John, all perfectly valid questions for Russia to ask of Ukraine when an accusory finger is being pointed at them. And I’m also not going to get into the finger-pointing debate.

Some caveats to your comment.

A preliminary report into an aviation incident/crash does not attempt to answer all the “what, how, when, why, who” questions. It’s what is says on the tin: A Preliminary Report. The reason it doesn’t is usually because the investigation team is not in possession of all the data, facts, and it is still in the process of requesting the release or still examining data. They will use government channels to request or legally force the release of all global data while the investigation is on-going. To call a preliminary report a failure because it doesn’t immediately answer all questions is somewhat unfair, as this is not the intention of the report.

The final report will attribute reason, blame, responsibility and usually make recommendations. As this is potentially also a criminal investigation, involving accusations of a war crime on a civilian aircraft, the investigation team is not going to offer any conclusions at this point, because that will likely lead to national or international legal proceedings.

Mick Rooney a lot of good points there. My main problem is that the Russians were effectively tried and convicted before the investigation began. Sanctions were ratcheted up by our leaders in the EU based on that. The EU economy is suffering based on that. Spanish food producers are protesting, Polish Apple producers are up in arms. Businesses are going bust because of it. Now while our economy suffers we have a right to the release of all data immediately due to Washington poisoning the water. Failing that I’ll be happy with an immediate dropping of s sanctions against Russia, unilaterally by the EU despite what Washington says, pending the finalisation of the report and it’s complete disclosure of all data.

@ David Jordan .. Who supplied these ” Intercepted phone calls, and photos ” ? The same people that are withholding vital information from the ATC. You are never going to get the whole truth on this Black Op, too many NATO country’s involved, the cover up began the minute the plane was shot down.

“…we have a right to the release of all data immediately due to Washington poisoning the water.”

John, this public “right to information” gets thrown out everytime there is a global or national issue up for discussion and governments, EU or United Nations impose santions or an embargo. Anything under legal, national or international investigation remains privy to those bodies sharing the information. I don’t like it any more than you do. I agree, if trade santions are imposed on Russia, then we should have the evidence for imposing those santions made public. But unfortunately that’s not how the world we live in now works. It’s the same reason Bush and Blair were allowed prosecute there attack and invasion on Iraq under the illusion of weapons of mass destruction. Intelligence agencies don’t make evidence available, they just play “bring and show” behind closed doors, throw titbits to media outlets, and hope we will all row in behind their claims.

Often, when it’s too late, years later, we discover the only substance was fear-mongering or circumstancial evidence that actually existed. Every government (whether the USA, Britain, Ireland Ukraine or Russia) has its “Barbara Starr” in the media, happy to be wined and dined, and parrott exactly what he/she is told to say and report because they were “privy” to confidential information.

But I also think we should give due credit to the international investigation team in this (Dutch & Malaysia). They are not the ones calling for sanctions on Russia. As usual, it’s global superpowers like the USA who actually have feck all to do with this investigation imposing their political will and agenda because they claim to have “intelligence” information that is so sensitive that it can only be shared behind closed doors, and the rest of us should just accept it without seeing or touching it.

Mick Rooney agree with everything you said. Well put.

Mick Rooney do you have any concerns that one of the suspects in the investigation, the Ukrainians, can veto the publication of data if they so wish?

John, normally the country where the crash has taken place would play a primary role in the investigation. Not in this case for two reasons; 1. The site is technically not under the control of Ukraine, but the separatist held Donesk region. 2. The Ukranian Government agreed to step back and allow Holland and Malaysia take the led. That doesn’t allow them any veto on data already in the hands of investigators. What doesn’t help matters in this case is that they may have their own motivations for not making all radar and military data available. And it might not be necessarily because the data implicates them in any way – simply an unwillingness to share sensitive military data.

So I wouldn’t say Ukraine have a veto as such, but they can refuse to share data or simply deny the existence of any, the latter would be the more likely excuse. We had the same issue with MH370. Nations were asked to check their primary and secondary radar and their satellite records for evidence of MH370′s movements. In that instance, everyone roundly returned with a firm “nope – checked but haven’t seen anything.”

This is the worst kind aviation incident to investigate because everyone picks their horse from the get-go and there’s too many chefs standing over the pot. They usually take years to conclude. I’m not even sure the investigators on the ground will ever be able to remove debris out of Ukraine, and that’s one instance where Ukraine could use an international veto.

@ .. John Deegan.. There is something not quite right about our “friend” Mick Rooney.

@David, great reply – thanks.

You left out the bit about “Carlos” the “Spanish ATC at Kiev” twitter account who was the single source for the “Ukrainian Fighter Jet” angle.

The twitter account was deleted very shortly after the shootdown when it turned out that Spanish “Carlos” was unknown to the tiny Spanish community and Embassy in Kyiv and couldn’t speak Spanish very well, though his Russian was native-standard.

Actually the main source for the Ukrainian fighter jet angle was OSCE monitor Michael Bociurkiw who reported signs of machine gun fire on the “fuselage” that were “unique marks that we haven’t seen anywhere else.” There was also Lufthansa pilot Peter Haisenko who made a report concluding a machine gun fire attack. There is also the radar evidence from the Russian government showing a Ukrainian fighter jet ascending rapidly toward MH17 just before it’s loss. There is also the BBC report of eye wtinesses who claim to have seen a fighter jet take down MH17. That report was removed by the BBC almost immediately for not meeting “editorial standards” though they haven’t elaborated why. Oh and please don’t try to tell us SU-25 cannot reach 10km that’s been debunked a few times.

@ .. Robin Hilliard.. Yes, his account was terminated, he was threatened by Kiev, and his family with murder, Yes, he has turned up. It was in fact Russian radar and a BBc video of eye witnesses that told of the other plane, the video was taken down by BBC ? http://www.4thmedia.org/2014/07/deleted-bbc-report-ukrainian-fighter-jet-shot-down-mhi7-donetsk-eyewitnesses/

The ATC recordings disappearing ? A cover up, the guilty speak.

Given that the Russian Army — as we know from last week’s Amnesia Brigade incident — has no idea where the Ukrainian border is, you’ll excuse me if I ignore with laughter the video-game radar thing (called “evidence” by RT) produced with indecent haste after the shootdown by that gloomy military type supplied by Kremlin central casting.

If it’s so laughable Robin, why hasn’t any competent authority refuted it?

@ Chis Devitt You don’t agree with Mick Rooney’s analysis?

@.. John Deegan.. I agree with most of the facts, its like someone has a database to work from. The same method of recruiting the followers though,” only read what I say is cool” I am your leader, I will say what sources are kosher. The very same methods tried on by Avina and Jason, ” censor yourself for us” be one of the flock. Some of the bots are good, but they have to control their followers diet.

John, Chris is entitled to his views, whether I agree with claims he makes about cover-ups or finger-pointing. I said earlier today I wasn’t going to go down that road. Unlike MH370, we’ve actually too much circumstancial evidence in this case. Everything from Twitter accounts of militia commanders talking with unnamed rebels at the crash site, to photographs of BUK missile launchers eing secreted away in the quite of night. I’ve asked, but I’ve yet to get a definitive answer on the SU25 and its altitude ceiling. I certainly don’t accept that a fighter jet was hiding or shadowing MH17. I’m sceptical of GlobalResearches’ claims of two fighter jets.

From what I’ve researched, MH17 requested a change of course due to turbulance and weather. They were not instructed by Ukraine ATC to alter their original flight path. Much has been made of 14k flight path diversion, but that’s nothing in aviation terms. Much will depend on whether the frontal cockpit damage was caused by direct or a proximity blast. The fact that both engines fell intact at the main crash burn site leads me to believe that the SU25 attack is not valid. Fighter jet arsenal missiles are heat seeking and target the engines. There is no evidence to support an engine blast. The crash site is more consistent with a catostrophic blast to the nose and cockpit and that’s why it fell to earth first.

A BUK missile tends to rise above its target and strike downward. Machine gunfire from a fighter jet is usually from behind.

… and below its target.

I’ve no horse in this race. I deal with the facts and reality. I don’t indulge in political agendas or conspiracy theories without a fathom of foundation.

This has been a horrible tradegy whoever perpetrated it, whether deliberately or by mistake. My sense of humanity wants me to believe those behind this took the lives of 298 innocent people, not because it was some deliberate act of terror, but because they were mistaken, and believed MH17 was a cargo or military plane. What we should never do is attribute blame or responsibily to the pilots who likely knew nothing of what happened on July 17th.

I can only attribute that what we witnessed when the first coffins returned to Dutch soil on international TV to Hilversum was repeated day after day, and the every soul was afforted the same dignity they deserved. Even when the mass media got their photo op on the first day, and disappeared on to the next mass media story, the same Dutch people turned out to line streets, motorways, bridges, to welcome home those souls.

Just like 9/11, every cockahoop, conspiracy theory without foundation disrepects those who lost their lives. I’ve read some crap on here, pedalled by those locked in the confines of their own minds, bedrooms and sanctity of the Internet, who even had the balls to claim the passengers of MH17 were mere corpses, magiced in, and that relatives, who I stood beside at Schiphol Airport were – like MH370 relatives – mere actors on a stage.

@ John Deegan .. Not totally and, there seems to be some other agenda there, this issue is too important to be left to a bunch of NATO country’s to decide what will be made public the when is also important.

@.. John Deegan . John, this guy is trying to prepare us for the cover up, may I be the first to congratulate you on being put into someone’s conspiracy theory theory, whether you like it or not.
There was no coup, we don’t even know if there was a plane, it is all just a conspiracy theory, get back to your gruel, it was just your imagination, a conspiracy theory.

@Chris… So you’ve decided that 28 NATO countries should not be trusted? Fair enough. So who do you think should run the investigation. As Malaysia are not a NATO member, maybe we should just leave them high and dry to figure it all out. Or perhaps let Ukraine and Russia fight it out between them.

@Chris… LOL. I’m flattered that you think enough of me to be a part of a cover-up, or do you pay the same compliment to anyone who doesn’t exactly see the world through your eyes? Damn it, and there was I thinking…

I’ll just help John Deegan finish off that gruel.

Mick Rooney who mentioned globslresearch.ca? The Russians produced hard evidence of a fighter jet shadowing MH17. I haven’t seen any competent body refute that. There were also multiple eyewitness reports on BBC. They took down the report subsequently but google cached it. How can you know ATC didn’t order MH17 off course? After all the voice recording and ATC nobody has heard yet.

Have seen the video, John. I did ask the question some days ago whether an SU25 is capable of flying at 33k for very long as it is at its operational ceiling. 3-5km is not “shadowing” another aircraft, as has been incorrectly reported by media orgs. I did ask the question here some days ago whether an SU25 can lock, target and fire at that kind of ceiling. The Russian Defence Ministry report the jet was ascending. Yes, I’ve also seen the BBC reports from eye witnesses. I don’t question there was a fighter jet in the area. That’s normal in a war zone. Several have been shot down over the past two months. I doubt the eye-witnesses just happened to be looking up at a passenger jet flying innocently at 33k. What they likely reported was seeing a fighter jet in the vacinity of MH17 as it broke apart and decended. That’s most likely what caught the locals attention.

It’s hard enought to see a large passenger jet at 33k, let alone a smaller fighter jet.

As I have already stated, the examination of the damage on the cockpit will ultimately reveal if MH17 was brought down by a BUK surface missile, or by gunfire from a fighter jet.

My opinion remains that MH17 was not targeted deliberately, but mistaken for the Ukranian fighter jet. The rebels in eastern Ukraine don’t have jets, and I doubt the Ukranian airforce would target a passenger aircraft and try to pin it on the Russians when they themselves are in posession of Buks.

And I’ll add the final word on this. I read all the specs and claims on the SU25 argument. But for me, it’s like taking a pea-shooter to a firing range. If the Ukrainians really wanted to take out a large commercial jet, and blame it in the Putin, they have better SUs and Migs to do the job.

The crash site and debris tells its own story, how it broke up and fell to the earth. The front end blast was catastrophic – instant – the cockpit and front cargo hold were already falling to earth as the centre fuselage, complete with engines, begin to spiral out of control, falling several kilometres further on. R60 gunfire didn’t create that.

Mick R60 is air to air missile not gunfire. The Russians could not definitely identify the craft they said it was probably an SU25. They can hit a target at 12km and can’t miss from 5km. The Russians made the SU25 so imo if they state it can fly at 10km the burden of proof is upon disproving that if you don’t agree. The Russians have provided hard evidence if Ukrainian buk system in the war zone moved in just before July 17th. On the day of the crash Kiev buk specific radar activity increased dramatically. Question is why? The idea that NATO has no horse in this race is not credible. Conspiracy theorist labels are convenient for deflecting questions and lads like Frank with his 7s are handy for that purpose. The fact is false flags have been executed before. Gulf of Tonkin, operation north woods are on public record. You said you don’t do finger pointing but you think it’s the rebels who brought down the plane. It’s interesting how you can come to that conclusion given the Russian questions which were raised. Again Russia was accused of direct involvement without evidence. The narrative has been framed it seems. I hope the real investigators have a more open mind than yourself. To my mind any investigation which fails to answer s the Russian questions won’t be credible.

@.. Mick Rooney .. Your too late to ask who should run the investigation, as you already know. After Malyasia tried Israel for war crimes its airline is now under financial pressure, shares down, mass lay offs, MH 370 ? pressure to comply with NATO. So, mick, give us your opinion of who should be in charge of the investigation.
No decent civilized society would allow the people responsible for a Black Op to run the investigation, we only have to look at chemical weapons in Syria. If you chose to be brain dead, good for you.
Only a brain dead zombie could think there is no cover up going on.

@ .. Mick Rooney.. No Mick, you don’t get the final word. The Ukrainians and their masters are not as slow witted as you, they are well aware of plausible deniability ant the art of the cover up. There will be many trolls like you trying to preach the goodness of the west, maybe next you will be telling us it was no ones fault, just an accident.

@Chris, there are international laws set out to decide who should run an investigation. As I’ve already pointed out with links, Ukraine decided to cede the lead in the investigation to the Dutch and Malaysians.

You seem to have decided, no one isgood enough to lead the investigation, whether a NATO member or not. You’ve also decided this is another “black Op” so I’ve no interest in changing your mind on that.

If you want to descent into calling anyone “zombies” or “brain dead” because they don’t agree with your point of view or how you see the world – that`s your choice, and good luck to you on that. You do it on every other thread you comment on so I wouldn’t expect anything different here.

@John, I’ve still an open mind on this. It was the Russians who aid there was an fighter in the area, and it was “probable” to be an SU25, but could have been an SU27. I’d be more convinced if it was proven to be an SU27 or other higher altitude capable fighter. My bad on the R60, yes that’s a missle, but the point I was making was the claims that scraphnel damage on the cockpit could also be 30mm cannon fire. I still believe it more likely MH17 was mistakenly brought down and identified as a military aircraft, rather than deliberately targeted as a passenger plane. Both Ukraine and the rebels have BUKs, but I don’t see the motivation for Ukraine targeting a passenger plane, unless your suggesting Ukraine are blasting their own military jets and cargo planes out of the sky so they can blame it on the rebels, whether backed by Russian commanders or not.

@.. Mick Rooney.. A very important point Mick, as the plane made a 180 degree turn while descending, its speed was reduced to 200 Kph. The voice recordings from MH 370 were released three days after it disappeared. Whats the delay here ?

I can only suspect the plane was critically disabled at that stage. 200kph would be somewhere around 110 knots. A large aircraft like a 777 on direct approach at 1500 feet in a normal land situation would be doing about 150+ knots dependent on weight.

The unwillingness of the Ukrainian authorities to release ATC recordings at this stage makes no sense, and I don’t believe the remit of the investigation stops them doing that if they wanted too. They are not a NATO nation and could be doing a great deal more in the interest of transparency. WE got the full ATC audio with transcripts within a month of MH370. As John D indicated elsewhere on this thread, Russia were quick to produce data when the finger-pointing started. The USA haven’t, as yet, publicly produced a shred of evidence to back up claims of heat signatures from a missile and intelligence data on Russian involvement. Tiz all words, and we know where rhetoric got us with weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and chemical weapons in Syria.

I’ve still a lot of concerns and questions about whether a fighter jet could have taken this plane down at 33,000 feet, and the motivations behind it *if* it was deliberate. It wouldn’t be the first time a civilian aircraft was taken down – the USA have done it, and so have the Russians.

Sure, everyone has a dog in this race and that’s what makes it anything but black and white. Politics plays too much of a role in aviation investigations. I at least try (maybe you don’t agree) to steer away from the geo-politics and concentrate on the ysical evidence, rather than what one side or the other claims. Physical evidence doesn’t have a political motivation, though those presenting it can skew and misrepresent it or draw conclusions that weren’t there.

I’ll say what I said from the outset of this thread. The crash site in Ukraine contains the best and most compelling evidence and the sooner that is properly examined the better.

Yeh, I’m p*ssed off the Dutch and Malaysians are happy to present the preliminary report next Tuesday without a press conference. I’m afraid the media circus that was MH370 has fueled that decision and the fact that MH17 is absolutely loaded with serious political implications and potential civil and global criminal actions in the future.

@ Mick Rooney .. I don’t believe the plane was at 33,000 Ft when it was brought, some prior event had forced it to descend and slow down before the final blow. It looks like everything was done to bring it within shooting distance of two SU 25′s, thus insuring ” plausible deniability “.

Well, that’s the key to this. At what height was the aircraft disabled or hit. Civilian aircraft passing over Ukraine don’t fly over at less than 30k. The pilots would have plotted their flight plan. But no pilot, even under direction of Ukrainian ATC, would have agreed to decend below that 30k ceiling. The pilots were no mugs, the knew they were over a war zone and that would have been taken into account in their flight plan. Many other jets were flying similar waypoints into that area.

The decent was too dramatic and rapid. There is only two reason an aircraft will decend that rapidly. One, the aircraft had experienced a sudden depressure, and the pilot deliberately puts the aircraft into a dangerous dive to quickly get to 10k feet where the oxegen masks are not needed, or two, the aircraft is out of pilot control and literally falling out of the air. The flight radar of MH17 suggests the latter. Anyone can access that data. We don’t need the Ukranians to release ATC data to confirm that. My humble opinion is that MH17 was aleady catostrophically disabled at the moment rapid decent started. A commercial pilot would not have executed a literal dive to 10k cause he/she was asked to by ATC, but because the pilot felt it necassary to save lives, or because the aircaft was hopelessly out of control.

It’s why I go back to my core point. The damage or incident happened at cruising altitude. It’s also been my contention that those on the ground, reporting a fighter plane in proximity, saw it AFTER the event, as the aircraft fell or descended rapidly, probably breaking up. It would have taken MH17 at least a minute to two mintes to break up and fall apart before hitting the ground. A passenger jet at 33-39k at cruising altitude is not something you are going to hear even in a quite Ukranian village. It’s unlikely to catch your attention. But by God you will look up if you hear the roar of a fighter jet flying at a much lower altitude. It’s ony then you will take notice of what is above you.

David blah blah blah cut and paste Jordan.
You paste the same longwinded stuff in every reply.
You didn’t answer the question.
You….ah who cares…

Re David

I wonder what your thoughts are on the agreement signed between the Netherlands, UK, Belgium and Ukraine that states that any country can block the entire report and have it remain classified if they so wish. Very strange indeed. No coverage on Western media re this secret agreement.

Horgay if the agreement was secret then nobody would know about it.
But where is the link that is making this claim.

@ Horgay H.. The Dutch are not helping either, as of August 25 they have decided to withould information from the black boxes to the inquiry, because some Dutch security service insisted. We will have to settle for the cover up, again.

Utter rubbish, Chris! The Dutch don’t have to withhold anything from anybody, because they are the enquiry team themselves, along with Malaysia and all information goes through the led team. They decide what information goes in the prelimanary report on the basis of whether it can be backed up with evidence, not infowars, what Alex Jones says, or whether Frank has all his 7s lined up. It usually takes at least 4-8 weeks to properly examine and process black box information and that data has to cross-referenced with radar and ATC information before it is released. The release of information to the public will also depend on whether there is a criminal investigation, and whether making that information will influence or compromise a future legal case.

Re Mick

The agreement is out there. It conveniently went under the news radar a shirt while ago. Google it.

Horgay you made the claim so back it up.

@ Mick Rooney .. WRONG Mick, they are “Part of the inquiry”, the Malays handed over the boxes to them, so now they assume right of ownership and are witholding info.

@ .. Mick Rooney.. Shame you don’t keep up to speed, we are all adults here, I don’t know about you though, and we can pick and choose what we read or watch, we don’t need your official sanction of any media to look at it. Thanks for the offer but, no thanks.

@Chris Where on earth do you get your information from? The Dutch Safety Board along with Malaysia have been leading the investigation since July 18th. The National Bureau of Air Accident Investigation (NBAAI) of Ukraine, under laws of the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) voluntarily agreed to transfer the lead to the Dutch, despite being the country where the aircraft crashed. It’s normally the country where a crash happens that plays a primary role. In this instance, the Ukrainan Government advised the NBAAI it would be prudent to initiate the ICAO “law of lead transfer” under the circumstances of the downing of MH17. This decision was made in the late hours of July 17th and signed off on July 18th following a meeting of the OSCE, including respresentatives from Ukraine, Germany, Australia, USA, Russia and Malaysia. http://onderzoeksraad.nl/en/onderzoek/2049/investigation-crash-mh17-17-july-2014/onderzoek/1559/questions-and-answers-concerning-the-investigation-into-flight-mh17#fasen

Malaysian authorities have right of ownership of the black boxes as it’s their aircraft. Ukraine DO NOT have right of ownership, and have never claimed such a right. The only role Ukraine authorities played in the handing over of the black boxes to the on-the-ground investigation team (made up of several nations) from the separatists rebels was facilitating the transport of the boxes safely out of Ukraine to a forensic aviation technical lab in the UK.

@ .. Mick Rooney .As I said, the Malays handed over the boxes to the Dutch, I should not have to repeat myself, just look at the post again.

Would never dare tell you, Chris, where or what media to get your information from. You’re doing a perfect job at that at the moment!

Now, perhaps you’d like to enlighten us on what this “some Dutch security service” that is “insisting” to Dutch authorities not to disclose information from the black boxes. Group4 security is it? Perhaps Interpol, or a mercenary group of bouncers from an Amsterdam nightclub?

And why do you presume that Chris Devitt, Moscow, Russia has the exclusive public right and access to black box evidence currently under an international examination and investigation?

Ah, but sure, it doesn’t matter anyway. We pick and choose where we get our information from. And the best place to get information from is through the crack of the curtain when you spy on your neighbours, and the whispers down the street, and that nice guy on the Internet living in a trailer home in the Arizona desert who swears he’s got all the low-down on every international event happening in the world right now.

@ .. Mick Rooney.. ” Would never dare tell you, Chris, where or what media to get your information from. You’re doing a perfect job at that at the moment! ”
So, Mick, why don’t you introduce me to this friend of yours, that nice guy on the Internet living in a trailer home in the Arizona desert who swears he’s got all the low-down on every international event happening in the world right now”. I may find hi interesting, I will give him a chance anyway, it may make more sense than listening to you.

Still waiting for John Kerry’s proof of Russia’s “direct involvement” Joe. I wonder will the report give us that? For safety I won’t hold my breath.

@ . John Deegan. . Yes, John Kerry has been very conspicuous by his silence and absence lately.

Russia should be made to pay heavily for invading Ukraine

Russia didn’t invade Ukraine. Don’t take my word for it ask the IMF.

@.. John Deegan.. . The Disney Studio is still working on it.

re John
Can you enlighten us what the IMF has to do with it?

Marcin the Ukrainians are screaming that the Russians have invaded to western media for two weeks now. They are telling their own people the Russians have launched an “imperial invasion” and that Ukraine is now in a “great patriotic war” with Russia. The thing is the IMF have a policy that they will not release loans funds to a nation at war. So the Ukrainians are telling the IMF that they are not at war with Russia.

@John, even by the standards of purchased pro-Kremlin trolls, your comments, factoids — and the virtual reality in which you appear to live — are unusually bizarre.

But Mick, I’m not the secretary of state of the USA. What’s extremely suspicious here also is the fact that the Ukrainians can veto publication of any data in the report they wish. And if we are to believe the article they are one of the suspects in this tragedy. That’s a little concerning, when one of the suspects in the crime has access to all the data and can veto it’s public release no?

Have the Ukrainians mentioned vetoing any part of the report?
So far what we do know is Russia is supplying weapons and men to the terrorists including Buk Missiles. Several Ukrainian aircraft were shot down in that same region using the Buk system days prior to MH17. The original tweet from Serlkov and the subsequent interview with Khodakovsky. The intercepted Phone calls to and from terrorists to their GRU handlers. We also know the altitude, speed and direction of MH7. We also know that the Russian Ministry of Information originally set out 5 different scenarios one after another where as the Ukrainians and the West have given 1 and stuck to it.
So given what we do know the simplest and most likely explanation is the the terrorists shot down MH17 thinking it was another Ukrainian cargo plane like the other they had shot down that very week.

Mick, I doubt we will even get the “What” from this preliminary report, nevermind the “Who”. The Dutch officials already made it clear yesterday that the report will contain new information or will it attempt to attribute blame. The words of Dutch PM speaking yesterday, roughly translated into English were that “there would be no finger-pointing”. I suspect we will get the how and when, nothing more. So far, from their brief visits to the crash site in July and early August, the investigators have done little more than carry out a cursory observation.

A private satellite company has released detailed ground mapping of the site, and combined with hundreds of photographs taken by photo journalists on subsequent days, The Washington Post did manage to index/identify parts of the aircraft using independent aviation experts. Worth checking out – Anatomy of a Crash Site, published several weeks ago. It’s more than the official investigation team have done! As yet, they haven’t even begun gridding/mapping the area.

All I would expect from the prelininary report is:

1. Yep, it’s a Boeing 777 registered to Malaysia Airlines, Flight MH17.
2. The aircraft broke up in mid-air.
3. All 298 souls were lost.
4. Parts of the front cockpit/fuselage show signs of shrapnel blast not consistent with mid-air break-up from structural failure.
5. Front nose, cockpit, forward cargo hold/landing gear fell to ground first.
6. Main fuselage/engines fell last.

Doubt we’ll get radar/ATC info.

Mick. The damage to the front of the plane will tell them what type of shrapnel caused the plane to break up. And as the Buk system uses a particular size of ball bearing in its warhead they will be able to make an assessment to whether a Buk system was used or not.

Mick, slow down. That’s my point. The evidence sits in a field in Ukraine. A visual observation means nothing without it being properly tested. Hence, that’s why this claim of missile fire from a BUK is not going to be included in the preliminary report. The investigators can look at those schrapnel holes and think, they weren’t caused by the engines coming apart. But until the metal sheeting is removed and tested, it has no legal standing, and it won’t form any part of the preliminary report, because a preliminary report does not set out to present conclusions or findings. Even tests on the metal to verify the presense of ball-bearings consistent with a particular type of missile warhead won’t be enough to prove conclusively it was a missle until the US government release the data they claim shows the heat signatures from a ground-fired weapon.

Nothing ironic at all, Frank, because next Tuesday is September 9th, not the 11th. Doh! Back to the abacus for you!

Can you remind me why sevens are important Frank?

But it is September, the Roman seventh month. And two days after 7 september so exactly half way between 772014 which is 777 and 9112001 and 911 is the emergency number in the US and 777 firemen died and 1492014 is really important too and so is any date whose digits add up to 7 but only in the Gregorian calendar What you really need to look for is the pondered in the Islamic calendar and the shape of the Georgian character for the Russian letter which is transliterated in the Latin alphabet as dzh. Scary stuff when you think independently read non sionista controlled media and imagine things that go bump in the night.

7 represents perfection….It is the 7th letter in the alphabeth.. God created the world in 7 days….

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51x2omF7ovL._SX342_.jpg

Not strictly true Ablitive, according to the book of Genesis god created the world in 6 days she then took the seventh off, just kicked back on Sunday done sweet feck all and smoked a joint from the new tree of knowledge she had just made and was well pleased with herself.

love it molly.

Molly…It was a Saturday that our Lord chilled, the Church of Rome changed the Sabbath to a Sunday.

Thanks Jamie.
No Ablitive, I distinctly remember it being on Sunday it was the day after I made all the creatures and humans and was totally knackered, it was a beautiful sunny day – hence the name SUNday :)

Frank the Sabbath is still the seventh day no matter if its Friday, Saturday or Sunday. So your math is still wrong. 6 days to create and the seventh day to rest.

Mick Jordan… six represents man in the Bible….the sixth word of the sixth verse of the sixth chapter of the sixth book in the New Testimant of the KJV you will find the word Man.

Frank you stated “God created the world in 7 days”. As Molly has said it was 6th and He rested on the 7th. So 7 is irrelevent

And naturally it is also the sixth word of the Sixth verse of the sixth chapter in the Armenian, Aramaic, Bulgarian, Russian, Jewish, Arabic, Chinese, Hindi and French translations of the original Hebrew?

The sixth word of the sixth verse of the sixth book (Joshua) KJV version is not man, actually the word is – Nun.

LLF Frank got them all talkin absolute shite, good man hehe ;)

Try keep up with the Profile pic.