We need your help now
Support from readers like you keeps The Journal open.
You are visiting us because we have something you value. Independent, unbiased news that tells the truth. Advertising revenue goes some way to support our mission, but this year it has not been enough.
If you've seen value in our reporting, please contribute what you can, so we can continue to produce accurate and meaningful journalism. For everyone who needs it.
Sign in. It’s quick, free and it’s up to you.
An account is an optional way to support the work we do. Find out more.
By continuing, you are indicating that you accept our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy.
PRIESTS HEARING CONFESSION will not be excused from new laws making it illegal not to pass on allegations of child abuse, the government has confirmed.
The legislation drawn up in the wake of the Cloyne report, which revealed widespread cover-ups of child abuse allegations within the Catholic hierarchy, will make it mandatory for all such allegations to be reported to gardaí. Suggestions that the new laws would break the confessional seal have sparked an angry reaction among some clerics – with Cardinal Seán Brady saying it “undermines [...] the right of every Catholic to freedom of religion”.
However, a spokesperson for the Department of Justice today told TheJournal.ie that mandatory reporting “will apply regardless of any internal rules of any religious grouping”. Saying that the “central focus” of the law was child protection, the spokesperson said a culture of not reporting in the past had led to sexual predators believing they have “impunity” in preying on children.
There was some confusion over the planned legal changes after justice minister Alan Shatter told the Irish Times yesterday that confession would not be mentioned in the legislation. However, the Department of Justice spokesperson today confirmed that although the confessional seal would not be picked out by name, it would still be covered by the law.
Minister Shatter told the paper that the controversy over the confessional seal was a “bogus issue”. It’s understood the legislation is currently with the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality, and the government is hoping to bring it to the Dáil by the end of October.
To embed this post, copy the code below on your site
So confess to the police and then to the church. No person or institution should be above the law. Furthermore if one repents then that should also mean taking responsibility for ones crimes otherwise how can it be true repentance.
Well said. When people who know nothing about the catholic religion shut up and stop trying to be theologians of a religion they know nothing about, some progress can be made. In order to get absolution, the penitent has to ammend his life. It’s not a case of eg committing murder, going to confession and it’s all Ok, the penitent has to hand himself in to the authorities to get absolution.
I think this law is silly – how on earth is it going to be enforced?? There’s two people having a private conversation?
Agreed. Sadly, some theologically minded people will get around that saying that it’s not for man to punish us for our sins, but God. Obviously this rubbish, but it’s what the child abusers tell themselves. (Where is that part of the Bible where Jesus says to give to Caesar what is Caesar’s? I’m pretty sure Jesus believed in abiding by the Earthly law as well as Biblical.)
Believing in a God should be a crime itself. It’s at least a mental disability.
It’s intolerant people such as yourself that have the disability.
Snap out of it, Inda.
“Intolerant” – Give me a break. I don’t tolerate child rapists and I don’t tolerate those who defend and help them.
“Oh we’re not all like that” – yes you f**king are because it is one church and it has one leader and it has one set of rules. You’re either in or your out. You make your choice so you’re either in with the bigots, misogynists, homophobes and rapists or you’re not. It’s not a pick ‘n mix.
And excuse me for having a strong opinion but unlike others in this country I actually discussed, read and thought a lot about the catholic religion and my catholic upbringing. I’m glad to say I’m reformed.
Inda. I’m a catholic, so in your strange world that makes me as good as a child abuser? I, like most Catholics hope there is a special little hot place reserved for the child abusers and the people that protect them. Also I would love to see radical change to ensure that abuses that happened never happen again but to think that everybody that believes in god is no better than a child abuser is ignorance of the highest order. I don’t know at all but if your father believes in god would tell him he is no better than child abuser???
@Diego – I may have hyperbolised to make a point but I clearly know that not every catholic is a child rapist and I specifically didn’t say you were a child abuser. I said it was tolerated. I have a lot of faith in people and no faith in organised religion.
My point is simple. If you are a ROMAN CATHOLIC then understand that this means you have signed up to follow all the rules within that religion. Those rules come from Rome. People LIKE to pick and choose parts of a religion to suit what they know is proper and good, but in reality you CANNOT do that – it ain’t how it works.
Ignoring one part and emphasising another is just a different religion. So as a ROMAN CATHOLIC you cannot put to the side and treat as a separate entity these rapist priests, those who defend them, those who hide the truth and those in Rome who seem to care so little that they barely acknowledge the major problems. The problems have been around for decades, maybe centuries. If you don’t like it then either change your religion to something purer or act to change Catholicism. I abhor the defence of a religion that is absolutely and visibly rotten to the core and with values that have no place in a modern and diverse world.
On another point, believing in God is not restricted to Catholicism. There are 1000′s of religions in the world, many of which have never had the problems that we are talking about here. I don’t say that to say other religions are better. I say it because in terms of progression and modernisation you have to wonder where Catholicism is in the list. Perhaps people who DO believe in God should find the religion that suits THEIR beliefs rather than the religion that has been trust upon them by consequence of where they were born or what they’ve been indoctrinated into before they were able to think.
@Torrentum Cedron – Make an actual point, dude.
All fair points inda but the only thing that is going to change the church and oust the sicko’s is government policy, us little people will never make any difference. To address another point you make, I’m born and brought up catholic and I try to live my life as a good human being/catholic. Should I change my religion because of the people at the top that govern it made a bollix of it any more than I should change my nationality in the present times?
@diego – Yes you should change your religion. That’s the crux of all faiths really. If you don’t agree or have faith in the religion you are currently in find the one that you do. Perhaps there are other Christian faiths that are more aligned to your beliefs in being a good person. No you shouldn’t change your nationality on that basis because you can at least vote for new leaders and also you have to have at least one nationality. You don’t have to have a religion.
It simple…………Do we protect the child or the pedophile?
Not that simple. Explain how this confession law is to be enforced?
Great to see that we now have a Government with enough back bone to stand up to the Catholic Church, this law is not “Anti Catholic”, it’s simply “Pro-Child Protection”.
And people should cop themselves on, confession is nothing but a method of getting Catholics into the “Guilt Cycle”, when they do something sinful like “having impure thoughts” (which is perfectly natural by the way), the only way they can repent their sins and feel good about themselves again, is to go to confession, then they go off and sin again and guess where they have to go to rid their guilt? Yep that’s right, straight back to the confession box, it’s nothing but a horrible guilt trap!! I’d love to know how many people have felt guilty about having sex before marriage with someone they love, when the priest they confess to was off raping innocent children 30 mins beforehand.
That’s a very warped view of Confession, Brian. Do you think Catholics go around feeling guilty all the time? A lot of people find Confession a great help- why do you think so many people love those shows where they discuss their life and their problems and counsellors have never been more popular. I’m not saying that’s the main purpose of Confession, but it’s not all centred on sexual morals or the vile deeds of paedophiles who probably never cross the door of a confessional anyway. It’s about trying to lead a better life and if you’re just marching in and out to salve a guilty conscience with no intention of change, then there’s no point in going.
Maria, ” paedophiles who probably never cross the door of a confessional anyway” If only that were the case, the trouble is, the paedophiles are not only crossing the door of the confessional they are sitting in it, taking the confessions of other paedophiles and then instead of informing the police they informed their bishop or cardinal who then moved the offending paedophile to another parish where they could continue their vile abusing unhindered until the next time they availed themselves of the confessional looking for a new start in another parish! Perfectly illustrates the reason why mandatory reporting must apply to ALL, it is precisely because the catholic clergy used this so called sacrament to avoid detection that it must not be exempted.
Believe that and you would believe anything
"Right to the Freedom of Religion…" all personal rights come with the stipulation that if they infringe on the rights of another person (such as the right not to be raped) then said right becomes redundant. Especially when the right is attached something so specious as RELIGION.
You stole that line from ‘Law & Order SVU’
…who in turn stole it from Oliver Wendell Holmes.
Though his version was better: “The right to swing my fist ends where the other man’s nose begins.”
Nice original thinking. Educated by SVU. Ha.
So the religious are arguing that they should be exempt from certain civil laws, that affect laws, because of their beliefs? Does this apply to Islam and domestic violence laws as well, or is it only for Catholics that we make exceptions?
P.
confession is a sacrament, it is important to keep all confessions confidential for the catholic community. Child abuse is totally wrong and inexcusable , personally i feel no one will repent for this crime in Ireland . If it is important for the person to repent for abusing a child , they will do it in another country. What next Enda Kenny i stole a bag of sweets when i was 7 , im not confessing in case i get done for theft .
what are you even talking about
Forgive me if I don’t shed a tear for child abusers not being able to assuage their conscience in confession.
Who decided it was a "sacrament"?
What’s a sacrement?
Hope you ‘repented’ for stealing that bag of sweets last week then Keyese! You really are away with the fairies, sacrament my arse, it’s a way to make catholics feel good about themselves by saying a few hail mary’s and doing what the catholic church does best, absolving themselves of any wrong doing. Catholic confession is meaningless outside the catholic church, in the real world a confession to a crime means you are admitting to that crime and you should expect to face the full force of the law and face up to the consequences and whatever punishment to which you are sentenced unlike the make believe world of catholicism where some beardy sky fairy ‘forgives’ you and makes it alright to continue raping and buggering children till the next “bless me father’ sham! The law applies to all citizens and catholics are no exception! Shame those sweets weren’t gobstoppers!
Cags, the exact definition of a sacrament is that it is “an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace.” We readily can see that there are three distinct ideas contained in that short definition:
Outward sign
Instituted by Christ
To give grace.
This is the Catholic belief and, I know, I know… some of you think it’s a fairy tale, but this is what Catholics believe and just giving the definition according to what Catholics believe.
If the Church had done the right thing from day one, the Church would not be in this position, Keyese.
What happens if a kid tells a priest in confession that he/she is being abused, Keyese? It’s OK for the priest to wash his hands of it becuase the child told him in the confessional. It’s just a case of “tell your mammy” and that’s it? There are intrinsic parts of other religions that are not supported by Irish law – Mormon polygamy, for instance. Why should Catholics get such a crucial exemption?
@Maria. Thanks for the definiation – I honestly never knew it. One thing though: wasn’t confession introduced in the middle ages? On that basis, confession doesn’t seem to fit the definition. Christ encouraged repentence (and reparation?) but not confession, as such. Even so, it remains an sacrament/aspect of just one religion in a pluralist society. .Going to confession but not handing yourself over to the Gardaí makes the purported repentence ring very hollow. It’s about salving one’s own guilt with little care shown for the victim.
Actually, in the early Church, Cecily, a person often had to carry out lengthy penances before they could be forgiven. I’m inclined to see the whole Confession thing as a red herring though as someone who was really sorry would present himself to the guards. If they are entrenched in their own vile behaviour, it’s highly unlikely that they’ll go to Confession. Isn’t that one of the traits of the paedophile- they absolve themselves from guilt and often try to blame their child victim or claim that the child actually consented to or enjoyed the abuse. Can’t see these individuals on bended knee saying, ” Bless me father for I have sinned!”
It is the mindset of slaves who wish their priest or pastor to be a state-sponsored informant. You don’t deserve your freedom if you can’t see this. And, of course, before the blinkered ones up off the end, this is NOT an endorsement of abuse, pedophilia or pedestry but a defence of the freedom of religion and conscience. It’s another sign that Ireland is becoming a virulently anti-Catholic society and more is the shame. Don’t complain when all the ills of the world with discarding the faith of your fathers come knocking on your door.
Grow up, it’s legislation that’s long overdue and there’s nothing ‘anti catholic’ about reporting a crime especially if it’s against a child, freedom of conscience does not extend to covering up child abuse in any civilised society, the problem with the catholic church is that in it’s warped world the institution is more important than the victim and the ‘faith of our fathers’ is rapidly becoming a last resort for the very ills of the world you talk about. The law of the land is and cannot be selective and the pedophiles and their protectors had better get used to that fact.
It’s hard to see this as an attack on religion, as the whole point is that no-one is treated specially by the law. This isn’t a penal law against catholicism, if anything, the proposed law is exactly what any real christian would do, unless they misread the “Suffer the children” line…
And it’s even harder to see this as an attack on conscience – surely if there was a conscience there, the crime being confessed to wouldn’t be committed in the first place, and if it was, the confession would be to the authorities, not the local priest!
Lets say my religion says that if I sacrifice a goat to my God then any theft I commit is atoned for. Does that give me a defence when I am up before a judge? Not by a long shot.
Just because the Catholic faith has come up with a set of internal rules for their clergy, does not mean that they hold any weight when they clash with the law of the land. If you are told about a serious crime and you do not report it then you are an accessory to that crime. This is a fact, and not religious discrimination.
Claiming persecution is just making the Catholic Church look more guilty, and less willing to accept responsibility for their part in creating and hiding this problem.
i agree totally Patrick, there are many Islam institutions in Ireland the government wouldn’t dare challenge them on religion or anything afraid of their s**t too. They trying to control the catholic faith with bulls**t law that solves nothing only to cover up their own failures . anti catholics like ed dont get it . he posts on every fourm about catholic religion nothing abous muslims or islam. easy pickings for ed.
Although not mentioned by name, if you really think it is not an attempt to target the seal of confession then you’re very naïve. It is utterly unenforceable, probably unconstitutional and really is a cynical populist attempt to divert the public’s attention from the ever-dwindling powers of this government. It will never get implemented (since there’s 100% certainty its constitutionality will be challenged in the Supreme Court) but if the main purpose is to divert attention then it’s already doing its job.
Keyese: What has Islam got to do with what has been going on in the Irish catholic church? I don’t recall any imams being accused of child rape or buggery or of trying to cover it up! The catholic church in Ireland cannot expect to be above the law. If anyone is naive on this site it’s you and Patrick. It’s not an attack on confession you pair of muppets it’s a law to protect children, something the catholic church has failed to do. The Irish state has failed also in that respect but at least it is trying to fix that by introducing mandatory reporting.
surely this should go without saying for every law.
the so called sacrament of confession assumes that if you want god’s forgiveness you have to tell a priest. any catholic who believes it’s ok to square things with god while escaping the law in their own land is, like most religious, a self-centred cowardly hipocrite who feels they have a right to be on the run from the law carrying a little less guilt than other criminals
there is no limitation of religious freedom whatsoever. if a priest feels that his calling demands that he break the law (i.e. protect someone he knows to be a criminal) that is his problem, not the states.
everyone in europe is free to believe what they like. no one is free to pick and choose secular laws. we do not allow people to throw innocent humans down the sides of buildings on the condition they observe the aztec beliefs or allow people to drug and bury innocent people in the name of voodoo so why the hell are there europeans living in the 21st century who think not only is it ok conspire in their acts of child abuse in the name of some iron age middle-eastern myth but the law should actively protect them?
as ever, morally bankrupt
It’s interesting that, in the light of this, Dr Helen Buckley, recently appointed to the Health Service Executive’s advisory committee on children and family services,has voiced concern at the proposed introduction of mandatory reporting of cases of child abuse. You can read her views in detail on The Irish Association of Social Workers website-
http://www.iasw.ie/index.php/misc-folder/444-mandatory-reporting-may-not-be-right-for-child-abuse-dr-helen-buckely-july-2011
I’m sort of wondering if all this focus on the seal of confession is just a bit of window dressing to distract from the fact that, with all the bluster, the resources just aren’t there to protect our children properly.
You should read her full report. She’s observing that in other states, the amount of cases which were reported and which were false positives overwhelmed existing systems, which is a fair point; however the solution is better systems, not hiding the problem.
“It should be noted that failure to report has not been a major issue in respect of recent high-profile cases, the notable exception being those cases associated with the Catholic Church”
Same old, same old! Of course we already know this anyway, until they (catholic church) are actually forced to report child sex abuse they will continue to hide it, that’s WHY mandatory reporting is so vital.
“I’m sort of wondering if all this focus on the seal of confession”
The only people I see focusing on confession are Vatican apologists attempting to pretend they are being uniquely persecuted for their religion rather than merely being held up to account for the covering up of child abuse.
P.
I actually don’t have much faith, Mark, that the systems will be put in place. Will there be one extra brown cent put into child protection procedures given that there are cutbacks right, left and centre? There’ll be loads of new cases reported and not enough social workers to follow up the reports. Isn’t that what’s happening at the moment?
Maria, your lack of faith in the government to govern may be well-founded and shared by many; but it’s not a justification for not introducing mandatory reporting given that even those with concerns say “well, actually, our objections don’t apply to the catholic church”.
Exactly. All this is a distraction to make people talk about other issues ie 600 lost their jobs in Waterford yesterday, and a really tough budget is on the way. It’s like living in the matrix.
I’m, in favour of mandatory reporting, Mark. I just wonder if anything will change if resources are not put in place to deal with the increased number of reports of abuse. The state’s record on child protection leaves me questioning if much will change.
I’m just looking at the dramatic picture attached to this article- it’s almost laughable in the portrayal of the priest as a dark ominous- looking character. He almost looks like he’s about to deck someone!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dar%C3%ADo_Castrill%C3%B3n_Hoyos
“When heading the Vatican Congregation for the Clergy, Cardinal Castrillón Hoyos congratulated a French bishop in a 2001 letter for not denouncing a sexually abusive priest to the police.[9] In the letter dated 8 September 2001, Cardinal Castrillón backed French Bishop Pierre Pican’s decision not to denounce a priest who was later sentenced to 18 years in jail for repeated rape of a boy and sexual assaults on 10 others. Pican, who received a suspended three-month jail sentence for not denouncing sexual abuse of minors, admitted in court he had kept Rev. René Bissey in parish work despite the fact the priest had admitted in the confessional committing pedophile acts. “I congratulate you for not denouncing a priest to the civil administration,” Castrillón Hoyos wrote. “You have acted well and I am pleased to have a colleague in the episcopate who, in the eyes of history and of all other bishops in the world, preferred prison to denouncing his son and priest.” The letter cited Vatican documents and an epistle of Saint Paul to bolster its argument about special bishop-priest links.
Vatican spokesman Rev. Federico Lombardi did not dispute the letter’s authenticity, but said it confirmed “how opportune it was to centralize treatment of Catholic sex abuse cases by clerics under the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.” Castrillón Hoyos justified his actions, saying the late Pope John Paul II authorised him to send the letter. “After consulting the Pope, I wrote a letter to the bishop, congratulating him as a model of a father who does not turn in his children,” he said.”
You’re right; it should be a dramatic picture of a Cardinal instead.
P.
Is there any other country in the Western world that has a law requiring priests to break the seal of Confession?
Why can’t we lead the way for once? Atonement for sin is not the same thing as punishment for a crime.
@Cecily There is no leading the way here. Most countries and states exclude disclosures made in the confessional. But why stop at child abuse? If we are going to get reports of crime out of confession boxes lets get them all right across the board.
@mark – there’s a difference in an across the table conversation between a priest and a bishop and the rite of confession as generally understood. There should be no protection for these day-to-day conversations and non-disclosure should be punishable as should anybody who knowingly moves an abuser about. I wouldn’t consider any formal interview between a priest and his superior as protected under the rite of confession.
Plus how do you prove disclosure in a confession box? Bug it?
I get the impression this is another one of FG’s populist and very late responses to the issue and a 2 fingers to the Vatican. The real problem of abuse is much more than just members of the clergy.
Enda must be doing something right- he was praised in an article published in the on-line edition of People’s Daily, the official newspaper of The Chinese Communist Party! Good on ya, Enda, you’re in good company!!
Personally, I don’t see the sense of including confession in this legislation. Is there any need to? What about other crimes that are confessed? Is there an onus to report, say, murder?
It’s a very unwise and unnecessary move to include confession in this legislation. There is little to be gained and smacks of draconian laws after the horse has bolted. There are numerous times where the State and it’s agencies – police, health boards other individuals – could have intervened in the past and stopped abuse. They didn’t citing all sorts of reasoning. In fact, we had a recent example of an individual on the sex offenders list being allowed to work in a school despite best practice and all the rules now in place. There are TDs in Dail Eireann who did not act when they had the opportunity to approve legislation or investigate further.
This also smacks of oppressive State intervention for little or no benefit. We have no way of knowing if any sexual predator – religious or otherwise – confesses. Given the sinister and duplicitous nature of these individuals, I would guess not.
Is there any other countries that have this in law?
We have no way of knowing if any sexual predator â religious or otherwise â confesses.
This is a reactive law and only targeting the catholic church. Are all people included in this ie doctors, shrinks etc. If not why not. Also with the nature of child abuse the abuser does not think he is doing anything wrong and hence will hardly confess.
If they really wanted to protect children there are other type laws that could be brought in.
Religion does have too much control over their ‘flock’ but any laws brought in to curb this should be brought in against all religions and not specific ones.
“This is a reactive law and only targeting the catholic church.”
Utterly absurd. The law doesn’t even mention the Catholic Church, and it’s only a subset of Catholics who are asking for explicit exemption from it. It’s like Islamists claiming that domestic violence laws target them.
P.
So doctors, lawyers, shrinks are also covered in this law then. Also. how will it be enforced.
Doctors, shrinks and so on will be covered by this law, but it won’t be new cover – they already are required to break medical confidentiality in the event that something disclosed in confidence represents a hazard to someone else or the public.
And there are other exceptions to that confidentiality that have existed for years without anyone thinking it was a problem. For example, I don’t have medical confidentiality because I have a firearms licence. The gardai can ask to see my medical records at any time and under the law my having that licence gives them permission to see those records.
have your say