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Archbishop of Dublin Diarmuid Martin Niall Carson/PA Wire

Martin still in discussions with Mater's Mercy Sisters over abortion law

The Mater Hospital said last year that it will comply with the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act.

ARCHBISHOP OF DUBLIN Diarmuid Martin is still involved in “ongoing” discussions with the Sisters of Mercy over the Mater Hospital’s stance on the new abortion law.

Priest resigns

In October of last year, a priest resigned from the board of the Mater Hospital in Dublin over the hospital’s decision to comply with the government’s abortion legislation, the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act.

The priest, Father Kevin Doran, told the Irish Catholic at the time that he could not reconcile his own conscience with the hospital’s decision.

A spokesperson for Archbishop Martin said yesterday that there has been no conclusion to the talks between him and the Sisters of Mercy.

In its statement last September, the Mater Hospital said that following ‘careful consideration’ of the new legislation, its priority is to be at the “frontier of compassion, concern and clinical care” for all its patients.

Having regard to that duty the hospital will comply with the law as provided for in the act.

The Mater is one of the 25 ‘appropriate institutions’ named in the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act where legal terminations can take place under the provisions of the act.

Martin is believed to have entered discussions with the Sisters of Mercy seven months ago on the issue.

Read: Church’s teachings on marriage and family ‘disconnected from real life’>

Read: Bishops: X Case law would lead to ‘direct, intentional killing of unborn children’>

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102 Comments
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    Mute Rkmr
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    Mar 7th 2014, 7:45 AM

    What are they discussing?? This is the law they have 2 choices abide by the law or break the law and thus are punished for doing so

    163
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    Mute Emilio
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    Mar 7th 2014, 8:24 AM

    Don’t you know? History shows this well, the church cares not for the law. A law unto themselves…

    96
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    Mute Martin Bishop
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    Mar 7th 2014, 8:39 AM

    The church think they are above the law, thats the problem,

    They think its their right to do what they believe is right, unfortunately what they have believed is right in the past led to thousands of children being abused and children being sold off from their mothers!

    95
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    Mute Rkmr
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    Mar 7th 2014, 8:44 AM

    It makes me so angry they get away with all of this sexually abusing children, lying covering it up, abuse of women, abuse of pregnant women, taking babies and having them adopted without mothers consent, illegal vaccine trials done on children in orphanages, selling the bodies of children who have died in these orphanages for medical research all without parental consent or even knowledge.
    It’s a bloody disgrace

    83
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    Mute Edward Casey
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    Mar 7th 2014, 9:44 AM

    @Rkmr: I’d live to see the evidence of the vaccine trials or the selling if bodies for scientific research.

    11
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    Mute Rkmr
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    Mar 7th 2014, 10:10 AM

    No problem primetime episode here, if you watch it all you will see a piece on bodies being used in medical training without mothers consent or knowledge http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PVRQzWo-1CA&feature=youtu.be

    Lots of new article just google and you will find them here’s an example of some
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/victim-reveals-horror-of-vaccine-trials-secret-legacy-26674008.html

    http://www.irishcentral.com/news/horrific-documentary-reveals-hundreds-of-irish-babies-used-in-medical-research-and-dissection-131353793-237416651.html

    34
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    Mute Charles Byrne
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    Mar 7th 2014, 10:38 AM

    An unjust law is no law. They actually have one choice, disobey this freemasonic sanctioning of murder. Law is a means to an end, it is not the end in itself. Justice is the end of law. Many despotic governments in the past legalised the killing of innocent people. Those who initiated these laws and the many of the silent majority who stood by and facilitated them by doing nothing to stop it are all probably in hell now. God is patient but His justice endures for ever. There is an endless prison ready for abortion-pushers. They may escape in this world, but definitely not in the next.

    12
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    Mute Were Jammin
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    Mar 7th 2014, 10:48 AM

    “God is patient but His justice endures for ever. There is an endless prison ready for abortion-pushers. ”

    Good man charlie, I see you’ve decided to overrule Jesus message of forgiveness to become Gods official spokesperson.

    By the way, just checked your twitter account. 13 tweets in the last 12 months, all abortion related.

    44
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    Mute Alan R
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    Mar 7th 2014, 1:38 PM

    “There is an endless prison ready for abortion-pushers. ”
    Ah yeah, that stupendously facile nonsense of a concept, where genocidal maniacs like Pol Pot get the same punishment as people who merely take the lord’s name in vain. The original marketeers of the primitive concept were not even enlightened comprehend that punishment should fit the crime.

    12
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    Mute Rkmr
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    Mar 7th 2014, 1:40 PM

    “There is an endless prison ready for abortion-pushers. ”
    If this place exists it will be full of clergy men, nuns and people like you who are small minded, bigoted and judgemental so enjoy it when you’re there :)

    22
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    Mute hdfsjkah
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    Mar 7th 2014, 2:42 PM

    Sorry ignornat commentators
    The board could refuse to accept the law which names the mater as one of the designated hospitals and work free from state funding as a private hospital

    journal.ie commentators only slightly less stupid than the staff

    4
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    Mute Alan R
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    Mar 7th 2014, 3:08 PM

    “The board could refuse to accept the law which names the mater as one of the designated hospitals and work free from state funding as a private hospital ”
    LOL, – ah yeah, maybe the church will fund the Mater, – yeah right.

    9
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    Mute hdfsjkah
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    Mar 7th 2014, 3:18 PM

    As a private hospital they could
    loling

    1
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    Mute Kelly Davis-Jordan
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    Mar 7th 2014, 3:33 PM

    Charles Byrne, isn’t it ‘sanctioning of murder’ to allow women to die? That’s all that the law covers, terminations for women who would die otherwise. Is it ok to allow women to die?

    9
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    Mute Kelly Davis-Jordan
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    Mar 7th 2014, 3:35 PM

    Private hospitals still have to obey the law of the land.

    8
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    Mute hdfsjkah
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    Mar 7th 2014, 3:38 PM

    private hospitals could refuse to be a designated center for abortions under the legislation
    and you know well Kelly double barrel that thats not what is at issue here

    3
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    Mute Kelly Davis-Jordan
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    Mar 7th 2014, 3:51 PM

    At least I’m using my real name and account and not a random collection of letters. What does my name have to do with anything? Do you have a problem with people who have a double barreled surname? Its none of your business what I call myself.

    12
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    Mute Kelly Davis-Jordan
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    Mar 7th 2014, 3:54 PM

    They haven’t refused though, they are complying with the law of the land, as they should.

    ‘Having regard to that duty the hospital will comply with the law as provided for in the act.’

    5
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    Mute jkcdub
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    Mar 7th 2014, 5:36 PM

    Ah, the invisible man theory again. …

    2
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    Mute Larry Bird
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    Mar 7th 2014, 7:28 AM

    yes a bunch of old men in dresses are ideally situated to comment on women’s health. what a con an people still believe this sh#t

    143
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    Mute John Turkey
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    Mar 7th 2014, 10:59 AM

    While I agree with your sentiments, it shouldn’t be necessary to ridicule transsexuals to make your point.

    25
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    Mute hdfsjkah
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    Mar 7th 2014, 2:45 PM

    The catholic church own the hospital

    5
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    Mute Kelly Davis-Jordan
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    Mar 7th 2014, 3:37 PM

    The Catholic church and the hospital still have to obey the law of the land.

    9
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    Mute hdfsjkah
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    Mar 7th 2014, 3:39 PM

    again they can refuse to be a designated hospital that preforms abortion under the legislation
    of note the mater is not a maternity hospital

    your point is wrong

    3
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    Mute Kelly Davis-Jordan
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    Mar 7th 2014, 4:01 PM

    But they haven’t refused, they have chosen to comply with the law as one of 25 designated hospitals to perform terminations where the woman’s life is in danger. How can anyone possibly have a problem with saving a woman’s life ? If the woman dies, the foetus will die anyway. Better to save one than none.

    11
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    Mute in_zane_burger
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    Mar 7th 2014, 7:11 AM

    Does he own the hospital or something

    124
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    Mute susanna smyth
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    Mar 7th 2014, 7:25 AM

    Women’s bodies are their own business. We’re in a new era not the dark priest ridden 50,s. The Catholic Church should be regarded as a quaint little institution that people can join if they want to

    174
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    Mute winding_down
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    Mar 7th 2014, 8:47 AM

    Nope, he does not own the hospital – he’s what they call in business speak, “an interested stakeholder” (after the horse has bolted). Even if he did own it; it wouldn’t matter. The law is the law, and must be obeyed.

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    Mute Ahippo
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    Mar 7th 2014, 9:04 AM

    Of course women’s bodies are their own. Does the same bodily integrity apply to the parasite growing within?

    9
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    Mute Emilio
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    Mar 7th 2014, 10:01 AM

    Ahippo if you value equally the life of the mother and the life of the foetus you have a mental illness.

    39
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    Mute Miss Filed
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    Mar 7th 2014, 10:19 AM

    This is what we all have to stand up against. The fact is that many of our major hospitals (funded completely by the state and part of our national health system) are in fact managed by Catholic orders in line with their principles and ethics. Here is the statement from the governance and management structures page of St. Vincent’s University Hospital website:

    “The affairs of the hospital are managed by a Board of Directors, which is responsible to the Shareholders of the company which are the Sisters of Charity. The Board, as part of its responsibility develops the hospital and its services in accordance with the principles and ethics of the Congregation of the Religious Sisters of Charity.”
    http://www.stvincents.ie/About_Us/Governance_&_Management_Structure.htm

    It’s just totally unacceptable in this day and age that so many of our national public (and publicly-funded) services are paid for by us but controlled by the church.

    Tell your TDs you want it to change.

    35
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    Mute hdfsjkah
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    Mar 7th 2014, 2:44 PM

    Well Miss Field if you knew your history the hospital was set up and is run by these religious charities
    Im sorry but I for one don’t think anyone has the right to take property from these great institutions because some lefty liberal wants to own them

    5
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    Mute cosmological
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    Mar 7th 2014, 7:03 AM

    Doran’s “conscience” is at peace with women’s years of misery and traumatic experience in this regard.

    119
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    Mute Tony Moran
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    Mar 7th 2014, 7:37 AM

    Why does he always look so paranoid, slightly confused and anxious ?

    58
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    Mute Ross Casey
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    Mar 7th 2014, 7:52 AM

    Because they are the images the Journal chooses to portray.

    38
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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Mar 7th 2014, 11:58 AM

    Wouldn’t you be if you were once the conscience of society but are now relegated to a position where you are fighting against the momentum of society as a whole? It must be confusing when there is a 180 degree turn in public perception. People now think for themselves rather than blindly follow your narrow minded directions of conscience. They will get used to it eventually

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Mar 7th 2014, 2:56 PM

    Alphabetti, your comments show that you are more interested or maybe capable of personal attack on another poster than any form of constructive discussion. Evident last night when I repeatedly asked you a question but you avoided answering it, then just left. Please show some respect and instead of insulting me, offer credible points. Thanks

    6
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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Mar 7th 2014, 4:01 PM

    It appears the journal powers that be thought your comment was a personal attack too.

    6
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    Mute Hairy lemon
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    Mar 7th 2014, 8:29 AM

    It’s clear Martin, the church and the priest really and truly believe their position on abortion. Its deeply held and at the core of their beliefs.

    It’s appropriate to listen to what groups in society have to say but to weigh up the greater good. This is how secularism should work – weighing up multiple points of view regardless of (but not excluding) religious conviction.

    In this case others are put at danger due to those beliefs so the greater good wins out. Martin can talk about it all day long – but in the end the elected leaders of our country have defined a law and it must be abided by regardless of religious conviction.

    57
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    Mute Miss Filed
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    Mar 7th 2014, 10:22 AM

    I agree, but we need more public awareness that our public services like this are, although paid for by us, still LEGALLY run by religious orders and this needs to be changed – that is why he feels free to intervene, because of that unacceptable fact (the same with our education system, youth services and a host of other services) – eg in the case of St. Vincent’s it says on their website:

    “The affairs of the hospital are managed by a Board of Directors, which is responsible to the Shareholders of the company which are the Sisters of Charity. The Board, as part of its responsibility develops the hospital and its services in accordance with the principles and ethics of the Congregation of the Religious Sisters of Charity.”
    http://www.stvincents.ie/About_Us/Governance_&_Management_Structure.htm

    21
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    Mute hdfsjkah
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    Mar 7th 2014, 2:46 PM

    they run the institution because they set up and own the institution

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Mar 7th 2014, 4:03 PM

    ‘they run the institution because they set up and own the institution’

    Yes, an institution paid for by the state.

    9
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    Mute Frank Dowling
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    Mar 7th 2014, 8:13 AM

    Hey Martin.. feck off.. this doesnt concern you..

    53
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    Mute Librocop
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    Mar 7th 2014, 8:38 AM

    The bill has arguably made it more difficult to have an abortion now than what it was like a year ago. I don’t know why the church is arguing about this.

    33
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    Mute Emilio
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    Mar 7th 2014, 8:23 AM

    I sense he is guilty of gluttony.

    29
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    Mute johngahan
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    Mar 7th 2014, 10:08 AM

    As a fervent believer myself in the Monstrous Pulsating Brain Buried Deep on the Moon religion I better call the Mater myself and share my views on anaesthetics being the work of the devil, denying yourself natural pain is an affront to my beliefs.

    23
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    Mute Paddy Scully
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    Mar 7th 2014, 9:00 AM

    So many Sisters have lost their vocation around the world, one hopes that + Martin can help these sisters remain faithful. It is impossible for catholics who are faithful, to accept the threat of suicide as grounds for killing the baby.
    The Pope mentioned this week that there are now more Christians been martyred around the world, than in the early centuries of the church. The sisters have to decide, wherein lies their wealth, and act accordingly.

    17
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    Mute Hairy lemon
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    Mar 7th 2014, 9:32 AM

    @Paddy
    That is why we don’t allow the church run our country. It’s fine to have religious belief – many applaud that. But it is when those with religious belief wish to impose the implications of those beliefs on others that we must object.

    Let’s remember that just because there is a law facilitating the right to life of the mother now doesn’t mean the faithful are obliged to have an abortion. But it allows to if they so choose. I think this is entirely reasonable. The faithful get to keep their faith and their beliefs and act as they wish, others get to do the same.

    48
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    Mute James Patrick Smith
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    Mar 7th 2014, 9:58 AM

    Paddy regardless of anyones religious beliefs the law is the law.Nobody gets to pick and choose what laws they should follow and what laws they ignore due to indoctrinated beliefs.

    Just look at this story http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-26266487

    Blind deluded religious faith of irrational parents with blood on their hands.
    The Church should stick to teaching dodgy hypocritical mythology not interfering with the laws of the land.

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    Mute Paddy Scully
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    Mar 7th 2014, 10:01 AM

    @ Hairy lemon
    The church has no interest in running this country. You’re mixing up the huge input the church gifted this country in education and medicine, with a desire to rule.
    The church never imposes, it proposes. In this situation it is the secular state which is imposing it amorality on the sisters. Imposition is in this instance been pointed at the sisters. The unfortunate outcome of the secularist saber rattling, is that many catholics will be forced to abandon their long service to the population, in medicine; but also in education, hospitality, and in many other areas of society.
    It looks like we are entering an era when the monks and sisters will have to withdraw again into their monasteries, to pray for the conversation of a re-paganised society.

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    Mute Miss Filed
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    Mar 7th 2014, 10:13 AM

    Grand Paddy. I don’t eat meat on ethical grounds, but if I was on the Board of a major public hospital, I would not seek to make the whole hospital’s catering vegetarian.

    The fact is that far too many of our national public health services, for example major hospitals like The Mater and St. Vincent’s University Hospital, while de facto part of our public health system and entirely funded by the state via the HSE, have orders of the Catholic Church running them in line with their principles and ethos. This is totally unacceptable in a society where practising Catholics are now a significant minority.

    Here is the situation with St. Vincent’s University Hospital:
    “The affairs of the hospital are managed by a Board of Directors, which is responsible to the Shareholders of the company which are the Sisters of Charity. The Board, as part of its responsibility develops the hospital and its services in accordance with the principles and ethics of the Congregation of the Religious Sisters of Charity.”
    http://www.stvincents.ie/About_Us/Governance_&_Management_Structure.htm

    I’m not singling out St. Vincent’s – they are a great hospital in may ways! It is just that their website actually clearly states the situation!

    22
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    Mute Paddy Scully
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    Mar 7th 2014, 10:19 AM

    @ James Patrick Smith
    Patrick, we are obliged not to follow an unjust law, and to he’ll with the consequences.
    If the country enacted a law today that all teenagers are obnoxious and shall to be killed on sight, would you comply? Our own moral judgement must surely come into play.
    You may consider respect for human life, purely to be an “indoctrinated” belief, but I know many good atheists who would disagree with you.
    You then go off in your anti faith rant, enjoy yourself. But we should ask ourselves, if you are in hospital, would we prefer someone filled with bile looking after us, or a sister motivated to serve and protect life?

    5
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    Mute Tricia Golden
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    Mar 7th 2014, 10:28 AM

    “or a sister motivated to serve and protect life” – And would that be the life of the woman you’re referring to there Paddy? Because if I was ina hospital with a pregnancy that was having a serious detrimental effect on my health I would much prefer a health professional who provides me with EVERY option and not just those that their “conscience” allows them!

    31
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    Mute Miss Filed
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    Mar 7th 2014, 10:32 AM

    Paddy, you seem to have no problem with the assumption that YOUR ethics should rule over all of us. Equating this bill that may save a mother’s life to murdering teenagers is absolutely ludicrous, as I am sure you know.

    If the Catholic Church wishes to set up its own churches and run them by its own principles, then let them do that… oh wait, they already do!!! Anybody is perfectly at liberty in their choice of work to not take a job that conflict with their morals – for example I would likely not seek a job in a butcher since it would conflict with my moral beliefs – if I chose to work in a hospital in a job where I was serving meals, I would have to serve meat meals to people – no problem – do it or don’t take the job!

    We do not have abortion in this country – we have a new bill that may protect the life of a tiny group of mothers in very extreme circumstances. If people cannot work within the law that the majority of people support, then they will just have to leave their job.

    When I am in hospital, I would not want somebody filled with bile looking after me. or would I want somebody whose main priority is their own personal belief system at the expense of doing a good job and being a compassionate person to me, and following the law of the land.

    What on earth makes you feel that (considering we all have conflicting and different beliefs in this country) the whole of society should bend to your beliefs?

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    Mute Miss Filed
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    Mar 7th 2014, 10:33 AM

    Sorry, that should have read if the church wants to set up its own hospitals…

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    Mute Florence Nightingale
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    Mar 7th 2014, 10:51 AM

    @Paddy

    “It looks like we are entering an era when the monks and sisters will have to withdraw again into their monasteries, to pray for the conversation of a re-paganised society.”

    “The unfortunate outcome of the secularist saber rattling, is that many catholics will be forced to abandon their long service to the population, in medicine; but also in education, hospitality, and in many other areas of society.”

    Verging on hyperbole there, Paddy.

    No religion or belief system should be allowed to force their “morals” upon someone who does not share the beliefs. Catholics who are involved in providing care in hospitals and other institutions are bound by the law, whether they like it or not. They are not above it.

    “The church never imposes, it proposes.”

    I disagree. It’s insidious, like a virus. It imposes itself upon the minds of people the moment they are born and attempts to keep a hold over them their entire lives. How else can the Catholic church survive if it does not have followers to keep funding it?

    It attempts to influence state business. This influence is waning but until recently, the Catholic church once had its fingers in all the state pies.

    Catholics in Ireland are “suffering” from an imaginary persecution complex. All that’s happening is that they no longer hold the monopoly over this country. All that is happening is that religious belief being an intrinsic part of this culture is being pushed to the margins where it belongs. It no longer gets to push its agenda and it no longer has the power to tell people how to live their lives.

    If a Catholic medical worker feels they can deny medical care to a person based on their own personal beliefs, then perhaps they should think about a change in profession.

    After all, how would you feel if a Jehovah’s Witness doctor refused you a blood transfusion based on their own beliefs? I imagine you’d be outraged. The same applies to Catholic medical staff working with pregnant women. The law is the law. End of.

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    Mute Alan R
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    Mar 7th 2014, 11:08 AM

    “to pray for the conversation of a re-paganised society.”
    Oh dear, – thankfully your perspective is one that is on the wane, the quicker it becomes irrelevent the better.

    17
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    Mute James Patrick Smith
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    Mar 7th 2014, 11:10 AM

    @Paddy
    Point.1 No such law exists and to suggest such a ridiculous scenario doesn’t do you any favours.

    Point.2
    Even if your ridiculous scenario was law do you think only religious believers would oppose it? You don’t need religion for morality!
    http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22029401.100 morality predates religion.

    Point.3
    If the current rate of people in france who believe in Islam continues to grow it’s projected within 25 years it will be the majority religion of the country.Now if the laws of France hypothetically changed to sharia law.Would that make the new laws religiously moral? Legal? Democratic? In line with human rights?
    It’s for such reasons religion should be separate from state.

    Point.4
    I’d rather be treated by an educted Doctor or Nurse who applied logic sense and reason than a pious superstitious Nun.Just look at the millions of donations Mother Theresa got for her Missionaries and yet the standard of care was disgracefully negligence and subhuman.She had the resources but elected due to her “Faith” not to use them but during her own illnesses flew to the best hospitals in the US for treatment.Plenty of doctors from doctors without borders who visited her hospitals were shocked and appalled.
    Her indoctrinated beliefs allowed her to think people suffering terminal illnesses got a gift from God.Now do you think any medical doctor or nurse would subscribe to that mantra in their treatment?

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    Mute Alan R
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    Mar 7th 2014, 11:11 AM

    “After all, how would you feel if a Jehovah’s Witness doctor refused you a blood transfusion based on their own beliefs? I imagine you’d be outraged. The same applies to Catholic medical staff working with pregnant women. The law is the law. End of.”
    Excellent analogy Florence.

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    Mute Paddy Scully
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    Mar 7th 2014, 11:26 AM

    @ Miss Filed
    Hospitals are in the business of life or death. The fundamental right, underpinning all other rights, is the right to life. Remove this, and all rights are undermined.
    Whether you eat meat or not, is probably not going to kill you.
    I’m not going to rerun the debate again, but I believe in preserving the life of the mother; but I do not accept the threat of suicide as valid grounds for killing the child. If society believes otherwise, then I, and my ilk, have to withdraw from that branch of medicine. That is society deciding it’s faith, and it has the freedom to do so; but I can’t be expected to hold the surgical knife.

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    Mute Tricia Golden
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    Mar 7th 2014, 11:37 AM

    “then I, and my ilk, have to withdraw from that branch of medicine”

    Finally something you and I can agree on.

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Mar 7th 2014, 12:05 PM

    Hi Paddy, just to let you know, the word you are looking for is ‘being’ not ‘been’.

    ‘more Christians been martyred around the world’

    Just something you consistently misuse and I wouldn’t want you to lose credibility through misuse of the English language.

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    Mute John Everyman
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    Mar 7th 2014, 12:09 PM

    Jaysus Paddy lad is back. Not seen him for months.

    Thought he had been sacred away by all us liberal, secular fornicators who value women’s reproductive rights and marriage equality.

    As is the case with all hypocritical Catholics in this country he only crawls from his lair to voice his outdated opinions on social topics which offend his medieval sense of morality.

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    Mute Paddy Scully
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    Mar 7th 2014, 1:12 PM

    As a general observation, many of you seem to believe this issue is about catholics imposing their values on society. This article is about the exact opposite; it is about society imposing its views on practicing catholics. It is saying to the sisters, you do abortion, or we will prosecute you. Or force you from your vocation of service!
    Many of you are so engaged in your usual anti faith rhetoric, that you overlooked who is forcing whom to do what.
    If society wishes to be cared for by those willing to accept death without just cause, rather than those who only accept death as the last stand; then society as ever will get what it deserves.
    As for my English, it has always “being” my weakest subject.

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    Mute John Everyman
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    Mar 7th 2014, 1:24 PM

    It’s quite simple Paddy lad:

    If you work in a hospital, do your job. If you won’t, quit and make room for someone who will. I know a lot of soon to graduate nurses and midwives would be happy to fill in.

    If you can’t or won’t perform or assist with a legal and required medical procedure in our country’s healthcare service, you have no business working in an Irish hospital.

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Mar 7th 2014, 1:32 PM

    Paddy, as a man who argues regularly from a religious perspective, knowing the churches stance on many topics, is the church arguing against abortion and against same sex marriage purely for their parishioners or are they trying to influence wider society with their views?

    Society does impose it’s views on practising Catholics and likewise Catholics have for centuries imposed their views on society. Only recently are Catholics realising they can no longer influence society through law.

    Society influences Catholics by creating laws for it’s citizens that all citizens regardless of their faith must abide by. Do you suggest that certain faiths should be exempt from laws they disagree with?

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    Mute Alan R
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    Mar 7th 2014, 1:42 PM

    That’s just how society works Paddy, – we benefit from its structure and protection, but in turn we have laws imposed on us based on the overall norms of the group as a whole.

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    Mute Paddy Scully
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    Mar 7th 2014, 2:18 PM

    @ Ailbhe O’Nolan
    We seem forever destined to disagree Ailbhe. I very rarely argue from the specific catholic point of view. In the marriage redefinition discussion, I will only discuss it from a societal perspective.
    I take a catholic stand here as the discussion is about an archbishop advising religious sisters. I’m hoping a catholic outcome ensues for the sisters, even if that involves a significant sacrifice on their parts.
    The views catholics hold in general are for their own good. They themselves may not act against these principles, and they inform society where they can, but agree that the law of the land is decided by society as a whole. On occasions, the church will act against national authority, such as when it hid Jews during WW2, because it was morally obliged to do so.
    In the case of this unjust law toward the unborn life, a catholic should not implement it directly, but society has many hands willing to do it. The church is obliged to cry foul, after that the individual chooses their own path, through this life, and the life to come. As you know many in the “civilized” world today, choose the destructive path.
    Catholics still influence society, but much of society chooses to ignore them, such is freedom.

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    Mute Paddy Scully
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    Mar 7th 2014, 2:20 PM

    @ Ailbhe O’Nolan
    I believe we are all subject to the law, but as in my extreme example earlier, if the law directs me to kill someone unjustly, I’d better be willing to go to prison. The law of the land is not justification for murder in and of itself.
    The question therefore is, is there religious freedom still in this country, or can the law of the land force us to act amorally and against our consciences. I hope not.

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Mar 7th 2014, 2:29 PM

    Paddy you have failed to answer any of my questions.

    Instead you have discussed situations that do not exist. The law of the land does not force anybody to murder another person or go to prison. Nor does it force anybody to carry out abortion or go to prison. I’m discussing reality, not hypothetical situations designed to mislead.

    The church is free to hold it’s own views and impose moral judgement on it’s own willing members, but not on those who do not share the same faith.

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    Mute hdfsjkah
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    Mar 7th 2014, 2:49 PM

    He clearly did answer your question

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    Mute hdfsjkah
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    Mar 7th 2014, 2:51 PM

    John everyman
    still believe that a living human fetus is not a human nor a live
    I rest my case
    we don’t need your opinion

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Mar 7th 2014, 2:58 PM

    You mean like you did last night? You clearly don’t understand how to answer a direct question with a direct answer. It’s ok, don’t sweat it

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    Mute Paddy Scully
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    Mar 7th 2014, 2:59 PM

    @ Ailbhe O’Nolan
    The law of the land is dictating to the sisters who own and run this institution, that they must set their Catholicism aside and carry out abortions.
    Their Archbishop is in consultation with the Sisters. I’m assuming his consultation is determining if what Mr O’Riley is imposing on them is in conflict with the catholic ethos on which the running of this institution is based. If it is, then the sisters must decide if they can remain catholic, and run this institution. To those of us who are pro life, O’Riley is removing catholics from practicing, managing, or general involvement in obstetrics or psychiatry. Remember, this law is founded on ideology, not the advice of professionals who hold that abortion is no cure for a mother who has suicidal thoughts.

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    Mute John Everyman
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    Mar 7th 2014, 3:02 PM

    Never have I argued that a fetus is not alive or not human.

    What I have stated, and what I state again is that I do not believe an unthinking, unfeeling collection of cells, regardless of it’s DNA makeup, is as valuable as the conscious, breathing woman carrying it.

    If you rest your case after two lines of misrepresentation it’s pretty obvious why you never win debates.

    Oh and by the way, whether or not you “need” my opinion is hardly valid; so I’m a bit confused as to why you said that. Unless of course there’s a nagging doubt at the back of your head that maybe your beliefs aren’t as bulletproof as you seem to think they are.

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Mar 7th 2014, 3:10 PM

    Now you resort to name calling. Your lack of maturity in a debate is astounding. I asked you a direct question, do you support the discrimination you outlined that marriage imposes. You stated that marriage imposes discrimination. That is not an answer. Do YOU SUPPORT it would be adequately answered with ‘yes I do’, ‘ no I don’t’ or an outline of the aspects you do or do not support. Simple really.

    Now, sorry Paddy, digressing. I personally think an individual should have the right to abstain from performing an abortion if they do not support it. If it is true that these people are forced to remove themselves from posts because of the legislation, that is not right. I think there should be an option for the employees involved to abstain and have another individual perform the procedure, or if time allows have the patient moved to another hospital. I understand the practical difficulties, but it would allow for individuals to retain their own moral judgement and carry out their jobs as usual.

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    Mute Florence Nightingale
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    Mar 7th 2014, 3:12 PM

    @Paddy

    “The law of the land is dictating to the sisters who own and run this institution…”

    Which is funded by state money, ie taxpayers’ money. And not all taxpayers are Catholic.

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Mar 7th 2014, 3:13 PM

    ‘We don’t need your opinion’

    On who’s behalf are you speaking? Do you think John has less of a right to an opinion than you do? Very strange and very immature!

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    Mute Florence Nightingale
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    Mar 7th 2014, 3:17 PM

    @adsjksdg

    “I rest my case. We don’t need your opinion”

    Thanks for clearing that up.

    Meanwhile in the real world where there are many opinions and yours is merely one of them…

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    Mute hdfsjkah
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    Mar 7th 2014, 3:19 PM

    But mine would appear to be the only one based on facts

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Mar 7th 2014, 3:21 PM

    Oh god it gets better! That’s hilarious. If you refuse to acknowledge some information and fixate on other information, then form an opinion, it does not make it an opinion based on facts. You really hold yourself in high esteem! Thanks for the laugh

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    Mute hdfsjkah
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    Mar 7th 2014, 3:21 PM

    ow you resort to name calling. Your lack of maturity in a debate is astounding. I asked you a direct question, do you support the discrimination you outlined that marriage imposes. You stated that marriage imposes discrimination. That is not an answer. Do YOU SUPPORT it would be adequately answered with ‘yes I do’, ‘ no I don’t’ or an outline of the aspects you do or do not support. Simple really.

    Note I said I do not support discrimination
    as a result I am against the state institution of marriage which is unfair and discriminatory
    If only you could read

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    Mute Alan R
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    Mar 7th 2014, 3:22 PM

    “Remember, this law is founded on ideology, not the advice of professionals who hold that abortion is no cure for a mother who has suicidal thoughts.”

    No, you are totally wrong there. The law is founded on the democratic will of the Irish people via the Supreme Court decision on X, which was explicitly ratified by the Irish people by rejecting the 12th amendment and 25th amendments which both sought to tighten the laws around excluding suicide as grounds.

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    Mute hdfsjkah
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    Mar 7th 2014, 3:24 PM

    Alan R but the law is ethically wrong
    it allows the killing of a fetus because the mother is suicidal this is not a treatment for suicide

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Mar 7th 2014, 3:26 PM

    hdfsjkah, stating that marriage is discriminatory does not indicate your view. For example, if I stated a tomato is a fruit, do you like fruit, you stating it is a fruit does not give an indication of your personal view.

    Now you have indicated your view, finally. Thank you for answering my question. So you do not support discrimination. Good to know

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    Mute hdfsjkah
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    Mar 7th 2014, 3:27 PM

    Yes as I explicitly said yesterday thanks

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    Mute John Everyman
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    Mar 7th 2014, 3:31 PM

    “this is not a treatment for suicide”

    No one has ever claimed that an abortion is “treatment for suicide”, despite what the anti-choice mob would have us believe.

    The issue is that forcing a woman to carry an unwanted pregnancy could very well be the CAUSE of suicide. This is what the Supreme Court determined.

    Now if you think this judgment was wrong and should be ignored, please inform us which qualifications you posses which allows your opinion on legal matters to carry more weight than that of a Supreme Court judge.

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    Mar 7th 2014, 3:36 PM

    unwanted pregnancy could very well be the CAUSE of suicide
    then you are saying that it is a treatment for suicide
    try not to contradict yourself in the same paragraph

    I am medical not legal
    the law is pretty bad at medicine

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    Mute Paddy Scully
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    Mar 7th 2014, 3:40 PM

    @ Ailbhe O’Nolan
    Ailbhe I am unable to give a direct answer to your question on discrimination, because I do not accept the supposition on which your question is based, that there is discrimination.
    As for your view on the right to not take part in an abortion, I appreciate your fairness.
    P.S., did I call you a name? Sorry, usually not my style.

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Mar 7th 2014, 3:41 PM

    If you want to nit pick then here are your responses yesterday, none of which indicate whether or not you support discrimination:

    ‘I believe that marriage is in itself a discriminatory institution
    a social institution that takes from the unlucky and gives to the privileged via taxation etc’ Not a direct response, you may support taking from the unlucky and giving to the lucky.

    ‘Marriage excludes all the mentioned above’ Again you may support such exclusion, my question was do you support exclusion, not ‘does it exclude’ which we had already established.

    Lessons in debating may be necessary for you.

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Mar 7th 2014, 3:44 PM

    Sorry Paddy, no that comment was directed at hdfsjkah. The second paragraph was in relation to our discussion. Apologies for the confusion.

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    Mute John Everyman
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    Mar 7th 2014, 3:45 PM

    “unwanted pregnancy could very well be the CAUSE of suicide
    then you are saying that it is a treatment for suicide
    try not to contradict yourself in the same paragraph”

    There is nothing contradictory about what I said. If a woman feels suicidal BEFORE she has an unwanted pregnancy, abortion will not help with those suicidal feelings.

    However if a woman feels suicidal BECAUSE of an unwanted pregnancy, we must do all in our power to remove the causal factors.

    Oh and by the way, no one here believes you work in healthcare. Impossible to prove I’ll admit, but let’s just say you have failed in your attempts to convince us.

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    Mute Florence Nightingale
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    Mar 7th 2014, 4:09 PM

    @hskhgalirfg

    And what “facts” would those be? Yours?

    Opinions are not facts.

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    Mute Miss Filed
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    Mar 7th 2014, 10:01 AM

    This is the problem we have to face with our society: so many of our public services are controlled by the Catholic Church, but paid for with state money.

    This hospital is one example. St. Vincent’s University Hospital, one of our major national public university hospitals, funded by we the people via the HSE, is run in line with the ethos of the Sisters of Charity – is that not utterly insane?

    “The affairs of the hospital are managed by a Board of Directors, which is responsible to the Shareholders of the company which are the Sisters of Charity. The Board, as part of its responsibility develops the hospital and its services in accordance with the principles and ethics of the Congregation of the Religious Sisters of Charity.”
    http://www.stvincents.ie/About_Us/Governance_&_Management_Structure.htm

    Many of our national public youth services, mental health services, and of course our public education system, are also run and controlled by the RCC in line with their ethos, but they are public services funded by the state. You couldn’t make it up.

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    Mute Mark Cunningham
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    Mar 7th 2014, 12:56 PM

    I don’t understand why the church discussing anything other than religion is news. They shouldn’t have any influence on anything and their discussions shouldn’t be publicised. They are rotten to the core. It is similar to a football club engaging in these types of debates. Except football clubs don’t cover up pedophiles.

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Mar 7th 2014, 1:30 PM

    Paddy, as a man who argues regularly from a religious perspective, knowing the churches stance on many topics, is the church arguing against abortion and against same sex marriage purely for their parishioners or are they trying to influence wider society with their views?

    Society does impose it’s views on practising Catholics and likewise Catholics have for centuries imposed their views on society. Only recently are Catholics realising they can no longer influence society through law.

    Society influences Catholics by creating laws for it’s citizens that all citizens regardless of their faith must abide by. Do you suggest that certain faiths should be exempt from laws they disagree with?

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Mar 7th 2014, 1:34 PM

    Apologies, this was supposed to be posted as a reply in a below thread! Reposted

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    Mute Michael Reilly
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    Mar 7th 2014, 3:07 PM

    On a lighter note – whats the country coming to – nuns discussing abortions. Are there more than that nun in Italy who had an “immaculate conception” and was banished from her convent.

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    Mar 7th 2014, 3:36 PM

    unwanted pregnancy could very well be the CAUSE of suicide
    then you are saying that it is a treatment for suicide
    try not to contradict yourself in the same paragraph

    I am medical not legal
    the law is pretty bad a medicine

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    Mar 7th 2014, 3:21 PM

    ow you resort to name calling. Your lack of maturity in a debate is astounding. I asked you a direct question, do you support the discrimination you outlined that marriage imposes. You stated that marriage imposes discrimination. That is not an answer. Do YOU SUPPORT it would be adequately answered with ‘yes I do’, ‘ no I don’t’ or an outline of the aspects you do or do not support. Simple really.

    Note I said I do not support discrimination
    as a result I am against the state institution of marriage which is unfair and discriminatory
    If only you could read

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