Teach it to people who choose it instead of holding onto this notion of every one should have to endure and waste so many hours learning a language that is basically dead. I studied French for the leaving and with it I was able to move to France for a summer, work in a pub and immerse myself in a different culture. What could I do with my irish? Nothing! Having a foreign language opens up great opportunities all over the eu and beyond but instead we waste so many hours and resources cramming pre learned essays down disillusioned student’s throats. It is so backwards.

So your saying our unique language is a waste of time? You’d be surprised the amount of foreigners and Americans who are intrigued and love the language, it should be embraced. The Welsh are proud of theirs

That was for buster

Maybe they should introduce a new optional leaving/junior cert subject called Irish Culture and Heritage. You could learn about the poems and stories and traditions and the history of Ireland and Irish folklore.
Then they could concentrate Irish class on teaching people to speak the Irish language.

Buster VL you are right!

People seem to only look at the commercial benefit of a language. The passing on of Irish is the maintenance of a cultural heritage – we are the keepers of the language, which is as culturally important as any piece of ancient architecture. Imagine if someone said there’s no (monitary or other) point to Newgrange and decided to level it! That said we really do need to look at the process of passing on this ancient language!

Great idea Jack.

Of course Kenny is oblivious to the Gaeltacht crisis – he lives in his own magical fantasyland where Ireland has now returned to prosperity, his party NEVER raised taxes in ANY way, where men holding two pints frequently engage him in conversation about Irish Water only to be eloquently put in their place by His Excellency, and mystery callers ring his office to profess their amazement and delight at all the extra cash sitting in their wallets thanks to his and Noonans budgetary genius.

Don’t bother asking him about hospital trollies, evictions, homeless families or child poverty – these things don’t exist in Endaland.

It should definitely be optional after Junior Cert. There are enough people enthusiastic about it to keep schools going but stop forcing it on students who feel they don’t need it or need the time and effort for the core subjects that are important to them.

You have highlighted the problem very well. The problem is the lack of future opportunity to speak Irish in a natural everyday setting. Anyone who learns a foreign language looks to use that language with a native speaker. We all have the latent capacity to speak and use Irish but we do not have a way of knowing that the other person will respond in Irish. The Irish language is learnt by a minority for cultural reasons only. The majority regard it as a chore. Language is spoken out of need to speak it, not so much out of an outside imposed obligation to learn it. The imposition of the Caighdán style Gramadach Oifigiúil was destructive in that it turned Gaeltacht native speakers into second class Irish speakers. I never forgot the discomfort of native Irish speakers in teacher training college in the 1970s being told that their written Irish was not ceart de réir an Chaighdán. Each canúint had its own intrinsic way of writing Irish and this was being present by authority as being not good enough. Standardisation while well meant actually marginalised the Irish language even further in the Gaeltacht areas.

A nation that doesn’t speak its language lost its soul. The Dutch, Norwegian etc. speak their language plus English, German or French.

Yes it is a waste of time for those forced to speak it that don’t want to. So what if Americans like it, what has that got to do with anything?

Well Paul we like to market ourselves as a country of ancient traditions with a history of resistance, if we ditch the ancient Irish language for the sake of convenience it’s going to be quite difficult to market ourselves in quite the same manner, we’ll have lost an ancient linguistic tradition and showed no resistance to the erosion of a large part of cultural heritage.

People like to go and experience a different culture when they travel abroad, we’re becoming more and more Anglo-American and less Celtic it’s going to be difficult to entice American and British tourists here if they feel Ireland offers nothing different from their own countries, and they aren’t going to come here for the weather now are they. Likewise people from other countries aren’t going to be interested in travelling to a mini England/USA.

Donal , spot on , that is the main problem with this language in schools , people have been saying it for years but nobody is bothered to listen .

I’ve lived in Wales/Cymru on Anglesea/Ynys Mon. The older folks speak Welsh most of the time but the younger ones just do not use it. They use the language and phraseology of English to communicate. But unlike in Ireland, it is not compulsory in other schools in Britain. So it sits and burbles away in the backwaters like a little stream which is grand. Lovely language. It is wrong to use Welsh as an example to promote Irish Supernova. It too is gradually expiring.

So force it down every child in the nations throat to please tourists!!! We should start breeding leprechauns as well. Nobody is stopping people who want to learn it. If its as popular as some make it out to be it will thrive of its own accord

We are not the Welsh

Paul I never said force it down children’s throats, I was mainly referring to your point “So what if Americans like it, what has that got to do with anything” the perception other countries have of us is very important to our tourist industry and the brand of this country in general, so yes Americans and foreigners in general liking our language and culture is quite important and if we totally disregard that language and culture it will reflect very badly on us as a country. Hence I think its preservation is important but with different methods.

There should be more a focus on enabling the Gaeltacht communities to speak Irish as a focus for the language, but how can they when the government has only provided services to them in English and has done so for decades and also English speakers moving into the area are putting more and more pressure on them to assimilate. I also think the Government should cut spending on the Irish education system in school and more on subsidising Irish classes for adults who actually want them.

Also that cheap leprechaun remark is just typical of the condescending attitude a lot of Irish people have for their own culture.

I am shocked at some people’s comments on this thread.
The Irish language is OUR culture, PRIDE and our HISTORY.
just because you can’t get a job in southern France with it or a tech job in Germany when you leave school does not mean we should not be concerned its dwindling.
My daughter attends a Gaelscoil and I’m telling you now her ability with other languages is amazing. She’s taught Irish based sports and musical instruments and understands the language is a part of us as Irish people. But I do agree it should be optional in secondary school.
Shame on all you people who call yourselves Irish who’ve just slammed your national language.

Sam, I am as Irish as you, and I disagree. Are you saying I must be forced to accept a language I don’t want in the interests of YOUR concept of “Irishness “. I want someone to come out and admit it – we are seriously entertaining ‘degrees ‘ of Irishness.

That bollocks was directed to Supernova, not my august self – thanks Journal

Rashers, I didn’t say anything about forcing it on people. My beef is mainly with the attitudes of some people towards it.
We have a national language I just don’t see why it should be left to rot because people don’t see any use for it after school.

You hit the nail on the head. Making Irish compulsory in school and giving it a special emphasis in society HAS NOT WORKED. Neither has the way it is taught. And the elitism of Irish speakers claiming they are more Irish then those who don’t speak Irish is nonsense and has added to the demise of the language. A new appoach is needed – I would like to see people take an interest in their language, history and culture _ but you won’t achieve it by ramming it down peoples’ throats or by perpetuating the myth that we speak two languages.

My only issue is it being compulsory. Fair play and good luck to those who speak it and they should have option to learn it in school but to force it on people is terrible. If its lived and people want it then it will survive and thrive surely? I think a lot of people come out with things like people live it etc but deep down they know it’s not that many

Loved not lived

let’s be honest here , how many of you would not allow your kids to learn the language if it wasn’t compulsory ? most of you would opt out because of your feelings and your views of the language and that’s where it would be lost forever . children still need to be taught it and then later on in secondary school maybe give them the option to opt out then.

You should get a medal Sam, you’re a true Irish person, well done.

You can be concerned all you like, the fact is the majority of the people simply aren’t interested in it, and there’s nothing you can do about it.

Nigel , adults may not be interested in it but what about children ? should they have a chance to learn it and see if they like it ?

Well don’t you think an optional after school Irish class would benefit them more?

no because again the Parents wouldn’t bother to bring them and then the kids lose out . it should be a child’s decision not the Parents . some kids take to Irish and love learning it .

Nigel I don’t need nor want a medal I was stating my opinion but cheers for thinking I’m owed one for being Irish.

@Suzie,. Apologies, but that makes no sense at all. The parents might choose not to bring them and the child should ignore that and make their own choice. Do you advocate a choice for children as to whether to do math, or learn geography or history? It should be their decision, after all.

@ supernova – it is a waste of time for those with no interest in it. For everyone else I’m sure it’s great. But forcing it on people is counter- productive : and the state of the language proves it. The reason Irish music and dance flourish is….because it’s elective. ….but as for making it compulsory to access 3rd Level education : nothing short of discrimination that is. ..

@Sam. What condescending rubbish – and clearly indicative of exactly why Irish is loathed as much as loved. This attitude that your appreciation of it somehow makes you better than me is reason alone for Irish to be consigned to the bin. The fact that the concept of Irish as – taught is a complete fabrication from the heads of few enthusiastic founding members of this State escapes you. English was the language then, as now. Heck the GAA is barely a century old – English has been on this Island for 800+ years.

John, i wasn’t being condescending.
You have your opinion on it and I have mine.
I shall continue to hope the Irish language does not diminish (in a non condescending way of course).

@Sam. I hope it flourishes too. But forced rote -learning something that can’t be used daily is dooming it to ultimate failure. Encouraging it electively would be infinitely more successful. For now my German, French and maybe some old Latin is I find something to cherish.

If I had a kid in secondary he or she would have a mind of their own and pick whatever subjects they wanted. I would tell them my view that German/French/Spanish would be of much more use to them but they would pick whatever they wanted. In primary an hour or 2 a week is done kids might like it if thought in a fun way. When I was in primary half the morning every day was taken up with it. Barbaric

I would suggest you take your daughter out of gaelscoil and put her into a multi-denominational school. The reason why is communication…. she will be a better communicator, understand the world better and not be part of a myopic pretentious Irish clique.

Sean that makes no sense to me at all.
I do not want my daughter in a class room, where sad to say, the Irish kids would be the minority.
There’s kids down my way who have no English going into primary school so the Irish kids are suffering because basic English has to be taught to some kids before Irish is even introduced!
Because the kids have no irish(most kids) when they begin gaelscoil, their ability with other languages flourishes. My daughter has a great concept of Spanish, French and German.
I really do not see any down side to gaelscoils unless a child really can’t hack it.
My worst nightmare would be for my daughter to end up in a school like educate together, sorry but that’s just my view.

Well everyone does indeed have a different experience in life and your daughter and you seem to have a positive experience with the Irish language.
For myself it has been mostly negative. My reasoning is this, as an Irishman who has lived 33 of his 38 years in Ireland I have never once used the Irish language in a meaningful conversation.

The way Irish was shoved down my throat and my unsuccessfulness at mastering the language resulted in a mental block from learning other languages.
In the previous year I have spent significant amounts of time learning dutch, danish and spanish and really enjoy learning them and using them in practical way.

Nothing is going to work in my opinion. This issue will simply continue limping on, sucking in our money and the time and joy of the nations children in the name of heritage and culture. God forbid we take a bold decision and just move on.

It really annoys me when individuals take an issue that is clearly more complicated than ‘it’s broken, f***k it in the bin’ and assume that their opinion is automatically the correct one. Like, if you don’t want it, it’s automatically useless and a waste of money. I’m currently healthy- should I therefore object to money being spent on healthcare? I don’t drive- why do we need so many roads?

What is it going to take in this country for people to stop effing whinging and complaining and start trying to solve problems?

‘Bold’, ill-considered decisions aren’t worth the time it takes to make them- we’ve seen it time and time again at every level in Ireland, including in this area. Chuck it in the bin! Let’s start again! This way is easier- I won’t have to do anything!

Yeah that’s just a rant really isn’t it. As a realistic alternative to English as a first language Irish is dead, dying, pushing up the daisies, and any other month pythonesque description one wishes to apply. There’s a difference between looking for new solutions and facing up to the fact that a cause is lost. The real question is how much do we wish to invest in this sentimentality. For me I think it should be optional in school at best. Perhaps a referendum will be needed before this is settled.

I suspect you would be greatly disappointed by the results of a referendum. Trying to stamp out sentiment in Ireland… have you just moved here? Have you one Irish friend?

No-one is even suggesting that Irish replace English as a first language, just that we continue to support it’s use and facilitate people to learn it as best we can (whatever that way might be). Maybe it’s hard for you to imagine a country where people can speak more than one language, but your problems are you own. Thankfully.

I agree, though, that there is a difference between searching for solutions and knowing when a cause is lost. Maybe it’s all that sentiment talking, but I think our definitions of ‘lost cause’ vary wildly. How can any cause be lost when it generates this much commentary on a dry, summer’s, Saturday afternoon?

In English.

Well it would be fairly rude to reply to someone in another language, wouldn’t it? I make an assumption when I communicate that I want that other person to understand what I’m saying, so I will do that in language they use whenever I can.

C dav is right it’s just a rant. Makes no real sense at all

Aithníonn ciaróg ciaróg eile.

Huh?

The Irish language should be thrown to the trash heap of history.
My reasoning is this, as an Irishman who has lived 33 of his 38 years in Ireland I have never once used the Irish language in a meaningful conversation.
The way Irish was shoved down my throat and my unsuccessfulness at mastering the language resulted in a mental block from learning other languages. In the previous year I have spent significant amounts of time learning dutch, danish and spanish and really enjoy learning them.

The only ones backing the Irish language are a bunch of hard core extremists who also belong to the ash heap of history.

We dont need a modern version reg.. We still haven’t fulfilled the promise of the first one. For God sake we still have partition on the island

It’s a school project. It gets kids thinking about the original one and and interpreting it for an Ireland that is 100 years older. No harm in that at all.

Supernova shinnertroll, you should read the Proclamation, especially the reference to the “gallant allies in Europe”.

It was a case of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” in 1916 Diarmuid. The authors of the proclamation were about to put their lives on the line to gain Irish sovereignty which Kenny then gave up without a whimper.

Not like Imperial Russia, the British Empire or the French Third Republic (with it’s vast imperial realm in Africa and SE Asia) were that much different from Imperial Germany or Austria-Hungary. You swear the Allies were some force for good fighting against unadulterated evil, than again people often try to telegragh the second World War back to the first.

Tbh independence was probably the worse thing to happen to Irish language. If were in the UK still I imagine the Gaeltacht would probably be in better condition.

Very well said ISC, im sending my Son to a Gael Scoil next year so wanted to introduce him to the language, I’ve used Cuala Caint a fee app and cartoons off tg4, Im enjoying getting back into it. Its our language and we have to drive it. There’s a good free lesson resource on Indo site by Liam O’M well worth a look at..

You want to get onto apps? Can we speak plainly here – the reason French, German, Spanish, Italian and hundreds of other languages still exist is that they are spoken in the home, in the street, in life generally as the mother tongue. The situation here is not the same. For reasons related to the former conquest, and for the convenience of communication with the outside world, our ‘mother tongue ‘ is English. To suggest otherwise is dishonest. Let those who have an historical or cultural interest in it work away – but I strongly object to the suggestion that it be constantly foisted on those who don’t want it.

Where did I suggest it should be foisted onto anyone? You do your own thing go raibh maith agat!

So you would be happy for it not to be compulsory in schools then obviously

fair play , that’s how you pick it up , little things like that .

rasher, what I’m saying is that if its left to the Parents then children won’t learn it all . I think they should learn it up to secondary school and then let them make the decision for themselves .

Paul , does it matter ?

seán ,that is the most sensible and to the point comment on this topic .

Criostoir – I do not converse in Irish and I’m not your son!

Powerabbey. I have never agreed with you before, but my spouse had a similar education and was strongly of the belief that it was a disadvantage affecting other subjects.

Rashers – I hope your wife has the sense to get your political views into an area that will help the continued improvement of the future of Ireland.

Yup a Bearloirí Bigot, fairly common out there in the Galltacht

Thing is Kenny dosent think

Bollocks again.