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Updated 14.33: Paraic Collins, who works in a newspaper in Istanbul, had contacted our comments section to say that the voting rigging for Ataturk is making headlines in Turkey. See comments below.
THE IRISH REVOLUTIONARY Michael Collins is currently second in an online poll to find out who is ‘Britain’s Greatest Foes’ of all time.
The poll is on the British National Army Museum website, to promote an exhibition called ‘Enemy Commanders’. The Museum’s staff selected a list of 20 to form the ‘leaderboard’. The top five, as voted for by the public in the poll, will be discussed by historians at a seminar at the British Army Museum in Chelsea, London on 14 April.
Currently, Collins is second only to the first President of Turkey, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. Ataturk was listed because he “fought a tenacious defensive campaign at Gallipoli in 1915 which forced the Allied invasion force to withdraw”. However, it is noted on the poll that there has been some unusual voting patterns that might have put Ataturk at the top, with a message from curators that: “Unfortunately we have had to remove some of the votes registered for Mustafa Kemal Ataturk over the weekend as they were generated artificially and were therefore not within the spirit of the competition.”
Collins is in the list because, according to museum staff, “With his talent for organisation and logistics, Collins helped transform the Irish Republican Army into a powerful insurgent force that fought the British to a standstill”.
Collins fought in the 1916 Rising and was interned in Frongoch prison camp in Wales. On his return to Ireland, he became Sinn Féin MP for Cork South but abstained from Westminster and became Director of Intelligence for the IRA in September 1919. After a bitter guerilla campaign against British forces here, he formed part of the Treaty delegation sent to London and signed the Anglo-Irish Treaty, a treaty which split the country and led to the Civil War. Collins was commander-in-chief of the new Irish Army and was killed in an ambush in Cork in August 1922.
The description of Collins on the poll says that:
Collins was the outstanding leader of the Irish War of Independence and fought the British to a standstill. He made much of Ireland ungovernable with an army that never exceeded more than 3,000 active volunteers at any given time. He also had an instinctive understanding of the strengths and limitations of guerilla warfare, realising that the IRA could not completely defeat the British.Indeed on the eve of the 1921 treaty discussions, he conceded that his army was running out of weapons and ammunition. Collins compromised in order to win a partial victory, but he is said to have commented after signing the treaty: ‘I tell you, I have signed my death warrant.’
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“Collins fought in the 1916 Rising and was interned in Frongoch prison camp in Wales. On his return to Ireland, he became Sinn Féin MP for Cork South but abstained from Westminster and became Director of Intelligence for the IRA in September 1919. After a bitter guerilla campaign against British forces here”
Collins would have had the current government and the last government executed for treason!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes he would and Rightly so !!
Give it a rest. There are other forums for your nonsense.
I certainly agree. I have no doubt that if Michael Collins, Sean Lemass and Liam Lynch came back, they would patch up their dispute and would have gone to the last FF Ard Fheis and executed every single person there for treason. Naturally I would be aghast at it and the harsh justice that it represented.
Jesus that didn’t take long at all…
truth hurts Noel………
Yosser I was more commenting on the sort of cranks who hijack any news story to vent on the government and previous governments. I do have my own views on what our founders would think of the state of the country now but there’s a time and place for those and this isn’t it.
@ Noel … It has everything to do with the state of our country right now … Many good men gave their lives for this country to be independent. And what our last 2 administrations have done is nothing short of treason. They have sold our sovereignt away for a few silver pieces. I say again, the heroes of 1916 and the war of Independence fought to make Ireland a proud nation, able to stand on its own feet. Why else would they have fought. If you cant see the point, then i am sorry, we must disagree. We are coming to the centenary of 1916. How proud do you feel of a country that is systematically putting down and hurting the poorest in our society? Do you think that this is what Collins and all the other fighters died for?
free state b@sterd
Why was civil war fought? Because Michael Collins realised that sometimes difficult steps are necessary to have a free and independent nation and so he was willing to sign a treaty that gave up some of Ireland’s sovereignty in the hope for a better tomorrow.
And another group of yahoos shouted ‘treachery to Ireland, treachery to Ireland, full sovereignty or nothing’ and shot Collins dead. Because they couldn’t understand the concept of playing the long game.
I admire Noel Carroll trying to make a point here, but he shouldn’t bother. Just click through to the profile of any of these SF trolls and you’ll see that the accounts (such as Eggers and Yosser Hughes here) are bogus accounts set up for sole purpose of polluting the comments section of thejournal.ie
Which is a shame, because it’s a great site.
@Seamus, i am not a SF party member, i never was, and never will be … My facebook account is real, check me out. I checked yours however, and your account is a fake facebook account, or do you genuinely only have 8 friends??? You sound like a FFg/Labour twat, willing to use thsi sort of story to attack SF… Shame on you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The irony of the above comment is absolutely priceless.
Collins was a true Irish Hero, unlike that half arsed american tosser Dev
Brian, i am guessing you dont like Americans??????????????
I’m guessing that he doesn’t like tossers.
I`m guessing in place of American he in fact means half Irish Half Cuban. But then again I imagine Brian is guessing quite a lot and getting his misguided facts from crappy Neil Jordan movies.
No Gary… I don’t get my knowledge from any one source. Dev held this country back or decades with his twee views of what Ireland should be……… and these are my views despite being from a FF family
@ Cal…….. Only the stupid ones, and there are many of those……
@ Eggers…. sure isn’t everyone either a tosser or a lying tosser
I just presume that he was talking about the Religious fanatic who despised unwed mothers and children who was born in a hospital for unwed mothers in New York to a Cuban father, although this is in no way certain as the papers for baby dev appeared many years after he was born and he was coming to New York as a grown man collecting a fortune over a period of 2 years for the war effort at home, not that the IRA or Dáil Eireann ever saw a penny of that.
Disproportionate much! How about Mssrs. Hitler, Stalin et al?
The poll is on Commanders in the field. Rommel is included, Hitler is not.
Collins arguably achieved the most in the field of battle with the least resources. Redefined the field of battle for the British as well.
The tactics of the IRA in the Black and Tan war were emulated across the then territories of the British Empire. The writings of IRA leaders were found in the possessions of fighters from Africa, to Cyprus and Palestine. Gandhi gave thanks and praise to them and their courage.
Even great fires starts with a single spark.
Eh, Stalin was a British Ally…
1939-1931 Stalin was no friend of Britain
Gandhi?
I am currently ın Istanbul workıng ın a newspaper and there ıs much beıng made of the votıng fıasco surroundıng Ataturk’s fırst place. Of course beıng Irısh I got a lot of praıse that Collıns ıs second!
Turks and Irısh have an unusal connectıon thanks to theır PM – durıng the Famıne year’s – who defıed the Brıtısh and shıpped food and money to aıd Ireland at the loss of a shıp and theır men.
They landed ın Drogheda where they stayed one nıght before returnıng home.
PM?
@paraic where’s the dots over your i’s gone?
Have a look at your keyboard and guess….
The dots are missing because I was using a Turkish keyboard. (using my own laptop now)
PM = Prime Minister
As a Cypriot i have nothing to say about Turks ‘peacemaking’ success…
…some of the local commanders were also successful with even less than Collins had at his disposal.
Anyone interested should read Tom Barry’s ‘Guerrilla Days in Ireland’.
A great read and an extraordinary man – a Kerryman too, but nobody’s perfect.
sure dev didnt have the testicular fortitude to do what the big lad did. when the going got tough, dev waved his american passport and fecked off back to the states.
This is my favourite comment. Ever. Testicular fortitude may be the greatest phrase I’ve ever read
We should look on this with a certain level of national pride, this man and his comrades gave the worlds most effective fighting force a war they couldnt win, even though they couldnt possibly win themselves. The courage and strength of character that all of those men possessed is something we cannot compare to in the modern era. It also illustrates the respect afforded Collins by the British militiary, an enemy yes, but a damned effective one.
My uncle who’s heavily into the whole genealogy thing recently found out that we are related to him on my Nanna’s side, I’m from Liverpool (English) and couldn’t be more proud of him! He fought for what he believed in and ok he may have fought ‘ugly’ but sure who doesn’t when you want to win a battle!
Suerly Tom Barry should be up there too?
He was only in charge of the West Cork Column as opposed to Collins who was the superior to them all.
collins is a hero simple as. only for him id be ordered to walk underneath a union jack flag have a passport that has british on it most likely so ers up the rebels get back our teddys head :)
Michael Collins is a legend!!!!
Hasn’t been another man like him since!!
i meant today only for collins ireland could still be under british rule so he,s a hero and wrongly slaughtered in beile na bla by dev cause dev knew what collins would return with and was to chicken to go with it
Remember that part of Ireland is still under British rule, a fact that Collins resented up to his last day and he continued to support and arm the IRA in the North in their attacks against the British forces there.
Collins saw the use of war against the British occupation as a tactic not a principal, to be turned off when needed, but also to be turned on when needed. It is one of the most important points that those that claim him for a certain party forget.
Although there’s obviously no way to prove, theres an interesting argument that we actually would have achieved home rule as a united Ireland had 1916 never happened. Basically its that the Home Rule Bill that was passed and due to be instated was put on hold because of WW1, but was due to be brought in once it was over. There was serious opposition from Unionist in Belfast but they were being ignored by Westminister. Home Rule would have put the 32 counties under some form of rule from Dublin and the whole thing would have snowballed until independence was little more than a formality, much like what happened later in India.
Its little more than a theory really but its an interesting alternative history.
Colin’s grave in glaseniven cemetery worth a visit it’s the grave of a true hero that sleevine devs grave is a different picture in the same grave yard
I agree with Conor, how could he possibly compare to Hitler?
I think the point is that he doesn’t. It seems to be a list of ‘foes’ that the British have some level of respect for. Can’t really see them saying anything too complementary about Mr.Hitler.
Hitler wasn’t a military foe. The headline is a little bit misleading. The poll is about Britain’s foes militarily, not their “biggest enemy”.
And anyway, Hitler only made two major military decisions throughout WW2. First, he stopped German forces advancing on Dunkirk and therefore allowed thousands of Allied soldiers etc. to escape. And secondly, he insisted on the invasion of Russia despite huge opposition from his commanders. Those two decisions are probably two of the major mistakes that cost Germany the war.
What a funny finger pointing race we are. Personally I would imagine that it is people who call their mother ‘mum’, the Gardaí the ‘police’, and soccer ‘football’ that would have Collins turning in his grave. The cultural influence of the nation across the pond; the smug, soulless and self satisfied monster that now personifies post tiger Ireland – this is not what Collins would have foreseen.
What does it mean to be Irish Rick O’Shea – a load of bandwagon jumpers unable to pronounce the letter ‘o’ properly whose pride in roots and identity depends on what day of the week it is. Oh, and our politicians have let us down for sure, but we went for the ride too.
Yeah because semantics were Collins’ great love.
what bugs me how dev changed his tune a few years later and took over a tioshach . what made him change his mind ? did he ever feel guilt for what happined to once his closest ally collins??
Why do you think that Dev. ever changed his tune?
What evidence is there that he was ever a Republican. He was ordered to turn up on Easter Monday, his men were given givens guns and ammunition and nexst thing Dev knew he was involved in a rebellion. He ordered his men not to shoot at the British soldiers but plenty ignored him. He only became adamant in the post treaty period when it looked like he was going to be sidelined, and then he bacame hardline.
Whatever you think of the treaty etc, of either side, Dev was a shameless political opportunist, and gravitated to whatever position would give him power. That was the only war that Dev ever fought in or was willing to give all for.
Troops under Dev engaged the Sherwood Foresters and fought the most successful skirmish of the 1916 Rising. He may well not have been a Republican, but neither for that matter was Arthur Griffith, the founder and president of Sinn Fein.
I think in the strictest sense, if you take “enemy” in the military sense (a combatant) and not the emotive malicious sense (a scumbag who must be destroyed) then yeah, Collins was an enemy to the British.
Michael Collins, Apollo 11. I remember him alright.
My sister bought an auld farm in Lissarda, close to Beal na blaith, it has a nice old farmhouse, Mick slept there the night before he died. All the furniture is really old but great quality including 2 fireside chairs.
Just read the comments on the poll and you can be sure it is supporters of Michael Collins that has him so high in the poll ranks.
It’s just another silly online poll (from the UK) hi-jacked by the Irish people.
Do you think that might be the case?
Does you suggestion not seem to be the least likely option??
It may be that it is from the uk but who better to speak on an Irish man than Irish people, I mean 99% of english people have no knowledge of Irish history, so how can they speak with any authority on Irish affairs, how may I ask can one “hi-jack” a subject that involves ones own history.
I think the Irish diaspora in the uk numbers more than 1% and they are particularly into telling their kids about Ireland and its history to the point where it is an optional unit in the GCSE syllabus!
Joseph I think we have crossed lines I wasn’t referring to the Irish community in the uk which stands at the moment at about 1.4%, I was just commenting on how little the english themselves know of Irish history, from speaking to my english friends it has always them how little they were taught in school about Irish history, sorry if you were offended.
No offence taken Damien, for the majority of English people it would be the same as an Irish person learning about Henry VIII or Charles I and the civil war, just not on their radar, I suppose I was different given my background, I can’t get over it only being 1.4% though, thought it would be higher!
No matter what side of the fence people sit on, I doubt any of our great Statesmen would be too happy with the present lot on either side of the divide. Has evolution somehow managed to rid the human race of great patrons of state? Stick that in your PHD and write it.
Now we need to borrow another like him,to help free Scotland.We may need more help than some here think.Not much we can write as all is being watched and stored.I think I’ll need a holiday soon,as a child I played on the cobbles of Commons Street,cant afford there anymore.
Michael Collins – one of the greatest murderers in history.
And a great looking girlfriend in Julia Roberts
Interesting view. I come from an anti treaty family & I remember stories being told by my great grandmother that he & the IRA were viewed as murdering bastards. However she also.said.when the tans came to town that view changed. He was different no than any paramilitary man he did what he felt was best for Ireland & that is his legacy. He was a great man.
Totally agree, especially for the execution of his own true republicans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executions_during_the_Irish_Civil_War
Read the first paragraph under the heading ‘Context’.
The executions started after Collins was shot.
with the amount of lives he saved by signing the treaty(because the british promised to start another war if he didnt), saying he was a murderer is absolute blasphemy! perhaps the greatest man in irish history!
collins was like enda kenny said one thing and sold out the six county,s dev. did not shoot him read your history it was sonny o neill
Collins kept arming the IRA in the 6 counties after partition. Dev went off and spent the next 50 years opposing Republicanism of all shades across Ireland and cementing partition.
Dev certainly did not shoot Collins, he never even held a gun in his life. The Boland’s mills volunteers in 1916 all remembered him ordering them not to shoot at British soldiers.
Michael Collins is a very important part of Ireland”s History why take him apart , he had twice the Backbone
of any our present Dictatorial leaders who serve the German”s in every way, and we every man and Woman
in Ireland Need to get a Backbone,quick! we need our voice heard in Europe and not one of our leaders has the right to call them self, respective men or woman of Ireland . they are a shame to all ho have to live true there 55 billion spend this year , just to get back 38 billion in Taxes
We haven’t gone away you know………
We??
Jazus, this story has really reignited Civil War rivalries!
Let’s not forget that this poll refers to military commanders in the field, not just ‘enemies’, and, it seems that personality rather than strict analysis has characterised the voting so far.
I’ve left a comment on the NAM site (Number 20, or 21), if anyone wants to see my views on Big Mick!
@David O’Connell, Traitor, you should be shot,
David O’Connell
16 March 2012, 11.27am
Michael Collins may have been an inspiring Intelligence/Guerrilla Warfare commander, but he certainly wasn’t the greatest military foe faced by the British Army, and he certainly didn’t fight Crown Forces ‘to a standstill’. Had the conflict lasted another 4 to 6 months, the IRA would have been defeated militarily. The much-vaunted ‘Flying Column’, was adopted by Crown Forces in answer to the IRA, (and had been first used by the British Army to quell rebels during the 1798 Rebellion) and was producing results. By early 1920, most rebel forces were confined to the South -West of Ireland, and Crown troops were flooding the various military districts. In addition, the British Intelligence apparatus was obtaining good information, and disrupting the effective capability of the IRA to operate.
The decision to seek a truce was a purely political one, possibly based on the realisation that the authorities had lost the people: the rebellion was not in the hands of a few diehards, but had the backing of the populace at large.
In the interests of full disclosure, I’ve voted for Erwin Rommel
How is Napoleon Bonaparte – the man who caused wars that shaped conventional strategic thinking and military organisation to this day – fourth on the list? How does he get less than 300 votes? Europe was at war for almost twenty years because of him. The man against whom the original Great War was fought.
the greatest hero ireland ever had and being a proud cork woman and the great man from cork himself every year i go to beath na blath every year in august. ive been to woodfield place of his birth and i have been to glasnevin many times to pay respect to michael collins he was a great man and he loved his country he died for it unlike dev who used his american birth to get himself out of the 1916 rising and save himself from being shot unlike the brave men who were killed by the british the true heros of this country
The irony of stories on both Michael Collins and Enda Kenny to-day is that President Obama was escorted to the Dubliner pub in Washington on St. Patrick’s day by none other than MICHAEL COLLINS!
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