Support from readers like you keeps The Journal open.
You are visiting us because we have something you value. Independent, unbiased news that tells the truth. Advertising revenue goes some way to support our mission, but this year it has not been enough.
If you've seen value in our reporting, please contribute what you can, so we can continue to produce accurate and meaningful journalism. For everyone who needs it.
A MAN IN his 40s has died after he was struck by an SUV in Co. Louth.
The collision happened last night at about 10.20pm on the N51 Slane to Drogheda road.
Advertisement
Gardaí said that the pedestrian was struck by the SUV and was taken by ambulance to Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital where he was pronounced dead on arrival.
The driver of the vehicle was uninjured in the incident.
The road remains closed this morning to allow for an examination of the scene by garda investigators.
Readers like you are keeping these stories free for everyone...
A mix of advertising and supporting contributions helps keep paywalls away from valuable information like this article.
Over 5,000 readers like you have already stepped up and support us with a monthly payment or a once-off donation.
it used to be the case that the crap treatment if juniors was compensated by the relative good treatment as a GP or consultant (part of which was a basic level of respect for the profession).
Nowadays, thanks to the total JoeDuffyication of public discourse and constant attacks on working conditions, it’s crap as a senior medic too.
So the country haemorrhages doctors, and those of us still here are thoroughly demoralized.
We have a great relationship with our GP. Sometimes the visit only requires 5mins of her time, sometimes over an hour. She is always available when we need her. We might have to wait in the surgery for an hour while she gives her time to a previous patient but we know that if we need her time, we will have it too while everyone else waits. She works hard for her money. I wouldn’t be a doctor for all the money in the world. My daughter has mooted her ideas of perhaps becoming a doctor and I dearly hope she changes her mind. It’s not all coughs and colds passing through their door.
Peter what are you on about? Not everything is the faulty of older people which is a very lazy assessment of what is happening. Nor is everything the fault of public servants. There are many reasons behind the medical brain drain and Ireland is not unique. I know several young doctors from the UK who have moved to Australia. They did this so they could work a 40 hour week, earn good money and enjoy a good lifestyle. Both were working in the NHS in the UK not in Ireland. If we want to retain doctors then we are going to have to change and improve their working conditions and to do this we will need to employ more junior doctors, more consultants and pay GPs more, not less, to see medical card patients. Good health care is expensive. Change is inevitable but it is also going to be expensive. The money is either going to have to come from increased taxation or from elsewhere in the public service. There aren’t any cheap options. Medical professionals are internationally mobile and that is the reality we now have to work within. But Ireland is by no means unique in this regard. Fixing the problem is not going to be easy as it involves very hard (and expensive) political choices and decisions as to how public expenditure should be allocated.
Pick any department. You’ll find the unions so entrenched that its impossible to change anyone’s pay and conditions. They only thing they can do is screw any new people starting (I.e. the young people). Older people can retire on their big fat defined benefit pensions that are only a crazy dream for anyone under 30.
In part you’re right peter. Look at the consultant contract, if a new consultant started he might make half or a third of his colleagues. What did the existing consultants do when the new salary was reduced by 30% – nothing.
Totally agree, unfortunately Mary Harney and James Reilly were only able to introduce poor conditions for young consultants and GPs because they allowed the older generation keep their more attractive contracts. Thus the older generation were happy to stand by and watch, safe in the knowledge that their contracts were protected. Unfortunately for them their narrow mindedness will now come back to bite them as they slowly realize that their selfishness has resulted difficulty in finding appropriately qualified colleagues.
It’s a case of availability of opportunities and quality of life unfortunately. Despite what is sometimes said, Ireland offers a high level of undergraduate and post graduate training. It’s how we can still attract the level of applicants we do from Ireland and abroad. We end up generating high numbers of English speaking doctors who have absolutely no problem passing registration and profession examinations in other countries. I’ve met consultants in the UK who actively try to recruit Irish junior docs as they feel that they are more dynamic, independent thinking, and capable than those who come through ‘run-through’ training in the UK
However once they’ve qualified in Ireland it’s not a terribly attractive place to continue to work. If your’e a GP, working in an 8 or9 doctor practice in the UK with time given for training, administration and professional development is far more attractive than trying to set up in Ireland in a 1,2 or 3 Dr Practice and a Medical Card clientele, if you can get one, which you can’t treat properly because the contract is now 30 years out of date.
Most Irish county hospitals cannot recruit Irish junior doctors and the main way they can get them is having them attached there as part of a ‘training’ scheme. A lot of these at SHO level are GP trainees used to prop up failing hospitals that can’t maintain a legal on-call rota. A measure to basically sustain non viable hospitals then results in even more disincentive for juniors to stay in Ireland.
20% have gone but be careful – If my maths is correct there’s still 80% hoping to take your temperature, peep in your ear and then stick their hand out for €60.
- Never forgetting if there’s any uncertainty involved (googling it) or brainpower required they’ll just refer you to A&E – but still ask for their €60 on the way out the door.
Are we supposed to be in it for the good of your health (puns aside)? Being a doctor is a job, and one which we do to earn our daily wage. If the working conditions are poor here and the conditions are better abroad wouldn’t we be fools to stay?
I’d prefer to see doctors who are trained by the taxpayer to look after our sick to give a little back, rather than line their pockets.
Seems ethical and fair to me.
GPs and their pricing cartel for a 5 minute consultation don’t seem to be too worried if people can afford to go to them. Where’s the competition or compassion in that?
Expect away. The simple truth is that when doctors go to college (just as with everyone else in this country) there is no requirement to stay after graduation. Once again, wouldn’t they be fools to put up with poor working conditions when they didn’t have to? And perhaps more time should be spent looking at the conditions that are driving them away as opposed to considering ways to make them stay against their will?
That’s a myth most of medical education is funded by fees charged to foreign students Kuwaiti and Malaysian Andthe north Americans – of course graduate entry students Pay their own way. Cost compares favourably to an arts student
Those who have qualified as doctors and trained as GPs in Ireland have given a minimum of 5 years of service to the public health service. At that point, we are required to go and set up as private businesses, with all associated costs e.g. mortgage for the practice, staff, utilities, equipment, insurance. Until recently it was difficult to even gain the right to see public patients. Those that do deal with 90% of all consultations for 3% of the health budget. Many of the services we provide are effectively for free, as they didn’t exist when the public contract was drawn up and are therefore not reimbursed by the government.
It’s not medical school, it’s postgraduate training. As a training position, it’s tough to get into. It’s much easier get into the UK training scheme, so anyone who wants to leave would go for that scheme, rather than waste time and effort going for the Irish one.
@David. There’s probably a number of places for non EU students. This is normal for pg courses across many disciplines as they bring in huge amounts of money and raise the institute’s profile internationally.
David my daughter is doing post grad medicine and there is a significant amount of non EU students cos believe it or not it’s cheaper here than say the USA or Canada to study medicine, but the vast majority go home when they qualify…who in their right mind would stay here and work those insane hours, they’re downright dangerous.
Hi Anne Marie & Joan, I’m commenting about professional training as a GP, not graduate medical entry training. Entry to GP training is not run by any of the universities, and there are no guaranteed non-EU places.
Entrants must have a medical degree and at least completed their intern year. If people are from the US or UK, they will complete their intern year, then head off home for training. Pretty much anyone who applies to the Irish GP training scheme will plan to stay in ireland, as it’s easier to get onto a UK scheme.
Waste of our limited resources, contract them to work in public system for 10 yes post training or lower entry levels to ensure we have sufficient for our needs.
Do you mean offer them a contract or force them to accept a contract? And the idea of just training more has been mooted before, I’m not sure it’s viable. Each of those new graduates (competency aside) could still decide to go to other countries for better working conditions, so Ireland ends up putting more and more money into training much larger classes of doctors only to see them leave in even larger numbers. Surely the best solution is to find more positive ways to motivate current graduates to stay?
It’s also worth mentioning that our medical schools are a part of the education that is self sustaining, and in many cases profit making because of the number of foreign and post grad students. It’s not costing you a penny Jarlath.
They don’t start with the intention to leave. They eventually leave because they actually care about the patients and the system here eats at their souls.
I love the way the govt thinks just throw money at them, that’ll solve the problem. I suppose that would work for demotivated politicians. There are some people, however, who say: Keep your money, I want change. https://www.flickr.com/photos/15702350@N00/1318737291/
Good man Jarlath, once we bring in indentured servitude for all the history and biotech and architecture and project management and drama and chemistry and archaeology grads, I’m sure doctors wouldn’t mind.
Until then, if you want docs to stay in this godforsaken country you need to make it an attractive option.
For lots of us at this point the only reason we’re still here is because of financial/social/family ties.
When even the GPs are leaving you know things are properly bad.
I have to say that I’m shocked at how low this number is. I’d estimate 60-80% of my engineering year (Trinity College) are now living and working abroad. Doctors have it good in comparison in terms of options for work at home if 80% can find a way to stay.
Every time I go to the GP or consultant I would understand 75% of what they say at first, I must ask them to repeat again and sometimes I end up with the felling that he might have said something else. Not being racists but something as serious as medicine we should be able to understand without question what the doctor says. Sad to see Ireland is not good enough for our doctors but good enough for Asian/African doctors, we became some sort of “In the middle” class for doctors
You’re doing pretty well if you understand 75%. Most studies show that patients might understand just 20% of what goes on in a consultation. Communication is a (very) unexact science, and has to be tailored to each patient, and depends on their background/culture/education.
That comment comes up on these pages with depressing regularity. It’s flawed for a number of reasons. 1. To do that fairly you would have to apply it across all college courses, otherwise you’re just singling out one section of the populace. 2. If you force people to stay you now have a group of thoroughly demotivated doctors who can’t get out of the system – not optimal for the patients under their care each day. 3. You’re only forcing the most junior grades to stay. The more senior grades, especially at the consultant level, will continue to be drawn overseas, and probably even more so in response to this draconian ‘solution’ being applied to doctors. 4. This wouldn’t even come into effect for around 5-6 years (good luck applying it to current med students), and would take even more time after that to have a significant effect on the lack of junior doctors. And finally 5. – probably most importantly, this approach would mean the government doesn’t have to do anything to actually improve working conditions for doctors in Ireland, allowing things to just get worse over time. Did I miss anything?
About 95% of international students would go home. Medical schools take about 50% of their students from abroad, as they need someone to pay for the costs of medical training – as the taxpayer pays relatively little. (Unlike the gibberish that some people might rant about here)
The headline should read; Despite the negative message produced by a ‘whinging about low pay campaign’ which aims to entrench a right to a €250,000 salary (plus private earnings), 80% of 2010′s medical graduates remain in Ireland, while 80% of civil engineering graduates emigrated.
They are, far too high. The reason for this is private (non-medical card holding) patients are effectively subsidising medical card holders, because the medical card scheme is drastically underfunded by the HSE. GPs see 90% of all consultations in the country for 3% of the health budget. In the UK, GPs are given 10% of the budget and were recently campaigning for 11%, as the 9% they were getting at the time was deemed not to be enough.
That €60 isn’t going into the GP’s pocket, it’s making up for their attempt to provide proper healthcare for little money to those who can least afford it.
Forensic garda found different concrete under stairs of Satchwell home 'suspicious', court hears
Updated
2 hrs ago
9.2k
London
Father Ted co-creator Graham Linehan pleads not guilty to harassing young woman
Updated
45 mins ago
13.1k
Road Safety
CCTV from petrol station captured clear images of crash that killed Garda Kevin Flatley
Updated
7 hrs ago
102k
Your Cookies. Your Choice.
Cookies help provide our news service while also enabling the advertising needed to fund this work.
We categorise cookies as Necessary, Performance (used to analyse the site performance) and Targeting (used to target advertising which helps us keep this service free).
We and our 187 partners store and access personal data, like browsing data or unique identifiers, on your device. Selecting Accept All enables tracking technologies to support the purposes shown under we and our partners process data to provide. If trackers are disabled, some content and ads you see may not be as relevant to you. You can resurface this menu to change your choices or withdraw consent at any time by clicking the Cookie Preferences link on the bottom of the webpage .Your choices will have effect within our Website. For more details, refer to our Privacy Policy.
We and our vendors process data for the following purposes:
Use precise geolocation data. Actively scan device characteristics for identification. Store and/or access information on a device. Personalised advertising and content, advertising and content measurement, audience research and services development.
Cookies Preference Centre
We process your data to deliver content or advertisements and measure the delivery of such content or advertisements to extract insights about our website. We share this information with our partners on the basis of consent. You may exercise your right to consent, based on a specific purpose below or at a partner level in the link under each purpose. Some vendors may process your data based on their legitimate interests, which does not require your consent. You cannot object to tracking technologies placed to ensure security, prevent fraud, fix errors, or deliver and present advertising and content, and precise geolocation data and active scanning of device characteristics for identification may be used to support this purpose. This exception does not apply to targeted advertising. These choices will be signaled to our vendors participating in the Transparency and Consent Framework.
Manage Consent Preferences
Necessary Cookies
Always Active
These cookies are necessary for the website to function and cannot be switched off in our systems. They are usually only set in response to actions made by you which amount to a request for services, such as setting your privacy preferences, logging in or filling in forms. You can set your browser to block or alert you about these cookies, but some parts of the site will not then work.
Targeting Cookies
These cookies may be set through our site by our advertising partners. They may be used by those companies to build a profile of your interests and show you relevant adverts on other sites. They do not store directly personal information, but are based on uniquely identifying your browser and internet device. If you do not allow these cookies, you will experience less targeted advertising.
Functional Cookies
These cookies enable the website to provide enhanced functionality and personalisation. They may be set by us or by third party providers whose services we have added to our pages. If you do not allow these cookies then these services may not function properly.
Performance Cookies
These cookies allow us to count visits and traffic sources so we can measure and improve the performance of our site. They help us to know which pages are the most and least popular and see how visitors move around the site. All information these cookies collect is aggregated and therefore anonymous. If you do not allow these cookies we will not be able to monitor our performance.
Store and/or access information on a device 126 partners can use this purpose
Cookies, device or similar online identifiers (e.g. login-based identifiers, randomly assigned identifiers, network based identifiers) together with other information (e.g. browser type and information, language, screen size, supported technologies etc.) can be stored or read on your device to recognise it each time it connects to an app or to a website, for one or several of the purposes presented here.
Personalised advertising and content, advertising and content measurement, audience research and services development 165 partners can use this purpose
Use limited data to select advertising 129 partners can use this purpose
Advertising presented to you on this service can be based on limited data, such as the website or app you are using, your non-precise location, your device type or which content you are (or have been) interacting with (for example, to limit the number of times an ad is presented to you).
Create profiles for personalised advertising 91 partners can use this purpose
Information about your activity on this service (such as forms you submit, content you look at) can be stored and combined with other information about you (for example, information from your previous activity on this service and other websites or apps) or similar users. This is then used to build or improve a profile about you (that might include possible interests and personal aspects). Your profile can be used (also later) to present advertising that appears more relevant based on your possible interests by this and other entities.
Use profiles to select personalised advertising 92 partners can use this purpose
Advertising presented to you on this service can be based on your advertising profiles, which can reflect your activity on this service or other websites or apps (like the forms you submit, content you look at), possible interests and personal aspects.
Create profiles to personalise content 44 partners can use this purpose
Information about your activity on this service (for instance, forms you submit, non-advertising content you look at) can be stored and combined with other information about you (such as your previous activity on this service or other websites or apps) or similar users. This is then used to build or improve a profile about you (which might for example include possible interests and personal aspects). Your profile can be used (also later) to present content that appears more relevant based on your possible interests, such as by adapting the order in which content is shown to you, so that it is even easier for you to find content that matches your interests.
Use profiles to select personalised content 41 partners can use this purpose
Content presented to you on this service can be based on your content personalisation profiles, which can reflect your activity on this or other services (for instance, the forms you submit, content you look at), possible interests and personal aspects. This can for example be used to adapt the order in which content is shown to you, so that it is even easier for you to find (non-advertising) content that matches your interests.
Measure advertising performance 150 partners can use this purpose
Information regarding which advertising is presented to you and how you interact with it can be used to determine how well an advert has worked for you or other users and whether the goals of the advertising were reached. For instance, whether you saw an ad, whether you clicked on it, whether it led you to buy a product or visit a website, etc. This is very helpful to understand the relevance of advertising campaigns.
Measure content performance 69 partners can use this purpose
Information regarding which content is presented to you and how you interact with it can be used to determine whether the (non-advertising) content e.g. reached its intended audience and matched your interests. For instance, whether you read an article, watch a video, listen to a podcast or look at a product description, how long you spent on this service and the web pages you visit etc. This is very helpful to understand the relevance of (non-advertising) content that is shown to you.
Understand audiences through statistics or combinations of data from different sources 88 partners can use this purpose
Reports can be generated based on the combination of data sets (like user profiles, statistics, market research, analytics data) regarding your interactions and those of other users with advertising or (non-advertising) content to identify common characteristics (for instance, to determine which target audiences are more receptive to an ad campaign or to certain contents).
Develop and improve services 95 partners can use this purpose
Information about your activity on this service, such as your interaction with ads or content, can be very helpful to improve products and services and to build new products and services based on user interactions, the type of audience, etc. This specific purpose does not include the development or improvement of user profiles and identifiers.
Use limited data to select content 40 partners can use this purpose
Content presented to you on this service can be based on limited data, such as the website or app you are using, your non-precise location, your device type, or which content you are (or have been) interacting with (for example, to limit the number of times a video or an article is presented to you).
Use precise geolocation data 56 partners can use this special feature
With your acceptance, your precise location (within a radius of less than 500 metres) may be used in support of the purposes explained in this notice.
Actively scan device characteristics for identification 29 partners can use this special feature
With your acceptance, certain characteristics specific to your device might be requested and used to distinguish it from other devices (such as the installed fonts or plugins, the resolution of your screen) in support of the purposes explained in this notice.
Ensure security, prevent and detect fraud, and fix errors 107 partners can use this special purpose
Always Active
Your data can be used to monitor for and prevent unusual and possibly fraudulent activity (for example, regarding advertising, ad clicks by bots), and ensure systems and processes work properly and securely. It can also be used to correct any problems you, the publisher or the advertiser may encounter in the delivery of content and ads and in your interaction with them.
Deliver and present advertising and content 111 partners can use this special purpose
Always Active
Certain information (like an IP address or device capabilities) is used to ensure the technical compatibility of the content or advertising, and to facilitate the transmission of the content or ad to your device.
Match and combine data from other data sources 79 partners can use this feature
Always Active
Information about your activity on this service may be matched and combined with other information relating to you and originating from various sources (for instance your activity on a separate online service, your use of a loyalty card in-store, or your answers to a survey), in support of the purposes explained in this notice.
Link different devices 60 partners can use this feature
Always Active
In support of the purposes explained in this notice, your device might be considered as likely linked to other devices that belong to you or your household (for instance because you are logged in to the same service on both your phone and your computer, or because you may use the same Internet connection on both devices).
Identify devices based on information transmitted automatically 100 partners can use this feature
Always Active
Your device might be distinguished from other devices based on information it automatically sends when accessing the Internet (for instance, the IP address of your Internet connection or the type of browser you are using) in support of the purposes exposed in this notice.
Save and communicate privacy choices 83 partners can use this special purpose
Always Active
The choices you make regarding the purposes and entities listed in this notice are saved and made available to those entities in the form of digital signals (such as a string of characters). This is necessary in order to enable both this service and those entities to respect such choices.
have your say