Wheres the proof that the Shankill butchers were protected by the police?

I want to see it.

No problem Jamesy:

Firstly, Edward McIllwaine, one of the Shankill Butchers, was also a member of the UDR

P.s. The whole time he was a member of the Shankill Butchers and of the UDR, he was on the RUC suspects list

See also:

Secondly:

http://www.thedetail.tv/issues/20/udr-girdwood-story/british-army-covered-up-udr-units-links-to-uvf
“The Detail website can reveal top secret government papers which disclose that the UDR’s Belfast battalion was heavily infiltrated by the UVF in the late 1970s.

The `For UK Eyes Only’ documents, uncovered by the Pat Finucane Centre, reveal how:

• Army chiefs feared that 70 soldiers in one UDR unit were linked to the UVF in west Belfast, INCLUDING ONE MEMBER OF THE NOTORIOUS SHANKILL BUTCHER GANG;”

See also:

John Crawford was murdered by William Moore (one of the Shankill Butchers). The gang leader in that attack? A member of the British Army’s MRF called Jimmy McKenna.

Such a load of whataboutery I’ve never seen before old chap, amusing nonetheless!

So the UVF infiltrated the UDR, sure we all know that. The UDR were criticised for their vetting procedure, maybe the same way current Irish army members are involved in republican terrorism.

The point is that it is now known that the army chiefs KNEW about members in the UVF and that one of the butchers was on an RUC suspects list….BUT WAS ALLOWED FREE REIGN TO MURDER. You asked for proof (again), and have been provided with it (again).

Nuala O’Loane also produced a report detailing the levels of collusion between the UVF and the RUC.

Good man Tir Eoghain Gael
Go home jamesy ye clown defending serial killers while calling the IRA murderers
I hear that head butcher Murphy started crying and pleading for his life when the gunmen approached to do society a favour

The Shankill butchers were scvmbags just like the IRA. Do you boys acknowlege that both organisations were a shower of murderous terrorists?

The butchers weren’t an orginasation they were a couple of serial killing bigoted parasites whose head butcher whinged like a little girl instead of saying fcuk you and taking it like a man

Whataboutery/subject changing. You said you didn’t believe the Shankill Butchers were protected by the RUC and asked for evidence that they were. Don’t run to change the subject when you get that evidence handed to you.

So why were they lifted and jailed then?

Only some. And McIllwaine was allowed by the RUC to lead his double life for three years while he was carrying out his activities. Why?

Why were they lifted and jailed I asked you, who jailed them?

Irrelevant. The issue is whether or not they were being protected. I have shown you evidence that at least one of them was known to the RUC who allowed him to continue his murderous ways for three years. In other words, he was being protected while he was engaged in murdering innocent people.

Are you going to tell the board here who lifted and jailed them? How is it irrelevant?

How is it irrelevant? If you had a family member murdered by someone who the police knew about, but allowed a free reign for three years, would you consider it irrelevant?

I asked you who arrested and jailed them. You said irrelevant. How was my question irrelevant?

If you are incapable of answering then just say, im not playing this game any longer. Plenty of others on here to speak with.

“It’s my ball and I’m going home!” sez Jamesy!

You have been provided with the evidence you asked for on whether or not the Shankil Butchers were protected. I provided evidence showing they were protected by the both UDR and the RUC and that at least one was also a MEMBER of the UDR. I provided evidence that one was known to the RUC for three years while he was murdering innocent people.

And you believe that he wasn’t being protected for those three years (and more)?

You’re a joke!!

None, the loyalists had nowhere to run to

None, the loyalists had nowhere to run to

Jamesy Boy – which one of the 17 Unionist Parties should I vote for ?
I’m thinking of becoming a totally bigoted Unionist like you and I need some guidance please ?

Oh so im a bigot now because I openly renounce scvmbag paramilitaries from BOTH sides. Strange logic, id rather be a bigot then than a supporter of child murdering terrorists.

Anybody on this thread that supports the IRA are the true bigots of this land, why? Because you support what happened at Kingsmills, you support what happened in Enniskillen and in Birmingham and hundreds of other locations in this country. Bigots one and all.

Completely off topic but, I was working in East Belfast a few weeks ago. A deeply traditional loyalist area, and I was working with men who were clearly loyalists, probably in a band, supported ‘Norn Iron’ (judging by the tattoos) and most likely have never set foot in the south and probably never will. I am clearly from Donegal, and my name is more than a hint at my cultural identity. I have to say we got on well. We laughed about the politics, had a bit of craic about what to call ‘Derry’ and generally enjoyed working with them. I did not sense any hatred or bigotry, to me they seemed like ordinary decent people on the face of it. Later on that week it struck me, that somewhere along the line some sort of collective insanity grips these people and drives them to despise me and everything I stand for. I can only conclude that the Orange Order is the true force of evil in Northern Ireland. It perpetuates an ancient myth that somehow Protestants are superior to Catholics and that their ‘ascendancy’ is a god and crown given right. I say ban sectarian parades, sectarian flags, public displays of hatred, including murals, bonfires and songs. It might take another generation, but as long as the Orange Order exists, there will always be sectarian tension in the north.

Jamesy, are you allergic to reason? You dismiss every negative statement about unionism and demand evidence. When evidence is provided, you refuse to acknowledge it.

Ready to admit that you were wrong about British collusion with terror forces? You were provided with a litany of evidence.

Well the same kind of insanity exists in your community too, it was plain to see throughout the conflict.

Tyrone who arrested and jailed the Shankill butchers. I want you to write it here so we can all see it.

Thats the last word you’ll get from me til its answered.

Jamesy, I disagree.

@ white fang

I dismissed the republican take on collusion and I still do. Given the circumstances there were always going to be soldiers/police sympathetic to the loyalist cause and maybe using loyalist terrorists to exact revenge on the republicans or their communities. So to answer your question -

YES COLLUSION DID EXIST DURING THE CONFLICT

On both sides of the border might I add!

Any more questions? I feel like im in Antrim police station here!!

What republican take? I’m basing my argument off of the Stevens Inquiries, held by the British government. The British government accept that collusion occurred.

You’re either lying or completely delusional. You claimed that no collusion occurred, none. And that you wouldn’t accept that any (yes, any) collusion occurred until an inquiry had concluded such. Of course, you hadn’t heard of the aforementioned Stevens Inquiries. Embarrassing. I’ll quote your actual posts, verbatim, if you like? You’re so pig headed. Sometimes it’s better to just accept that you are wrong and move on, backtracking just digs the hole deeper.

@ piarais

Im well used to people disagreeing with me on here. If you actually studies the conflict though and looked at some of the things your community perpetrated on mine then youd know that there were some sick insance hoodlums in your community, the whole world knows it, thats why they designated them a terrorist organisation in most countries.

Fang I told you that collusion did take place, just not on the scale that you boys seem to think. Your mate Tyrone said there 500/600 murders via collusion, republicans think that loyalists didnt do one thing themselves and that every killing they ever carried out was ordered by the state. This is a ludicrous view to hold and one I will argue against at all times.

Here’s some of Jamesy’s past comments.

“What secret deals between the British army and the UVF? Name one.”

“Until inquiries uncover this collusion then I’m treating it as a republican myth.”

It’s there for all to see, you clearly hadn’t heard of the Stevens Inquiries.

Look, here you are arguing that Brian Nelson was a member of the UDA, not the UFF.

“Brian Nelson was UDA”

“I said earlier that Brian Nelson was in the UDA which is a fact, look how many red thumbs it received.”

The UDA used the name UFF to claim responsibility for attacks. Because the two claimed to be separate organisations, the UDA was able to retain it’s legal status.

They are the very same organisation. Something else you clearly didn’t know. Your ignorance is astounding, mate. You clearly haven’t a clue what you’re taking about.

Of course there were. La Mon, Enniskillen, Shankill, Warrington and many others, all shameful, despicable acts. No arguments here. However, the IRA guns fell silent. Weapons decommissioned, war declared over. Yet still we have the annual display of openly sectarian, bigoted hatred perpetrated by the OO. When will they say, enough is enough, where is their declaration of peace? If you were to set up an organisation like the OO tomorrow it would be banned in an instant.

I never said that, Aidy, as you well know. Take it up with Tyrone.

Jamesy claimed that no collusion occurred. I’m calling him out on that. An utterly moronic stance to take, I’m sure you’ll agree?

Anyway, this is clearly pointless. You can’t be reasoned with, you are utterly cemented in your views. Never a good thing.

It’s been fun though, so I’ll leave you with some advice. The Jamesy account has lost all credibility, you should create a new one.

All the guns fell silent here and im happy they did. It wasnt just the IRA that stopped, the place is fully demilitarised now compared to what it used to be. A lot of bickering continues though.

The UDA is the umbrella group, the UFF were its militant wing, the UYM its youth wing and the LPA its prisoners welfare wing. I never ever said they were different organisations, they are different branches of the same group.

Anything else?

I’ll be on here daily Fang if you want to continue the debate. No new profiles, just Jamesy.

Done with the lot of them up there, it’s just not worth it. Let them try and grow up themselves

PS Fang I told you a few posts back that collusion did take place, it happened a lot less than you seem to think though.

Can you not just accept what im saying here? I think you just have it in for me for some reason. Im a unionist that opposes violence, if that doesnt stand well with you then tough dung.

I’m back, for now.

You backtracked a couple of posts ago because you were presented with irrefutable evidence of collusion. Yesterday, you were arguing that NO collusion occurred. You were wrong. Now you’re trying to claim that you always accepted that collusion occurred. Like I said, you’re either lying or delusional.

A lot less than I think? My entire argument is based on the findings of the Stevens Inquiries. It’s not what I think, it’s what the British government has confirmed. How can you not see that? I really do think you’re delusional.

Collusion occured, on both sides of the fence. I agree on that, do you?

What didnt happen though was institutionalised collusion like many republicans try and tell us.

Some collusion took place, on both sides of the fence, agreed?

Will you move on now or do you want to waste another few hours goinh around in circles?

You claimed that no collusion occurred yesterday. We all saw it. Delusional or lying.

Obviously you dont want to move on from this then. I’ll have to move on alone in that case.

hahaha Aidy McBride makes a reappearance by mistake, caught rapid you troll. Haven’t seen him in ages. Lads yisser wastin yisser time talkin to this fella, he’s a pure walter mitty type with a hape of accounts who only comes on here to stir the proverbial.

So, you’re not man enough to admit that you were wrong? You would gain back a bit of credibility if you did. We’re all wrong from time to time. Ignorance can be cured. Stupidity, such as the refusal to acknowledge demonstrated ignorance, can’t be.

I must mind and ask Jamies permission the next time I post on the Journal ;)))

Post away pal, just a shame you haven’t the balls to use your real name and just one account.

Fang I’ll admit I worded certain things wrong but in my defence I was engaging 2 or 3 different posters at the same time, it can get a bit confusing.

In a nutshell I was trying to say that collusion happened to an extent, I said it didnt happen the way some others put it. The proof and inquiries I want are for the claims that upwards of 500 murders were carried out by loyalists under the guidance of state security, when I see these claims proven I’ll accept the republican view of collusion then. In the meantime im putting it down to a few rogue members of the security forces.

Id love to see the reaction id get if I came on here and said loyalist terrorists were good at what they done, them and the republicans done fcuk all good for this land, terrorist vermin the lot of them.

I truly hope that this is just internet boasting, it pains me to think that there could be so many poisioned minds out there. Surely most of Ireland rejects ALL these murderous groups?

Steal land, expect Blood.

Imagine the outrage if you said the soldiers fully deserved their medals for their brave deeds on Bloody Sunday- same thing folks

Did the people at Kingmills or Enniskillen deserve to die and were the IRA justified in murdering them?

Somebody answer me that.

“Did the people at Kingmills or Enniskillen deserve to die and were the IRA justified in murdering them?”

No, they weren’t justified in it. I think the OP meant that the IRA were “functional” at what they did, which was engage in a Guerrilla war against a sophisticated modern army. I don’t think he means that any attacks on civilians by the IRA was “good”.

The same cannot be said about Loyalists as they did not engage in attacks against a modern traditional army.

Despicable acts if the truth be told

The man with the multi million dollar baby killing machine for his Twitter avatar want’s to talk about what people deserve to die. Come back to us when you find the slightest bit of credibility.
And to answer your question, The Kings Mill massacre was a heinous, despicable, cowardly attack carried out by vile people.
I would suggest though, that you read what suspicions sole survivor Alan Black has about British state involvement in the massacre, and in particular Willie Frazer’s Daddy’s gang the Glenanne Gang. I wouldn’t be surprised in the slightest. With that being said, if it was an IRA did organise and carry out the attack, my sentiments on the killers are the very same.

That last sentence doesn’t even make sense to me, so make of it what you will.

David, Mugabe would love you like a son. Are you related?

Its common knowledge that the IRA did carry out Kingsmills, a supposedly non sectarian (cough cough) organisation murdering 10 men because they happened to be Protestants.

The fella above said the IRA were good at what they did, he didnt specify what. How can you be a wee bit of an IRA supporter anyway, you either support them and all their attacks or dont support them at all.

Jamesy, some of the families of the murder victims from Kingsmill have taken a case recently against the British Government over the slaughter. Guess what they are saying … The leader of the murder squad was an undercover British Agent. In other words, your beloved British Govmnt supported and encouraged the slaughter of innocent men on their way home from work.
The purpose of the attack was to try and show the world that the IRA were plain and simple murderers.
The same thing was attempted during the slaughter of the Miami Show Band. British Army/UDR colluded in the attempt to blow up the band members in order to make it look like the IRA carried it out. Again the purpose being to discredit the IRA. When the bomb exploded prematurely, they just reverted to gunning the band members down in cold blood.
The same was attempted with the Dublin Monaghan Bombings. At the outset the people believed the IRA was responsible. Turns out the British Army organized it.
The same thing happened with the British army MRF murder squads. In many of their drive-by shootings, they used IRA weaponery to try and convince the population that the IRA were behind the attacks.
How many more examples do you need to try and work out who the REAL terrorists were during the war in the North.

The IRA carried out Kingsmills though, not the British. Nobody made the IRA do it, they planned and carried it out themselves.

Agreed … planned and orchestrated by the British Security Services. Its doesn’t excuse the individual IRA members involved, but damn, it definitely shows what a terrorist grouping the IRA were fighting against.

It was solely an IRA operation, are you seriously suggesting a British army officer got the south armagh IRA to murder 10 people? You are deluded if thats what you think.

What about Tullyvallen? Suppose that was the UDA was it?

Or Enniskillen, maybe that was a stray RAF bomb.

Man up and just accept that the IRA were just a group of murdering scvm. The rest of the country accepts it including 90% of the Irish people.

The IRA have always denied responsibility for it. It’s also interesting that Alan Black has stated it was an English accent he heard amongst the attackers.
False flag operations, just one of the many dirty tools of war your beloved British army and government like to use. I know it doesn’t bother you that they killed thousands of nationalists, but does it not bother you that they used the blood of the community you say you belong to as pawns in their filthy war of occupation? By the way I don’t like to put labels on people. When I look north I just see Irish people and confused Irish people and so does the rest of the world.

Thousands of nationalists? The IRA themselves killed more nationalists than any other group you fool, open your eyes.

And an inquiry into Kingsmills found that the IRA were responsible, weapons used in other IRA attacks were traced back to Kingsmills. The hunger striker Raymond McCreesh was caught in possession of a rifle that was used at Kingsmills. Dont try your republican revisionism with me.

Not long now lol I dont like the idea of the Euro but if the majority of NI votes for it I’ll happily join your republic, cant see us being well accepted but what other choice will be open to us?

In the meantime I’ll be a proud Ulster unionist and only cross bridges as I come to them. Even if a UI took place tomorrow id still dislike republicans and particularly IRA loving vermin. The only thing then is they’d have defeated us which would be pretty hard to live with in my humble opinion.

“Not very informed are you?”

…says the man who in the past few days has revealed that he had never heard of any of the inquiries into collusion.

I didnt say that. I just refused to acknowledge your posts because you are overlooking ever question I put to you.