppose, without having gone through it. And I bring that perspective, as a woman, who has gone through different pregnancies,” said the minister.
While she said there are lots of women who have had perfect experiences during their pregnancies, there are many who have not.
“There really is nothing more intimate than a woman in a maternity hospital, at any stage of her pregnancy, with her baby or her unborn baby. There is nothing more intimate and there is nothing more impactful for a woman’s mental health,” she said.
The minister said she is advocating for the “most compassionate approach” and set out that she didn’t believe a divisive debate would be helpful.
The legislation happened under Fine Gael led government, but pointed out that when she joined the party “that really wasn’t on the cards”, said Carroll MacNeill.
It came about because people were brought along that way, she said, stating that “it’s hard to get to a compassionate outcome with a divisive debate. So whatever process or whatever length of time, I know where my endpoint is”.
“I’m not sure that we need to go through too much division to get there. And if it takes a little longer that’s not the worst thing,” she said.
There has been lots of speculation about Carroll MacNeill’s future and whether she could one day become party leader. Around the time that Leo Varadkar stepped down and there was talk of a leadership competition, her name came up.
There was speculation that she was willing to throw her hat into the ring and go up against Harris in a leadership contest. When asked about this, the minister remained schtum stating that she is delighted to be in her new role and is happy to be working with the new Taoiseach.
Speaking about leadership ambitions one day, she said when that question is posed to her the answer is always yes, “particularly, I think, as a woman, because if you don’t, then you’re just ruling out the question”.
The minister of state said there are so few women in politics, and if women in those roles start ruling themselves out of the top jobs, then it sends a message to other women.
When she is asked the question about leadership, she states she wants to say yes “even if I’m not interested” because I want to represent that ambition for all women.
“I’m absolutely open to everything in the future,” she said, adding later:
I’d love to have the opportunity to serve at Cabinet at a different time, of course.
She pointed out that there hasn’t been a woman Taoiseach, or a woman leader of Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil or the Green Party.
“If women who are already in the system and have experience like Heather Humphreys, or me, in a different way… if we just rule that out, what does it mean for everybody else?
“So whether or not it’s something that you’d actually actively go after… you have to just believe that these are things that are going to happen for women in Ireland, whether it’s me, or Heather Humphreys, or somebody else,” she said, adding that on the flipside, women who say they want leadership roles are often “positioned as being ambitious as though that’s a bad thing. So you sort of can’t win”.
Speaking about her time in her new role, Carroll MacNeill said one of the main issues other country representatives have said they are dealing with are migration and defense.
She said while she was in Finland meeting different senior officials, they told her the issue of migration was to the fore.
Carroll MacNeill said the very long border the country has with Russia “is a very difficult border to manage”.
“They have had to do everything they can to close that, because what they’re telling me is migrants from different parts of the world are being brought to the border and sent across.
Last year, Finland shut all passenger crossing points on its long border with Russia due to the influx of asylum-seekers from countries including Syria and Somalia. Finland accused Moscow of weaponising migration, something Russia denies.
Yesterday, European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen said the European Union would help guard Finland’s eastern border from neighbouring Russia due to their attempt to “instrumentalise migrants”.
Carroll MacNeill said migration that is not happening “naturally” or “organically” was a big topic of discussion among EU partners at the special European Commission meeting this week.
“What is really apparent to me is that all of these things are happening at the same time, and it’s very difficult for governments to map,” said the junior minister,
Different incursions are happening in an attempt to “disrupt settled western democracies from a force in the world that has a very different view of how power is used,” she said.
“The outgoing Taoiseach said that he hopes that they’re [other EU countries] all wrong about their assessment of the risk. And of course, I’m sure, they hope they’re wrong. I hope they’re wrong as well. But nevertheless, that is the political reality in so many of those different European states that are not that far away from us,” said Carroll MacNeill.
She said that in her view, it would be “appropriate” to have a more reflective or up-to- date conversation in Ireland that reflects that risk.
“Being neutral also means that you have the capacity to defend,” she said, reiterating that Ireland is militarily neutral.
“We are now in the third year of this war, it seems like it can be easy to let it slip off the radar. But the risk in Ukraine is getting more severe and that risk has been felt in a serious way by our European counterparts. They are accelerating their defense spending,” she said.
“Being neutral doesn’t mean not being able to look after yourself. I think that’s important. And I think we have to be very careful to make sure that we can do that,” she added.
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