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FIANNA FÁIL SENATOR Darragh O’Brien today hit out at “the government’s mishandling” of the property tax issue. O’Brien called on the ruling parties to “shelve the proposal until concrete steps are taken to ease the country’s mortgage arears crisis and we see jobs and economic growth returned”.
Earlier today the Department of Finance said it will be up to the Revenue Commissioners, and not ministers, to decide how the forthcoming property tax is paid.
However it will remain up to the Cabinet to decide whether the controversial tax will be levied based on the value of someone’s property, the value of the land their house is built on, or charged on a flat-rate uniform basis.
O’Brien said the government have “made an utter mess of the property tax issue from day one”. He described the initial household charge as a “disaster” with almost 40 per cent of the population unable or unwilling to pay the €100 charge.
The Senator said it is “anyone’s guess” how the government judged this as the right time to put a new property tax system in place as people deal with cuts and the mortgage arrears crisis. He said:
When 40 per cent of the country cannot or will not pay €100, how many of them are likely to agree to €800 or €900? We have a huge section of the population in this country on middle incomes who are squeezed to breaking point and something has got to give.
O’Brien said a more realistic and common sense approach is needed and called on the government to go back to the drawing board.
“The Government needs to prioritise efforts to address the mortgage arrears crisis first and get people back to work before introducing any new charges on people’s homes,” he added.
A department spokesperson said today that no final decision has been made by the government on the tax.
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A morally unjust tax from a morally bankrupt government following foreign orders. Labour should collapse this sham before they condemn themselves to political oblivion.
Tootrue! I’m in complete agreement, however Labour are in complete oblivion already! I’m still a bit bemused by a FF nobody having the brass neck to complain about a government being incompetent though. The country just ambles on plunging from one crisis To another. It’s at the stage when it’s every man for himself. So much for That clown Kenny spouting about us getting a better deal after Spain refused to take on bank bailout money as sovereign debt. I’m well aware that our deficit is still way too high, but this crowd are obsessed by trying to get it under control far too quickly. It’s complete madness to be taking more money out of an economy that on the brink of collapse. We are heading for complete anarchy.
If they were ‘obsessed by trying to get it (the defecit) under control” they would be using the billions being handed to bondholders needlessly to bridge the gap. Under those circumstances they might have some moral authority to look for us to be crucified even more than we are already. This governments obsession is with pleasing foreign entities and not upsetting party donors/rich folk.
Lifetime Labour voter by the way. Thats all gone now unless they do the decent thing.
Sinn Fein are exactly what Ireland needs, politicians with backbones and principles.
Jesus they should cut the comment threads on some of these things. I get sick of looking at clowns blurting the same old bullshit hyperbolae. “morally bankrupt”, “foreign orders”, “political oblivion”?
It’s a comment that a senator made not an episode of Political Star Wars.
If something of worth happens you’ll literally have run out of words for describing it.
The concept of left wing supporters opposing property taxes is amusing beyond belief as most left wing parties wanted such taxes for years. It also flys in the face of numerous all-party and external taxation commissions which for years have called on various government to widen the tax base so that it is not all taken from income.
And the suggestion from anybody in Fianna Fail, who were the ones who signed us up to a document that REQUIRED us to introduce such a tax, now opposing it just shows that nothing has changed in Fianna Fail. Opportunists to the last man and woman.
Jim: the property tax system should have been reformed when we were “rich”. Things have changed. Now is not the time.
This is just an excuse to keep their snouts at the trough. They didn’t reform it back then because the indirect windfall property taxes were paying their wages. They want to install it now so they can avoid reform.
@censored, “we” were never rich, “we” were simply binging on cheap credit and short term populism courtesy of the ultimate gombeen government….
@censored – Yes it would have been better if it had been introduced way back when it was called for. But better late than never. Our tax base is way too narrow and it has to be widened. It may take years but our economy will eventually recover and you can be sure that if we wait until it does there will be people at the point saying we can’t risk introducing new taxes at that point because it will ruin the recovery. We have to start the process of reform at some point.
Yeah Conor, that’s why I put “rich” in quotes.
Jim, understand what you mean and I theoretically agree with the property tax/widening the tax base argument … but only if there is public sector reform and cuts to income tax. Ireland raises 39 billion euros a year in taxes. That should be enough. Where does all the money actually go?
so, the household charge which was ostensibly in the common good and related to local services has now morphed into a property tax collected centrally to benefit a central government paying the bills for failed private banks. not fooling anyone. …
Is Fianna Fail not the reason why a property tax is needed ASAP in the first place.
The property tax is not needed ‘asap’. Between now and the budget 10 years worth of the household charge will be shovelled out to bondholders that we don’t have to pay. While the government is acting in such a way, the narrative that they must impose more crippling austerity is a myth and laughable as well.
I admire your persistence with hammering the truth home tootrue, I’m wore down with it. It’s beginning to look futile to me.
Personally I could not care less what any politician says but the fact is that this tax is the final straw. How much more has the average paye worker in this country got to pay before all our earnings are paid directly in to this governments bank account? Labour are doomed & should be utterly ashamed of themselves. FG are as bad as they ever were. How as a country are we meant to create employment & economic growth when our hard earned cash is all going to pay bond holders gambling debts leaving no cash to spend on anything except the next hair brained tax scheme dream of the ruling hypocritical class?
Comment of The Century, Bryan.
I stopped reading after the first two words of this article..
Yep when ever FF is mentioned I tune out also, we are bankrupt that crowd is morally bankrupt and should disband.
we all know what is going to happen here value based tax with no link to ability to pay,, FG are joke if you are poor, your best friend if you are rich!!
SITE tax is the way to go,, in conjunction with base point tax and linked to ability to pay.
We do need this tax though, most to the WEALTH in this country is linked to property (75%) so if you have more you pay more (provided FG make no waivers for friends/contributors)
I refused to pay last home charge, but will pay this if it is fair and transparent.
Fair play to Darragh, his party set international records for the most expensive bank bailout in history, the greatest property crash, made global headlines due to the wholesale culture of corruption between then and property developers, knocked 25% of the size of the economy but this has to be the ultimate global record setting statement for sheer brass neck and shamelessness. All in less than a decade. Wow.
O’Brien is one of the most popular TD’s if donations are a measure, (5th biggest take in the country a few years back). Among his donors in 2008 were such property developers as Gannon Homes, Newpark Holdings, Albany Homes, Sanar Properties, Flynn and O’Flaherty… (Donations disclosed by TDs, Senators and MEPs for 2008, Standards in Public Office
Commission)http://www.sipo.gov.ie/en/DonationsDisclosed/TDsSenatorsandMEPs/DonationsdisclosedbyTDsSenatorsandMEPsfor2008/Name,10001,en.htm
FF’s are a parody of themselves. This fellow’s donation list over the years reads like the filing index of Nama.
I think I might have a go at writing a plug-n for Google Chrome that replaces the words “Fianna Fail” with “those fcuking w*nkers” or a pre-defined phrase of your choice.
The only thing Fianna Fail should do is disband – they are the reason we are in this mess.
Disbanded then have about half of them reunited in Mountjoy gaol.
Where were you Darragh when FF were agreeing to this. Must have been on a day off.
FG have along woth Lab just announced they are craven liars.This tax was mooted as being for local services,therefore it should have been collected locally with transperancy as to where it is spent.Collected by revenue into a central fund yeah instills confidence that it will be spent locally.Have to say this but various bondholders around Europe and the World must be pi##ing themselves with laughter at the Irish taxpayer.Where else in the world can you make a bet and Heads you win/Tails you win.
The alternative parties need to be considered. I will be giving SF my vote in the next election.
FF should disband and decommission their rhetoric!
Its a tax that has to be paid like all the rest of them. People have no problem spending 100 euro in 2-3 weeks on alcohol. typical uneducated irish.
Only one word describes you Tony R (Special)
Nice generalisation there Tony but of course i assume you can point to studies that backup your well thought out point.
i can yea
Nice generalisation there Tony,of course you can point to some studies etc to prove what you say,or are you just saying it for giggles.
Sorry Tony posted twice lost first response had to retype,then it showed up.Well if you can please reference them i’m curious to see how you arrived at your insightful comment.
Tony i didn’t make any personnel comment to your intelectual abilities or lack thereof so either backup your comment without insult or put away the keypad like a good boy.
No answer Tony?beginning to think your initials are the start of a five letter word that describes you am i wrong?
It’s approx €1.52 a week! How people cannot afford that? In all countries people are paying property taxes, ground taxes etc. if I can afford one pint of Guinness a week I can afford this charge – so I paid it.
Joanna the 1.52 is irrelevent its what comes after.The tax will not be spent locally it will go into the central fund.Since you brought up other countries,i have family living in the north and uk they pay between 1000 and 1300 pa.But they get a bill and services linked to payment,bin collection school transport to name but two.Other countries it is the same,we already pay for every service we get water at the moment being an exception.
You,d be better off spending the 100 euros on the girl
in your picture.
I am certain you would get a better return on your investment.
Joanne, I think people’s problem is that at present people who earn a million euro a year are paying the same as people who are on minimum wage. Not even taking account of the quality of the house. This is not a fair tax system and clearly benefits the rich.
A fair property tax is one thing but in ireland no matter how it’s calculated some people will bare the brunt of it.
If the tax is based on value, Dublin people will be hammered and if it’s based on site measurements rural homes will be.
Either way somebody will be hit hard and in these economic times many homeowners simple won’t be able to afford this.
Lack of disposable income is what kills economies isn’t it??
I go to work to earn money ,I pay tax to the government so they can supply services .What little is left I can do with what I want burn it ,drink it or give it away and it’s none of Tony’s business ,can I suggest you move to North Korea where there is no private property (or food).As for this tax ,anyone who believes this won’t be increased massively year on year, until it becomes a heinous burden on property owners is delusional .
lets see the proof in your statement there Tony
@Tony just go rev up and F off
Start with university professors,td’s,an Taoiseach,the president and then heads of semi state company’s then rte presenters and management . After that hospital consultants and abolish all the quangos they promised. Cut all their pay by 50 per cent and then introduce property tax I wouldn’t have any complaints
Opposition Senator opposes Government? I can see how that came as a surprise to everyone.
There may be trouble ahead, people may be quiet! But its a Dangerous quiteness, A calming before the storm type!
this year the top 10% of wealthy Ireland are underpaying their taxes by 42%, and they want to blame the poor.
So they can charge us whatever they like and cal, it sum “tax” or another. If they actualli spent as much time thinking about how to get people back to work, and this country working again and getting rid of banks than they do about how next to scrape nearli every penny off of people to pay for their lavish lifestyles we might actualli get somewhere. Maybe if the government actually thought about projects that would initiate jobs then people would actually get up and look for work but as it stands the rich get richer and the poor are made poorer and have to suffer on…this country went down the toilet after the Celtic tiger years when Bertie ahern wasted over €10 BILLION on building motorways alone, yet now we are the one.s that have to pay the TROIKA €3.5 BILLION for what exactly?? We the people aren’t the ones who went and asked them for the loans and we certainly didn’t see that money so why the hell should we be the ones to pay it back. We have a load of money grabbing hypocrites running this country since 1997 and not once have they thought about the people all they are trying to do is please Germany . Why doesnt every single member of the government take a pay cut , ENDA Kenny did but that was of €14,000 yet 3 months later he raised it back up by €11,000 now I’m sorry but he gets €214,000 a year + expenses etc. for what???
Building motorways in this country was not a waste of money.
So your telling me spending. €10 BILLION on building motorways wasn’t a mistake…this country didn’t need a motorway…there was plans. For the primary and secondary roads to be fixed which would have cost a lot less but instead Bertie took the high ground nd tried making a name for himselve by bringing the motorways into Ireland…sorry but €10 BILLION is a waste on. Roads that to this day aren’t even finished yet. I mean why have motorways when it’s the primary and secondary roads. That people drive on to get to work etc and most of them are in unbelievable conditions!
YAWN!
Fianna Fáil in with the obligatory populist comment of the day.
Aren’t Senators supposed to keep out of political matters at any rate?
“Aren’t Senators supposed to keep out of political matters at any rate?” – WHAT????
They are National Legislators as are TD’s. It’s their job to involved in political matters!
Idiotic comment of the day.
@Joanna, where did you get €1.52 a week,? the €100 is only a first registration fee, you could end up forking out
up to €450 to €1000 per year when this shower make their minds up as to how to calculate the final charge.
And remember they have NO REGULATION on valuation of land or property it has always been in the hands of the demand and estate agents upping the price by saying a higher offer has just being offered
Will be interesting to see how Ivor Callely handles this bill.
On the actual content of this, I have to agree. We have seen that large sections of the population had a problem getting the cash together for the existing €100 charge. This will put families into even more hardship. If this government want to raise their tax take may I suggest that they focus on creating the conditions for private business to expand and hire on new employees thereby raising the PAYE and PRSI intake while cutting the social welfare bill. The capital investment program of the last governmental re-announced last month isn’t sustainable long term. Real measures needed for SME’s including a cut to corporation rates. Household charge should be used to replace that revenue to local government along with additional cuts to waste in civil service management class.
Same heads appearing with the “disband” comments as per usual. Must be a busy day at HQ in Parnell Square. Fact of the matter folks is that Ireland is a democracy which ever way you look at it and as democrats we may differ as hell with other people’s opinion but I for one will fight ’til the death for anyone right to air said opinion. 400,000 people voted for Fianna Fáil to be their voice in this Dáil. Those getting offended when they do just that should really tone down the bile.
i say get rid of the senate and put all that money towards the property tax. could we not do that. may be one r two councils as well. were we not to get real change when Enda and the lads got in
49%, wow, thats 49% who wont be voting for this government in the next General election.
that should scare the hell out of them.
FG & Lab ran the councils that gave much of the mad planning permissions. This tax is one that will mean many young people who bought apartments will never be able to sell when they need to trade up. Will have massive social affect on young people settling down and hoping to raise a family. Just like bin charges it will double within 3 years. Get acceptance at a low amount and then ramp it up. The media talk of this in such black and white terms, but it’s not. For example many new homes built after 2000 have had management companies imposed by the local authority as part of the planning permission. They are not getting the same level of service supplied by the local authority as other older estates. For every euro spend in the economy generates another, so the government will pull 1 billion out of the economy in real terms and not just the 500 mill this tax will raise before it double and triples in the next few years.
SF will abolish property taxes. Unlike FG and FF, SF know how to run a country.
Rich coming from a FF senator whose party destroyed the Irish economy. We wouldn’t need a property tax if it wasn’t for the demands of the IMF et al which FF foisted on Ireland because of their greed and avarice
Vote SF into power! There’ll be no more taxes ( except for the stinking rich, those w**kers we know exist but are never us, oh no ), there’ll be no more unemployment ( unless you don’t want to work, if that’s the case, then we’ll double your benefits! ), we’ll give the two fingers to this Germans just like we did the Brits ( except in the North, where we’re more than apply to have cordial relations ), they’ll be no more nasty austerity ( except in the North ), we’ll dump the Euro and print enough money for everybody! Spend and spend to boost the economy and when you run out we’ll print more! ( we’re forgetting the fact that we’re left wing ). Happiness all round and smile if you’re Irish! Then we’ll quietly deal with the troublesome situation if all those “non-Irish” types hanging around. Nasty foreigners, dirty foreigners……
wouldnt need the charge if it wasnt for fianna fail.
Absolutely but FG and LAB want it too. They need a bigger pot to tap in order to keep the party going.
Casino capitalism destroyed Ireland yet people still vote for FG and FF. I will be voting SF in the next election.
What a load of bollox
SF never run any government, and with terrorist at the top, I don’t think they will.
It’s not an entirely unfair assessment.
While it’s not populist tripe (apparently, you CAN be a Socialist & oppose a household tax… Who knew?) it is pointing out the obvious; while financing is needed, the way in which this tax was hastily rolled out was a complete shambles. This is not to say that new sources of funding shouldn’t be found, but that, for now, this particular disaster should be shelved, until all the kinks have been worked out.
Olive has a fair point actually. Bin charges are included in the property tax in the UK. And yes everyone pays, regardless as to whether you own your house or not. Rebates are applied to those who can least afford to pay. In Ireland, it seems homeowners are being made to subsidise the so called services provided to those who rent their homes. That does t seem very fair to me, especially when you take into account the massive stamp duty a high percentage of homeowners have already contributed. Therefore it’s not a property tax at all. It’s a homeowners tax. And even if that homeowner has a huge mortgage, he or she can barely service ( not to mention the value of home having plummeted ) said homeowner still has to pay this tax. If as is claimed by government, that this tax is needed to ensure services such as libraries and basic street lighting can be maintained , then does this mean only homeowners can avail of such services? Why should someone who bought their house and paid a lot of tax in the process have to subsidise someone ( who might be in a far stronger financial position) just because he or she bought their home?
I find it interesting people using the “all the other countries have one” excuse. Well in England for example they have services to go with it. Not to mention EVERYONE pays – not just home owners. Also the cost of living in regards to VAT is higher here. If we are matching other countries lets match them on all issues – not just the ones where they can get money out of us.
Just a quick question, does anyone know , to date, how many people (approx) have NOT paid the charge?
49 per cent.
Or so we are told remember who is telling us that figure too
Old old old old old old old old old old old old old old old old. Lots of moaning, no solutions.
@ Paul Mallon. Substite phrase for Fianna F?il. LOL!
For the first time I hear some fianna failer having some sense.
Actually it’s 3 or 4 separate taxes that are required. (1) A tax on all land by square meter (The more land someone owns the more they pay). Different bands could be used to distinguish between prime farm land, urban and bog etc. (2) A tax on all buildings by cubed meter (The bigger the building the bigger the tax). (3) A Council tax for services (The better serviced areas would pay more than those with little or no services).
Therefore someone with a huge house on a huge plot of land in a desirable well serviced area would pay more tax than someone with a small house on a small plot of land in an area with no services.
While the mention of extra taxes may upset some people, I believe what really pisses people off is how those taxes are being spent.
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