@Podge: plus it increases in value month on month as the latest figures show

@Donnie Brasco: nobody is paying the landlord’s mortgage other than them. Rent is for a service you get which includes white goods, maintenance on the property etc… It is a heavily taxed income and unless there is a profit it won’t be provided. As landlords are leaving the market it means less rentals meaning higher rents. Before you say the house is then privately bought so it helps housing, occupancy rate drops on privately owner so more people have less to rent. Landlords are needed whether you like it or not

@Podge: it is standard for rent to be above a mortgage and when it is not is when there is an oversupply of rentals.

@Geoff Bateman: true but even if it didn’t it wouldn’t be so bad. If I bought and average house valued at €320,000 and had to pay €200 a month towards the mortgage while the rent covers the rest I’d only be paying €72,000 over a 30 year mortgage (disregarding loan to value discounts, inflation adjusted, etc). Even if I sold the house for €250,000 (again inflation adjusted), I’d still be making €178,000. After that I could either cash out or continue increasing my profits as after tax rent is now pure profit (once property maintenance costs are factored in). As long as you don’t get bad tenants it’s very easy money as all you have to do is make the occasional call to a tradesman to fix the odd appliance or dish out a few hundred for a new washing machine.

@Craic_a_tower: sorry but that’s a very entitled view of investment. The profit should be in the sale of the property or the continued collection of rent once the mortgage is cleared. What you’re looking for is for people to be able to get a mortgage from the bank for a large assest, for someone else to service the cost of that loan and provide you with extra profit immediately, and then for you to profit again from the sale of the property. If you’re profiting at every step of the way with no risk (bad tenants excluded) where is the cost of the investment to the landlord?

@Podge: then why don’t you do it if it so easy? What happened during the last crash? Don’t recall the government helping the landlords who lost money. It is all well and good to say once you don’t get a bad tenant but if you do you have to still pay the mortgage. Risk has costs and you seem to think there is no risk. Ever had to deal with a dead tenant or couple who are assaulting each other. You are clueless

@Podge: it may seem entitled to you but that is how the market works. If it was another investment the mortgage would be allowed as an expense but not on rentals. It is the tax system that makes rent cost so much. Do you expect a shop to sell products cheaper because they own the shop property? Basically you are saying landlords should operate at a loss for decades and determine their profit while not allowing for any losses. Businesses don’t operate that way so why should landlords? It is pretty entitled to expect private citizens to fund other private citizens homes

@Craic_a_tower: I hope to someday. In the process of buying my own house at the moment but hopefully in a number of years I’ll be in a position to buy another property as an investment. Of course there’s risks involved with bad tenants and I’m all for landlord’s rights in dealing with them. In terms of the last crash that’s market risk which you should factor in to your investment and taxpayer money shouldn’t be used to mitigate that risk. If you can’t afford to cover the mortgage yourself if something happens you’re over-leveraged and that’s a risky investment strategy. And those who were able to absorb the bust have come out the other side in a great position. If you get good tenants and don’t over-leverage yourself you get an asset worth hundreds of thousands for very little work.

@Craic_a_tower: a shop sells goods which are then owned by the purchaser, rent is just that – rent. If you rented a house but the renter owned it after a period that’s a totally different scenario. Imagine if cars appreciated in value or at least stayed the same regardless of age and use. Imagine I got a loan from a bank to buy a car. Now imagine I leased that car to you and wanted that lease cost to cover what I owed the bank plus a tasty profit for myself. And after all that I still own the car which has increased in value which I then sell. I’ve made money throughout the lease period and again when I sold the car. And what did it actually cost me except having to make the odd phone call, pay for a minor repair, or fill out a form here or there?

@Podge: so you want landlords to factor in risk and also complain that they do this! You keep the rent as high as you can do deal with all the risk. Rents could drop. There were many landlords in negative equity and forced to increase their contributions to the mortgages on these properties with many also dealing with job losses. They did that for years while taxes and charges were added to rental income. Some stuck it out subsiding tenants and when the market rose they increased rent to recoup those costs. Then the government came in capping rents punishing those for not increasing their rent.

@Podge: you assume houses always appreciate

@Craic_a_tower: why are you acting like if a profit isn’t made on rental income there’s no profit involved? You’re ignoring the huge asset that is the property itself which sometimes drops in value but only for a few years (which is why lots of property owners are cashing out now). In my above example where I buy a house for €320,000 with a 30 year mortgage which I contribute €200 per month to. If I sell the house after 30 years and all it’s done is maintain it’s value in line with inflation (which based on long term trends is very unlikely) then I’ve made €248,000. Subtract cost of property maintenance and fixing the odd appliance and I bet it’s still a very good return considering the hours of work put in.

@Podge: never said there was no profit so I can’t be making the claim you made. You may think 30 years is fine to wait for a return but not many businesses work that way. It also relies on 30 years of stability for the landlord where they at any moment need to be able to pay the full mortgage as you said yourself. Risk costs money. To return to the shop would you expect a shop to run at a loss on the grounds they would own the property the shop is in some 30 years later? The business is renting providing a service and requires a huge initial investment. You have no idea of how much work it is to be a landlord so should never become one. As most landlords see it as a long term investment for a pension the fact people are selling up shows it is not easy. If it was more would enter

@Craic_a_tower: well a lot of people use property as a pension pot so for that use case 30 years is fine. But if you want profits sooner you can sell the property on a shorter time frame which is what a lot of people do. People are selling up now not because it’s hard to be a landlord but because it’s a great time to sell and it’s now hard to get into as you’ve mentioned. If the person running a shop is trying to make a quicker return they should lease and sell goods. If they’re trying to obtain an asset in the hundreds of thousands/millions and flip it for a profit then they should be prepared to take a loss to obtain the greater long term goal. You’re acting like property should be a good short and long term investment. It shouldn’t be both of those things.

@Craic_a_tower: what ROI do you think landlords should make on rental income after 30 years in the market? So the moment the mortgage is paid off how much surplus income should the landlord have generated (not taking into account the asset which they now own)?

@Podge: none of your business is how much they make. You don’t restrict profits on other businesses so why is this different. Say they make 24k which they get less than 12k of. It isn’t a lot of money and you can’t live on it comfortably

@Craic_a_tower: I’m not asking you what landlords make, I’m asking you what you think they SHOULD make. You shouldn’t be able to get a mortgage from the bank, buy a single property, and then kick back and live comfortably for the rest of your days. Being a landlord on a single property isn’t a full time job and shouldn’t be paid as such. If you want to live comfortably while managing rental properties you should becoming a managing agent, which is a full time job. In your above example you’re saying rent that covers the mortgage plus €66 extra per month isn’t good enough. So I’ll ask again – how much extra SHOULD be added on top of mortgage costs to pre tax rent to make it attractive?

@Craic_a_tower: I actually can’t wrap my head around your thinking. I’m no hardcore lefty and like I said I think landlord rights should be strengthened but my God the level of entitlement some people have is beyond belief. The idea that I should be able to buy a single property with borrowed money and have someone else pay that money back and pay me for the privilege so I can kick back and “live comfortably” while doing nothing else to earn a living other than managing that single property is beyond belief. I’m against the entitlement of someone else paying for your house but it works both ways, at the renter level and the landlord level. And before you say it the landlord isn’t subsidising the renters home because at the end of the day it’s never the renter’s property.

@Podge: the reason you don’t understand is because you already have a view in your mind of how YOU THINK it works or should work. It doesn’t work as you think and involves a lot more risk and costs than you are considering. A person has a choice where to invest their money and due to the risks the return from a rental property is not worth it for many so they don’t become landlords. People who decided to take that risk have been treated badly by the government which increased charge, taxes, legislation and threats to make it worse. Landlords don’t accept these new risks and are investing elsewhere. Here you are telling a landlord that they should accept it and shut up. Landlords don’t have to listen to you and for all your beliefs of how good it is then more people would stay.

@Craic_a_tower: if you’re not going to answer any of my questions fair enough, there’s not much point in me asking any more. I’m all for landlords getting returns on investment. I just don’t think they should be able to live off the rental income of a single property as if they’re some wolf of wallstreet investor. People put money into property in Ireland because other options aren’t as attractive. And they’re selling up now in large part because it’s an amazing sellers market. And you clearly already have a view in your mind about how it should work when you make statements like people should be able to live comfortably on the excess rent from a single property they’ve a mortgage on. Ideas like that are so economically unworkable I don’t even know where to begin.

@Podge: again you are claiming I made a statement I didn’t. I gave you the answer you just don’t like it. You also claim you know why landlords are leaving the market. Here is a landlord telling you they are leaving the market due to government interference not because it is a good price to sell at. Everyone I know is leaving because of that and cutting their long term investment plans. You want to believe something else and say you don’t understand my thinking. The reality is you are rejecting what I am saying so don’t want to understand. Once you have a property you will see how much work it is and that is with you caring about it. Tenants do not treat properties as if they care about it.

@Craic_a_tower: well you’re not giving me straight answers. I asked what you need to make it worth while and you won’t answer but say current amounts aren’t enough to live comfortably on. And I’m saying they shouldn’t be. Being a landlord on one property isn’t a full time job. I’m not sorry the government are taxing you on rental income as I get taxed at the same rate for a job that I can argue requires a lot more effort than being a landlord. And before you say it people don’t become landlords more because they can’t afford to. Every property I’ve lived in I’ve left cleaner than when I arrived, the landlord just collected the money from me.

@Craic_a_tower: and you might say people are leaving because they’re tired of government regulation but it’s a simple calculation. If you’re better of selling than staying a landlord you’ll sell. I wish we had more landlords but if the market was terrible to sell in but rents were high you and your friends would be staying put.

@Craic_a_tower: and FYI you can get a management company if you don’t want to do any of the work.

@Podge: I know the people and why they are leaving. I am one of these people. Try to listen, you don’t understand the market and the pressures. The fact you suggest a letting agent illustrates this perfectly. You keep thinking it is an easy number as landlords leave the market and nobody replaces them. Price have been high before and we didn’t lose the rental property like this. Why is it different now?

@Craic_a_tower: like I said I don’t agree with lack of landlord rights over bad tenants or rent freezes and all that. All I’m saying is returns should be reasonable and taxed as income. You’re not addressing any of my points so I’m going to leave it here. Have a good one.

@Dean: nope they pay for a service for 30 years. You know many landlords develop the property to be rented out.