Sign in. It’s quick, free and it’s up to you.
An account is an optional way to support the work we do. Find out more.
MY FAMILY IS like a lot of other Irish families who lost loved ones in World War One.
Some 49,000 Irish soldiers died in the Great War and my great grandfather was one of them, but it is only in recent years that they have got the recognition they deserve.
Patrick Carroll was born in Kill of the Grange, Dún Laoghaire (Kingstown at the time) in Dublin 1883.
He married Mary Carroll, my great grandmother, and set up home in Lower Mounttown Cottages in Dún Laoghaire, where they had five children, Patsy, Peter, Molly, ‘Nan’ (Anne) and my grandmother, Elizabeth.
Irishmen
With the breakout of World War One in 1914, over 140,000 Irishmen enlisted to fight for many different reasons. My great grandfather was a 32-year-old Catholic man who needed money to support his wife and five children.
On 7 November 1915, he enlisted with the British Army in Athlone.
My grandmother, the youngest in the family, was just three-years-old when he left for war.
He was assigned to the 42nd Trench Mortar Battery of the Royal Field Artillery Z.
Little is known about his time away, but his unit was attached to 42nd (East Lancashire) Division and was one of the three medium trench mortar batteries of the Royal Field Artillery attached to that division.
In the trenches
Patrick was a ‘gunner’ in the Trench Mortar Battery. This was a whole new form of artillery developed to meet the unusual conditions of war on the Western Front.
The “gunner” rank of soldiers operated in the artillery, usually handling weapons such as the Newton 6 inch Mortar. Their role was to provide close support to other arms in combat or to attack targets. He was part of the largest arm of the British Army’s artillery and deployed close to the front line.
The story goes that my great grandfather fought in some of World War One’s most famous battles. His division took part in Gallipoli until they were evacuated in January 1916, but it is unclear whether he took part in this campaign.
His records state that he fought in the Western Front in France. He fought in the Battle of the Somme in battles known as Battle of Delville Wood and the Battle of Flers-Courcelette in 1916.
Over 2,000 men were killed in the Battle of Delville.
Menin Road, FranceSource: WikicommonsBattle of Menin Road Ridge
It is also believed he fought in the Battle of Scarpe before fighting in the Third Battle of Ypres, where it is believed he was killed during the Battle of Menin Road Ridge.
On 14 September, his division edged toward the area of Winnipeg, but that evening there was a German counter-attack.
Patrick was killed that day from wounds he received in action. He was just 34 years old.
He was one of 500 men from the Dún Laoghaire area alone that were killed in World War One.
For his service, Patrick was awarded three medals, including the Victory Medal and the British War Medal.
Patrick Carroll's medal cardSource: lijssenthoek.beThe Victory Medal was awarded to all who received the 1914-1915 Star and often times to those who were awarded the British War Medal, which was automatically awarded in the event of death in active service.
Family history
My mother is a fanatic about old photographs and documents. We have boxes full of them at home. As a child, I always loved looking through them, asking who the people were.
Long before any of these genealogy programmes came along, I was always fascinated by my family history. Not that it was particularly interesting, we never had kings or queens or interesting stories, just normal folk, who worked hard to look after their families.
Once when I was sick and off school, I decided to do a family tree (yes, I was a child that could not sit still) I gathered all the family photos and decided to call all my grand aunts to get the low down on my family.
My grand aunt Hannah, who has since passed, filled me in on a lot. It was when I was doing this project that I came across two old documents relating to my great grandfather Patrick.
Killed in action
The first was the letter informing his wife Mary that he had been killed in action. The other was a telegram informing her where her husband, who she had five children with, was buried in Belgium.
(Can't see the letter? Click here)
(Can't see the letter, click here)
Looking back, even at a young age, I knew these were special documents telling a sad part of my family history.
Today, however, I understand with even more depth, the sadness attached to these letters. Holding the letter that informed my great grandmother that her husband had been killed gives me chills.
To know that she held this piece of paper, that it was delivered in an envelope, either by post or messenger, and she tore open the envelope to read those words.
It is my painful duty to inform you that a report has been received from the War Office notifying the death of Patrick Carroll ... the report is to the effect that he died from wounds received in action.
Another sad fact is that no one has ever visited Patrick's grave in Belgium, although one day we would like to.
Researching into my great grandfather's time at war I came across the cemetery website where he is buried. To my surprise, they have a photo of his grave.
It surprised me how moving it was to see it. I never knew Patrick and I was never told much about him, but seeing his tombstone in a land far away from his humble beginnings in Dún Laoghaire, it did strike a chord with me.
Every town and village in Ireland has a story similar to mine and with this year, marking the hundredth anniversary of the start of World War I, it is only right that we remember these men - our grandfathers, great grandfathers and great grand uncles.
This article was first published in August 2014. Since the publication of this article, distant relatives in the UK have got in touch to tell me they went to visit Patrick's grave in Belgium a number of years ago. His name is marked on the monument at the entrance to the memorial.
A two minute silence will be held at 11.00am to mark Armistice Day.
To embed this post, copy the code below on your site
My great grand uncle Pt James Forsyth 15148 Royal Dublin Fusiliers was killed on the 7th May 1916. He too was from Kingstown (Dun Laoghaire). I walked the tench he was killed in and visited his grave in Bois Carre. His grave is 300 yards away from Rudyard Kipling’s son Jack, 2nd Battalion Irish Guards. My great grand uncle was was in the 1st Battalion Irish Guards as part of the BEF. He was shot outside Ypres and sent home. I have two other great grand uncles whom also served. We will never know the horrors.
A typo (too early in the morning). My great grand uncle shot outside of Ypres should have read “great grand father”. I would not be here if it wasn’t for that bullet. No doubt he would have been killed in action if it wasn’t for the fact he was sent home to the King George 5th hospital in Dublin.
Remember today all those valiant Irish soldiers that fought, and died in WWI.
Their memory in Irish history for far too long, besmirched and unwritten by the ignorant.
Whilst remembering the Irish who served in the British Army in WW1, let’s not forget the Irish who stayed at home to strike for Freedom & died.
@Malachy
Agreed. But on this particular day we are remembering the Irish dead of WWI.
There will be other days (and other treads) to show solemity and respect to those men you mention.
Be advised that this is respectful commentary, without any political inneundo or cheap point-scoring intentions Cllr.
*Solemnity*
Yes Cllr Quinn keep you cheap political comments to yourself.
SF/IRA hypocrisy should be reserved for rags like An Phoblacht.
One of my great uncles was a trawler fisherman, died when the vessel he was on struck a mine and blew up three weeks after Armistice day. Seldom is there anything said about the civilians who died during war. There were nearly as many men lost at sea as those buried on land…we should remember them to.
Tap,your political masters will turn up at the London cenotaph,heads bowed in respect meanwhile around the corner in the London High Court 18 million paid out so far for human rights violations carried out by members of the British army in Iraq.
These stories are amazing and I think it’s fantastic to see them all coming out now. These men were such heroes and it’s so heartbreaking to know that the ones who returned were treated like outcasts by many and the memories of the fallen were forgotten for so long.
Weren’t returning soldiers treated like cast off clothes in Britain as well. Never mind the widows who were put through every hoop.
When you consider how France lost over double what Britain did and nearly treble the war wounded, they don’t make the fuss and drama that some others do.
For them it was just another war, there is no lines about ending war and freedom of Europe etc.
It is interesting to see how some countries get on with it.
Ignore RyanS. A regular bigot on here.
And a chap who didn’t know that France was occupied!
Well balanced, he has a chip on both shoulders.
Not bigoted Will. I know countless English people that have the exact same view as I express, it would be more of inline with the wider European view than the pub jingoism that is creeping in other places.
ryan, grow up and try and stop being a total fool all your life you sad idiot.
Show a bit of respect.
I am showing them respect. I’m not sugar coating it or pretending that it was a heroic tragedy or anything but a senseless slaughter for no real reason rather than a large powers seeking leverage and getting caught up in a slaughter due to technology advancing ahead of strategy and policy.
Why should the narrow jingoistic narrative not go unchallenged.
It is challenged in Britain, France, Germany, Belgium etc etc. Why not here?
Seanie
Put a sock in it !
Go abroad and open your horizons and don’t stay with this anti british hubris
Too right Mark. This trainee idiot makes up stuff to suit him.
He knows loads of people (in many countries!) who agree with him – and frequently refers to the pub!!!!!
Anything remotely British is totally unacceptable. Soon he’ll be sounding off about our local RNLI.
DELETE ROYAL……
Seanie laughable that the British made it out to be a war about freedom and helping little Belgium etc. yet when the Irish people voted overwhelmingly for independence in the 1918 election their wishes were ignored and we had to go to war to be it. It would also take nearly 50 more years for all the other parts of the empire to gain their own independence. People should rightly remember the victims of this war but there was no glory in it, it was a fight between Kings, Kaisers and Tsars who sent their subjects in their millions to get slaughtered all in the name of empire. This war also created the conditions that directly led to WWII so by all means remember those who died but don’t make this war out to be something it was not.
Seanie, go away and stop showing yourself up, its embarrising to see you make such an ejiit of yourself every dsy
Its relevent for Every One
It really isn’t. Seriously, very few people care.
Rest in peace.
Seriously, most of us care….
Perhaps you could explain how it’s relevant?
Whenever you get a chance. No rush.
Several reasons tool,
1, it’s is important to learn from our history.
2, These people are direct descendants and are entitled to feel proud that their ancestors cared enough to die for what they believed in. Before you come with a lecture on the futility of the war, hindsight is 20/20 vision that they did not have at the time.
3, there was a stigma attached to these men and their families wrongly for way to long, It’s time they got to tell their story.
I’m sure people could add many other reasons to this list but I suspect at the end of the day you will hold your narrow view of history and the world we now live in
Not a very mature start to the discussion, son.
1. Sure, let’s look at all of our history in a fair and balanced way. A lot of Irish people in 1914 remembered the horrors of the Great Famine and saw the British Empire as a burden on the Irish People.
2. Nobody who died in WW1 died for any particular principle whatsoever. They were ordered to fight and die by eejits. There is no foundation to glorify their deaths. None whatsoever. This is not to belittle their lives, but they weren’t fighting for ‘something they believed in’.
3. When the British soldiers returned to Ireland the country was in the middle of the War of Independence that secured the establishment of the Irish Free State. I’m not surprised in the slightest that the integration of British troops back into their communities was difficult.
Like I said, you will hold your narrow view of history and the world we now live in.
Get over your emotional attachment to our history.
It is in the past, as the famine is etc.
Also nobody is “glorifying their deaths”, They are simply remembering their ancestors, as they are quite entitled to. You need to ask yourself why you think you have any business questioning this ????
tool
I can’t resist tool, you say “Sure, let’s look at all of our history in a fair and balanced way” and the you go on to look at it from an Irish perspective only. How is that in anyway balanced ?
@O’Toole.
Whatever about principles or the lack of principles, WWI culminated in WWII and if principles were not upheld in that particular disaster, the world would be in a very different place today for the worst.
( I would venture.)
@PaulAnthony, I completely agree.
The defeat of Nazi Germany was a heroic achievement.
Will DebbyShire claimed that WW1 soldiers fought against Nazis and ‘Stalinists’, which is ridiculous on a number of levels, not least of which is that the ‘Stalinists’ were largely responsible for the defeat of Germany with their heroic sacrifice on the Eastern Front.
Should we celebrate these ‘Stalinists’ along with the fallen British dead?
Whether the cause was real or not is immaterial. They believed they were fighting for small nations, they believed it was a ‘war to end all wars’ and most of the Irish believed they were helping to secure Home Rule. And for every ‘volunteer’ that took part in the fight against British rule, 16 Irishmen fought in the trenches.
Do not denigrate their bravery. Do not try to make a comparison between those who fought for Irish Independence and those who fought in the war. Many were the same men.
I don’t believe you have ever a vague understanding of what ‘fair and balanced’ mean.
Because if you’ve sense of where uou came from & what your relations believed in then you have ABSOLUTLY MO ROGHT TO COMMENT ….. HERE ENDETH THE LESSON
Coilin 1.In the region of 50,000 Irish were butchered in a crazy war carried out by inbred relations that ruled Europe in an attempt to increase their respective kingdoms and increase economic and political power.
2.It also set the seeds for world war 2 the worst conflict in human history.
3.However if we look into the Irish participation especially in the south, many joined up on the promise of Home Rule, and were Irish patriots.
4. If 50,000 died, more were injured physically and mentally surely in the region of 200,000 – 250,000 must have being involved (guess work) when these men returned from this horrible war they were treated as outcasts, found it difficult to get work and were treated horribly by the public and state. These were were men who a few years earlier were fighting for home rule and cheered to war by the majority of the Irish public.
5.They could not tell their stories and were shunned by the public and state and generally treated with distane for close to 100 years which was scandalous.
The war was crazy in the destruction, and the future consequences it would store up for the second world war. However to day is about remembering those who were the main victims, the soldiers and their family’s who suffered during the war followed by more suffering inflicted by an Irish public after the war. Remember the most effective Irish military individual in the war of independence Tom Barry fought for the British in the first world war, it is very rarely stated as as the narrative does not sit comfortably with Irish Republicans.
Its relevant because people like him ensured the right for people like you to come on here and freely air your views, no matter how misguided they may be.
My great-grandfather, James Kavanagh, also lived on Lower Mounttown Road in Dún Laoghaire (or Kingstown, as it was then). He was killed on 8 June 1915 and is buried in Hazebrouck, northern France. My great-grandmother had been widowed once already, and left with three daughters. She and James had four more (including my grandmother), so when he died, at the relatively old age of 42, she was left to raise seven girls by herself. Reading about Patrick Carroll, that means two men living with a couple of hundred metres of each between them left 12 children fatherless. The death toll is not the only thing we should remember, but also the courageous and stoic mothers who somehow managed to pick up the pieces and rear their families alone.
That’s really interesting Philip. Perhaps they knew each other. You’re right, the women who picked up the family and carried on should also be remembered.
The Irishmen who went too war went because of nessesity not because of politics.
That makes them mercenaries, even more inglorious.
Utter nonsense.
If a relative of mine had joined the forces of a nation with such a malevolent history in my country to fight an imperialist war built on jingoistic rhetoric I wouldn’t be shouting about it. Luckily my grandfather fought with the good guys in Tipperary instead of taking the King’s shilling. I realise that it very much in vogue recently to fete the men who turned their backs on the Irish struggle for independence and swallowed Redmond’s treachery but I shall never be convinced.
All equally valid strands that go to make up the Irish People and our identity.
What about those of us who are not Irish?
I’m sure you carry your Nation’s flag with pride.
No Toole – I don’t carry any flag. I am a citizen of the world – and don’t live in the past, like so many here. I am a tax paying agnostic who contributes to whatever society I live in – from time to time.
But, perhaps most of all, I am grateful for the efforts of the many who fought against the Nazis and the Stalinists. However, I am sad that these efforts are either misrepresented or forgotten.
Will, there is a debate to be had about the rights and wrongs of the war and that gets good voice in Britain. This piece is about sanitising the role of Irishmen’s participation in that war.
Whatever.
Just on a point of information. None of the soldiers who died in the First World War fought against Nazis and Stalinists.
Clearly you are not in a position at the moment to have a rational discussion, so I’m going to leave it there. Best of luck.
‘point of information’
who ever typed that they did….
Ok. Could you explain how the soldiers who died in WW1 were fighting Nazis and Stalinists.
Interesting theory.
Will never said they were! Are you unable to read?
Will what are you talking about, fighting the Stalinists and the Nazis??? You do realise there was no such thing as either during this war and the conditions at this wars need actually let to the Nazis coming to power. The Nazis and Stalinists actually fought each other during WWII and in fighting each other were responsible for 70% of all deaths in that war, no allies ever fought Stalinists for your knowledge. Clearly history is not your strong point!
Mustard – are you unable to read, as well as Toole?
NOBODY, in this thread, typed that the Nazis and/or Stalinists were involved in WW1.
Sober up m8!
Fran that makes you such a man……………….
Ahhhh Tom, the old ad hominem approach. So new, so original.
Poor Tom Kenny. All he has is insults.
@Glen Hoddle (not the old English football manager?), Will DerbyShire did claim that the WW1 soldiers dies fighting Nazis and Stalinists.
A lot of English people on this thread telling Irish people to glorify the deaths of British soldiers. Very odd.
Well Fran you were congratulating yourself on what you would do if blah blah blah, so my comment is directed at you.
Tool, well it’s just not worth it in your case :(
Toole. Why lie? I did not type that.
Can you read? I made no connection to WW2.
You did…
And Toole. Try and get my name right – as you can’t seem to get anything else right. And are unable to understand/read simple posts.
And, in misreading my name, you assume I’m from England!
Go to a good Home for the Bewildered….
*WW1
I was expecting expressing a point of view Tom. You on the other hand were making a personal attack.
@Will DerbyShire. You get my name right and I’ll make more of an effort with yours. Until then….
Franman blowing your trumpet about what you would or wouldn’t do if you had realitives that fought in ww1 is not expressing an opinion, it’s waffle, worse it’s disrespectful waffle, the same as your buddy Oh Tool
What is disrespectful Tom is the nation being symbolized by a president acting like Jack McGowran in the Quiet Man, as Ignatius Feeney, a gillie man, seeking to ingratiate himself and the country to those who regard themselves as moral elites.
FranMan my relative fought with Collins in the GPO and was with him in the War of Independence but unlike you and your narrow bigoted outlook I look on WW1 Irish soldiers and the ones who fought at home as equally brave snd should be equally remembered! grow up!
My grand uncle, Lance Corporal Partick O’ Brien from Drogheda (Leinster Regiment, 2nd Battalion, Service Number 10217), was killed in action on 31st July 1917, during the Battle of Passchendaele (aka 3rd Battle of Ypres).
My great grandfather fought in and survived the 1st World War
same here many did not come home
The First World War began within living memory of the Great Famine, and I find it entirely understandable that there were mixed feelings about those who fought for the British Empire.
This is only really relevant to proto-Unionists who hark after the dead empire. Let these men rest in peace and stop abusing their memory for you own ends.
The Government of Ireland Act granting Home Rule to Ireland was passed on 18 September 1914. But as Britain and Ireland had already been at war with Germany since 4th August 1914, the implementation of the Act was suspended. Home Rule had already been won peacefully and democratically by the Irish Parliamentary Party. Over 250,000 Irishmen joined the British, Australian, Canadian and other Allied armies, including three of my uncles. 0ver 50,000 Irish died, including two of my uncles. The Easter Rising was not authorised by the leadership of the Irish Volunteers, had no democratic mandate, was futile, and achieved nothing but death and destruction in central Dublin including the loss of civilian lives. But the execution of the leaders, the carnage on the Somme and the proposal to introduce conscription resulted in a transfer of allegiance from the Irish Parliamentary Party to Sinn Fein and Sinn Fein winning 73 out of 105 Irish seats in the December 1918 general election.
The Sinn Fein MP’s refused to take their seats in the UK Parliament and those that were not in jail met in the Dublin Mansion House on 21 January 1910 to constitute the First Dail. On the same day two Irish policemen were killed at Solaheadbeg, in County Tipperary by Irish Volunteers in an action that was not authorised by either the leadership of Sinn Fein or the Irish Volunteers. This led to repressive measures by the British Government, and to a war which did not end until the truce of July 1921.
it terrible that all these people died but it was basically poor people dying for rich peoples benefir
Or perhaps Cllr. Malachy Quinn we could remember both. All those men who fought, at home and in the war, were brave men who risked their lives for their personal reasons, be it for their family or their country or both. Perhaps we can also remember and respect the men who came home from the war, often mentally and physically shaken, only to enter into more war in the Irish Civil War – most of whom fought as Irishmen against their former comrades in the British Army.
Every Irishman who has suffered due to war deserves respect. We should not pick and choose.
its terrible that all these people died,
poor people dying to benefit rich people
Toole. Have the decency to reread Will’s post and apologize for your error. You will see that he made no mention of WW1.
Neither am I from England …..
My maternal great grandfather was killed at exactly the same time as his two brothers as some of Lowther’s Lambs. Another brother did survive. My paternal grandfather was shot twice in separate battles near Mons and survived. He died at the age of 69 after a bullet fragment still lodged in his heart moved and killed him. They were just men of their time and we have no idea of what their lives were like and what drove their decisions, if they actually had a say in them. Many people now don’t know they’re even born.
@Patrick J. O’Rourke. I like your comment;—”They were just men of their time and we have no idea of what their lives were like and what drove their decisions, if they actually had a say in them—”. Very moving.
Salute to fighting men.
RIP
In spite of the highjacking of this article I still feel like mentioning my great grand uncle Private Christopher Barry of the 2nd Battalion Royal Munsters who died on the 9th of May 1915 during the battle of Aubers Ridge. He was one of those involved in the absolution by Fr Gleeson that was immortalised in the war painting “The last General Absolution of the Munsters at Rue du Bois”
He died rescuing his commanding officer Captain Maunsell who was trapped in no mans land. He received several bullet wounds and died later in the day.
There is also a lovely letter that was sent back to his mother by Father Gleeson that is on show in the Museum in Cork. It’s great to be able to visit to look at his stuff on display including his medals.
He was involved in rearguard action at Etreux on 27 August 1914, Zillebeke on 12th Nov during the first battle of Ypres and the battle of Givenchy on 22nd Nov 1914. He received a Distinguished Conduct Medal for his bravery at Givenchy.
My grand father fought in WW2 but thankfully survived. He was a lovely man. Like most people I have relatives that were involved in the struggle for independence and some that fought in the world wars. Up until recently enough only those involved in the independence war were openly mentioned and celebrated. Thankfully in this day and age we can speak about those long forgotten or only mentioned behind closed doors as if in shame. So please just be respectful and let families remember those that died. It doesn’t matter their reasons for joining up but we can at least on this day acknowledge their sacrifices.
My great grand uncle Regimental Seargeant Major Patrick Kearney, 12th London Regiment was awarded the Military Cross for his complete disregard for his own personal safety in setting an example of bravery during the second battle of Ypres in April and May 2015. He was severely wounded by shrapnel but after a period of convalescence he returned to the front. Luckily he survived and returned to Wicklow in 1919.
Toole – another Irish person unable to apologize. But with the usual ability to moan and criticise.
For some bizarre reason, this person – after rereading Will’s earlier post (which didn’t mention WW1) – can’t just type, sorry.
Sorry I got it wrong. Instead- continues to repeat/retype it.
He/she should visit the vet……
Reading lessons after that (vet).
Then the carpenter – to get the chips off your shoulders.
Goodbye you troubled human. Hormones – or classlack?
Above comment @Will Derbyshire.
*Derbylight
My great great grandfather was a cook on-board a merchant navy ship that sailed out of Waterford and was torpedoed. He was killed. The government at the time tried to claim the ship sank due to bad weather to avoid paying his wife a widow’s pension ( or so the stories we’ve been told goes) but the families of those killed fought the decision and eventually they were recognised as having been killed by their ship being torpedoed.
The british army looked after the soldier well when they returned home ,,did I not read lately that the Irish army are turfing out some soldier from their homes ? Or am I wrong about that
Don’t forget the Black and Tans or the British army on the Streets of Dublin killing people and making out they were the IRA at the same time.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/tv-and-radio-reviews/11062437/Who-Do-You-Think-You-Are-Brendan-OCarroll-review-revealing.html
Wear a poppy for… http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/the-torture-centre-northern-ireland-s-hooded-men-1.2296152
The CIA were taught everything about torture from the British army…
Wear a poppy to remind you of the Dublin Monaghan bombings???
may he rest in peace and hopefully the person who did it was brought to justice and charged accordingly…….
I thought he fought in the war then went on to play for arsenal
have your say