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THE COUNTRY IS bracing itself for next week’s Budget, which will contain a raft of new austerity measures as ministers scrabble for savings.
By the terms of the EU/IMF bailout agreement, the Government must find savings of €3.8billion with spending cuts and tax increases.
We already have some ideas about what the Budget might contain – with cuts to some social welfare benefits, a €100 universal household charge, a VAT increase and new health charges among measures which have been flagged. However, the Government has repeatedly come under fire for its approach.
So today we’re asking: What would you do to save €3.8billion in next week’s Budget?
A wealth tax? New tolls? Cutting public spending programmes? Explain your ideas in the comments, and we’ll pick out the best of them for TheJournal.ie Readers’ Budget…
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take back the money that was stolen on all of us by bankers and developers
take back the money that was stolen on all of us by bankers and developers
take back the money that was stolen on all of us by bankers and developers
take back the money that was stolen on all of us by bankers and developers
take back the money that was stolen on all of us by bankers and developers
take back the money that was stolen on all of us by bankers and developers
take back the money that was stolen on all of us by bankers and developers
take back the money that was stolen on all of us by bankers and developers
take back the money that was stolen on all of us by bankers and developers
take back the money that was stolen on all of us by bankers and developers
take back the money that was stolen on all of us by bankers and developers
And take back the Continental shelf. Rent a rig from Norway and sell OUR GAS to Northern Europe, and sell OUR FISH to Spain and other countries as they are catching our fish for free at the moment.
tax the rich and give anyone on the dole 10k to emigrate, chances are they will still be unemployed a year from now so they will be getting the 10k anyway
That’s a horrible statement about people on the dole Paul, sending all the wrong messages.
its not horrible, i have been on the dole for 3 years and i would be gone in the morning if i could, maybe you would prefer for them to sit at home forever just watching time roll by? you have to face the reality that there are no jobs, and with more and more ‘adjustments’ every budget that situation is not going to improve, try looking at it from a rational perspective, people prefer to feel useful
i’ve put out 90 cv’s in the last month alone to all kinds of businesses, i have applied for uncountable numbers of jobs in the last 3 years from all over the country, i have not received one reply or phone call in 12 months, tell me this isnt horrible, what is there here for me? at least if i could get work in another country i would be of some use
Paul’s comment isn’t as scathing as it appears… It’s true. I’m just wondering when Australia is going to run out of jobs though. I’m almost 3 years unemployed and between the lack of employment, the soul destroying idleness and the begrudging workers who claim there are “jobs everywhere” and p*ss you off because they don’t want to be working themselves, it’s very hard to stick it out here in general. Give people on the dole a bulk payment and watch the burden disappear
Fair play to you for doing your best Paul, sorry you haven’t found a job. And yes, I agree that if someone has been lookiing forwork for x time they should have an option of getting 10 grand to emigrate, that’s a fine idea. My initial reaction was based on the fact that people on the dole may feel undervalued as it is, and if they were offfered 10k to emigrate it might send them the message that they’re a drain on the country’s resources, or basically unwanted. I feel we should send messages to all Irish people that they are wnated and valued here. But yes, if it was made an option, it would be useful to some of us…
People shouldn’t be made to feel a burden. It was the rich and greedy, not the needy, who created this situation. It’s up to us as a society to make sure everyone’s skills and needs are catered to.
@Connor i meant to suggest it as an option, of course it couldnt be done for everyone, i know a lot of people that would snap it up, there would have to be a rule that you couldnt collect welfare here until the year was up, it would have the potential of being very easily abused too but im sure it would help a lot of genuine people
My heart goes out to you, I was unemployed in Ireland back in 1982 for 4 months, and I couldn’t believe that I ended up the situation, with 2 nursing diplomas.
The entire class was unemployed, in fact. Most emigrated to UK for work, 3 of us got jobs back in Dublin.
Although, I got a permanent, pensionable job, I left in 1985 for 2 years leave without pay and ended up in Australia and never left here.
If you can find your way here at all, there are still plenty of jobs especially in the mining areas which are in very remote areas, where the work is hard but the money good, I believe.
Good luck to you.
Hi Conor, Matt and Paul.
I’m on the dole also and search for work. You might please have a look at my Co-Op idea below. I would appreciate your opinions, comments, and how to improve the concept. It is designed to treat all with dignity, produce a lot, create employment, become food and energy independent, and lots more. please email me on walter@localcampus.com or stay on this site if you wish to share with all. all the best, walter
*set up a Co-Operative in each constituency, primarily dealing with food and micro energy production. Everybody on social welfare offered a job at €10 per hour. see the template on this week’s West Cork Local newsletter http://www.localcampus.com/westcorklocal.html
hi Walter, fair play, ive been giving serious consideration to similar projects, i would suggest anaerobic digesters for energy like the one in Kilkenny http://www.khanacademy.org/video/addition-and-subtraction-with-significant-figures?playlist=Pre-algebra
oops wrong link http://www.task29.net/assets/files/Task%2029%20Camphill%20Community%20Ballytobin%20Case%20Study.pdf
Hi Paul, interesting! I spent about 5 years developing Anaerobic Digesters!! Got planning for one in Roscommon as part of a bioenergy park, but unfortunately a gangster took over from me and it isn’t built yet.
Revert the vat decrease on the hospitality sector, reduce all civil service wages by 10%, means test child allowance (none over 50k), new high tax rate for salaries over 150k
@ Martin, I agree with all your points except one, the VAT decrease is probably the only thing keeping the hospitality sector alive. An increase would only put tourists off as prices are already very high.
Joe, restaurants never passed on the reduction, or the ones that initiially did stopped, so reverting will have no effect on tourists.
Forget all this cut the public sector by 10% nonsense everyone keeps spouting, its not the level of the wages its the ammount people, do a time and motion study and get rid of the dead wood, there’s alot of it. We want the nurses and doctors and firemen etc that the dead wood wheel out as a case for no cuts to the public sector everytime theres talk of reform.
I suggest dragging the whole country to somewhere near Cuba and market ourselves as a Carribbean destinaton. We could then proceed to Salsa dance our way out of the recession and with a back drop of blue skies be oblivious to the misery.
Completely scrap TD expenses.
Cut base TD salary.
Cut salary increases for being a minister. (Actually just scrap them altogether)
Increase the levy being introduced on pension amounts to 99% and from 80k up… not 100k.
Introduce a third tax band on wages over a certain limit….say €100k.
Remove defined benefit pensions from public service from now on. Defined contribution like everyone else.
Means test the OAP.
Property tax.
Don’t increase the VAT.
Few cents on the ciggies.
Tax the child benefit.
Just out of interest what tax rate do you think should be added to salarys over 100k?
I don’t know to be honest. The finer details are impossible to say without knowing who it would reach/how much it would bring in and what would bring us to the point of diminishing returns.
But the principle is any budget should work from the top down. I believe there’s still room to tax some more at the high end.
Get rid of the Croke Park agreement for a start!
1) An emergency wealth tax
2) consolidation of local authorities to a maximum number of 16
3) cap on public sector pensions to 100k
4) reduction in mid management head count in public service by 50%, using part of savings to award a 10% increase to frontline staff (that will set the cat amongst the union pigeons)
5) cut corporation tax for certain desirable industries to ten percent
6) means testing for child benefit so it goes only to those who need it and takes account of families debts and not just income
7) abolition of welfare for those who turn down work unless taking work would leave them even worse off
8) leave VAT unchanged
DISCLAIMER – without access to some numbers, it’s all a bit theoretical!
Going digital. Paperwork costs money. Irish governments has an arguably poor record of dealing with new technologies. Just because e-voting flopped- why should the gov not explore outsourcing to private experts and moving money leeching paper methods into te 21st century. If it can be done digitally, why not do it digitally? Did the revenue really need to send me my p45? Surely they could have just placed it in an online profile for me? And when an empkoyer comes along- i just extend it to him centrally. Public jobs is a good example of this- all info in one place. No postage, no printing- just the movement of data. Pay slips… Motor tax… Services… Cut gov spending on paper work and get some workflow software in there. And when you’re at it train people to use it properly. And get rid of people who haven’t kept up to date (harsh but true). Use open source systems. Microsoft licenses cost a fortune. Stop wasting money being a government as a consumer. Be a government as an entity that can and should tailor things to suit its functions. Not just buy what everyone else uses…
Germany tried to go open source and i think they scrapped it eventually. Things like support, training etc made it less efficient. I’ll try and find the article on it.
Also, all that software would have to be built/licensed. And if government IT project history is anything to go by, it would end up costing us more money….lots of it.
I work in IT though so I’d like vote for this :)
Great idea! It’s frustrating to have to fill out duplicate information on social welfare forms. It should be all linked to my pps number, my name is always going to be the same, my sex, my nationality, mothers maiden name and my date of birth also, why waste time filling this info out??! I’ve been saying this for a long time now…
Centralised online or digital services would be great. Paperwork is simply a drain on resources and seriously flawed. For example, I applied for tax credits from Revenue and they sent my paperwork to my mother’s house. When I was on the dole they knew where I lived – in a completely different part of the country to where Revenue thought I lived (does nobody check this??). Even when it comes to voting – I have supplied the correct address each time I moved and filled in the correct forms (change of address) yet I still get a polling card at my dad’s house, at my mum’s house, at my current location and at my previous Dublin address. If I wanted to, I have 4 votes in each election or referendum (I have tried to get those votes removed but have been told I can’t)! Digital services should remove all this duplication and reduplication.
Hope to get out of the country
I would give the government a one way ticket to Azaerbaijan!!!!
I’m gone in February! :D
Expansionary fiscal consolidation
1 Declare the state insolvent by statute (It is)
2 Renegotiate all existing contracts with a view to a hair cut (Bank guarantees, creditors, employment)
3 A modest land value tax for farmers. Determined by productive value.
4 Reduce all current spending by as much as possible
(See 4 examples of nations that successfully turned their economies around)
http://mobile.businessweek.com/magazine/content/11_17/b4225035005803.htm
Gone last June. :)
Tax at 100% the interest and profit paid on any bonds owed due to the bank bailout so bond holders junior senior or any other can only get their initial investment back
Good call…would it be legal though; that is the question?
Pretend to be from a third world country and run tv adverts in better off countries showing irelands people in poverty then ask for donation or monthly contribution in same way a trocaire, concern, UNICEF!
There. Problem solved.
Surprised nobody has mentioned this: legalise cannabis and tax it. Put VAT on cannabis, lower the price of cigarettes and alcohol. Tax high earners with a wage of >75k at 48%. Reduce salaries for public officials and top level CEOs
Cut VAT. Cut minister salaries; including payment of non contributed pensions and payment for jobs that they aren’t in anymore.
Means test child benefit.
tax ex Minister pensions by 35%.
Tax wealthy 1% on assets above 1 million.
2% above 5 million
10% above 10 million
Cut child benefit for households with income over 125,000
Tax text messages
1.5% tax on corporate profits leaving the country half of which goes directing into the health service and education.
No CT for new indigenous business in first 5 years to stimulate job creation which lessens the social welfare burden and increase income tax take
2% tax on car sales above 27,500
2.5% tax on internet bets above €250
5% tax on all bets above €1000
Digitize education
30 % decrease in all public service pay above 100,000. Performance related bonuses to compensate
Half all expenses in the civil service
2% tax on golf course memberships above 10,000
5% tax on cheap alcohol
10% tax on cigs
1.25% tax on sale of live stock
1% levy on worth of land holdings over 2.75 acres
All calls to be done on Skype
Natural resources should be nationalized.
1% tax on all clothing items above €175
Line my pockets with 7 billion, hold Bunga Bunga parties, promote my teenage “dancers” to parliament.
Well that’s what I’d do…
Legalise Cannabis and tax it, which also saves millons in fighting the ‘Drug War, crime would fall, and less drunk and disorderly on the streets.
and the tax would contribute to balancing the HSE Deficit.
However the drunk and disorderly comes from Supermarkets making cheap booze available to the masses, particularly those ‘vulnerable’ such as teenagers, breadliners and students. Therefore supermarkets should be banned from selling alcohol and limit the availability to pubs & to an extent, non-supermarket affiliated off-licenses (sorry O’Briens & Carryout, small nation fairer monopoly), much like in Amsterdam with the cannabis cafés where the control is effective and integrated into society more positively as alcohol once was and in more recent times, Absinthe back into France.
Clamp down on people who are claiming welfare in Ireland and not entitled to! And maybe encourage spending by lowering sales tax, stimulating the economy and as a result creating employment and increasing revenues.
Austerity doesn’t work, even the IMF will tell you that ! But is being used now to beat the People into the ground, into utter poverty. ‘They’ know that 7 billion people on the planet is too much
Ireland is worth saving, and can be fairly easily rescued, and can be an example to many other countries as to how to become food and energy independent.
The Budget …
*set up a Co-Operative in each constituency, primarily dealing with food and micro energy production. Everybody on social welfare offered a job at €10 per hour. see the template on this week’s West Cork Local newsletter http://www.localcampus.com/westcorklocal.html
*pay 18 cents per unit for all electricity generated by microgeneration (under 1 MW), and 12 cents per unit for macrogeneration.
These two developments gets everybody off social welfare, and generates over 80,000 additional jobs in the renewable energy industry. Now we are getting more self-reliant !
*encourage ‘green’ industries to set up operations in Ireland (I have two that would create over 4,000 jobs, from America and Norway. Government help virtually nil so far).
* allow households a generous amount of clean water per person, meter and charge for extra, stop such enormous wastage;
*Make decisions that will generate enterprise, cut the red tape which is absolutely rampant, even though we have been saying this for years!;
*If these sort of decisions are not made get rid of the present Government, and elect ‘the best of the best’ in the next Government. See the Irish National next Tuesday on http://www.localcampus.com on this issue.
There is so much we could do, let’s do it !!
Somebody put this guy in government
I think self employed people who have to wind up their company because of this recession should be entitled like all their ex employees to sign on. After all they contributed more to the state than anyone. They took a risk and employed people, paid their taxes and prsi contributions and they should have some backup should they find themselves out of work too.
And ge rid of carbon tax and all other expensive Green gimmicks imposed on the Irish public in the last few years.
Be careful Ann. Self-employed people do not pay peoples taxes for them. They deduct taxes from peoples wages and pay it over to the state on behalf of their employees. The employees actually pay the tax!!
But I do agree that self employed people should be allowed to contribute the Arate PRSI and claim proper full social welfare.
Cut Retired Politicans pensions to JSA rates
Pay €100,000 to owners of big cuddly dogs
Woof Woof
Third tax band, kicking in at around €100k, give or take.
Open a consultation process on redistribution with a view to striking a fair deal for both rich and poor, but ensuring that accumulated wealth must be put to use for the benefit of wider society.
Consider penalising those who move their tax affairs abroad, tighten any loopholes in the current scheme in that regard.
Redistribution? In an ideal world yes, everyone would have the same amount of money. But what incentive is there for people to work hard if they can’t accumulate some level of wealth to enjoy their retirement or to pass on to their children when they die? If it is instead confiscated by the government and given to people who haven’t worked hard and haven’t made as many (time, family) sacrifices?
I don’t know if you noticed Ryan, but generally it’s the people who work the longest and hardest hours who get paid less.
@ ryan, a bit of an assumption there Ryan, just because one is unemployed now don’t mean that they have not worked hard in the past, or would not be willing to do so. redistrubution need not be an ideal, but if one earns more they can afford to pay more and still enjoy the lifestyle thay area acustomesd to. I dont think anyone is suggesting that everyone is on the same amount of money, equality is not about everyone being the same. It is about treating everyone in the same manner. That is not the case at the moment in our society. to take 10euro a week from a social welfare dependent family has much more impact that taking 40 eoro(example) from someone eho earns above 100k per anum. A bit of though before comments that invoke the notion that people who are out of work are not , or have not been in the past hard workers. The state has indeed done a fine job of turning citizen against citizen, which of course means that while we are against each other, we will not become united against what they are doing.
@Alan why is your name backwards?! How have I not noticed this!
set a salary ceiling of 80000 across both public & private sector pay, all professions for a 5 year period. Increase duty on beer, wine & cigarettes. Set a standard bus fare of €1.00. Set a standard toll of €1.00. Abolish the €10.00 airport charge & every single Irish passport holder living abroad charged €10.00 yearly to be paid back into the country.
Scrap private healthcare & use the USC for health charges.
All passport holder paying a tenner a year because they were forced to emigrate!?!?!? Get real. Would love to help out financially at home but the reality is that, rather that leech of the state I went abroad to get work in my field but even then I’m working on the bread line and quite frankly am at the limit of my over draft every month. Now you want to lump a charge on my continued Irish citizenship on top of that?
All nice ideas, but you couldn’t possibly scrap private healthcare (would that not put more pressure on the hospitals than at mo) or put a ceiling on wages as, if more oil was discovered, the US might call us commies and invade.
There’s a lot of ways of increasing expenditure there with no ways of funding it! Even the €80,000 ceiling would cut the public sector pay bill, but also mean less income tax from the private sector for those over €80,000. And scrapping private healthcare would put a massive overnight strain on public healthcare.
€10 charge on passport holders is interesting though!
I dont think that the 10 euro a year charge on the passport for those living aboard is a bad idea…i think that if they are being charged to retain their irish passport, and going to be affected by charges etc bcos they are irish they should also have a say on what happens in the country
Passport charge would be ruled unconstitutional as it would be an effective charge on continued citizenship which is enshrined as a right in Bunreacht na hÉireann. The charge to get a passport is an administrative one and none payment doesn’t effect your continued residence in Ireland. Also unenforceable from a practical point of view unless you were to cancel a passport for non-payment which would lead to massive diplomatic head aches given the shear volume of Irish passports currently outside the state. Then there’s the NI scenario where by people born there are entitled to an Irish passport however, from a legal point of view, are living outside the state. You’ve now got Good Friday and St. Andrew’s Agreement headaches.
Like the right to vote Laura Marie?
yeah as in the right to vote
What about the €80 or so you already pay for the passport. Also capping everyone in public and private sectors wages at 80000 why on earth would you do that. If that was done can you give me one good reason why someone would take a chance and set up a business in this country and try to create employment. If something like this was introduced why would anyone with the capabilities of earning more than 80000 stay in Ireland. Their pride in being Irish and helping Ireland can only go so far like.
100% tax rate over 80K is the most outrageous thing I have ever heard. However, I do agree with increased duty on beer, wine & cigarettes.
Can someone explain the benefit of limiting the pay in private companies???
To introduce communism, thats what it sounds like to me.
Except, Gavin, that it sounds nothing like communism. Communism is about taking all the means of production and handing them equally to the people. In a communist society there would be no pay. No income. No tax. No expenditure. Communism has never actually been tried in any country in the world. Not even in the Soviet Union. What they had in the Soviet Union was Sovietism or Soviet-style socialism. Not communism, even though they liked to think it was. Revesting ownership of the means of production in the state is what was practised in pretty much every “communist” country, but that flies in the face of true communism. Still not a fan of either (Sovietism/Maoism/Leninism/etc. vs. Communism) option though.
Check out the big brain on Brad…..
Brian, you’re right there was no Communism anywhere in the world. The simple reason is that Communism as a doctrine is a pipe dream without substance. Marx devoted very little attention to this ultimate stage of development of his economic society. He largely focused on ‘getting there’ through creation of an omnipotent state which was to take over all elements of human society – a monopoly on all economic and political activities. Marx argued that the creation of this omnipotent state would somehow lead the humans into Communism – a society without ownership and without capital. In the process the omnipotent state created to bring humans into this utopian state of mind was supposed to somehow dissolve itself having firstly taken over all power over human lives. That of course was never going to happen and Marx never really cared about this last stage – all he cared about was to create a society of slaves rid of any means of political and economical expression outside of the Party. That’s what the Eastern Europeans got in various flavors. They all got Marxist-Socialism to be precise (the left doesn’t particularly like to have their preferred doctrine socialism associated with Marx and his failed statism – but that i what it was).
So to come back to the point – limiting private sector pay is not really communism but it does smack of the socialism of the least successful variety. Salaries in USSR, Yugoslavia and most other countries were pretty convergent and in the West there was also an experiment by FDR to tax incomes above certain level at 90%. Needless to say these were a series of spectacular failures.
Finally, I have yet to hear the explanation of benefits of such a hare-brained move to limit private sector pay.
I’d do what any normal courageous parent would do. I’d tell the money lenders to fuck off – that half my family were idiots and needed to be educated. That all my children needed an education too to prevent them growing up to be idiots like half of their parents.
That my aged needed care and to be looked after with a bit of dignity. That my sick needed to be made well in my hospitals not left hanging about dying on trolleys.
That those looking after the future generations of my country deserved a roof over their heads without bankers, (who btw charged them for the privilege of valuing their property but have since scrapped those valuations) trying to kick them out.
That I was going to make sure I’d live within my budget and I was going to have to squeeze the greedy that were sitting on their inherited dosh cos all my kids were entitled to a decent standard of living.
That I was going to sort out my government so that those representing my people realised they were representing them and hadn’t won first prize at a smash and grab.
And that I’d get back to them when my country had grown a moral backbone!!! And that wouldn’t really take that long cos overall, once the moneylenders stop scaring the shit out of them, they’re great and I love them!
Well almost no one will read this but I’d;
Introduce a new income tax band to hit income over 100k p.a. A few percent above the current higher rate, but not a large jump.
Abolish rent allowance: it serves no purpose other than to drive up rent. I rent myself. It might suck, but longterm it would decrease rent and short term it saves the government money.
Limit the amount of money farmers can ‘reinvest’ in their farms each year, large farmers can and do use this loophole, intended to help smaller farmers, as a tax dodge.
Close any loopholes which allow the wealthy to avoid taxes, thereby introducing ‘stealth’ wealth taxes.
I’d probably drop the dole by a tenner for single people with no dependants.
I’d also means test the Childrens allowance.
Introduce legislation to prevent future mortgages following people as they currently do to encourage a bit more fiscal responsibility in the banks. If I could, I’d introduce it for already existing mortgages to encourage a bit more engagement and more helpful attitudes at the banks.
I’d introduce college fees for undergrads, but provide them with very low interest, very long term government loans. The state continues to pay for education, but the recipient will have to pay it back eventually even if they leave the country.
I’d do more to curb banking excesses, fire more bankers for gross incompetence and breach of contract and prevent them from getting their ‘golden handshakes’.
Prevent public hospitals and equipment from being used for private practices, or limit the amount of it. Paying doctors from the public purse so they can run private practices using public equipment and space is cracked in the head and lowers the quality of the public service drastically while still costing the state.
I’d curb the allowances politicians get drastically, I’d also cut their wages significantly and introduce a massive tax on political pensions given to those under ~60
I’d also make it illegal for a politician serving more than one term to retain their job as a teacher.
I’d cut the wages of senior civil servants severely. They have not been value for money.
I’d introduce a scheme which partners with foreign companies hiring unemployed irish people to make it easier and affordable for people on the dole to leave the country for jobs elsewhere. Yes I’d basically sell people on the dole to foreign companies for the price of their plane tickets, from what I’ve heard from people on the dole, many of them would be happy to do it too.
If that’s not enough of an adjustment I’d probably legalise Cannabis. And tax it into the ground.
Highly impressed Pat. Good sense all round…
Its soul destroying to read all these comments from people who are so readily accepting the premise that we have to go on and on submitting to the German and French governments dilktats that are breaking our spirit and destroying our independence as a nation. The Irish people did not create this problem- as is well documented and will must break from the yoke that has tied us to the downward spiral as a nation. We must stop this lunacy of self destruction.
If a friend or a family member loaned you a large sum of money, you’d expect them to have an interest in how you spend that money – to ensure that its spent in such a way as to ensure they get their money back.
Not relevant because the cause of Irish collapse was private debt in banks and not Government debt so your analogy is incorrect.
Yes the cause of the Irish bailout was the bank guarantee. Yet it was an Irish Minister for Finance and an Irish government which took the decision to guarantee the debts and deposits of the banks. Not Germany or France.
Under duress from Germany, France and USA to stop contagion of their banks.
My suggestion is to put a 2c charge on all text messages and 1c on all mobile phone calls, if I have to put up with the inane phone calls with “I’m on the boos, roight!” while travelling or endless gibber-jabber of bored single mothers, then they should pay for inflicting their “insights” on the travelling public. As (ComReg figs) pointed to 1.5bn text messages per quarter in 2006, there should be scope for raising €100 million per annum from this measure.
Personally I think childrens allowance should be means tested and also only given for the first 2 children – and introduce it going forward (not retrospectively, that wouldn’t be fair). After that you’re on your own, perhaps people might think twice before having so many, irrespective of the position they’re in at the time. This crises has taught us that NOTHING is forever, so just because you’re in a great job and able to afford to pay the bills for 3 or 4 kids now, that mightn’t be the case for the next 20 or so years.
I think people should accept more responsibility for the cost of raising children. We’ve come to expect too much because of traditionally large families. We don’t have a population issue, if anything it’s the opposite and the young are emigrating, having the state invested money in educating them.
I could go on for a long time about this issue. I’m 40 and in a relationship now, and only NOW in a position to try to start a family, as I knew how much responsibility & cost it was to raise a child to give them the best chance in life. This has resulted in there being much hgher risks involved having children at an older age but I didn’t want to be a single parent and it p*sses me off these people have 4 or 5 kids just to satisfy their own desire to have a large family without a secure future and the financial ability to pay for it!
I know a lot of people won’t agree, but sure everyone’s entitled to their own opinion, and certainly no offense is intended by this rant :-)
I have a very simple programme for government:
1. match the spending with earnings (like every household does or should do)
2. stop screwing middle ireland with tax rises
Get rid of VRT, no need for Irish cars to be 1.25 times dearer, VAT 20%, drop the price of alcohol, Irish pub culture is contracting, supermarkets same price as pubs, half the dole, get rid of seannad, waste of money, no car tax, put up price of diesel to incorporate tax, those who use the road pay to be on the road, saw county council spend 18 months continually laying new footpath and wall 200m long!, hand this job out, “this is mi vork ya!” yes, belt away. I have loads more but will only get negatives
One thing’s for certain………… the budget will not contain any creative or incisive ideas that will bolster the economy nor alleviate (in some way) the austerities inflicted unjustly on the majority of our nation……… The inability to think outside the box has brought the evolution of Ireland inc. to a point of stasis……… And, as nature abhors a vacuum, Ireland inc. is about to be subsumed, body and soul, by whatever monstrosity the euro project turns into…….. Nearly a thousand years of resilience to domination and within one lifetime of achieving some degree of identifiable independence we’ve not just passed on our house but also the ghosts of past independent endeavour…. We should hang our collective head in shame for not honouring, not cherishing, the sacrifices made by previous generations so that WE could forge our own destiny!
So, as far as the budget goes, we are once again a nation sitting UNDER the table scrabbling over who gets what crumb…. from the loaf we ourselves PUT on the table??
As my soccer buddies are wont to say ‘Ireland loves being the underdog’……. Well we’ve literally paid for that honour now…….
I want to thumb smack you but my conscience won’t allow me. I’m too sad
@Reada (don’t know how to find a fada, sorry), I’m not being disingenuous when I tell you my heart aches at the conclusions I’ve drawn as a result of the body elect (over several administrations and including this one) constantly failing to protect and nourish Ireland and its people……. if the concept of altruism within democratic politics is dead then why bother with elections at all if all they’re going to do is pander to unelected commissions and the like at Brussels? Remember when Dublin looks to Europe it has its back turned on the rest of the country… literally and figuratively!
O William my heart aches too. And my head. I feel the same as you but don’t express it so eloquently. Don’t give up on us yet. I feel a bit of a change though. There’s only so much battering a people will take before they get off their knees.
This Euro won’t last much longer. The markets and this global downturn is a con. Where’s all the money gone? It never existed! Figures on a screen was all it ever was! More people are realising this now as is evident reading comments.
What do they say, at first the truth is resisted, then ridiculed, then accepted as fact. There’s a lot more of us at the fact side now than there were. “No more them and us – all us.” Head up, eyes to front, we’ll step proudly together.
Cut politicians pay and cut half their expenses also wealth tax. Also means test childrens allowance and all social welfare.
Good on pay and kids’ allowance, but: re. politicaians expenses, surely by their nature could not be halved as it should (in theory!!) be assumed that politicians would not take more expenses than necessary lol
SW is means tested
Completely nationalise the banks. no half measures.
we can control salaries and all profits will flow back to the exchequer.
Third tax rate for earnings in excess of €100k in the region of 40% to 50%. Capping all pay in the public sector, including semi-states like RTÉ and hospital consultants, at €250,000. Scrap the TV licence and include it automatically into this new household charge if they insist on introducing it, this could be linked to a minimal VAT increase on TV’s (only) so that the amount you pay to the National Broadcaster is proportional on how many and what size TV you have. (As opposed to everyone paying the same regardless of how many/what size TV you have). Reduction of defense forces numbers by natural wastage by 10%. A proper attempt at public sector reform that would be linked to performance and not just clocking in & out, this would also introduce some semblance of accountability tot eh civil service. A tax/charge applied to a person or company’s assets in excess of €1m in value. VAT kept the same. Capital investment in education. Excise duty to be unaffected. Airport taxes to be slashed to attract tourism.
Very good ideas, but how does the tax on assets over 1m work for individuals? What if all of their ‘ ‘disposable’ income is going into a mortgage? How could they possibly pay that tax then? It would also cripple small companies that are trying to stay viable.
Cheers for the questions Orion. Although I don’t have detailed answers given that there are only off the cuff outline proposals at present. You could limit the individual portion of that to fully paid off assets only, meaning those struggling with mortgages are kept clear of further charge. On the business end. I doubt very much that a company with assets in excess of €1m could be classified as a small enterprise. I say this a the son of a small business owner who’s been involved in the business in the past.
40-50% over E100k combined with USC and PRSI would push the marginal rate above 60% meaning that for 10k raise I get less then 4k in my pocket. Why bother? As it stands at the moment even w/o your proposed increase the tax increases of the last couple of budgets were too high so I took my E100k+ earning potential elsewhere. So instead of taking E40k p.a from me as was the case in 2009, the govt is now getting big fat 0.
Dom, you’ll find quite a lot of western countries already have a higher tax bracket for high earners (aka: those who can afford more). In fact quite a few have a graduated tax system in which there are multiple tax brackets corresponding to gross income. Asking high earners to pay 40 cent on the Euro for every Euro they earn OVER €100,000 is not unreasonable seeing as during the last recession of the 70′s/80′s some people (my own mother springs to mind) were paying 60p in the IR£1 basic tax is not unjust nor unfair. A lot of people in this category have benefited from unprecedented tax breaks from the Berties and Charlies and now that times are hard, it is not unreasonable for them to carry more of a can then previously.
USC, etc. would not push this over 60% by the wildest stretch but even if this were an issue, one could very easily isolate the earnings above such outside of the USC.
Eoin, you will find that most develop countries with that level of taxation provide in return services which I am afraid come as optional in Ireland. This is the bit you missed in your ‘so what, my mum paid’ analysis. Unless you think I should pay just because you like seeing high earners fleeced by the government, what you’re really asking me to do is to part with my hard earned cash to pay to sustain the overpaid public service and bank bondholders because the government sold us all up to unions and EU masters. Screw that, mate. I am not a sitting duck. The Irish politicians bankrupt the country every couple of decades. They should be thought a lesson that the taxpayer is not there to be skinned alive each time they overspend on their gombeen buddies.
Besides, I see you live in London. You’re not exactly making an example of yourself with regard to offering your hard earned cash to the Irish taxman.
The point I was making with regard to the level of tax the previous generation paid is that tax rates are not very high in Ireland at present and have been in the past much, much higher (as they are elsewhere in Europe). I also acknowledge that tax payers in other countries get more bang for their buck in relation to their entitlements at present however in Ireland, with its comparatively low tax rate, everyone seems to want everything for nothing. (world class health care, free third level education, a Garda station in every village, etc.). The only way to achieve that is to raise tax revenue. Also, if you’d read through my whole post, you’d see that I called for public sector reform. This includes looking at pay levels but most importantly, introducing performance related pay to eradicate the “clock in, clock out” mentality that exists in some section of the public sector, and to eliminate waste of revenue. I do believe that this government and the last have baulked in the face of union pressure and have failed the rest of us…………a direct result of which means that highly educated, high skilled people (not unlike myself) have been forced to emigrate to find work in our fields given the collapse of our industry (Structural Engineering in my case) in Ireland. Talk of gombeen politicians is a side show that deflects for the institutional, cultural taboos that concern the Irish taxation and employment pedestals but again is not to be forgotten at the end of the day. And please, don’t be as foolish as to somehow suggest that because I chose to continue my career abroad and continue to up-skill in an industry that is all but none existent in Ireland, rather that leech off the dole, is somehow a slight on my ability to comment on the plights that affect Ireland and propose solutions to same. I, along with a huge portion of my generation, have been forced to emigrate, through no fault of our own, in search of work but also live in hope to return home in order to use the experiences and skills to better our Republic. Greed is what killed our country’s economy and greed will keep it in the doldrums!
” (world class health care, free third level education, a Garda station in every village, etc.). The only way to achieve that is to raise tax revenue.”
Very noble, but this is not why your mum paid high taxes and this is not why hey are raising taxes today and this is not why we’re having this debate. The taxes will go up and the services will go down and you know it. Get real.
“Also, if you’d read through my whole post, you’d see that I called for public sector reform. ”
Yes, I am also calling for a reform. Let’s knock 30% off the public sector salaries so that a) the fact that their employer is broke is reflected and b) to bring them in line with the incomes in private sector. Then they can have the reform.
@ Dom – I know people working fulltime in the public sector who are earning €20,000 p/a. Are you suggesting they should now be forced to earn only €14,000? That’s below the minimum wage and only €4,000 above the dole. With that kind of attitude you should expect the fat cats to get greedier and the amount seeking state assistance to explode in numbers. Not everyone in the public sector earns substantial amounts of money.
Eoin, get real and think about what you say before you say it. The household charge will be introduced and will rise dramatically over the next three or four years, why would it be a good idea to put the tv licence rip off fee in with it, I DONT WATCH TV AND HAVE NOT IN ALMOST 5 YEARS, do you think i should pay a tv licence rip off fee. I’m certain there are plenty of other people out ther who don’t watch or own a tv. Tax the rich, reduce the politians pay and get rid of their ridiculous pensions. Take back the rights to any oil and gas that is rightfully the property of the Irish people and jail the politicians who gave the rights to the likes of Shell.
PR & Solidarity Exercises which won’t save much but will make us feel better:
* Use moral persuasion and the threat of sacking to ensure that the salary cap across the public sector is enforced totally. The Taoiseach should be the top paid public servant at €200,000. Cut the President down to €80,000 plus entertaining expenses.
* Cut all TD’s travel expenses (nobody else gets paid for attending work!). Give them free travel cards if necessary. Also scrap Oireachtas envelopes – tell them to use email instead.
* AFAIK TD’s can hire up to five staff members, cut this down to 2 (1 to assist in the Dail, 1 in their constituency office)
* Retrospectively change the rules on pensions for ex TD’s, Senators, Ministers and Taoisigh so that they can only get a pension when they turn 65. Again moral persuasion is key here – they can challenge it in court if they wish but they’d have to be brave/foolish enough! Also announce a €50,000 cap on pensions for all ex politican’s and public sector workers.
Savings:
* Cut the child benefit by €5 a month to €135 per child per month, rather than the proposed €10. This amounts to around €1 less a week which shouldn’t cause too much hurt. Announce another €5 cut in the next budget to allow people time to prepare. Also at the moment third and subsequent children get a higher rate – reverse this, so that they get a lower rate instead. Why? Equipment and clothes from the 1st and 2nd children should be reused/recycled as much as possible. Also scrap the 50% bonus for multiple births going forward.
* As is already planned by the government, aim to introduce means testing for child benefit in the 2013 Budget.
* Suspend increments across the public sector for two years, as done in the UK this week.
* Speed up reform under the Croke Park Agreement, aiming to have 95% implementation by end June 2012. Then in June 2012 the government could scrap it and renegotiate seeking proper reforms and cuts in numbers (particularly in HSE middle management). If strikes did take place, they’d be happening during the summer when children are already on holidays so it would be less disruptive to the wider economy.
* After the scrapping of the Croke Park Agreement, cut staff at county council level and outsource a lot of functions. All motor tax should be paid online or in the post office. All road maintenance and building contracts should be privatised, with strict timetables in the contracts and financial penalties on the private firm where these timetables are not completed.
* Merge a number of county councils together, ahead of the 2014 elections. The Local Government Management Services Board is already in existence, but bulk buy services local councils need rather than letting each one buy individually. The reason for the focus on local councils is to achieve savings which will in time lead to large cuts in rates on local businesses.
* Surprisingly I’m in favour of asking employer’s to contribute more to employee’s sick pay. It should be phased in though over 2 years though, with employer’s only paying 50% of the cost next year. Why am I in favour? It will encourage employers to be more concerned about the health of their employees (e.g. paying for them to have the flu jab etc) and it is already done in practically every other EU country – where it doesn’t seem to affect business that much.
* Sell the 25% stake in Aer Lingus. It has made more losses than profits in recent years and there is no strategic reason I can think of for the state to hold it.
* Sell the ESB, however keep the grid in public ownership. We already own Bord Gais and do not need two state owned energy companies. Then use the funds from the sale to found a new water company and a new broadband company.
Tax Increases:
* The VAT increases are already in the bailout agreement, but rather than an overnight 2% increase, instead increase it by 1% this year and 1% next year. It meets the agreement, but doesn’t lead to a big increase overnight.
* Increase motor tax as has already been suggested. However introduce a system whereby those who commute greater than 15km to work daily get a tax credit instead.
* Announce cuts to the TV license, €20 cut next year and €20 the following year. Use the same system (i.e. Post Office) to collect the €100 household charge.
* A third rate of tax isn’t something I’m normally in favour of. Overly complicated tax systems in general cost more to implement than they return to the exchequer. And already those who are on the 42% rate also pay 7% USC. If it is absolutely necessary to meet the budget targets then introduce a 10% USC rate instead.
Impose a wealth tax on anyone with over a million in savings, cut the dole and child allowance by a tenner, stop single parents allowance for kids once they reach 12 and slash rent allowance. Too much money is going to landlords.
You’re obviously not lookinf after a family depending on child allowence, or in possession of over a million in savings lol
Ok I was being bombastic, and I’m sure you’re a nice guy Eamon! It seems like a very oppresive bunch of measures however. I mean I like the wealth tax, but… does it get cheaper to raise kids when they hit twelve, or more expensive? And rent allowance has been cut for three years in a row, experts in the area like SVP claim through studies that people need that amount, already 1 in 5 are in deprivation. Only a heartless powermonger (like hitler) would make the poor and vulnerable pay for the sins of the rich. Don’t hurt the needy for the sins of the greedy!
Also: PRIORITISE HIGHEST YIELD INCOME VIA KEY EXPENDITURE.
I mean: WIND TURBINES. If we have anything to spend, spend it in in renewable energy. If we have some if the the highest wind energy potential in Europe- let’s assist our citizens in making it work. Sell the energy. REAP THE REWARDS. Norway use what resources they have and then distribute excellent care for their citizens. Untapped potential: wind. Ignored in the boom. Ignored post boom. *angry me*.
Keep VAT as it is, lower PAYE for the lower bracket. Increase PAYE for higher earners (> 75k). Wage cap / reduction on high level civil servants.
GET PEOPLE SPENDING
The government are too closed minded looking for ‘savings’. Why not look for ‘earnings’ instead? This country will never recover while the people are being bled dry, and being suffocated by rafts of tax increases and other stealth taxes and charges.
Increasing VAT will have the effect of closing down smaller retailers, and people losing jobs – whether its the shops taking the hit, or passing on the increase to customers, revenue will decrease. The result of a VAT increase will be an overall reduction in VAT income for the government. Stupid, stupid people we have in power.
Do they actually think about what they are doing before they devise these budgets? We’ve already had 3 harsh enough ones, we need to be let loose to an extent and allowed to spend.
The reason we’ve had three harsh budgets and have more to come because there was a €20bn gap between tax income and spending. That’s now around €12.5bn, but needs to be decreased further.
And even if there was a budget which encouraged spending, I don’t think it would make that great a difference because of the constant news coming from across Europe re the euro.
In fairness, the reason that we’ve hit such a cataclysmic place is the bank guarantee’s having distorted our debt burden.
Deficit needs to be reduced or eliminated, no question, but wild government spending is not what’s gotten us here.
@ Niall: And yet at the same time we didn’t have any kind of sustainable tax system. We had one built almost entirely on property taxes. I agree the bank guarantee is a major part of the problem, but even if that had never happened in 2008 and the banks had collapsed, there would still be tax increases and spending cutbacks.
“Deficit needs to be reduced or eliminated, no question, but wild government spending is not what’s gotten us here.”
Not true. More than half of the gov’t debt increase (from 40% to 100% Debt/GDP) in the past three years is down to the structural budget deficit and the 40% debt/GDP we started with was not because of the banks.
Increase the tax on non-primary residences from the current paltry €200 to €1,000(or greater) per annum. Assuming there are approximately 200,000 private rented dwellings in the country, this would yield €80 million for the exchequer and further dis-incentivise property investors/speculators/landlords hoovering up properties for monetary gain like they did during the boom.
Property investors and bankers conspired to buy up properties en masse, thereby reducing supply and placing housing- a basic right – beyond the reach of first time buyers and forcing people to move miles away from family and friends just to put a roof over their heads.
Added to this economic toll is the social toll that this ‘investment’ splurge has wrought, with settled, well established housing estates blighted almost overnight by a rash of badly maintained and presented rental properties: you can spot them a mile away. That is not to mention the flight of established residents from neighbourhoods as a result of anti-social tenants moving into these ‘investments’. Many estates throughout Dublin have effectively become ‘landlord-ised’, and the results are not pretty.
In the current climate, the last thing we need is landlords with money in the bank (and most of them have plenty of it) invading the estate agents and auction houses taking advantage of reduced prices. Housing should be for living in and should never again be the subject of greedy speculation. If you want to speculate, do it on something else!
In this budget, I believe landlords should pay the price for the economic and social damage that they have caused. However, with many of our TD’s owning several properties each, I can’t see this happening.
While I agree with some of your sentiments TJD, you come uncomfortably close to sounding like the landed gentry yourself.
People who rented here during the Tiger are still solvent – those who have jobs – so be careful how you present your argument.
Not everyone landlord is as unscrupulous as you suggest you know. We couldn’t afford to keep our house, but couldn’t sell it because of the drop in house prices (and before you say it, no, we didn’t have an excessive mortgage) so we had to rent it and emigrate. The rent we get doesn’t make the mortgage, we still have to make up the balance.
A better idea would be to force the banks to restructure the mortgages so they’re closer to their actual value, thereby reducing the burden on home owners and landlords, who can then lower the rents on retail units.
It’d be a good start anyway.
The Budget
1-Give all politians a flat rate sallery of 40k per year
2-Earners over 50k-pay 40% tax
3-Earners over 100k-pay 50% tax
4- Earners over 150k-pay 60% tax
5-Reduce the price on cigarettes to 4 euro
6- reduce the price of a pint to 2 euro
7-Earners under 40k-pay 20% tax
8-Childrens allowance 200 euro per child
9-Standerdise a low price on food essentials-cap this
10-Make sure the sick dying and infirmed were assesed and given all essential benifits
11- Bring in a standard 1 euro price for all bus journeys and train journeys within their own provence.
12-Bring in a standard health service for everyone-with contributions made by all earners-on a scale basis
13-Scrap all existing banks-merge them into one Irish Bank-with top personell voted in by all bank a/c holders.
14-cap all bankers sallerys to 100k max for the chairperson and a desending pay scale thereafter.
5 – Reduce the price on cigarettes to 4 euro?
That’d cost money!!
Why do you cheapen and deface your good arguments with idiotic indulgent ones about making toxic carcinogenic and socially destructive substances more available
@Conor Graham. You’re a panic. You’re like a teacher going around correcting the hastily done homework. I’m all for laughing our way out of this one. You can’t feel fear when you’re laughing your head off!
It’s well documented that we are at the threshold where increasing income taxes, especially on the higher earners would actually reduce total tax take.
Hee hee lol
@Reada I’m with you they can take our money but not our souls!!
Those suggestions are ridiculus-
A person earning 100k gets E62,000 after tax.
A person earning 150K gets E64,000 after tax.
Idiotic.
@ Orion, your maths is off
A person on 100k gets E55,000 take home
A person on 150k gets E75000 take home
Increase income tax top rate to 45%, third rate of tax for earners over 125k, a vat rate of 30% to off licenses, a local tax system similar to the old domestic rate.
On outgoings: introduce the free GP scheme quicker, keep
Minimum wage intact.
Cut corporation tax to 10% ( to piss the French and Germans off)
Scrap Croke park, will never work, pay cut of 20% on all above 50k and sliding scale under 50k, by reducing wages can keep them all working as it will never be efficient. So instead of cutting services to people that need them, cut wages.
Cut the freebies to people who can afford them.
Ban sales of alcohol in supermarkets
…
Ok Very simplistic, I admit I have not done any figures, but I`m sure the “experts” here will soon advise if a good or bad idea! there are something in the region of 770,00 res mortgages worth €115 Billion in Ireland (correct please if misinformed), anyway if the Govt were to order an immediate 10% reductions off all res mortgages, would this cover all in at least 12 month arrears, and fopr those not in arrears they woukld be able to spend this 10% to jumpstart the economy..
I would love to see someone work this out and see what the implications would be.. to be honest I`m too lazy..(“,)
Nice idea in principle, as most people with mortages bought under falsely inflated prices. The banks however effectively run the government, and the legality of such a move would anyway be questinable. What might be done here is like what the DA of the state of ? did recently in the states, taking the five biggest banks to court. If we sued the biggest banks as a state then THEY could pay our debts they created through DODGY practices instead of US paying them!!
Hold a referendum, that would allow the Irish people to decide the rates of pay, pensions and expenses for all politicians and Higher Civil Servants.
No salary to be more than the average industrial wage.
All expenses to be agreed for essentials only.
The same will apply to the ordinary P.A.Y.E worker, those who fund the system.
No State pension to be more than the minimum wage, in the future and retrospectively.
No State pension to be drawn down until retirement age , as applies to all citizens of the Republic of Ireland.
These rates to apply to Public sector pay, and to be enshrined in the Constitution.
Taxation according to earnings, cap on all wages 150.000 and no more. Delay public spending except where absolutely necessary. Try to keep people at work as a priority because paying people to do nothing is very poor practice, it gives people the habit of idleness and loss of “energy”. Our country needs young , focussed, energetic and hardworking young people if we are to survive. Hard work and dedication does pay off and rewards for this work should always be a consideration. Public service workers need to be spared their expensive taxation.
Health and education a priority, education for the success of the future. We must look after our senior citizens, they are the people who worked for the country whan all the rest had to emigrate. We must try to keep as many of our young and well educated people here for the future of the country.
Sounds like communism to me
Sounds like perfect sense to me
get rid of all of them (especially the empty seats whenever anything is televised), stop payments to biffo and the other useless lot immediately, hold whoever is responsible for anything they signed off like you do in private companies, arrest quinn and the other lot, make bono and friends pay tax in ireland, make them all fly ryanair, take the bus or else, sell the government useless jets, get hold of the ones that signed off all these impossible salaries and do something to them…whatever it is, where is that rogue solicitor lynn?, make mr. quinn really pay his debts (and get all the developers to hand over everything they put wherever), make them homeless for a change etc., get rid of all quangos and that useless senate and if necessary…change the laws. give nurses bonus for a change…i don’t know where to stop. anyway, nobody should earn more than say 100.000 €and if they whinge that they could go international…let them, whoever it is. has anybody ever noticed that most of our representatives never worked a day in their lives, are ex-teachers, ex-solicitors and would’nt know the price of kerrygold in germany. come back michael collins
way too much to read above – but a great question to ask – oooh a little app for this would be lovely.
and i think you’d find most irish people would favour NOT paying back (all of) our “loans”
so there’s your 3.8bill saving!
But then you’ve the ever so slight problem of having to cut €12.5bn in the budget rather than €3.8bn when those paying our bills get annoyed!
Sell the Aran Islands. Problem solved.
Who wants to touch me?
Rip up unsecured bonds, reduce vat on alcohol sales in pubs and restaurants to 18%, increase vat on alcohol sales in supermarkets to 23%, allow pubs to introduce half litre glasses as a choice instead of a pint..Introduce the water charge now”if only to stop the negligent waste of it”.Reduce the carbon tax, introduce a universal tax on all unemployment and invalidity payments of 2%
Let me guess , your a publican with an expensive low but low emissions car, that the type of selfless economics we need ;)
Tackle the public service pensions. Draw a line in the sand at 31/12/2011. Any increments paid up to then would be time apportioned. For example, an employee who has worked 5 years of a proposed 40 years, who has been told they will get 2/3 of their final salary of say €50,000 will get 5/40th and no more. Then from 01/01/2012, any public service employees wishing to invest in a pension can do so in the same fashion as every other worker in the country.
You do realise that public service workers contribute to their pensions in the same way that a private sector worker does? ……..right?
Public servants already invest in a pension (as their pension is actually contributory, contrary to the myth). Also, they cannot receive 2/3 of their final salary on retirement because they actually receive a maximum of 1/2 their final salary assuming they serve 40 years service.
Poor Sara and Brian. Don’t mind the greedy gobshites. From a private sector family brought up in a public sector family I think ye’re great
It’s important to stick to the facts.
The notion that public servants pay for their pensions is fanciful. They do however contribute to their pensions. The problem is they dont contribute enough. Ok, so the specifics of my previous example were for illustrative purposes only. But I will give a factual case. Take a second level teacher who commenced working in 2008. Their final salary after 40 years sevice will amount to €61,683. Upon retirement they will receive a lump sum of €92,524 and an annual pension thereafter of €18,824. The full value of this retirement pot is €563,124 based on an annuity rate on retirement of 4%. If a private sector worker wanted to have the same pension, they would have to make monthly contributions of €1,173.18 each month for 40 years. This would simply not be possible for almost every worker in the country.
I am simply saying that we cannot afford, as a country, to continue to pay for this level of pension. We are facing into a public sector pensions bill of €125bn in the coming years that we simply cannot afford.
Keith, if you wish to be pedantic then, yes, public servants “contribute” to their pensions as opposed to investing in them. Based on your figures, could you please clarify what the current pension deduction is for the teacher mentioned, as you neglected to allow for comparison?
Radical overhaul of Local Authorities – reduce in number & rationalise boundaries to create a more efficient Local Government
Re-introduce domestic rates in lieu of property charges, water charges, bin charges etc. Rates would be calculated based on site value and consumption of core services and would vary from authority to authority depending on local needs to provide a fair and equitable taxation with clear and defined returns to the citizen.
This would give local authorities a bigger budget to respond locally to local issues, including job creation through enterprise boards, and would allow for a reduction in scale of central government administration.
This would encourage greater involvement from the electorate in electing local councillors with real powers and would reduce parochialism and clientelism in national government.
Outsource majority of local service provision & maintenance contracts to private companies locally to promote efficient delivery of services, with a core administrative and management team remaining in local authority to negotiate contracts and ensure compliance with strict standards of delivery.
Reduce VAT rates to encourage consumer spending.
Tax children’s allowance.
Abolish termination payments to politicians who fail to get re-elected.
Additional tax band for earners over €100k.
join the commonwealth, more trading markets. history is history and should be left there! new day new beginning new opportunities, prospects and prosperities.
There really are some head bangers on this site. There is a clear view that the way out if this mess is to screw public servants, cut salaries (not just high ones) , adjust children allowance etc. Get real…….default, to some degree or other, is the only way out
We’re still running a deficit that would need to be closed, no?
cut crazy politician salaries – cant be that people cant find work and can NOT survive on the dole and politicians get skyrocket high salaries and joking on the radio that the wives tell them they cant wait to the next salary as they have spent all on shopping….may sound a bit pathetic but its NOT – lets adjust poor and rich….generally change. just cut their wages!!!
Cap public service pay at €100,000!
Almost 2 grand a week should be good enough for anyone, to live comfortably and happily!! but there just too bloody greedy!
This alone would save €650,000,000 EVERY single year!
Why is everyone so focused on Taxing what doesn’t apply to them. Nearly everyone on less than €100k a year, wants to tax those on more than €100k a year. Super tax for the super rich. Increase tax on things that don’t involve me, cigarettes, alcohol, etc.
The economic crisis and budget deficit effects everyone in Ireland, not just those who’ve done better in previous years, or are later in to their careers where they are getting benefits from their expertise and long term commitment to their professions.
There is no denying that their are people and trouble in Ireland and there are people who will sail through this recession (some maybe more literally than others) without any financial difficulties, but the proposals are all looking a bit too Robin Hood. In essence, it seems that everyone would be quite happy redistributing everyone’s wealth to give everyone an equal amount.
Communism is all nice and well in theory, but Ireland can’t seem to be punishing those who educated themselves, worked hard and are now comfortable. Yes the property developers screwed us over, and those who owe millions and in some cases billions should be jailed. But there is still no need to take it out on those who earned their wealth legimately.
The fairest thing. no tax on the first €10,000 of all earning and 50% tax for “everyone” there after, no exceptions. Everyone will pay their fair share in accordance of what they can, those who earn more pay more but it is ultimately a team effort to stabilize the economy.
Took you a fair time to type all that tobias but no thanks. We don’t like the sound of that at all.
@Réada Quinn: Only a few minutes. And my point was that people don’t want to do what the country really needs. This is a recession and the country is broke, you’re not meant to like the ideas that are needed, if you did that’s when we should worry.
My point was exactly that everyone wants other people to sort it out, they all want politicians to come up with a strategy, and other people to pay for it. It’s not a feasible situation to have 70% of the country sitting back complaining about the mess we’re in, blame it all on politicians and get the wealthy to bail us out.
There clearly is no patriotism left in Ireland, this should be a team effort. We should all work together to get us out of trouble. But you’re point sums it up entirely “we don’t like the sound of that at all”. I wont be surprised at all when the budget comes out and everyone is in uproar at the proposals but shocked we’re still in a recession.
I made a good few posts further up on what I’d do. And you’d just love to live in my ideal country. I’d make sure to take care of everyone but everyone would pull their weight and want to cos they’d know they were valued and loved. And I’m very patriotic too but people would come first, always. Have work in the morning so have to go.
Reada, please stop claiming to post on behalf of anyone except youself. If you don’t like that, fine. ‘we’ might agree with the post though.
Sorry P Wurple. You’re dead right. I can only speak for myself.
Tax child benefit.
No child benefits after the second child (not to be applied retrospectively).
Reduce social welfare benefits.
Remove all benchmarking from the public sector and introduce a performance based compensation scheme.
Carry out a comprehensive review of all public sector positions and remove unnecessary staff.
Improve investment in Irish owned SMEs.
Reduce employer PRSI for the first year of a new appointment.
Some good ideas. But… why tax something that’s assumedly the minimum payment necessary to survive, it’s idiotic logic. And how say no child benefits after 2nd child, in a country where abortion is illegal, catholic.
Contraceptives aren’t illegal Conor.
Taxing child benefit hits the high earners without the cost of means testing.
1.I’m not sure I know what you mean by ‘taxing child benefit’ on the surface it sounds like if someone’s getting 100 euros CB a week they lose, say 15% through tax? If so, how does this hit high earners? Or do you mean something different?
2. How is means testing a big cost? You just ask people to fill in a form with evidence to show their means. The brass tacks of it is, you’re implying that people claiming CB who don’t need it can still do so, whilst people who sorely need it should have it cut or blocked altogether.
And re No CB after 2nd child, I know they’re not illegal, but none are both 100% safe and 100% effective. Surely in Ireland we need more kids, not less, as in 40 years the Irish workforce’d be very week if families had 1 kid.
It could be taxed in the upper tax limit so that those on lower incomes aren’t affected.
I absolutely believe that people who don’t need child benefit shouldn’t receive it but there are administration costs associated with this, like any system.
Also, studies have been done to show that means-testing adversely affect people that do need the benefit due to take-up being affected: http://www.econometricsociety.org/meetings/esem02/cdrom/papers/171/measerr4%281%29.pdf
The culture of paying for people to have as many children as they want needs to leave. If you can’t afford to have 2 children, you really shouldn’t be having any more.
Give everybody € 1000 …. and most (all?) people will spend it. 21% will immediately go back to government even if you pi$$ it up the wall. It will create jobs and every body will feel good about having money to spend… Think it sounds silly???? Australia did it a couple of years ago and it didn’t go into recession…
Introduce a tax on investments of 1% above 10Million
Super tax state pensions above 80K
Introduce a job security tax on public sector workers above 50K
Go ahead with the medical card charge
Do not change VAT
Increase tax on cigarettes to effectively €10 for 20 pack
Extra tax on earnings above 150K
no country should have a budget deficit. should taxation policies are a must. firstly and most importantly the user pays. those who can pay should those who genuinely can’t shouldn’t, why do we insist on punishing the sick and elderly. paye should be consolidated if that means higher so be it, but get rid of all these stupid levies and the likes.. … we should be honest with our taxes and what there used for! user pays……. abolish road tax as is, add it to the price of fuel and it’s readily collectible. extra taxes on foods high in sugar, fat and salt. Extra taxes on betting, it’s not necessary. extra taxes on text messages. abolish local government along with the opw they are not fit for purpose and waste’s much needed funds. abolish the hse for the same reasons and have the staff at the department of health running the department of health and in turn answering to the minister of the day. state bodies should not have to pay other state bodies for goods and services, robbing peter to pay paul! lastly the government have their fingers in alto of pies! why do the esb need to earn a billion euros in profit, lower costs, let people spend more, one euro spent has the potential to earn 25 euros in taxes. sorry for the long post, Paddy.
Take a new idea. (1) free education and health for everyone. (2) pay everyone of working age half the avg industrial wage instead of dole. Cut ALL automatic benifits and only pay needs on the basis of genuine verified need. (3) tax all income at 10% up to avg ind wage including the state payment, then 20% on double that, 40% up to 3 times that. 50% over 100 thousand. Make all employees public or private pay a portion of their state oldage pension. Make all employers public or private do the same. These figures need to be worked out independently of politicians or parties or senior civil servants. Cut public expenditure by giving a choice of current high wages less expenses or avg national wage for each profession or trade with verified expenses. Cut all private suppliers to the public service that cost more than the public service supplier. Extend the croke park agreement to all workers or tear it up and replace it with a dole payment for all on the basis of half the avg industrial wage.
On your 20% and 40% rates of tax. By your calcs, say av wage is 40,000.
Someone on 40,000 would take home 32,000
Someone on 60,000 would take home 36,000
Why would someone work their asses off to gain promotion etc, to gain an extra 4,000?
This tax thing isn’t as easy as you’d think, is it?
@mik: I don’t know how feasible it is- but a tax on texts would be such a money spinner.
A) Move all public employees to a defined contribution pension and close the lid in defined benefit.
B) Reform public sector productivity. Reward high performers and put none performers on improvement plans. Those who can’t perform don’t progress.
C) introduce a higher tax band and close non-domicile tax loop holes
D) leave FDI alone. Forget exports, agri-food. Without the likes of IBM, google, BookFace …etc …etc Ireland is back to the stone age.
Cut minimum wage for under 25′s by 1 euro. However this cannot be retroactive on existing employee’s. All companies who hire u25′s who have been unempyed for a year are granted a waiver on employer PRSI contribution. This would lower costs of employment and tackle the core group of unemployed who are young males. It also lower costs of hiring for employers.
Under what mode of logic do you assume that cutting wages for under 25′s would ‘tackle’ [this] core group of unemployed] And, why are people picking on them? Surely if someone has left home and is 20 they should get the same pay for the same work? It’s just ageism. The government’s of Ireland have been guilty of it too, they tried it with the elders’ pensions, the cut dole for the under 25′s… just trying to bully people perceived to have less of a voice is all.
It seems the only solution for Ireland is to turn into a capitalist society. Socialism is bleeding us dry. Make the budget designed for those who try and work the hardest to earn the most and contribute the most:
1) Cut the number of TDs in the Dail, there are far too many for our tiny country.
2) Limit their salaries to the minimum wage + bonuses for legislation, activism, and contributions to Ireland.
3) Cut the minimum wage to €5/hr, more employers could then afford more employees.
4) Have the first €12,000 exempt from tax and a blanket rate of 50% on everyone thereafter, No exceptions.
5) Cut funding to all nonessential campaigns, RSA, €32million, but that into a public transport system that works.
6) Create a public transport system that works, increase spending here and try to generate profits as well as cut unemployment.
7) This would also lower CO2 admissions, Green policy that increases profit.
8) Social Welfare Limited to 100,000 people who are most in need, no more.
9) Lower VAT, less cost, more spending, ultimately more tax earned.
10) Financial Crisis solving, too many people, too many houses – hire people to take down unused and low grade housing, build a park in its place, short and long term benefits.
11) Give people who have paid their mortgages and owe no money the option to move to a nicer house that is being foreclosed by property developers, take the house they moved out of and put those who owe the most into the least accommodation.
12) Full fees for Third level Education and small fees for national secondary education, grants only for those of the 100,000 on social welfare.
There is plenty plenty more sensible, necessary things that can and should be done. But twelve is enough for now. And there is no point saying cutting social welfare will effect those most in need or that full fees will mean people wont be able to get an education. The country has no money, it owes money. The goal at the moment is to stabilise the economy, create more jobs. Emigration will actually help with this, so this should not necessarily be discouraged. And once things get better it can be looked at the slowly and careful bring back in things like universal healthcare and education and social funding and money for campaigns. But right now we need to triage the economy, whether we like it or not, we’re all in this together and everyone is going to have to make small necessary sacrifices.
1. The money in spent in Ireland should stay in Ireland (or at least the majority of it) – That means putting more pressure on foreign utility providers selling direct to the Irish domestic market from abroad
2. All road building and public construction contracts be issued to Irish owned and run construction companies
3. Road tax should be set for ALL Private vehicles at a standard €200 while the rest is recovered in Fuel
4. Bring back co-ops for farming produce and let the co-ops control the costs
5. Jobseekers to be removed from dole queue and put into a job centre where they turn up each morning and work for the community in turn for slightly higher payment than current dole offering
6. Welfare to be kept purely for those that are not fit for work and means tested twice annually where applicable.
7. Remove all public payment power such as Rent Allowance, fuel, medical card etc from HSE and put it under control of welfare department which will be subjected to same means testing process.
8. Ammend Law to force NAMA to lease ghost estate houses at a low cost to councils and make council responsible for ALL housing requirements.
9. Public sector pay to be capped at 100k including government ministers
10. Transition of public sector pension to private pension schemes. Those wishing to continue pension to pay for their own pension post transistion with small employers contribution from government
Public servants actually pay for their pension already.
Why does nobody seem to realise that?!
Some people prefer to believe populist myths.
Firstly
croke park in the bin in terms of salary cuts, reform most go on.
anyone earning 50k in the public sector plus reduce wages on an increasing scale upwards. county managers in some local authorities earning 140000 is just ridiculous.many other examples across public sector including hospital consultants etc.
Secondly in the state we are in paying public servants 1.5 times their final salaries lump sum and then half there salaries as a pension is the biggest ponzy scheme ever. start again at people which get a pension of 30,000 and reduce increasingly increasingly with a maximum pension of say 70,000. who needs more than this to live??
25 million txts sent every day in ireland, put a half or one cent tax on it, numbers easy to figure out.
reduce old age pension and minimum wage but reduce vat accordingly so they are no worse off. added bonus of people spending more and the ability for employers to employ more people.
merge a load of local authorities and centralise recruitment and personal departments. transfer excess clerical officers into the gardai to do paperwork and put more gardai on the street. get them to sign strict confidentiality clauses.
put a levy on off license sales. ff reckin a 5% levy will bring in 100 million. can’y trust their figure but put a 10 -15% levy on alcohol sales.
increase excise on cigarettes.
scrap child benefit for people who dont need it.
reduce the dole of people who never worked before 2006 for a period of time.
there are people in tis country who send their kids to private school and then pay dan all in college fees, there has to be some scope for increased fees on a large range of society.
increase the term of people mortgage in difficulty to say 60 years but with no increased interest payment. at least maybe in ten years or so they migt be able to starting paying back at a increased rate when things are improved and inflation will have reduced the size of the debt. worse case they would own a large percentage of their property which they could sell to buy somewhere else or leave to their children.
in time when things inprove bring in water rates and property taxes but this should only be done so for a decrease in vat or fuel or social services and not just to pay back the troika. the amount of water people waste in this country is a scandal. the property tax should hopefully prevent an extensive hosuing bubble from ever occurring again.
release a load of people out of prison who are in for petty theft, non serious offences. let them clean streets,build cycle ways, many more things they could do and get skilled at beside the taxpayer paying to have them behind bars, if they are released and dont go thru with it, send them back for longer, the choice is theirs.
i would also sat there is some scope for increasing taxes slightly on some higher payed individuals.
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.progressive-economy.ie%2F2011%2F12%2Fchild-benefit-and-our-values.html&h=7AQHJJgZIAQFEge-VkiQwU4jRY2lPTYJvo_cBiPZT_9tfWA
This is the view of the experts, and there is many good articles that give an informed opinion on different suggested ways of generation income rather than targeting the poor and the vulererable.
let’s take it easy with the witch hunts and stonings and focus on the key issues. and never mind the irelevance of the budget, or central banks printing money or sarkozy’s nuremberg rally and other fiddlings while rome burns. the system is dying and no end of sticky plasters will resuscitate it. but it’s good news. this crash is an unexpected last chance opportunity for us all. the planet is being destroyed at an alarming rate and the main motor of that destruction is consumerism – one of the pillars of free market capitalism, along with gambling, greed, usury and debt. so let us help it to die by ireland making a total default on our foreign debt and starting again – that’s what i call a root and branch budget!. let’s lead the way out of insanity to a sustainable future for our children. let us be a generation that can be proud, not ashamed, of what we have done with our planet home.
see how:
I propose a ‘pay as you go’ toilet tax as an alternative to water meters
I’d turn to our ‘non human capital… Perhaps selling off some national assets, An Post, the airports, off shore gas reserves and other natural resources? Not sure who would buy them, but maybe investment funds companies? I suspect that they may be sold on the cheap though….
Maybe we do this already but another option might be to offer non European zone students irish residency as an incentive to attract them to Irish colleges and universities, colleges and universities could charge €10,000 per academic year… I’d suspect that thousands of Indian/Chinese students could be attracted to the passport and EU options it could lead to…. And they stimulate our economy in the process by paying high fees, increasing vat by simply living here….. I dunno, do we do this already?
Selling off state assets is just ridiculous
It makes no financial sense. You don’t sell off any if the thing that generates income. It’s selling our future.
The word hasn’t been invented to describe how stupid, moronic and imbecilic it is. It makes no sense!
I didn’t mean you – just the idea. Don’t believe all the BS please.
@ Réada: Not if it is strategic though and not the money raised is used to fund a new generation of state assets.
There’d be nothing strategic about it Ryan. We know that. And the money generated will just go down the black hole. It’s pure desperation. It’s not even as bad as pawning the family silver for a week’s groceries – it’s more like selling the breadwinner, losing all that they were to provide, for a week’s groceries.
I really think this idea has to be shown for the stupidity it is.
I know you disagree with everything I say Ryan but please give me this one.
What about the international student scenario? Do they already pay?
on the international students incentive to education – we do this already, mostly in medicine and their fees subsidise the budget to cover the irish students participating in said course.
If we are to target education we should introduce fees along with a company/corporate sponsorship scheme whereby the student goes to a company asking for sponsorship to enter into a relevant course that the company has a position to fill. the company will pay the uni fees and subsidise small expenses (bursary) to the student giving greater incentive to them to succeed and with a garinteed job to walk into afterwards put their minds at ease and an end to this huge worry recent graduates have
I don’t disagree with everything you say Réada. And you have yet to respond to my question on the unprofitable Aer Lingus or explain to me why we need two state owned energy companies supposedly competing against one another.
Let me be clear, I am only in favour of selling state assets where the money is invested in a new broadband company and a water company. That to me is strategic. Likewise I am in favour of selling the lotto license to build the Children’s Hospital. Afterall the Lotto already funds good causes and I can’t think of a better cause. And I can’t see a better way for a cash strapped government to pay for it.
I think you need to check the facts – Aerlingus is profitable, and has been for most of the last ten years.
Thank you Ryan. I’m glad you don’t disagree with everything I say. You’re getting a hard time here and I commend you on your tenacity and don’t really want to add to your woes.
You didn’t specify any particular state asset in your question Ryan. But regardless, I feel that one can always come up with a seemingly good reason to do a foolish thing, so my attitude remains that notions of selling state assets are misguided and myopic although the Children’s Hospital is honourable. I want to have a future for mine also.
@ Ryan
I think your pitch at selling state assets is being presented wrong. Aer Lingus profits go into their second largest stakeholder, Ryanair hence why they haven’t gone tits up like they nearly did some years ago.
What you may mean to say is open up the markets where two national energy companies are competing against themselves and bring better competition for the consumers pocket, we have that already with the likes of Airtricity although due to poor regulation nobody seems to be winning in that sector. We also have enough broadband companies, the problem we have is within the National Broadband Scheme and the telecom regulator not getting their acts together to roll out next generation broadband nationwide evenly. From travelling around Ireland the last year particularly I have found huge pockets of inferior and inadequate coverage as was proposed be implemented by these bodies so therefore someone’s job needs to go there..
Hmmm… Selling public assets to bailout banks… Great idea there, cavanbythesea… How about we go one step further and privatise our hospitals and prisons too, it seems to work well in other countries…
@ Réada: Just coming back to this now. Firstly I don’t mind if people criticise me, I have no “woes” because people disagree me on theJournal.ie I can’t understand why you have came to that conclusion. I’ve challenged people on here on their suggestions and I like to be challenged myself. And re the questions, I previously asked re selling Aer Lingus and the two state owned energy companies on a previous post.
@ Stephen: I’m currently down in Wexford on terrible broadband. This rather long page took several minutes to fully load (and I’m hoping this post will go through!). And I’m in an area where the National Broadband Scheme has apparently been fully implemented by 3. We can’t get Eircom or any fixed line broadband here because of old lines. That’s the key issue I’d want the new semi state broadband company to deal with, by taking back control of the telephony system from Eircom.
Re Aer Lingus, the government owns 25% so would get a proportionate share of the dividends. And the situation most recently saw Ryanair have a 20% share in Aer Lingus. Why does our government need a minority shareholding in an airline? €300m (the estimated value of the shares) into broadband seems better to me.
@ Dave: Not in 2008 or 2009.
Ryan. I was only joking about the woes – just meant all the red thumbs. I’m sure they don’t bother you, I get my fair share too and they don’t bother me either. Btw I have no problem with you as you’ve never come across as nasty and I also believe that we need people like you weighing things up, just wish there could be a bit of room for eegits like me too. Don’t think all decisions should be made on a purely economic basis, no harm in letting the heart rule the head now and then.
Think I’ve made myself fairly clear on the selling of state assets. I’ve only recently received an email if someone replies to my posts, so sorry if I missed your previous question.
Enjoy your night in Wexford, notwithstanding the awful broadband.
Make all pensions in the state standardised ie: everyone gets the same amount from the state on retirement €300 pw no golden handshakes
Children’s allowance to households below 50k only
Bank transactions 5% tax
Text messages 2cent per
All phone calls 5cent per
10 cent tax per hour on line
Vat standard at 15%
Alcohol 50 cent tax per unit
Pensions in excess of 50k per year 30% tax there after
No sick pay after 12 weeks
Capital projects to be manned by unemployed builders with 120€ extra for 40 hours work
Capital projects one is a good idea. A public works scheme like that would hopefully help us build the Luas and Dart Underground projects at a far cheaper price.
2 cent on texts is interesting, but they are already subject to VAT.
Sick pay – it depends on the situation. If someone has a serious illness e.g. cancer/stroke then its a different story.
interesting that so many people are quick to slate every government decision, but so few have any better ideas.
ha your all funnni NOT id leave everything the way it is we are in a major crisis here please most ppl in ireland are on the dole because of buget cuts and our stupid goverment how say nearly every month that they have a solution well the one solutoin i have is u can stick ur solution up ur ass and stop bein a pack of assholes and make the right dicessin by puttin us first and not u guys
Pretty much this:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/21/us-crisis-idUSTRE7AK0EP20111121
I especially like the quotes about being a good liberal being connected to being economically sound in the long run
If you could get some if your mentors and their golden circle cronies to throw in their Celtic Tiger nest eggs, especially the contents of overseas bank accounts, that would help. In a spirit of true FF patriotism.
Debt forgiveness. Say a big whups I’m really sorry and its wont happen again spiel to the IMF and ECB and agree all bets are off aka reset the debt.
There problem their in is solved.
Everyone would pull their weight? Nice idea, but are you quite sure they would?
Call me an optimist Dave. I’d rather hope for the best and be disappointed now and then rather than always expecting the worst. Btw you sound like an optimist yourself.
Some people we waiting to be asked this haha
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