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The irony is that we had a tram system in Cork just like Dublin years ago but both systems were ripped up to make way for cars. Now we can look at the old lines that have either fallen into disregard or turned into walkways from our cars stuck in a traffic jam.
@Brian Ward: And a very good system it was. We could also do with more small car ferries as the Cobh to Passage West one has been a real success. I think it would open up parts of East Cork that are just too far out to commute to the city otherwise, to housebuyers and help relieve pressure on first time buyers and renters.
Indeed, isn’t there still a visible rail line that goes all the way down to the Point in Dublin along the quays. They didn’t even bother removing it when cars were all the rage. Yet how many hundreds of millions did they spend extending the luas down to the Point.
The population argument is really the wrong way around. Population density follows public transport infrastructure. It’s not that you should have density before you get the transport.
Something to consider. In the 1970s, the density in Cork and Dublin was very similar. Since then, Dublin’s has increased, while Cork’s has decreased. Why? Because Dublin has seen investment in quality public transport (DART, Luas), while Cork has been forced to rely on the car, which means stretched out suburbs. Just look at what has been built along the Luas lines and you’ll see this effect.
If we try to increase density without having the public transport in place first, we’ll just get people who are car dependent and won’t change, and we’ll encourage congestion, plus a belief that giving up the road space will make the congestion worse.
But surely you cannot justify spending billions on a light rail system for a city population of 120,000 while you then wait for the workers to arrive. Where’s the demand? That’s Jackie Healy Rae logic.
You are absolutely correct, yet all Irish planners and politicians think in exactly the opposite way. They think public transport should be “provided” to where people are already living.
Sean bus lines should be provided for where people are already living. Rail lines however should be put in place in advance of development. It becomes much easier to get planning permission if there’s a rail link, so it’s a case of build it and they will come.
And you believe that 540K. The new children’s hospital was going to cost €260m initially. Now it’s over a billion!!!! Treble whatever figure is thrown out there.
Chris you say in the 1970s the density of Dublin and Cork was similar and based on this premise build an entire argument for light rail in Cork. on that. The problem is that your premise is untrue. Dublin has always had a far larger population than Cork city. If you think that the only reason Dublin has grown faster than Cork is public transport then you haven’t been to Dublin and don’t know the economics of cities. Dublin is a capital city. Cork is a small city. It has neither the population or the density for light rail. Other solutions will have to be found.
@John R: Population size and population density are not the same thing. Ireland has a larger population than San Marino, but San Marino has greater population density than Ireland.
I am not saying Chris is right or wrong – but you at least need to understand exactly what he is saying before you can critique his points.
Talleyrand you’re correct but it’s irrelevant in this case. You can have population density but lack the size of population necessary to make rail a realistic population. Dublin has that population but barely the scale as the city it too spread out. Cork city has neither the population nor the scale. Politicians make many promises most based on populism. Light rail is very expensive both to build and to run. The construction requires a massive state subvention. The operational costs in the case of the Dublin Luas are met by the users. In the case of Cork it is likely that the user base would be far less for any given line. Hence an operational subsidy would be needed.
The argument that just because Dublin has it Cork should as well is just the politics of envy not reason.
@Alan. For the most part a LUAS type system would service the suburbs..the wider streets such as Patrick Street, South Mall, Grand Parade and Parnell Place would be well able to accommodate it. Given that Cork has such a high density of FDI with the pharmaceutical industry in particular, this would benefit the movement of people hugely from places like Ring as kiddy and Little Island the latter which suffers from enormous traffic congestion, so much so businesses there are staggering their staffs finishing times to allow them get home at a reasonable hour. It makes nothing but good sense to have a system like this here albeit on a smaller scale that Dublin. Ohhhhh…and we love ye too.
I remember rail tracks in the 70s and early 80s that ran from Kent Station up towards City Hall over Brian Boru Bridge.These were used a lot by freight trains transporting grain and fertiliser at the time to and from the docks.Its such a shame that they were covered over and were not extended to other parts of the city and parts of the county.In actual fact a rail system ran from Skibereen right in towards Waterfall also which was allowed go ruin and never preserved.Its such a shame.I’d prefer the thoughts of having a tram type system that operates in our twinned city San Francisco.
There are old railway lines that can be used but critical junctions have been sold off in Cork city. An East West line would make sense joining the courthouse , ucc bons hospital, cuh , model road industrial park, cit. But this will never happen. So it’s the bus or cycle if you don’t want to drive.
So in summary. The politicians bankrupt the country and population didn’t seem to be the problem before the economic crash but it’s the excuse now because they can’t afford it now basically.
A small monorail would probably work better in Cork than a luas tram line. A lot of the cost of building the luas was buying land off people along the line. A stoneworks in Dundrum got around 5 million while an acre at the edge of Sandyford cost 12 million. Put it up in the air on stilts.
David “Cork accounts for one third if the total economic output of the country”! Seriously? So Cork city and county with a population of 529,000 people out of a national population of 4.7 million people accounts for 33% of economic output even though it has only 11% of the population. Seriously amazing. I am in awe. Poor Dublin with a population of 1.35 million only accounts for another 42% of GDP. So based on your estimate Dublin and Cork and accounts for 77% of the entire economic output of the Republic despite having less than half the population. Moreover Cork is incomparably wealthier than Dublin.
I suggest that your statement about Cork economic output is wrong. Very wrong.
The LUTS plan for Cork going back to the late 70s had a light rail system in the project but never was acted on due to the cost , a smaller city like Cork can benefit from these types of transport platforms better than already built up cities like Dublin as it helps the city grow and you can add to them as the city grows they also help with economic advancement , why wait until it has to be justified , justify it on the basis of helping the city grow and then it will pay for its self down the line ..
Taking Dublins system as an example, A green line would run through the leafy suburbs of ballintemple and Douglas. A red line would take in ballyvolane and knocknaheeny.
@David: Aw another person with an attitude about Cork when projects are talked about the biggest county in the country
and a population of 500,000 thousand people ..
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