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TAOISEACH LEO VARADKAR has said he understands the concerns some politicians might have about the proposals for unrestricted access to abortion up to 12 weeks.
However, he said having read the Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment’s report and studied the evidence, he understands the reasoning behind the limit.
A number of TDs and ministers, including Tánaiste Simon Coveney have said that while they support a referendum, they cannot support legislation that would allow abortion up to 12 weeks.
The Taoiseach was asked to respond to that perspective at an event this evening.
“I totally understand and respect that people have concerns about the all-party committee’s proposals of 12 weeks, I understand that,” Varadkar said.
I had those reservations myself at first until I studied the reasoning behind it, and having understood the reasoning behind it, it is something I strongly support and strongly endorse.
Varadkar told reporters this afternoon that there were straightforward or clearcut answers on the issue of abortion.
“We need to be very frank with people about this – there isn’t going to be certainty or absolute certainty either way. Abortion is not a black and white issue.
“Let’s not forget the case of Savita Halappanavar, when doctors who were treating her were uncertain about whether they could end that pregnancy.
“Let’s not forget the case of Ms P, the woman who was clinically dead on life support because the child she was carrying was still alive and doctors were uncertain as to whether they could take her off life support or not.”
He added:
So the idea that we have certainty now really isn’t correct. What is certain now is that a 15-year-old girl who is raped, and who is in pain and cannot end her pregnancy in Ireland – and anyone that helps her could be sent to prison for 14 years. So, is the certainty and uncertainty we have now something that we want to keep?
While Cabinet members were unanimous this week in their support to hold a referendum, senior government ministers including Coveney and Agriculture Minister Michael Creed have stated they have an issue with the 12-week mark.
Labour’s Joan Burton said yesterday that politicians that have outlined this view should provide clarity about their stance on how the issue can be addressed in the course of the debate on the legislation.
The division within government on the issue means there will need to be opposition support to ensure the 12-week law is passed in the event of a referendum returning a yes vote.
This afternoon, the Taoiseach said he did not want to see the debate “personalised” in any way. He also raised his concern about the referendum campaign, stating:
One thing that is significant is to ensure there is no foreign funding of either campaign.
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There are so many ghoulish scenarios the anti-choice fanatics are comfortable with purely on the basis of their Catholic ideology.
Things the Catholic Church opposed;
1944 – Tampons (may arouse women)
1950 – Mother & Child Scheme
1970 – Studying at Trinity College
1973 – Married women in the Civil Service
1985 – Contraception
1986 – Divorce
1993 – Decriminalisation of homosexuality
1996 – Divorce
2005 – Ferns report into child abuse
2010 – Civili Partnerships
2013 – Abortions if mother’s life was at risk
2015 – Equal Marriage
2018 – Abortion
@Alt Right Crybaby: You really can’t get it through your little head that opposition to abortion does not stem exclusively from religious belief. I’m embarrassed for you.
@Alt Right Crybaby:
I’m going to be voting to repeal the 8th but I am fed up with arguments like yours.
The vast majority of people who have reservations about abortion don’t have them for religious reasons. It’s unfair and lazy to demonize them or misrepresent their views. The next few months are going to be unbearable if both sides don’t start respecting and listening to each other
@Alt Right Crybaby: maybe Abortion might have been useful for you
@Boutros Boutros-Ghali: Ah but really, the two go hand in hand.. Truly, I know it’s what your type like to pretend since the Ryan Report, but every single prominent pro-lifer is also a devoted servant of Rome and the rest of that kid fiddling clan
@Chucky Arlaw: What’s my type? I’m an atheist, and have been since the age of 12. Are you really so closed in your world view that you can’t grasp the fact that morality and religion are distinct?
@Alt Right Crybaby: thanks but I’m not Catholic and if you knew more than 1 Catholic you would know they don’t all agree 100% with Romes view.
@Boutros Boutros-Ghali: The reason the 8th Amendment was placed in Bunreacht na hÉireann was because of the Catholic Church, the very rare and odd person who is pro-life for non-religious reasons does not allow you to discount the fact that these people are dwarfed in numbers by the footsoldiers of Christ and the Roman cult. As my list illustrates perfectly.
@Boutros Boutros-Ghali: TBH there is no other reasonable or logical explanation for the anti-choice stance. If you are opposed to abortion, you are opposed to human rights & to gender equality.
@Alt Right Crybaby: “the very rare and odd person who is pro-life for non-religious reasons does not allow you to discount the fact that these people are dwarfed in numbers by the footsoldiers of Christ and the Roman cult. As my list illustrates perfectly”
Your list doesn’t mention a single number apart from the dates, how does it illustrate anything about demographics?
@Boutros Boutros-Ghali: Yeah sure you are.. I know lots of atheists who support having catholic dogma in our national constitution
Because that’s what the 8th is – catholic dogma, pure and simple
@Steph: There is a moral explanation for opposition to terminating a pregnancy because it inconveniences you. That explanation being that it is immoral.
@Tweety McTweeter:
Get used to it, the extremes on both sides shout the loudest.
@Chucky Arlaw: I can’t help it if you don’t believe that I’m an atheist, I really can’t. The desire to protect the unborn is a moral issue.
@Steph: what the fook is gender equality
@Boutros Boutros-Ghali: You shouldn’t embarrassed for him, we should all laugh at him, empty shell of a human that he is.
@Boutros Boutros-Ghali: but you’re not “protecting” them.All that you’re doing is having the woman travel to the UK ,in which they take the ‘riskier’ surgical abortion..
@cormac o neill: ask linda
@Steph: Idiotic comment of the week. Well done.
@Francis Mc Carthy: People go to Thailand and Vietnam to abuse children. All the current laws do is make them travel. Shall we legalise paedophilia?
@Boutros Boutros-Ghali: How do you determine what is moral & immoral?
@Boutros Boutros-Ghali: You’re a bigger dope than I thought you were if your stance is based on your morals! How arrogant are you?
@Boutros Boutros-Ghali: we have legalised abortion..when did we legalise paedophelia ? .
@Steph: We do it as a society, we reach a majority consensus through debate, and this consensus is then enshrined in law (in theory at least). Many things which were viewed as perfectly fine in the past are now beyond the pale.
@Alt Right Crybaby: Ah come on now. You were slagging off the victims of a train crash a few minutes ago. Don’t think you should be preaching about morals.
@Alt Right Crybaby: Morality is an excellent basis for a stance, on moral issues.
@Francis Mc Carthy: The law as it stands regarding this issue is satisfactory to me, you are proposing changing it. Your “travel” point was to back your position up. My statement was a counter to this, as anyone can see.
@Boutros Boutros-Ghali: Morals are subjective, not objective. That’s like saying “I’m against abortion because I’m right”, such an idiotic stance, but I’m not surprised you can’t give an actual reason for being anti-women.
@…….: Nice try, I only mentioned the Republicans on the train, I didn’t even mention the accident in my comment. #ProLifeLies
@Boutros Boutros-Ghali: It does! It’s engrained. People aren’t intelligent enough to realise how conditioned they are.
@Steph: is that a serious comment? If you oppose abortion you are opposed to human rights and gender equality. What leftie liberal website did you pull that beauty from? Please give me a break. Do you not see the irony in that statement? 1. When you choose to have an abortion what is it vou choose to kill? Human life. I’m quite certain all life has equal rights. Regardless of its geographical location!
2. You do realise certain countries allow abortion due to gender selection. Usually because the parents don’t want a a girl! Please, gender equality is the basic principle that all life has equal value regardless of sex. Please explain to me how having access to an abortion enhances gender quality?
@Boutros Boutros-Ghali: and your counter point was destroyed :-)
@Alt Right Crybaby: “I’m not surprised you can’t give an actual reason for being anti-women” pathetic strawman attempt. The majority of laws are based upon morality. What’s the scientific basis for the illegality of necrophilia?
@Francis Mc Carthy: I think not.
@Boutros Boutros-Ghali: You talk some tripe Lone Hurler.
@Alt Right Crybaby: Can’t help it if he followed me on twitter, chap.
@Boutros Boutros-Ghali: You followed yourself you mean.
@Boutros Boutros-Ghali: @Boutros Boutros-Ghali: you’re happy knowing that 1800 Irish women are taking the abortion pills without medical supervision.You’re happy that over 2100 Irish women are taking the slightly riskier surgical abortion in the UK..You’re happy knowing that incest victims are being sectioned against their will..You’re happy knowing that Irish women have to take out CU loans to go to the UK to end their FFA pregnancies.You’re happy knowing that those women bring back the remains in the back of a taxi..
but your morals :)
@Steph:
Destroying life is a Human right is it? How progressive.
And what has gender equality got to do with this issue?
@Francis Mc Carthy: No, none of that makes me happy. Making it legal for them to abort their pregnancies isn’t going to make me any happier either though.
@Alt Right Crybaby: That would be incredibly stupid lol. The fact that you think I did that doesn’t say much for your own intelligence.
@Boutros Boutros-Ghali: I take it then, that when the 8th is repealed through majority consensus & abortion access is enshrined in law, you will accept it as moral? Furthermore by your definition, abortion has been accepted as moral internationally. Ireland’s legislation has judt failed to keep up with its moral code!
@Boutros Boutros-Ghali: But they WILL end their pregnancies,whether it’s wanted or not.You’re just helping that to continue.
@Eleanor of Aquitaine: The human being gets a right to protect it’s life.
@Steph: I said a majority consensus; perhaps I will be in the minority. If that happens, I will accept it as law.
@Francis Mc Carthy: See my point about Thailand.
@Alt Right Crybaby:
So what’s the moral argument for destroying Human life?
@Eleanor of Aquitaine: Your empty Catholic rhetoric went out of date over 20 years ago, you’re a contributory factor to the introduction of legal abortion into Ireland now, thank you.
@Boutros Boutros-Ghali: do we give information on where to go in Thailand to rape a child ? We do with the 14th Amendment on where to go in the UK for a safe,LEGAL abortion..
@Eleanor of Aquitaine: the HUMAN life (woman) has been given the right to protect herself from something that can cause fatal harm to her…
@Boutros Boutros-Ghali: you will have to accept it..hahaha
@Francis Mc Carthy: I thought we were talking about the 8th amendment bro.
@Francis Mc Carthy: hahahaha yes abortion is very funny
@Boutros Boutros-Ghali: you got sidetracked talking about paedophelia in Thailand…is your memory ok,hun?
@Boutros Boutros-Ghali:i was just laughing at you,not at abortion…nice try,but no cigar!
@Boutros Boutros-Ghali: i’ll say goodnight to you :)
@Francis Mc Carthy: Sure you were.
@Francis Mc Carthy: Nicely played Francis! Kudos Sir!
@Alt Right Crybaby: did your old account titus groan get deleted???
@gjpb: Tinfoil hat alert!
@Alt Right Crybaby: just you have a new account on here and you use the same type of language plus we haven’t seen him here for some time
@Chucky Arlaw: No they don’t, it’s just catholic haters like yourself who would rather believe that than accept the truth. Millions of people all over the world from every denomination and none are pro- life, that is a fact. Kiddie fiddlers as you so crudely say it, are also within every denomination and none that is also a fact.
Errr The right to life IS a Human Right you wish to remove
@Tweety McTweeter: “vast majority” you seriously believe that the vast majority of people who oppose abortion are not influenced by religion? Sorry, but that is utter nonsense.
@Tweety McTweeter: the “vast majority”!!! So you have the study figures to back your statement up or did you just assume the “vast majority” aren’t religious???
In my experience almost all apposed to repealing have been religious as are the campaign groups.
@Alt Right Crybaby: heres the news.
the mother and child scheme (if u read Noel Browne book and the background ) — the real opposition came from the rich medical establistment Merrion Square, consultant elite, who opposed this public medicine scheme as “socialised medicine”, using the Church as stalking horse, because the wealthy private consultants, wanted to keep their fees and no free state scheme competition.
The British consultants & BMA opposed the NHS exactly the same in 1948 (as Aneurin Bevan said), defending their private money.
Browne worked there then, and saw this.
Not as simplistic as your church-bashing paints it, is it?
The international abortion commercial business (Planned Parenthood, Marie Stopes, BPAS and their reps) all had the red carpet rolled out for them, at the unelected, ludicrous CIT Assembly farce, and Noones biased anti 8th Committee, and from our pro abortion media.
No tough questions on abortion profits, death toll, or new irish market.
The abortionists are rubbing their greedy bloodsoaked hands, in anticipation of the lucrative NEW Irish abortion market and profits, which our pro abortion politicians are NOW handing them.
Abortion is big lucrative business world wide, in which bereaved, regretful, women and dead babies are the victims, for lucrative profits.
This is way the racist, eugenic Planned Parenthood puts its abortion mills in black, or ethnic areas, decimating those poor, communities — for money.
The black US population is at least one fifth smaller now, than it should be, because of PPS racist, abortion dead.
PL Parthood was caught on camera, selling aborted baby body parts for money. Our media did not report this in any significant way, lest it derail their attack on the 8ths protection of the unborn.
Our anti 8th, pro abortion IFPA group (Soros funded) is affiliated to PL Phood.
IFPA has not condemned its PL P parent bodys’ aborted body parts selling, busy as they are promoting abortion and attacking the 8th.
It would be useful too, at this point, if Fine Gaels chief, anti 8th, 12 week abortion cheerleader, pharmacist Kate O’Connell TD, (she of the millionaire O’Connells Pharmacy chain) who uniquely, is well placed to comment on the business end of the abortion pill trade as she is, could give us financial figures on the projected and actual profits, generated by pharmacists in abortion regimes elsewhere, supplying abortion pills such as is proposed here, and if she envisages a lucrative new Irish market opening up for pharmacists supplying abortion pills here, with what level of projected profits generated in future years? and will the taxpayer be paying pharmacists, for supplying abortion pills, and abortions?
She did not do so, on the Noone Abortion committee, where she had much to say on abortion, but little about the dead, aborted, child involved.
How many unborn children will die by Irish pharmacy supplied abortion pills, over 5, 10, 15 years, does she estimate ? How much profit will this generate ?
Note; after the same sex marraige approval here, very quickly within weeks, 4 of the largest surrogate baby suppliers (from the US) and their lawyers, came here and started immediately examining the surrogate baby business NEW, legal market here for profitability. Why ?
That market, among same sex couples, always booms in any country where same sex marraige is legalised . Hence the sudden interest. Theres money in it.
The Irish abortion market won’t be any different, to the international abortion profit chasers. Thats why they (Soros and co) fund their anti 8th pals here to dump the obstacle of the 8th from their profit path.
The Catholic Church, with many others, religious and non-religious, despite its many past mistakes and faults, courageously defends unborn human babies from being aborted to death NOW in 2018. Their position on conception start of a human life, is 100% scientifically, embryologically and genetically backed correct.
- this is why our intolerant, aggressive secular, pro abortion media, and other anti Catholic, pro abortion bigots, attack the prolife Church opposition to abortion of children.
Remember that when u vote. to keep the 8th.
Fine Gael proposes replacing the 8ths protection, with unrestricted 12 week abortion (which then, of course, will be increased by politicians).
Keep the 8th. We need better proposals than the12 week abortion on demand replacing it, which Fine Gaels O’Connell and their anti 8th, pro abortion pals propose.
Its a lie to say that the Catholic Church, in 2013 or any other time, “opposed abortion if the mothers life is at risk”.
In practice, our maternal care is now so good, that such circumstances very rarely arise.
Our doctors ALWAYS favour the mother, should this very rare circumstance ever arise, in all hospitals, Catholic or not. Thats how our care for mums and babies works in practice. They save two lives.
Thats the true reality. NO doctor, or mother, has EVER been prosecuted for this, despite the hysterical pro abortion, anti 8th lobbys ranting, on this red abortion herring.
@Alt Right Crybaby: You have an unhealthy obsession with the catholic church, you could and should seek professional help. It is not only the catholic church that opposes abortion. Religions all over the world oppose abortion, people with no religion oppose abortion.
@Francis Mc Carthy: thousands of people leave Ireland to engage in child abuse in other countries. It’s still a crime in Ireland.
Your theory is flawed, because something is tolerated abroad does not mean we should tolerate it here. We make our laws based on our moral compass.
And despite the claims above, it’s not a religious thing. I simple can’t agree with abortion as a form of birth control because I see each life as being precious and deserving of a chance.
@Steph: actually it’s the opposite, we agree with human rights but unlike you we don’t place one person’s right to avoid 9 months of pregnancy above another’s right to life
Leaving religion out of it.
We live in an unequal society. There’s no reason women shouldn’t make their minds up about their own bodies. Government shouldn’t be responsible for that.
I’m voting yes so my daughters will be equal. They may never need to seek one. But if they do. It’s their business. I trust them.
@OU812: this isn’t just about a woman’s body, this is about a baby’s body also.
@Thomas O’ Donnell:
It’s not a baby at this stage.
@OU812: at what stage it becomes a baby?
@Krzysiek Wisniewski: Don’t you do biology in school?
@Krzysiek Wisniewski:
It’s up to you to educate yourself. On these matters, not me. Check your science books.
@OU812:
Maybe you should educate yourself…
The developing human being from conception is an unique lifeform, it is human, it has its own DNA and body, and is alive.
This developing human being is gestating within the mothers body, it is not part of the mothers body, they are unique and distinct from each other.
This is simple science.
Claims that it is the mothers body are lies, misrepresentations, misinformation…..and worst this is done deliberately.
In our constitution, we protect unborn human beings and grant them human rights like everyone else. This is perfectly reasonable, you cannot kill other human beings for good reasons, they have rights to life the same as you.
Any argument designed to reduce an unborn human being to a sub human level, is disgusting to me. It is wrong on every level….and morally bankrupt.
Extreme situations exist, and rarely an abortion is justified, this should be tightly controlled to prevent the unnecessary killing of human life.
How is travelling to the UK such a big deal? it is cheap, easy and the healthcare standards are higher……
@OU812: what about the babies who get killed in abortions ? U OK with that ? Wheres their “equality ” of life ?
300,000 dead, aborted babies NOW each year. Their mothers had a choice. Their babies did not- they always end dead by abortion.
“trusting women” ,”equality”? = glib, trite language, pro abortion rhetoric, hiding a bloody abortion reality.
Bring TV cameras into abortion mills now. Show the reality. Dump the lying rhetoric.
So why not specify and limit abortion to the hard case circumstances if you know what they are instead as of using them to justify general abortion. ?
@Tom Molloy: because we need to trust women to make smart decisions about their own bodies and futures.
Religion shouldn’t make this decision.
Government shouldn’t make this decision.
Men shouldn’t make this decision.
Women should. They’re the ones it affects.
@Tom Molloy: So you want to put specific scenarios in our constitution now?
That is utterly ridiculous. And how do you intend for people to prove rape or incest in the time allotted?
@OU812: it’s not just a woman’s choice. The changes make zero provision for fathers to have any say whatsoever. Are we so blinded by our past that we think the other side of the line is best rather than meeting in the middle.
@Phil Swan: When the father is carrying a child in his uterus then he gets to make the final call..
@Phil Swan: the final decision is the woman’s.There is no father until she gives birth.
@Phil Swan: the father doesn’t have to endure the pregnancy. And can walk away if he wishes.
The woman also deserves these rights.
@OU812: You are so righteous on your platform. Not all people (male and female) can be trusted to make smart decisions.
@Nick Drake: It’s interesting that you think “not all people (male and female) can be trusted to make smart decisions”, while having no issue with them becoming parents.
@Tom Molloy: why make woman victims to take control of their bodies?
@Nick Drake: I’m far from righteous. I’m flawed and make mistakes all the time, but I know that women are intelligent people who should be trusted to make decisions on matters that affect them directly without outside influence.
@Nick Drake: No, not all people make smart decisions, but that doesn’t mean we should make all peoples decisions
@OU812: I think you will find it affects the baby’s body even more.
@Eric De Red: as stated above. Not a baby at this point.
@OU812:
A baby is a very young child – even unborn, a developing human being is a child of each parent, and is very young, and is human.
Therefore it can be described correctly as a baby…..
Just as a grown adult can be called someones child, many words can be used to describe humans at different ages, however they are always human beings just with different ages and stages of development or decay.
@Tom Molloy: coz’ the hard cases are the thin abortion wedge needed to prise open the abortion floodgates, as happened in UK, and elsewhere. Same pattern.
Pro aborts exploiting hard cases (Savita, X case) to push their real abortion on demand agenda,
with our pro abortion media conditioning a gullible electorate to buy it. keep the 8ths protedtion, don’t trust our pro abortion politicians.
@OU812: the dead baby is THE most affected. He/she gets killed to death by abortion.
yeh, 300,000 dead aborted babies in the UK now yearly, by your glib, trite “trusting women to make smart decisions” nonsense. sorry, that won’t wash.
90% Downs kids dead by UK abortions.
All these women are so saintly, moral “smart” and “compassionate” aren’t they ? not a selfish, self serving, one amongst them, aborting her baby for convenience, coz it inconveniences her lifestyle/career plans/figure/holiday plans, on “mental health ” excuse grounds ? ALL 300,000 heroic abortion saints yearly, dumping their babies in the abortion trash ? having multiple, repeat abortions of their conceived babies ?
Give us a break.
98% of aborted UK babies are healthy, viable but killed for convenience of the mother.
Many of them, grieving later, regret believing the pro abortion lies they were fed by pro abortion “feminists”.
They do deserve our support, love, and embrace in their grieve for their lost child. The pro abortion mouths who fooled them, don’t.
Less than 2% are FFA cases, but STILL used by pro aborts to justify all the killing.
Give us a break with the “trusting women” justification, it won’t wash.
@OU812: rubbish.
a child, unborn, with its own unique genetic blueprint, in all its cells – from conception.
you, and your likes, advocate killing him/her by abortion.When does it start becoming human ?
@OU812:
P.S. you made a statement asserting that all women are intelligent.
Just like men, women, young and old – humans have a range of different intelligence. Some are intelligent, some are stupid, some are geniuses some are sub normal intelligence etc….
There is a range that applies to women like every human being on the planet – claiming all are intelligent is ridiculous.
@OU812: we have laws that state you can’t smoke in a car when a child is present so no I don’t trust all women to make the right choice
A 15-year old girl who is raped is not a mother, she’s a victim, so how could the 8th apply without further consideration. She might choose to be a mother in spite of it all but it shouldn’t be forced upon her, least of all by the constitution of a modern secular state.
I personally think it shouldn’t be forced upon anyone, but this should become a matter of common law, not the constitution.
@Mick Tobin: the reason for so few comments shows how confused people are. Whether it’s right or it’s wrong is a personal opinion. The government don’t have jurisdiction over personal opinions. And to that cause…should allow women and their partners to make their own free decisions.
Even if someone objects…they can carry on as is at the moment.
Nobody is making any woman abort. They are just being given the choice. And that’s not an easy choice.
@jenni: This may be a bit of a stretch, but I think part of that confusion is due to the contingency of life. We like to think we are necessarily here, but at some point I realized I wouldn’t have existed if my old man had given another thrust. That seriously bothered me for a while, but I’m alright with it now. And it liberalized my views on topics such as this.
@Mick Tobin: I think the rape of a young girl that results in pregnancy does warrant a termination, as does the case of rape of any woman if she so choses.
@Mick Tobin: i shouldn’t be alive right now myself, for a variety of reasons, over multiple occasions, from before i was born.. sure, i’m darned lucky.. but if i wasn’t here, i’d never know the difference.
i like to think that, had my parents known how troublesome my birth was going to be, and how unlikely it was that i would turn out as well as i did, they would have aborted. it would have saved a lot of worry and hassle at the time, and would have saved my mother from ongoing high blood pressure.
i nearly killed both me and mum in being born. and doctors advised my parents to prepare for me to die soon after i was born… and said that if i lived, expect me to be blind, deaf, mute, brain damaged or some combination.. by sheer luck, i’m alive and none of those things occurred… however, i feel guilty over what i’ve put my mother through health-wise since then. especially as the pregnancy was an easy one.
@Nick Drake: so it’s not the abortion it’s the type of sex the woman has?
@Mick Tobin: The age does not really matter, you are using the worst scenario, “15 year old, raped”. What about all the 15 year olds who are having consensual sex, Why could the 15 year old rape victim not get the morning after pill, just like all the 15,20,25,30, 40 year old women who have consensual sex do.
@Mick Tobin: this isn’t about one case or person. Its for our whole society, all our future unborn lives (or death).
if you remove the 8ths protection, you open the floodgates of abortion on Ireland, ever increasing, at the hands of our spineless politicians.
Trust politicians on abortion ? Crazy.
Abortions have always been around and always will be so it’s best that they’re procured in a safe environment..
With the 12 week rule to allow abortion I think repeal referendum will fail….They will have to try again in 3-5 years……
@John003: polls say otherwise..
@John003: and at least another 25,000 Irish women will have ended their pregnancies by then..16,000 in the UK and 9,000 here..
@John003: 12 weeks is pretty low compared to other places. In the UK, it’s 24 weeks.
@Chucky Arlaw: Polls down from 75% support to just 55% and still falling.
@Chucky Arlaw: Don’t trust the polls chucky. The side that the media work for will always be ahead in the polls, everybody knows that. That is the very reason that nobody pays attention to the polls.
@Chucky Arlaw:
What did the polls say about Brexit?
What did the polls say about Trump?
The biased PR machine that manipulate polls to change public opinion are failing in recent years.
People do not trust them, or the agendas of governments, who consistently demonstrate contempt for the people they govern and focus on corporations and vested interests.
Leo announced all this abortion debate to disrate from disclosures tribunal – where corruption at highest levels and incompetence is being exposed.
It boils down to whether you believe human life should be protected OR unborn humans should have no right to life and can be killed at the whim of the mother – irrespective of her mental state, or even if her reasons are valid – or consider the unborn baby at all or the father…..
@Francis Mc Carthy: abortions are NEVER safe for the baby killed in one. Never ever. They ALWAYS die.
so Keep the 8th to protect them. Our politicians won’t.
they need better, less killing, proposals
Abortion should not be limited to the hard casesMistakes happen, contraception fails, its life. When an unwanted pregnancy occurs in this country one gender is forced to go through with a pregnancy, give birth & then constitutionally becomes responsible for the care & welfare of the child (Another lovely inclusion in our misogynistic constitution). The other gender is merely obliged to make a paltry financial contribution. The inherent gender inequality in this country needs to end.
I am a mother by choice, I want my daughter to be able to make that decision when & if she is ready #repeal
@Steph: You’re smart, of course you are correct, only one gender can go through pregnancy. The other gender, male like me for instance, while doesn’t pregnant and give birth, makes a lot more than than just a paltry financial contribution. And course any parent is responsible for the care and well being of their child, is this a new concept to you? What kind of disturbed environment do you live in to make such a cynical comment?
@Nick Drake: Are you aware of our constitution? Are you aware of what obligations are placed on parents by our constitution & legislative system? Take some time to educate yourself. My statement is based on fact & not cynicism.
@Steph: So what exactly are you trying to say? You want to change the constitution so the mother is not responsible for her child once it is born? You sound very bitter.
@Steph: I’m well educated, read your post, then read my reply, my mind is not that closed to narrow it the argument down to a simple matter of a constitution. If you are a parent, then, yes you are obliged, as a human being to be responsible for that child, do you not agree? No constitution can ever pretend to be the caretaker of that fact.
@Dj: oh I am bitter DJ. Even more so because I’m a mother to a female! I don’t wanr her growing up in a country that treats women as second class citizens who can’t be trusted with their own bodies!
@Nick Drake: I think you need a dose of reality
@Steph: I will be a future mother too I hope. I want to raise my children in such a way as to take responsibility for their actions, including actions that involve their body. The decision is already made when you have intimacy–for the potential of pregnancy. After that it is no longer about choice. You’re just choosing to escape the responsibility of your decision, and a human life is lost as a result. You cannot justify abortion and simply say ‘it’s life, mistakes happen’. There is NOTHING liberating about tearing your baby from your own womb.
@Steph: “choice” ? what “choice” do babies killed by abortion get, exactly ? Only death.
I’ll try to stay on topic. If a woman has been raped, what good will an abortion do her? It’s not going to undo the rape. There’s no evidence it will reduce the risk of suicide (in fact there’s tentative evidence to the contrary). Finally, why should an unborn child, whose father is a rapist be less protected under the constitution/the law than the rest of us?
@Thomas O’ Donnell: There is clear evidence it reduces the risk of suicide in instances where the pregnancy is the cause of the suicidal ideation!!!
And I don’t think women should be forced (ie strapped to a chair all day everyday in a cell as happens now when rape victims become suicidal) to carry a pregnancy to term for nine months!! When it is is every day a horrific reminder of what happened to her
And that’s not even getting into the fact that pregnancy is a terrible thing to go through. You push a bowling ball out your a**e and then we can talk about ‘whaat good will an abortion do her’
@Thomas O’ Donnell: perhaps because as the pregnancy develops she is reminded day after day of her ideal. Using her as an incubator is cruel. Why do you want control over her body?
@Brian Madden: I don’t want control over anyone’s body. In fact I don’t think anyone should have absolute control over someone else’s body, which is why I’m against abortion.
@Thomas O’ Donnell: then the other “body” cannot use another persons body without their ongoing consent,which is why i’m in favour of abortion..
@Chucky Arlaw: Interesting comment, pregnancy is a terrible thing to go through, and that is a fact?
@Nick Drake: it shouldn’t be forced on anybody
@Thomas O’ Donnell: yeah of course you do. You want to control a woman’s body. Just admit it. I think it’s quite alarming that so many men want to force women to endure a pregnancy against her will. We need to trust women and not control them.
@Thomas O’ Donnell: It is not up to you to decide the best course of action for a person who has become pregnant through rape. All victims of sexual violence need to be treated with compassion & any decisions they make need to be respected. I am assuming from your name that this is a situation that you will never experience. Therefore, let me impart that a person who has experienced sexual violence in the form of rape should not also have to experience the judgement of others because they may make a decision you do not understand nor agree with. I was conceived through rape. As a foetus neither constitutional nor legislative law should have prioritised my rights over my mother’s. That is what Article 40.3.3 does. It is wrong. It has been wrong for thirty-five years. It needs to be repealed
@Thomas O’ Donnell: so you don’t want control over anyone’s body except the raped woman’s. She does not consent to being pregnant and you forcing her to remain pregnant is raping her all over again. But you don’t seem to think about that once the baby is born. You don’t seem to care about what happens to that after it’s born either.
@Nick Drake: pregnancy is one of the worst things that can happen to a body..
morning sickness that lasts for months, gestational diabetes, ripping from front to back during birth and having to be stitched back up, being left in continent for the rest of your life, vaginal prolapse, all the common issues, some of which don’t leave, post partum depression, post partum psychosis, trouble bonding, lack of sleep, extreme pain…
people rarely talk about how horrific pregnancy can be to a body during a healthy, easy pregnancy, which includes what i’ve listed above..
on top of all of that, other women with further issues can suffer more..
i have issues with muscles that mean as long as they don’t get overstressed, all is fine… but stressing them results in the loss of movement for a period of time.. days, weeks, at one point, months..
pregnancy will severely stress the affected muscles for me, as will holding a baby. the problem is that there is no way of knowing how long the effects will last until i regain the use of the affected muscles. the loss of movement means that i lose most of my ability to care for myself, meaning i require care from others. last time i was affected, it was a week and a half following a fall, and i had to move home with my parents, because i couldn’t even feed myself.
as long as i avoid triggers, my condition doesn’t affect me at all. but anything can be a trigger, if not handled properly.. babies are triggers, certain types of toilet flushers are triggers, a bus breaking too hard once triggered my condition..
@Felicity Hensen: Do you realize what you are saying and how stupid it sounds??You are actually complaining because you were born and are now a living breathing adult, you are saying your mother should have had the right to abort you. Either you are making this story up or you are stark raving mad.
@Thomas O’ Donnell: and what good will continuing the pregnancy do? No women should have to go through either instances
@Tom&Gerry: What I said, if you cared to reread it. Was that a person made pregnant through rape should have any and all options available to them, and that they should not be judged for whichever one they choose. I have spoken at length to my mother about her experience, and every time it confirms that any person made pregnant through rape should have, as I just said, any and all options available to them. You are clearly a lucky individual who has not experienced a situation where all choice has been taken from you. My mother experienced that firstly when she was raped, secondly when she was told she’d be staying pregnant, and thirdly when she was made marry her rapist. This is not a made up story, nor is it one that is rare.
@Francis Mc Carthy: Pregnancy is not forced on any woman. The woman always has the choice to terminate within the legal time frame. But she would have to travel to England and that is just too inconvenient so they want it legalized here in Ireland.
@Felicity Hensen: If you are talking about such a scenario happening here in Ireland then that would indeed be very rare in that i have never heard of anyone being forced to marry her rapist. I have heard of such cases in India Pakistan and other Muslim countries but never here. My apologies for being so insensitive, Your Mother must be a great woman to survive such a terrible outrage and sentence.
@Deborah Behan: Stop being so melodramatic, nobody is forced to go through an unwanted pregnancy. Those days are over a long long time ago. Girls and women fly to England regularly to have abortions and nobody stops them. But you want it brought here, because it is too inconvenient to fly to England. This is not about 15 year old rape victims. rape victims come in all ages and 15 year old girls have consensual sex regularly. It is about bringing abortion into Ireland so women wont have to travel to England.
@Tom&Gerry: Not hearing about something does not mean it doesn’t happen. The level of sexual violence experienced by people is only beginning to come to light, and even then it will never be the full story. Thank you. She is a tremendously strong and dignified person. Unfortunately, that incident was only the start of her ordeal.
@Tom&Gerry: You realise that in order to travel for abortion women need money for more than just that, right? It can be prohibitively expensive once all costs are factored in, which results in tgem being forced to stay pregnant.
Availability here means that those women would have a better chance at affordability. Travel, accomodation, exchange rates are all removed from the equation.
If i somehow ended up pregnant, i would need an abortion to prevent the pregnancy from causing disability due to current conditions. I have researched costs, and even factoring in the fact that i can get free accommodation in the uk, i still couldnt afford it.
I dont think it should be available free. I would reccomend a €500 cost. That would make people stop and think, but wouldnt be outrageous either. Oh, and im speaking as someone who is having to choose between spending €250 on birth control, or renewing an important qualification. I can only afford one..
@Tom&Gerry: a pregnancy CAN be forced on women.Ever hear of RAPE ? Ever hear of men controlling their partners ?
@Tom&Gerry: Women DO have abortions here.We want them to have it in a safe,legal setting in their own country..Why do you want Irish women to have the slightly riskier abortions ?
@Brian Madden:
If is not about controlling someones body – it is about protecting the human rights of unborn humans, and protecting their right to life, just like your is protected, and every other person.
Is it controlling your body to say you cannot use your body to murder someone else, either by physically attacking them or showing them. It is controlling the balance of rights between individuals in a civilised society.
And respecting all human life, and preventing killing of people – while balancing the rights of the individuals involved
I.e. if a situation arises where a threat to the mothers life arises, the mothers right to life should have precedence as she was here first.
Rape is a difficult one – the mother herself is a victim – but so is the child – and it is biological child of the mother as much as the rapist. Does this child deserve to die as a result of the actions of its criminal father?
The child can be given for adoption, claims of mothers suicide are evidence of mental illness…..probably due to the trauma of being attacked and raped, however still not a rational balanced mind capable of objective and sound judgement.
@Chucky Arlaw: the brave women victims of rape, Rebecca Kiessling , who kept and loved their kids, came to Ireland to speak and tell their story of surviving rape, –the Unbroken women.
They were attacked, their venues and hotel staff threatened, by anti 8th repeal thugs.
These brave rape victims bravely still told their survival story, them and their kids, who survived abortion.
The repeal, anti 8th thugs attacked these rape victims (google Unbroken, Rebecca Kiessling).
See details on the excellent Youth Defence website, with pictures of anti 8th vandals in action, as they tried unsuccessfully to gag these brave women. Cowardly repeal thugs.
@Mick Rick Jones: I’m afraid to tell you that none of the allegations you are making regarding how “they were attacked, their venues and hotel staff threatened” has any supporting evidence. All allegations were investigated, none were substantiated. My mother survived rape. I was conceived through rape. Both of us support a victims right to choose the best course of action for them should they become pregnant through rape, including the right to choose to terminate the pregnancy. Do not presume to speak on behalf of all victims of rape. Do not presume to speak on behalf of all people conceived through rape. All survivors of rape have the right to tell their story. What they do not have is the right to remove choice from other people should they become pregnant (through rape).
@Francis Mc Carthy: Irish women have been travelling to England for years to have abortions, England is not a third world country so i would imagine their abortion clinics are sterile hygienic and safe, from the thousands of women that have traveled for abortions, how many have become ill or died?
You might want abortion to become a common practice in this country but millions of Irish people do not.
It’s a personal choice and if a woman wants one, whatever her reason, that’s her decision to make & the option should be available. If you don’t want one, you don’t need to worry.
@Keith McDonagh: Unless you are the person being aborted.
@Eric De Red: How does a 12 week gestational foetus worry?
@DaisyChainsaw: it worries after it googles what worry means..
@Fake Avast:
It is a human being just like you, only younger……
Deciding it is ok to kill other humans simply based on age does not make sense, why not kill all people over a certain age – bring in legislation to dehumanise them like you are suggesting a unborn human isnt human.
Human rights in Ireland are ahead of the world, in 50 years people will be disgusted at attitudes like yours dehumanising and justifying killing unborn children. Without any consideration of the right to life of the child, or the wishes of the father, whose child it also is…..
@Keith McDonagh: yeh u do.
abortion kills innocent children. Its everybodys business.
only the 8th will protect them now. NOT politicians, definately.
@Fake Avast: How many women do you know apart from pro-choice groups that call their unborn babies a foetus.
There’s a big difference between a crisis pregnacy and a ‘mistake’ on a Saturday night. I really don’t like the way the two scenarios are been lumped together, if your doctor tells you you are carrying an unviable pregnancy, your life is in danger or you are a victim of rape, then absolutely there should be no restrictions for that mother but let’s not pretend that’s what repealing the 8th is all about.
@selfsustainable: Exactly. Laws are not made based on hard cases.
@selfsustainable: Repealing the 8th is about wholesale abortion. We can now eliminate all the imperfect and generally inconvenient people from our society. We bang on about “a woman’s choice” as if a woman has no choice about pregnancy. We want choices without responsibility.
And as for the child, who cares how painful his or her death actually is.
@Eric De Red: How painful is it at 12 weeks gestation? How painful a death is a miscarriage?
@selfsustainable: so it’s more about the type of sex the women have if you will permit them to abort or punish them by making them parents. Of course if that Saturday night fling would be alright if it was with you wouldn’t it? You absolute hypocrite.
@DaisyChainsaw: Whay a stupid answer.
@DaisyChainsaw: You will never know will you?
@Eric De Red: the day you have to carry a pregnancy after a Saturday night fling will give you full right to comment on the issue. It’s about choice…is it that hard to get your head around?
@Deborah Behan: If people are going out with the intentions of hooking up with someone they fancy, they should go prepared, be responsible for your own actions, take precautions, do what George Hook said and take personal responsibility. You wouldn’t cross the road without looking would you?
@Breda Jennings: There is no excuse for any woman to be pregnant after a Saturday night fling, ever hear of contraceptives and the morning after pill, all fully available.
@Tom&Gerry: There is no excuse for a person capable of getting another person pregnant not taking full responsibility for their actions. Condoms are readily available.
@Tom&Gerry: Does a headless chicken feel pain ?
@selfsustainable: its about unrestricted abortion on demand to 12 weeks now, to be expanded later.
Viable, healthy babies -aborted to death.
don’t trust politicians with their lives. Keep the 8th.
@Felicity Hensen: exactly.
@Francis Mc Carthy: You would have to ask the chicken..
@Tom&Gerry: i know someone that got pregnant despite the pill, the morning after pill AND a condom..
so… is someone who uses that much birth control irresponsible in getting pregnant? and this was with their partner, not just a “hook-up”..
hearing that birth control can fail so spectacularly is why i’m a virgin at 30, whilst being on birth control and seeking sterilisation.. given the attitudes in this country, though, i’ll probably be in my 70s before i’m considered old enough for sterilisation… (apparently, being 30, and having known since you were a child that you never wanted kids, along with having conditions that pregnancy could worsen to the point of causing permanent disability, as well as dealing with enough babies to know they’re not the right choice for me, all means that i’m not the right sort of candidate for sterilisation… in fact, it all means that, according to a gynaecologist, i need to have at least 5 children…then i MIGHT be considered a viable candidate…of course, by that point, i would also be disabled with severely restricted movement…but hey, babies before all else, right?)
Firstly, Savita Halappanavar died of sepsis, because she was not administered antibiotics on time when she developed an infection. Abortion would NOT have saved her life, the reason for her death is due to stupidity of doctors who failed to diagnose her and give her treatment. When Savita initially asked for an abortion, there was no infection or anything wrong with her physically.
Secondly, a 15 year old is as well developed physically as a 17 year old. Age of consent. Is he making a point about the age of a girl when she is pregnant, or rape as a justification for abortion? Reality is, majority of women that undergo abortion are in their 20’s/30’s who are married or in a relationship.
@Ania_on_coffee: Savita developed sepsis bevause her cervix was allowed be dilated for days due to a foetal heartbeat. She was miscarrying when she entered the hospital, and the dying foetus was prioritised over her. If she had been granted the abortion when she had requested one, her cervix would have closed, she would not have been exposed to infection, and she would be alive. The “stupidity of doctors” for “failing to diagnose” is a secondary issue.
@Felicity Hensen: Or she could have been administered antibiotics. There was no reason to kill her baby.
@Felicity Hensen: She was 17 weeks pregnant when she developed sepsis! The baby had already developed organs and body parts and the foetus is very obviously human. The abortion itself would have been traumatic on her body and the baby would have suffered a lot of pain.
Also, when the woman requested abortion, as I said – there was no infection. She complained to a GP about specific symptoms, but she was not taken seriously enough, and she was not given medical treatment. After that she developed an infection, it was not spotted, and the woman quickly developed sepsis. If she was given antibiotics on time, she and her baby would have survived. The failure to give her medical treatment is NOT a secondary issue. There is no proof that abortion would have saved her from a sepsis.
@Ania_on_coffee: Are you saying thst Savita went & asked for an abortion for a planned & wanted child for no reason? She was admitted to hospital despite their being nothing physically wrong with her? Get a grip
@Eric De Red: You are completely devoid of any clue (as well as human decency).
@Steph: I’ve just read again an article of what happened. Savita had symptoms of that were indicative of a miscarriage (not her own fatality) even though the baby was alive and had a beating heart. Savita thought the baby was dead in her womb, but it wasn’t. My question is why was she not taken seriously immediately when she was telling the GP about her symptoms and pain? Abortion was not the answer, as there were medicines that she should have taken.
@Felicity Hensen: in the inquest into her death it states that when she asked the consultant for an abortion he said that if he were to do so at that time it would introduce huge risk to her life causing possible haemorrhage or infection and that he felt at that time the best safest thing to do was to give her pain killers and wait … believe me felicity if he believed her life was in active danger at that moment he would have induced her knowing the baby would die but it would have been necessary. This is ok in healthcare. those who are pro life have no issues with this practice. When a woman’s life is in danger it’s ok to induce even if the baby will die. This happens all the time in Irish hospitals. It’s sad for the unborn life and the parents and family. Women’s lives are not secondary to their baby. But the abortion crowd hijacked this case and years later still try to cling on. The term.abortion is used for the deliberate ending of the unborns life. Try telling women who sadly lose their babies due to complications who needed to be induced that they had an abortion. The pro abortion side is based and twisted in lies and when challenged they cant debate but instead just get nasty and personal.
@Ania_on_coffee: well said. Some common sense finally.
@Ania_on_coffee:
most abortions are NOT crisis emergencies, they are for inconvenience reasons, self serving not the baby, using “mental health clause” to justify.
300,000 yearly in UK now, less than 2% FFA. 90% of Downs UK babies aborted to death.
Spare us the trite, glib, slogans “trust women” abortion pushing nonsense. We see it in action in Britain.
Who will have decided if a rape has occurred. Surely this requires a full court hearing and legal arse to decide. That takes up to 12 months. With due respects any woman can use this to avail of an abortion.
@Paul Coughlan: sorry. That’s legal case.
@Paul Coughlan: Oh dear lord the horror!! Imagine, having to trust women to make a decision for themselves about their own bodies!!
How will they do it without men like you there to kindly (or not so kindly, see Magdalene Laundries etc) tell them exactly what to do
@Chucky Arlaw: is it just seven abortions that have been carried out since 2014 under the ‘risk of suicide clause’ …? them floodgates will open,the “pro lifers” said
@Chucky Arlaw: are you the judge of a woman saying she was raped and go ahead with abortion. Requires normal investigation and conviction. Or are you suggesting kangaroo courts.
@Paul Coughlan: We could always chuck her in a lake… If she sinks, she was raped, if she floats she wasn’t and should be punished as a liar.
It worked well for us in previous times.
@Paul Coughlan: well then imagine being so desperate that you would pretend to be raped to get control over your own body? Imagine telling a man that we would have a vote in his body not him?
@DaisyChainsaw: Do you think it is impossible for women to make up rape stories.
@Tom&Gerry: The instances of females falsely claiming to have been raped is eclipsed by the males accused of rape who deny the event.
@Chucky Arlaw:
It is a decision that kills another human being – you seem to be confused and believe a developing baby in the womb is a part of the mothers body.
This is incorrect, it is an independent life with its own DNA, gestating inside the mothers body – not part of the mothers body.
Just like with the image bombs – unborn children were also victims of the bombing – they were not dehumanised and called – organic biowaste inside the mothers body…….obviously a stupid position to take.
Murder is illegal, unless in self defence – this needs to be tested in court and “trusting men or women” to make the decisions about ending another humans life is simply crazy
@Paul Coughlan: why create another rape victim – the innocent aborted, dead baby ?
whats their crime ?
@Chucky Arlaw: get up to date.
try looking inside the abortion mills, in the abortionist trash can, NOW. bring the RTE, TV3 cameras there.
Reading the above article has Leo forgotten all he learnt in med school
1.Ms. Halappanaver RIP had sepsis it wasn’t picked up on time because her blood results were not looked at had it been picked up she could have been treated but it wasn’t sepsis can be cured if picked up on time.
2.Has Leo ever heard of the morning after pill for rape victims. As a precaution they could walk in to a chemist and get it they would not even have to report the crime or wait and see if they were pregnant.
3. In the case of that poor woman who was in a coma RIP did anyone consider that she might have wanted to remain on life support to give her baby a chance to live as any mother would I understand that there were a number of cases in the same circumstances where the baby survived.
Leo seems to have selective amnesia on medical facts which he should know well just to suit his AGENDA
@MichaelandMary O’Grady:
1. How did sepsis occur? Because she was miscarrying for days and infection took hold in her open vagina.
2. Not even the MAP is 100% effective. No contraceptive is.
3. The woman wasn’t in a coma, she was brain dead and physically rotting so no foetus that early into the pregnancy would have survived.
@DaisyChainsaw: people who are not pregnant often get sepsis it is not exclusive to pregnancy and it can be cured if found on time.
@DaisyChainsaw: by the way that was a DISGUSTING and untrue comment about that poor woman on life support. Many people are on life support for long periods of time. It is easy to see how you can support the killing of unborn babies when you can make such a DISGUSTING comment about her That lady has a family who could be reading what you said about her. Shame on you.
@MichaelandMary O’Grady: Her family were the ones who wanted life support switched off http://www.thejournal.ie/life-support-clinically-dead-woman-judgement-1852228-Dec2014/
“…the somatic support being provided is being maintained at a “hugely destructive cost to both her remains and to the feelings and sensitivities of her family and loved ones”.
The condition of the mother is failing at such a rate and to such a degree that it will not be possible for the pregnancy to progress much further or to a point where any form of live birth will be possible. As one doctor put it, the unborn child is not yet in distress but it is facing into a “perfect storm” from which is has no realistic prospect of emerging alive. It has nothing but distress and death in prospect.”
@DaisyChainsaw: we all know abortion is 100% effective it KILLS the baby. Google mother’s on life support who gave birth.
1. twins born to woman on life support for 123 days 11th July 2017.
2. 14th Nov 2013 baby born to woman on life support
@MichaelandMary O’Grady: abortion ends a pregnancy.The embryo or the foetus will not survive inside or outside of the womb.Get over it.
@MichaelandMary O’Grady: Well said!! Leo and his cronies really are a hateful lot.
@DaisyChainsaw: 3 different reports found that sepsis, neglect, 13 missed chances to avert her sepsis, killed Savita.
NOT Irish abortion law, or the 8th, which has saved thousands of lives.
Try reading the 3 reports.
Its nauseating hypocrisy how pro abortion, anti 8th fanatics STILL exploit poor Savitas sad death, to push for aborting more babies. They still do, as
we see, despite the case facts.
Anti 8TH, pro abortion ghouls using still exploitinf Savita to push abortion. They advocate killing babies by abortion, out the other side of their hypocritical mouth.
Some “compassion”.
I wonder if this idiot even thinks about what he is saying. Its like having George W running the country. He wants to be able to change the law so a 15 year old rape victim can be mutilated depending of course on the clinic she can afford but not once has he or any of his vipers mentioned the provision of a single penny to help her afterwards. Whether she gives birth or not she will need years of help but no let’s allow a juvenile or an angry parent make a wild decision to kill a child, give them zero aftercare and get them on their way because the populous opinion today is pro choice. I think we’re missing the bigger picture here and being duped, people in 3rd world countries with zero choice on anything are more content than us and that’s a fact.
@Phil Swan: It’s not a ‘mutilation’, in fact a D&C is a very simple and risk-free surgery
And literally no one is buying that you’re concerned about the victims of rape – I’d trust a ‘juvenile or an angry parent making a wild decision’ over you, when it’s their body that the decision concerns..
@Chucky Arlaw: it’s hardly “risk free” if the baby dies
@Phil Swan: you realise that the “mutilation” is already a routine procedure carried out in Ireland in cases of miscarriage?
@Chucky Arlaw: Yes it’s a simple procedure if the practitioner knows what he/she is doing. Forceps are inserted through the enlarged cervix into the uterus. The body parts are grasped at random with a large, long toothed grasping clamp. With the large, long toothed grasping clamp, the practitioner twists the limbs and body parts — and pulls them from the body — and pulls the body parts out of the vaginal canal. The remaining body parts, with the exception of the head, are grasped and pulled out. During this procedure, perforation of the uterus is possible. The head is then crushed in order to remove it through the vaginal canal. The placenta and remaining contents are then suctioned from the uterus. The body parts must be reassembled outside of the mother’s body to be sure all was removed from the womb. If some body parts are missing, then the procedure must continue to search for the missing body parts and retrieve them.
@Chucky Arlaw: yes how have you determined she was raped.
@Thomas O’ Donnell: It’s not a baby at 12 weeks gestation.
@Nick Drake: That was a very graphic and disturbing commentary you gave there. It was awful but necessary, i don’t think any of these pro-lifers want to read or hear such things, because it would shut their arguments down if people actually understood what happens during an abortion.
@Tom&Gerry: meant pro-choice
@Tom&Gerry: i have no issue with reading that commentary.Those are the terminations that Irish women are having in the UK,because of not being able to access a safe,legal abortion in their own country.Did you not know that ?
@Chucky Arlaw: killing the baby, adds one more, dead, aborted victim to the horrible crime of rape.
women who let their child live, and be loved, are the REAL. heroes of the abortion industry, defying the abortion killers.
@Francis Mc Carthy: Would the procedure be any different here? No, it would not, i would imagine England is far more advanced than we are seen as they have been providing thousands of our women and their own with abortions for decades. i don’t believe that the majority of the population in this country know all the gory details of just what happens to the baby during abortion. If they did i really believe they would not vote for abortion in this country. It might also make women and men behave more responsibly and take better precautions so that no innocent life has to go through that unbelievable torture for the sake of convenience..
@Francis Mc Carthy: No, i would imagine you would have no problem reading that very disturbing commentary, and not feel even a little bit sick for the poor little life, the graphic explanation of that little life being litterly torn apart, did not move you at all did it? well it affected me, and i am sure countless others who read just what happens during an abortion.
Theres always going to be hard and emotive scenarios on ,both sides, is this what we can expect from the leader of goverment and hisministers for the next few months. Heres an idea why not lock away rapists for 15 years plus at least that would be some justice for the unfotunate victims. Give us some real justice not just empty promises
@Jim Kenny: Bring back hanging.
@Eric De Red: For women who have abortions?
@DaisyChainsaw: Did nobody ever tell you that if you have nothing intelligent to say then say nothing?
@Michael: I bet you hear that every day.
@DaisyChainsaw: these guys “loveboth” and are “pro life”,too
@DaisyChainsaw: love and compassion for those abortion women victims, mourning their child, lied to, fooled by the “feminist” abortion pushers.
wrap them in our love, as the money making,abortion industry spits them out.
I would also like to see her get justice!
Rapist arrested and charged,
Held on remand in prison until their case comes to trial in a timely manner.
Following a fair trial, where the child is protected by the court, the rapist is convicted and sentenced to a lengthy stay in a prison where they can be both punished and rehabilitated.
I see on a regular basis justice fly’s with a broken wing, in this apparent, rotten, corrupt state.
It seems the so called Party of Law and Order should change their name to,
The Party of Lawlessness and Disorder!
It makes me nauseous that people want to force victimhood on woman to give woman control of their bodies.
Only victims of rape, incest etc are granted power to control their own bodies.
That is only to assuage your conditioned moral idiocy.
Woman have more strength than men and make better decisions evidenced day after day in our courts, the news, wherever we look.
I’m not asking you to trust women, they have nothing to prove, trust yourself not to be influenced by years of bigotry!
@GizmoIrl: Women do control their own bodies, it is a myth that they don’t. If a woman in this country finds herself with an unwanted pregnancy she would soon sort it out by travelling to have her abortion. Why don’t women take more responsibility for their own well being.? Women should make sure that they will not find themselves in a situation where they may find themselves pregnant, by taking all the necessary precautions. If women are as strong as you say then they should not mind taking responsibility for their own actions.
@Tom&Gerry: A female person capable of becoming pregnant cannot do so by themselves. Therefore, it stands to reason that the person who can create sperm should be the one taking full responsibility in ensuring that they do not allow any to enter the body of the person capable of becoming pregnant.
@Felicity Hensen:
A man cannot get pregnant – the woman can.
So therefore following your own logic, the consequences for the woman are more severe, and she should take precautions against it unless she wants to be pregnant.
Yes men should also – but it should be the full responsibility of women to control if they become pregnant or not – there are many options.
If a woman becomes pregnant and is now carrying a new human life – and that life is protected with human rights just like the mother – and she knows that in advance – then why would she not be more responsible?
@HelloGoogleTracking: If you had followed what I had said, instead of reverting to the usual it should be the person capable of becoming pregnant who should take full responsibility, you would see that my logic follows basic biology. A person cannot become pregnant unless (a) sperm enters their body and fertilises an ovum. The person who is in charge, if you will, of the sperm should be the one entirely responsible for making sure said sperm does not enter the body of a person capable of becoming pregnant. You may choose to liken it to expecting a person to take full responsibility for being shot, rather than the person who shot the firearm.
@GizmoIrl: bigotry ?
the repeal, anti 8th crowd are riddled top to toe with anti Catholic bigots, Coppinger, Brid Smith, Boyd Barrett and co — because the Catholic Church and others bravely opposes babies being killed by abortion, they hate that Church or anyone else who opposes their agenda.
Save the 8th, save the unborn abies. Abortion discriminates against them, by killing them.
@Felicity Hensen:
You can take the pill and it neutralises the sperm – what pill stops a bullet?
Rubbish analogy.
Finally you too can stop the sperm reaching the egg – you seem to be abdicating all responsibility for women to control their own reproduction – and control if they become pregnant.
rewinded all the feminist victories of the past fighting for condoms and the pill……..
are you sure you have a fully formed view on this issue, it seem contradictory and only half thought through – and design simply to put all the responsibility on men – and make women powerless.
very retrograde view
@Felicity Hensen: No, no, no, that is so wrong. It is entirely up to the woman to protect herself, she is the one who has most to lose. She is the one who might get pregnant, might have to keep and raise the child or decides to terminate, he gets to cope with none of those decisions, so it is most definitely the woman’s duty to make sure she is protected from such scenarios.
@HelloGoogleTracking: My fully formed view on this is quite clear. It is not the absolute responsibility of the person capable of becoming pregnant to stop themselves becoming pregnant. Your difficulty with understanding this position appear to be because it has been a long held view that the people who become pregnant are the ones who must take full responsibility for the situation, and any and all consequences that follow. This position stops no person capable of becoming pregnant from engaging in any measures they choose to help prevent pregnancy. But I will reiterate. Once active sperm enters the body of a person capable of becoming pregnant, they are in the situation of hoping that any oral contraception proves effective, which for myriad reasons for many people, it does not.
@Tom&Gerry: i’ve spent most of the past 2 years trying to put myself in a situation where i never get pregnant – sterilisation…
guess what? at 30, i’m being deemed “too young” to make this decision.. but if i want a child, no bother… i’m plenty old enough.. how the h**l does that make sense? seriously?
i’m a virgin on birth control, who denies herself access to potential romantic partners, specifically to avoid pregnancy.. i’m lonely and depressed as a result, so i’m seeking sterilisation..
thing is, consultants can’t even be bothered to say no to me directly. they contact my GP, and tell him to tell me they won’t see me. they make him tell me i’m too young to know that i don’t want children (i’ve helped with looking after 16 younger cousins… pretty sure i know what children are like), but that they’re there for me when i “come to [my] senses” and decide to have children..
somehow, the fact that i’m a virgin at 30 because i want to avoid pregnancy isn’t enough to convince them that i’m serious.. they’d rather i have an abortion, than allow me the ability to avoid an abortion altogether.
The commentary by the pro abortion advocates is very emotive around the rights of the mother. They are choosing to ignore the right to life of the unborn child.
The debate in the Oireachtas indicates a groupthink that did not give regard to the right to life of the cold.
@Con:
The unborn child is dehumanised and reduced to organic biomass – similar to going to the toilet.
I see it too – and it disgusts me.
I can understand about rare extreme cases, and there has to be protections for mother in cases of medical problems, and the mother must be prioritised.
However in the absence of the above, killing another human being should be the last possible option – adoption is obviously far better for the child, and they could have a full and happy life, rather than be killed….for convenience.
@Con: reason being, the pro aborts DON’T CARE whether the unborn child dies by abortion.
Thats why they NEVER mention that dead child. They discriminate against the baby, always, who dies.
Their silence tells a lot about their bleak, culture of abortion death, which they NOW push on us.
Keep the 8th.
What foreign funds help prop up his party, eh!
@Con Murphy: Soros ? Planned Parenthood?
Liberal Leo. For a man who piped on so long that it’s a personal issue and wouldn’t say anything or give his views. He’s now actively campaigning for abortion. Referencing rape and P case. They are both extremely rare. Could count them on one hand.
So our dear leader wants babies at 3months to be killed by tax payer funded private businesses who will get bonuses for abortion numbers.
Vote him out I say.
(And I’m not religious before anyone asks, just don’t believe babies with beating hearts fighting to survive should be killed because it’s my choice, my body. Has the baby no right to live then?)
Whoever raped that child should be aborted ? No referendum required in this case
Heard of story locally of a father forcing her daughter to have a late term abortion in the US. Would that happen in the case of incest?
It’s sad that our elected leader and a qualified doctor doesn’t actually know either the medical or legal facts surrounding this issue.
The ability to prosecute anyone that assists in seeking an abortion is long gone.
A rape victim can receive a legal abortion in Ireland, especially at 15. Mental harm is included in the legislative.
The cases mentioned, that’s on the doctors for not being aware of the regulations surrounding their profession. Is doctor Leo suggesting that where a professional fails to adequately keep their knowledge up to acceptable levels we just change the law to let them off?
Personally i would have no issue with being kept on life support it it was giving my unborn child even a slight chance of survival but then I’m a man and apparently we don’t know what it’s like to be a parent or have any control on whether our children live or die.
Regardless of the endless arguments about abortion, if the country doesn’t vote yes for it … Well what can I say everyone desperate enough to decide for themselves will go to England get it done anyway, ireland vote yes and have it so costly that it’ll be something people will be more cautious of in future !!
have your say