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TODAY, DAVID NORRIS is one of the best-known politicians in Ireland. Certainly one of the best known Senators.
That has been the case for many years. In 2016 he stands as one of the most prominent gay-rights activists in the State.
30 years ago, he was in a legal fight for his human rights with the government of the day. And that government had some no-holds-barred ideas when it came to preserving the status quo, according to papers released under the 30-year-rule by the National Archives.
Norris’ case was on the surface a simple one – essentially, in Ireland it wasn’t illegal to be a homosexual at the time. It was, however, illegal to commit ‘certain homosexual acts’, including ‘buggery’.
Norris, represented by one Mary Robinson, argued that this was an infringement of his human rights. The case was first taken in 1977, before progressing to (and being dismissed by) the Irish Supreme Court in 1983. So the Senator took his case to Europe.
Specifically, he alleged that Irish law violated Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights – the right to respect for one’s private life – and that in doing so he became a de facto victim of discrimination.
From the get-go, the government knew legal precedent was not on its side.
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“A finding against the Government seems unavoidable,” one Department of Foreign Affairs (DFA) memo from November 1984 said.
There is no material available to show that the laws are “necessary” to protect health, and all arguments on their necessity to protect morality failed in the Dudgeon case.
Duty-bound to uphold Irish law it may have been, nevertheless by modern standards it seems a little odd that the government, which for the time was generally seen as progressive in its outlook, was so committed to defeating Norris on the issue.
The Dudgeon case referred to here was a similar trial taken to the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) in 1981 by a gay man, Jeff Dudgeon, in Northern Ireland.
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That case was significant as it was the first such regarding homosexual rights to be taken to the highest level in Europe. In ruling in Dudgeon’s favour, the court set the precedent that would see discrimination against any aspect of homosexual behaviour eventually ruled illegal in all member states.
The Dudgeon finding meant that precedent was in Norris’ favour, though aside from the argument of discrimination there was little else in common between the two cases (Dudgeon’s related to his interrogation at the hands of the RUC in 1975 concerning his sexual activities).
To bolster its case, the Irish Government began polling Irish embassies (particularly the US embassy in Washington) in different countries from around the world to see how they were treating the subject of homosexuality:
“On 27 August the Washington Post reported that a federal appeals court in New Orleans upheld a Texas law banning homosexual activity and making the private sexual lives of more than 700,000 Texas homosexuals illegal. I will try to obtain a copy of this law and, if successful, I will forward it to you,” read an August 1985 response from the Washington embassy.
News from the Italian embassy was less helpful to the government’s cause:
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In light of these setbacks, the government in October 1985 briefly considered whether or not invoking the health risks of Aids would be a runner:
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Assessment of the case as at 9 October 1985 with reference to the question of raising Aids in the defence.
Terms of Government decision of 10 October 1985 deciding that subject to certain consultations between the Ministers of Foreign Affairs and Justice the issue of Aids should not be raised in the defence.
Following consultation between the DFA and the Department of Justice, it was decided it did not make sense to do so.
The case would eventually be decided in Norris’ favour by the ECHR in 1988. The Irish legislation outlawing the crime of ‘buggery’ meanwhile was repealed in 1993.
See National Archives file 2016/22/1158
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Hugh go out and have a few pints for yourself ..if there’s no news that’s alright..
You don’t think the next leader of our country is news?
The people decide that not fine Gael..if you read the piece it’s about leader of a political party ..not the country. .so no it’s not news
Which party do you think is going to have more seats than FG in 2016 Sean?
just because you have most seats won’t necessarily mean you will lead the government. .they have already ruled out coalition with anyone bar Labour. .but they are going to be wiped out
Yeah I can picture FG being charitable and letting FF taking the reigns even though they have less seats….
If FF and Sinn Fein go into coalition, the largest party would not be in govt. That has happened in past with FF largest party but in opposition to a FG/lab govt.
So you’d want idiots to go in to coalition with the muppets who caused a lot of the recent problems in Ireland to lead the next government.
It’s not news because the next leader of FG is completely obvious.
Alan Kelly’s a shoo in.
Blame ff fg labour our future looks bright!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/ireland
All the pictures above i find vomit inducing.
He’s not in FG
Kate, Little jim is using sarcasm. Because labour have become even more right wing than FG.
Leo Varadkar.
“The Health Minister has long been tipped as a potential successor to Enda Kenny given the admirable way in which he went public about his sexuality”
Seriously.
What the fcuk does that even mean?
it means f*ck policy.
No coincidence. Nobody likes troll boobs, now be a dear and fk off back under your bridge.
Fitzgerald would bring us back decades. Her tenure has overseen promoting to the job of commissioner an officer that operated at the highest levels of the last administration. Ludicrously, she’s a big fan of criminalising prostitution.
This woman is stuck in the 1970′s. .
And showed zero leadership when DOB went to court and the country was in limbo for a period of days.
And even less since the serious leak last week about charges being brought against the protesters.
And IMO the jury is still out on Leo until he starts actually doing something instead of talking about it. He can start with emergency departments.
Agreed. I wonder how many elderly people were stuck on trolleys when Leo was on the media the other day sniping at the Right2Water movement.
Old people don’t really deserve hopsital beds though. Waste of taxpayer’s money. They’ll die anyway, may as well leave them on the floor and sweep away the bodies every morning.
A lot of people might be fooled into thinking that’s a joke Lindsay but I suspect it is actual FG policy.
Like there’s a difference, Lindsay.
I’m in and out of this forum
Talking to some guys that have totally givin up on it
It used to be a good place to have a debate
Connely stroke wer jamin and the other end Tony slap have destroyed it
Lads feck off and let in an honest debate
That’s sad, Brendan. At least you still like me. ;)
it’s best to just ignore they thrive on attention .
Stop being rude about us actresses.
Hayes? ?????? Hahaha.
Well said Kate Ellen. Hayes and Harris are two very unlikeable characters. Both of them are beyond pompous. Coveney’s conduct during the leadership challenge in 2010 should rule him out. What was he at? Leo is the man to lead FG next. The only man. Interesting to see if he gets it. I hear he’s not as popular with his FG colleagues as he is with the public.
You left out BOSCO they are all muppets.What experience have any of them except on how to line their own pockets
Maybe leo but the rest including your beloved leader will struggle to get re elected and rightly so
Simon Harris?
Jesus help us all if that conceited, arrogant, pompous, stuck-up, cocky, overbearing, puffed up, presumptuous, self-opinionated little upstart ever takes the reins of power in the republic.
Probably the second most annoying person in Ireland after Panti Bliss.
“Jesus help us all if that conceited, arrogant, pompous, stuck-up, cocky, overbearing, puffed up, presumptuous, self-opinionated little upstart”
You just listed Fine Gael’s best qualities!
Shudder at the thought of that jacques, if he ever took the reins of Power I’d leave the country for good. He’s the most annoying pompous arrogant man I’ve ever seen in government.
To be honest who cares we all know they have no interest in the Irish citizen happy to see them on their knees while they pick up their gold plated pension.
Driving us out of a recession and reducing unemployment, yet you say they have no interest in the Irish citizen… Odd.
Check again Mark you know look at self harm figures and when you have time tell me I’m wrong.
I’d say the self-harming figures were up in every country that is going through recession. I assume FG are at fault for those too??
Don’t tell me Mark, let me guess… You’re an aspiring leader of YFG right?
It’s like staring into the toilet before you flush.
Hahaha!
Don`t do it then.
The floating voters.
Not happy with your leader Hugh.Have noticed this trend in your articles .Seen the light ? :)
Enda has never been questioned over the death of a mother of 10.
Your beloved leader Enda should be questioned about the homeless and the out of control suicides that plague this country thanks to his never ending austerity agenda blueshirt troll.
Too many clowns to choose from & all equally useless political hacks. Perhaps they could job share & then share the blame! FG are deluded as a party. In the last election votes poured in for them in order to give FF a deserved kicking but that won’t be the case next time. A rotten party for rotten people.
You cray cray?
Harris could have had a tan this summer but sought shelter up Enda’s arse.
Different kind of tan, that. Kind of goes with black.
Insufferable bunch of insipid insiders. That offensive language filter is getting annoying.
Hater.
Ohh yes.
Replace Enda…..hmmmmmmm
Why bother, he appears to be doing a great job in creating schisms in the party and alienating the electorate all by himself!
Besides I have begun to enjoy the “Absentee Taioseach” approach he has adopted.
A modest man with much to be modest about, apparently.
I hope they keep him as leader of FG for another 20 yrs!
I hope the electorate use their vote wisely.
I reckon the most suitable next leader of Fine Gael would be Alan Kelly.
Sure, he’s a member of the Labour party but what does that even mean anymore?
Couldn’t give a flying fcuk! Every single one of these parasites are uninspiring and unoriginal.
We the people need to move away from this style of political thinking and remove these leeches!
Absolute puke for a Sunday night.
BURN THE BOND HOLDERS
Covney if he survives being lynched by the farmers
Coveney has Bilderberg experience – they should give him a chance…
I think Fat Freddy Thompson make a great leader at least he does not hide the fact he is a crook. But I don’t think Angle Merkel would like him.
jeez Cyril , haven’t heard that name in a long time !
He liked to splash the cash too. As do his family apparently. 50k for the most pretentious headstone you’ve ever seen. Sure it’s in the culture boss. Will revenue follow that one up, while they’re checking out our credit and debit cards, I wonder!?
NOT A HOPE……..NEXT PLEASE!!!!
Well Fg had their Ard fheis a couple of years ago in the South Court Hotel in limerick. I was queuing for the atm at the shop next to the hotel. The place was filling with Fg ers all out for smokes or chips. Well the talk outside that shop was all about Simon Coveneys bid for the leadership. That bid seems to be a done deal. He appeared to have done a lot of networking there with all the delegates. So I suppose it’s just a matter of when. Fg ers take note loose lips outside Ard fheis may mean stuff ends up on the journal lol
Coveney doing a Dr. Evil impression isn’t likely to inspire confidence
Where’s Wally?
Who gives a flying f@uk !!!
Bruce Lee?
He’s dead hopefully like these parties?
Wow, how insensitive.
Harris is a pompous ass.
All good choices but I believe Enda has what it takes to lead FG to an overall majority in 2016.
Tap Solny
Nope that’s not one of my ones.
Good thing everything you believe is warped!
Only FG could take record homelessness, poverty and endless debt and dress it up like its a slight recovery.
Poverty is a choice and one that the government does not make for people.
It’s well past your bedtime……
Disbanding FG would be a better option than speculating about who their next Führer will be!
Makes no difference who the leader is because they are all dead in the water anyhow
Looked at Alois Irlmaier’s predictions and he says nothing about a55holes in it…
I think Enda had been a great leader. both when FG crashed 13 years ago and in his role as Taoiseach. my money would be in Fitzgerald for next leader of the party.
€10 doesn’t really count.
Does €50?
Zzzzzzzzzz
Great choice from a bumbling moron to two corrupt incompetent lying parasitic weasels…. reminds of the titanic
OUT OUT OUT!!
Hey Hugh, you left Bosco off the candidates list….
I agree Katie Byrne – not ready yet to shuffle the cards as to what’s on the Game Table.
Ty KK x
If this was an article about incompetence, each and every one of them would get my vote.
Harris probably scares me the most. At 28 he may be the youngest but he also seems the most committed to the party mantra. I can see him reading the FG election manifesto at the foot of his bed each night before he goes to sleep. I think Varadkar could take the leadership role though. He’s shown he can be effective while Minister for Transport and now at Health, where he acts as corporate hatchetman, running the services into the ground and then privatising as much as possible. He can achieve spending targets that keep the Germans happy, regardlewss of the human costs. Even if he doesn’t make leader, there will be plenty of private sector roles open to him in the future.
Worked as a jobridge intern in HSE for eight months, needless to say witnessed and endured the kind of abuse and corruption endemic in the system. Spent six months fighting for someone, anyone to address the issues and having to deal with the typical HSE response, if we ignore it long enough it will go away. In desperation contacted the minister for health and received a personal reply within three days. Three days. Practically saved my life. Never gave a vote to FG before but if I could vote for Leo alone I would. You can say what you want about the man but his heart is in the right place and he can get the job done. I agree with journal though, probably not just yet.
A person has to be at least 35 years old in order to become Taoiseach, so it seems odd to have included Simon Harris in this list in the first place.
Just wondering, what happens if kenny doesn’t get elected in the next election as leader of fg. Can he still become taoiseach? If not, will they just change the law and just make him taoiseach, like they easily changed it to be able to directly take money out of peoples bank accounts and welfare payments to pay the irish water bill, or will they be legally prevented from changing the law, just like they were prevented from stopping an increase in their own political pensions!
Does it matter who is leader of a party that destroyed our country.The party who single handed destroyed our health services They closed down essential services such as A+E’s and destroyed our ambulance service
More and more patients left on trollies and left with no dignity in hospitals because of the bed cut-backs
This party have seen more protests taking place in Ireland since they took office four and half years ago
They imposed taxes such as pensions levies and USC’s Property taxes and Water charges and all the hidden taxes. Have seen more evictions and Homelessness Children sleep on the streets…………….
They have seen most of our young people leave our shore for gainful employment Enda said recently that most of those young people will unlikely come home because of our very high taxes and All Fine Gael members have sat back and allowed Cabinet to impose such hardships on the people of Ireland
Fine Gael should be obliterated in the next election never mind be worried about who will be leader
Leo me thinks
All headless chickens. They are only into helping themselves, family, and friends. Not one decent politician among the lot of them. All the above has put the country back sixty years. Criminals, the lot of them. I want to see each one held accountable for destroying the welfare of our citizens.
No mention of Francis underwood !
When it comes to a choice between these candidates – - you couldn’t rule out the likes of Jedward or Fr Dougle McGuire for comparable competence.
have your say