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An image of a newborn baby is projected onto Sean Ross Abbey in Co Tipperary on St Brigid's Day as part of the Herstory Light Festival. Niall Carson/PA Wire/PA Images

Varadkar says he was 'quite surprised' that mother and baby home testimony was destroyed

There have been calls for the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes to not be dissolved at the end of the month.

LAST UPDATE | 4 Feb 2021

LEO VARADKAR HAS told the Dáil he was “quite surprised” to hear that audio recordings of witness testimony given to the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes were destroyed.

His comments come amid calls for Children’s Minister Roderic O’Gorman to “take immediate action” to preserve the testimony of witnesses who gave evidence to the commission.

A number of campaigners and opposition TDs have also called for the commission to not be dissolved as planned at the end of the month amid concerns of the deletion of audio recording of testimony.

They say the commission should remain in operation until its members answer questions about its final report, as well as the destruction of audio recordings of witness testimony.

Varadkar said O’Gorman is examining if it “makes sense” to extend the term of the commission so these issues can be examined.

“One of the flaws in the process is an independent body like a commission can spend five years hearing evidence, examining evidence, and then makes its report, but then is not there to explain it,” the Tánaiste said, adding that this needs to change in the future.

Survivors have expressed anger at the deletion of the recordings, with some saying they were not informed their testimony would be destroyed.

The commission is due to remain in operation until 28 February “in order to deal with its archives and other administrative matters”.

Campaigners have questioned why the recordings were destroyed when Section 43 of the Commissions of Investigation Act states that, before the dissolution of a commission, “all evidence received by and all documents created by or for the commission” must be given to the relevant minister.

This includes “records of interviews conducted” by a commission.

Social Democrats TD Holly Cairns said the issues raised by survivors should be addressed before the commission is dissolved.

She has called on Children’s Minister Roderic O’Gorman to “take immediate action to preserve the testimony of witnesses”.

Cairns described the deletion of the audio recording of the testimonies as “a shocking development” and “a further insult to survivors”.

“Over 500 people were brave enough to come before the commission and now we learn that not only were the recordings destroyed but no transcripts were kept.

“Human rights experts and historians have highlighted how inappropriate and unjust this was.”

The commission maintains that survivors were told that the recordings would be destroyed but some witnesses have disputed this, saying they were not informed this was the case.

GDPR

The Data Protection Commissioner (DPC) has asked the commission to provide a legal basis for the deletion of the records.

Cairns noted that, under the 2004 Commision of Investigation Act, commission is “required to retain all evidence it receives”

“Under his own controversial legislation before Christmas, the minister is meant to get a copy of the full archive. It seems the commission is in breach of these requirements,” she added.

Dr Maeve O’Rourke, a lecturer in human rights at NUI Galway and a co-director of the Clann Project which advocates on behalf of survivors, said the commission should not dissolve before these issues are addressed.

“My primary concern is that (the dissolution of the commission) would prevent the Data Protection Commission investigating the commission, and how and why it destroyed the audio, and whether the audio is recoverable.”

O’Rourke said if the commission continues to exist as a legal entity, “that shouldn’t prevent the transfer of what is in the archive over to the minister as planned at the end of month”.

When asked by TheJournal.ie about the destruction of the audio recordings, a spokesperson for the Department of Children said it was “a matter for the commission”.

At the time of publication, the commission had not replied to a request for comment.

A spokesperson for the DPC said the body “has written to the commission with a number of questions around the deletion, and the legal basis for the deletion, of these records. We are awaiting their response”.

The Department of Children, which oversaw the release of the report, has put out a tender for the “provision of expert advice in relation to GDPR, in particular, but not limited to SARs (subject access requests)” on receipt of the commission’s database and records.

The tender “relates to a need for specialist expertise on an ongoing, as required manner, to support the Department to provide legal research expertise to meet the business needs relating to the Commission’s archives including the implementation of the recommendations of the Commission regarding the archives and supporting the ongoing management of the database and records including in the context of processing personal data”.

The department has set €120,000 for the budget.

The tender was published on 19 January and the deadline for submissions is midday on 8 February.

Criticism of report

The commission’s final report, spanning 2,865 pages, details the experiences of women and children who lived in 14 mother and baby homes and four county homes between 1922 and 1998. It was published on 12 January, nearly six years after the commission was first set up.

Many survivors have criticised the report, in particular conclusions which state there was a lack of evidence of forced adoption and abuse, despite testimonies contradicting this.

The Oireachtas Children’s Committee last week invited the chairperson of the Commission, Judge Yvonne Murphy, to appear before it and answer questions about the report.

TheJournal.ie understands that this invitation has not yet been responded to.

Minister O’Gorman has been invited to attend a separate meeting with the committee.

Survivors have also asked to attend another hearing so they can raise any concerns they have.

Kathleen Funchion, the chairperson of the Committee on Children, Disability, Equality and Integration, noted that Justice Murphy is not compelled to appear before the committee but she hopes the former judge will.

Speaking to TheJournal.ie last week, the Sinn Féin TD said there is a lot of hurt and anger among survivors on foot of the report’s publication.

“People were led to believe that the reason it was going to take so long was because everything was going to be gone through with a fine tooth comb, it would be really well put together, really well researched and analysed.

“And it just seems like, at the end of the day, it was just rushed, or that’s how it reads.”

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24 Comments
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    Mute David Corrigan
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    Feb 4th 2021, 6:48 AM

    The brand new extra large mat is currently being put in place and everything will be swept nicely under it by Feb 28th. There will be no justice for the poor souls destroyed in those institutions. The guilty whelps from the church and state will sleep soundly again.

    Done and dusted until the next scandal.

    373
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    Mute Chris Mc
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    Feb 4th 2021, 10:53 AM

    @David Corrigan: let Tusla look after the testimonies. What could possibly go wrong with that.

    130
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    Mute Seán O'Loughlin
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    Feb 4th 2021, 11:25 AM

    Both this Government and the last FG led Government have a LOT to answer for.

    149
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    Mute Bramley Hawthorne
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    Feb 4th 2021, 8:45 AM

    It’s time for a criminal examination, not just of the organisation that ran these ‘institiutions’, but of the support bodies and secret societies that still exist in all tiers of public service, the Dept of Education, RTE etc. The destruction of the testimony was no accident.

    250
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    Mute G Row.
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    Feb 4th 2021, 9:08 AM

    Another funking disgrace.
    There must be some organised group in the middle of all this who are trying to sweep as much of this as possible under the carpet.
    These people need to be weeded out and replaced by people who are on the side of the victims and not the perpetrators.
    Can you imagine the mindset of those that want all this evidence destroyed.

    209
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    Mute Fionn Darland
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    Feb 4th 2021, 2:15 PM

    @G Row.: Very QAnon like thinking there with your Imaginary cabal. A cabal of carpet sweepers! I’ve heard it all now.

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    Mute Adrian O'Donnell
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    Feb 4th 2021, 2:31 PM

    @Fionn Darland: nothing qanon about govts ditching incriminating material. We as a nation have form in this regard. One shouldn’t be so dismissive of the depths of governmental depravity. They will use gdpr to keep stuff out of the public eye that sheds a poor light on them. Politics is often a pile of smoke and mirrors. Remember when we had a finance minister once upon a time who was gifted ten of thousands in cash from his mates because he didn’t have a bank account to lodge it in? That’s what Joe Public is up against. And he went on to become Taoiseach. Remember the helicopters in and out of the Galway races? And just yesterday a terminally ill woman settled out of court for her misdiagnosis with no parties taking the blame. That’s wrong no matter what way you look at it. Optics matter.

    98
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    Mute Ally Mc Culladgh
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    Feb 4th 2021, 11:41 AM

    For those personally effected by the mother and baby homes report

    http://clannproject.org/notify/

    Garda Complaint

    In addition to notifying the Data Protection Commission, if you are personally affected we also recommend that you consider reporting the Commission of Investigation’s destruction of evidence to An Garda Síochána. Under section 31 of the Commissions of Investigation Act 2004, it is an offence for a person to destroy ‘information in any form, relating to any matter within a commission’s terms of reference’ before the commission is dissolved. The Dublin Metropolitan Region Headquarters of An Garda Síochána, based at Harcourt Square in Dublin 2, can be reached on 00 353 1 666 6666. After making a report, you are entitled to be told by the Gardaí about the PULSE incident number which records your report, among other information

    Act before the 28th of Feb

    125
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    Mute Adrian O'Donnell
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    Feb 4th 2021, 2:33 PM

    @Ally Mc Culladgh: this is the most helpful comment I’ve seen on here in a long time. Good on you.

    47
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    Mute Steve Maye
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    Feb 4th 2021, 6:48 AM

    …so, they get their testimonies to give them some sort of catharsis, then destroy them just like they destroyed their lives. Anyone else think this is just sick?

    269
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    Mute D. Memery
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    Feb 4th 2021, 6:54 AM

    @Steve Maye: it will be interesting to see how they respond to the DPC, might explain the rationale and possibilities for recovering the recordings

    62
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    Mute Steve Maye
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    Feb 4th 2021, 7:13 AM

    @D. Memery: Hopefully there is some rationale behind it. I understand how delicate the situation is as regards privacy,
    with some wanting to remain anonymous and others not.

    32
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    Mute Life in no motion
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    Feb 4th 2021, 11:12 AM

    Roderic O’Gorman … immediate action
    …..

    Sentence does not compute

    83
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    Mute Arch Angel
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    Feb 4th 2021, 3:17 PM

    @Life in no motion: Leo must be the only one in the country surprised by this decision, just not surprised enough to do anything about it, obviously. Now had there been any soundbites in it, some potential for interviews in the Sunday mags… well, who knows?

    29
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    Mute leartius
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    Feb 4th 2021, 1:21 PM

    First the tiny voices of illegitimate babies where silenced. Now those luckily enough to survive and brave enough to testify are being victimised again.
    We need a tribunal lead by international experts in war crimes. We need to know how these babies dies. was it starvation? Was it premediated murder?

    83
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    Mute Shaun Gallagher
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    Feb 4th 2021, 1:49 PM

    If only Leo was in a position that could have stopped this

    64
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    Mute Padraic O Sullivan
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    Feb 4th 2021, 12:39 PM

    Handy that Corporate Manslaughter isnt on the Statute books. Obviously by chance.

    53
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    Mute Dr. Gerard Rodgers
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    Feb 4th 2021, 8:55 AM

    I do understand deletion of audio re de-identification of person anonymity/confidentiality but I don’t get deletion of raw transcripts with appropriate de-identification

    47
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    Mute D. Memery
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    Feb 4th 2021, 11:57 AM

    @Dr. Gerard Rodgers: if I recall from a previous article there were no actual transcripts, the interviewers took contemporaneous notes and reviewed the recordings only if there was ambiguity in their notes or they needed to check something mentioned but which they didn’t note at the time. This might be why they were deleted, they were never intended to be part of the evidence, and when evidential statements are taken it is transcribed live so to speak, read back to the witness and signed. That latter process appears not to have occurred, suggesting thr recordings were done in a research context

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    Mute Pauline Fedigan
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    Feb 4th 2021, 2:05 PM

    I say he surprised alright?

    37
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    Mute Richard Casey
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    Feb 4th 2021, 2:08 PM

    The minister for children and youth affairs is clearly from another planet.

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    Mute John Smith
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    Feb 4th 2021, 2:03 PM

    Surprised but not shocked

    32
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    Mute Ally Mc Culladgh
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    Feb 4th 2021, 11:07 AM

    Anyone that wants their testimony kept and to serve as a reminder to society of the atrocities that occured should be allowed to do so.

    Anyone that doesn’t and wants to remain anonymous should have their testimony destroyed.

    32
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    Mute Darren Carroll
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    Feb 4th 2021, 4:00 PM

    Quite surprised???? Sick and outraged would be the reaction from a non narcissist

    24
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