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PTSB says it won't pay corporation tax over the next 21 years

PTSB said the “accounting principle” is something it is obliged to comply with.

PERMANENT TSB will not pay corporation tax for 21 years, the Oireachtas Finance Committee was told this morning.

The revelation comes days after AIB acknowledged that it will not pay corporation tax for over 20 years.

PTSB said the “accounting principle” is something it is obliged to comply with.

Under tax and accounting rules, known as deferred tax assets (DTA), banks are allowed to offset previous losses made during the recession against future tax bills.

In 2009, the then Finance Minister Brian Lenihan sought to prevent bailed-out banks carrying massive historic losses into the future as assets. In 2013, Michael Noonan reversed the rule change which benefits the bank lenders.

Shane O’Sullivan, Director of Operations for the bank, said this is “not unique to banking” adding that it allows businesses to carry their losses forward.

This will result in tax being deferred for 21 years, until 2038.

State-owned banks 

Sinn Féin’s Pearse Doherty pointed out that 75% of the bank is owned by the taxpayer, adding that it is as a result of a law change by Fine Gael and Labour that this avoidance of paying corporation tax is possible.

However, Doherty said good work of the bank had to be acknowledged also, adding that he welcomed the announcement to the committee that PTSB is to allow up to 2,000 home loan holders in trouble avail of a mortgage-to-rent scheme.

Earlier this week, AIB announced its new mortgage-to-rent scheme, making it the first bank in Ireland to establish such a programme.

The bank is working with David Hall of the Irish Mortgage Holders Organisation (IMHO) and the new iCare Housing company to roll-out the scheme.

Under the scheme, iCare Housing will buy troubled properties, which will then be rented back to the homeowners. They will then be given the opportunity to later buy back their property at the discounted price it was purchased for.

O’Sullivan told TDs and senators today that it is yet to establish what “preferred partner” it will work with on the plan.

He said the scheme will be launched in the coming months. The bank aims to write to at least 200 customers it believes can avail of the scheme by the end of the year.

Earlier this month, the bank announced that some of its buy-to-let mortgage customers who are in arrears will be allowed surrender the property to the bank for sale, with the remainder of the debt being written off.

The bank said it has written to about 600 customers it believes could avail of the offer. Customers have 30 days to accept the deal, explained O’Sullivan, who added that to date the “first uptake is quite limited”.

However, he said he expects a lot of customers will take up the offer in the long-term.

Jeremy Masding, Chief Executive Officer of PTSB said he was “deeply grateful” for the help and support of the Irish government, stating that he can only repay that support by ensuring the bank returns to a profitable business.

“In a nutshell, we are performing well,” he said.

Read: Permanent TSB to offer some landlords a chance to write-off their debt>

Read: Quarterly charges jump from €3.18 to €18 for some Permanent TSB customers>

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    Mute Al coholic
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    Sep 28th 2017, 12:54 PM

    Well then I don’t think I’ll pay my mortgage interest for the next 21 years and see how that works out

    601
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    Mute Brinster
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    Sep 28th 2017, 1:16 PM

    @Al coholic:

    But the State owns 75%.

    So if they make profits and pay a dividend, then the State gets the full 75% – not just 12.5%.

    If their profit is €1 billion, we’ll get €750 million

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    Mute iohanx
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    Sep 28th 2017, 1:21 PM

    @Brinster: unfortunately not many understand the vagaries of it all.

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    Mute Aidan Mitchell
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    Sep 28th 2017, 1:30 PM

    @Al coholic: but you don’t have a mortgage with ptsb…

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    Mute Maurice Bourke
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    Sep 28th 2017, 1:32 PM

    @Brinster:
    Well said

    17
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    Mute ktsiwot
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    Sep 28th 2017, 1:37 PM

    @Brinster: As it stands you are perfectly correct, However if the government has the same policy with PSTB as it has with AIB then the aim is the privatize the existing 75% which should be done in the next 5 years, 10 years at a huge stretch. This means over the next 11-16 year period they will pay no tax and at the same time be non government owned. If right was right this non tax paying exemption should be cut off before it costs the state money in taxes as it will well before the 21 year period is up.

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    Mute Brinster
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    Sep 28th 2017, 1:52 PM

    @Piarais Mac Maoláin: @ktiswot:

    Yes – but this would be factored into the price of any sale.

    The Prospectus Document (usually about 150 pages) would include specific reference to this (probably totaling 10 pages) with an accompanying, audited valuation.

    Companies don’t make billion euro investments without knowing every single thing about the party they are acquiring.

    And the valuation would reflect any deferred tax asset – they same way it would reflect any asset.

    26
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    Mute Ryan Carroll
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    Sep 28th 2017, 3:57 PM

    @Piarais Mac Maoláin: No the 21 years is just an estimate, were not saying in advance “you have a free pass for 21 years”, it was just an answer to a question by an (opposition, ergo powerless) TD. Revenue will see what their profits are year on year v losses and make it’s own calculations when they start making real cash again they will be taxed, on top of any money we get from shares.

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    Mute Con Murphy
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    Sep 28th 2017, 4:08 PM

    @Al coholic:
    Stay in your homes fight the banks.

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    Mute Con Murphy
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    Sep 28th 2017, 4:09 PM

    @Brinster:
    God bless. You actually believe this.

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    Mute Con Murphy
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    Sep 28th 2017, 4:10 PM

    @iohanx:
    Vagaries.You sound like a banker yourself.

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    Mute Jeffrey McMahon
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    Sep 28th 2017, 7:16 PM

    @Brinster: dividends are not paid on a euro for Euro basis. You would get cents in the euro for every share, that assumes the company even declares a dividend which they do not have to, it is entirely at their whim. So let’s say we own 1 billion worthe of shares, they announce a 10 cent dividend, we get 100 million. Actually, we own 75% of shares, we get 75 million. You have added an extra zero in your own calculations. With corporation tax we would be entitled to 120 million on a billion of profits that would be guaranteed have to be paid compared to dividends which are discretionary.

    2
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    Mute Brinster
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    Sep 28th 2017, 8:12 PM

    @Jeffrey McMahon: Jeffrey you are so completely wrong it is beyond belief. Hope to God you don’t work in finance

    The State owns 75% of PTSB. If they declare a dividend of €1 billion, the State gets €750 million.

    Period.

    And if they decide not to declare a dividend, as majority shareholder the State can replace the Board with someone who will.

    Honestly where do people come up with this nonsense?

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    Mute Brinster
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    Sep 28th 2017, 8:18 PM

    @Jeffrey McMahon: Honestly Jeff – it’s worrying how wrong you are. If they declare a dividend of 10 cents per share, and there are 1 billion shares in existence, then the declared dividend is €100 million – NOT €1 billion.

    If that €100 million is the sum of the profits it would be completely illegal to declare a €1 billion dividend – dividends cannot exceed profits.

    We get 75% of the declared dividend.

    If it’s €1 Billion then we get €750 million. Period.

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    Mute Jeffrey McMahon
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    Sep 28th 2017, 10:01 PM

    @Brinster: look up dividend theory then get a calculator for your maths. You are correct in one thing, if a 10 cent dividend is declared on €1 billion of shares that’s an overall dividend of €100 million, since we own 75% of shares we have an entitlement to €75 million assuming a dividend is declared. Not the €750 million you stated. Your maths are wrong. That would be the dividend on €100 billion of shares or a €1 dividend for every €1 share held. Both unlikely scenarios.

    Let’s lay it out for you:
    1,000,000,000 x 0.10 = 100,000,000
    100,000,000 x 75% = 75,000,000

    Now dividends are not calculated as a percentage of profits. If as you originally stated we had profits of €1 billion, at 12.5% tax that would be:

    1,000,000,000 x 12.5% = 125,000,000

    That’s an extra €50 million.

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    Mute Jeffrey McMahon
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    Sep 28th 2017, 10:24 PM

    @Brinster: what is truly worrying is the amount of likes your original comment got. As it involves the below assumptions.

    A) the company declares a dividend in the first place.
    B) the company devotes the entirety of it’s profits to dividends.
    C) they announce a €1 dividend per €1 share.

    An extremely unlikely scenario in each case. That’s even assuming it reaches the €1 billion profit target. In all likelihood it would need to vastly exceed that target to get to your €750 million expectation. Because the government’s shareholding is not nowhere near €1 billion, it owns 340,661,653 of shares (from PTSB’s own website), at their current share price of 1.85, the value of government shares is only roughly €630 million (rounded to nearest million). So on a €1 dividend per €1 share worth we still won’t get €750 million. All this information can easily be Googled.

    2
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    Mute Brinster
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    Sep 29th 2017, 2:35 PM

    @Jeffrey McMahon:

    I can’t let this lie on the off-chance you actually work or study in this field.

    Declared dividend = Div per share x Number of shares.

    That’s it.

    It’s that simple.

    So if the declared dividend is €1billion, it is completely irrelevant whether there are 100 shares, 1,000 shares or 100 billion shares.

    The owner of 75% of those shares gets 75% of the dividend. End of story.

    We own 75% of PTSB. If they declare a divisend of €1 billion (however unlikely), we get €750 million.

    That is the point I was making and it is completely correct.

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    Mute Brinster
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    Sep 29th 2017, 2:38 PM

    @Brinster:

    Jeff you start with the AMOUNT of the dividend.

    Divide it by the number of shares.

    That equals the Div per share.

    A declared dividend of €1 billion means you pay out €1 billion.

    It does not mean you pay out €100 million or any other figure.

    Div of €1B = Pay €1B.

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    Mute Jeffrey McMahon
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    Sep 29th 2017, 6:11 PM

    @Brinster: Ah I see where you are coming from now. You are talking about them declaring a dividend of €1 billion. Which ties in exactly with what I have been saying. They would need to apportion every cent of €1 billion in profits to dividends. Or have profits greater than €1 billion. Since they would need to declare a dividend of €2.20 for every share. Divide €1 billion of declared dividend by their total shareholding available on their own website.

    I correct myself then, your maths are correct, you are just working off a set of completely unrealistic and wildly optimistic assumptions to say we are better off with this highly uncertain income stream compared against the guaranteed income of taxation.

    Hope you are not someone’s financial advisor but knowing this country you are probably working in the department of finance. Or in a PR position.

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    Mute Declan Moran
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    Sep 28th 2017, 12:56 PM

    Ah no bother, sure suit yourselves and there will be no problem. What is this country turning into ? I think I’ll just defer paying my mortgage for the 27 yrs left in it.

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    Mute Fred Jetson
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    Sep 28th 2017, 1:18 PM

    @Declan Moran:

    Knowing this country, if you did that you’d be handed a free and larger house by the government.

    40
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    Mute Ryan Carroll
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    Sep 28th 2017, 1:33 PM

    @Declan Moran: Did you read the story? It’s not them refusing to pay it, it’s legal to defer taxes in some circumstances when your company is that deep in debt.

    As someone pointed out below, if were not foolish enough to sell the banks off before they pay back the cost of the crash (which would be incredibly stupid) then we own nearly all their shares and will get the money back in other ways, so as long as we keep a hold of those shares we win either way

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    Mute David Murphey
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    Sep 28th 2017, 1:49 PM

    @Declan Moran: all businesses are allowed to offset losses against profits for tax purposes, not just banks.

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    Mute Jho Harris
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    Sep 28th 2017, 2:25 PM

    @David Murphey: But don’t you think it odd that a bank and the term principle appear in the same sentence?

    5
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    Mute Nick Allen
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    Sep 28th 2017, 2:25 PM

    @Declan Moran:

    The same accounting principle applies to every company in the country. You only pay tax on profits and you can carry forward past losses as ‘credit’ against future profits.

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    Mute Con Murphy
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    Sep 28th 2017, 4:11 PM

    @Declan Moran:
    Lots of people are actually doing this and have been for some time.

    1
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    Mute Gulliver Foyle
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    Sep 28th 2017, 4:48 PM

    @Ryan Carroll: it’s actually not legal to receive state aid and then claim the pre-aid losses against future deferred profits. The fact that they did not manifest their losses means they are illegal, regardless of the fudge in the law to allow them out of this. Ireland inc. will be brought to court for unfair state aid in the EU, and lose. FG will fight this and continue to allow the banks to evade taxes.

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    Mute Kevin Slater
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    Sep 28th 2017, 12:59 PM

    Referendum on changing this I think

    56
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    Mute Chemical Brothers
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    Sep 28th 2017, 1:08 PM

    @Kevin Slater: To change what exactly?

    28
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    Mute Dave O Keeffe
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    Sep 28th 2017, 1:18 PM

    @Kevin Slater: is it in the constitution?

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    Mute Ne
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    Sep 28th 2017, 1:26 PM

    @Kevin Slater: Which part of the Irish constitution governs international accounting standards?

    18
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    Mute Ryan Carroll
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    Sep 28th 2017, 1:35 PM

    You can just change the law, but it’s common practice the world over to be able to defer tax as a company when you are this deep in debt.

    We’ve only had constitutional referendums so far, but there is nothing stopping us from havinga an “ordinary” referendum on anything we want, the President can even trigger one with a petititon from the Senate and Dail opposition, another great power that’s never been used and was never even dicsussed or brought up in that utter farce of an election last time.

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    Mute Nick Allen
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    Sep 28th 2017, 2:29 PM

    @Kevin Slater:

    Have you any idea what you are talking about?

    7
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    Mute Franklin Roosevelt
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    Sep 28th 2017, 1:04 PM

    Keep the corporation tax at 12.5%, it’ll attract great businesses and we’ll still rake in the tax revenue

    *Massive fraudulent corporations evade tax through careful loopholes that were purposely designed by lawmakers, who now act shocked that they exist*

    58
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    Mute LITTLEONE
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    Sep 28th 2017, 1:06 PM

    Sure why not? Isn’t that Ireland for you. Loopholes for banks and corporations galore.

    51
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    Mute Brinster
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    Sep 28th 2017, 1:41 PM

    @LITTLEONE: But we get 75% of the profits as we own 75% of the bank……

    19
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    Mute David Murphey
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    Sep 28th 2017, 1:51 PM

    @LITTLEONE: all businesses are permitted to offset losses against profits for tax purposes.

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    Mute Nick Allen
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    Sep 28th 2017, 2:31 PM

    @LITTLEONE:

    It’s not a loophole

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    Mute Tommy Roche
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    Sep 28th 2017, 2:48 PM

    @Brinster: We don’t get a share of the profits. We get a dividend on our shares. Dividends are set by the board of the bank and most certainly are not as simple as saying “You own 75% of shares so you get 75% of profits paid as a dividend”. It’s open to the board to pay 100% of profit out as a dividend, but equally they could decide to pay out 1%, or even nothing.

    8
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    Mute Rory J Leonard
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    Sep 28th 2017, 4:11 PM

    @Tommy Roche:

    For as long as 21 years is the forecast to absorb 2017 aggregate losses and therefore no corporation tax charge during that interval, I wouldn’t bank on an annual dividend anytime this side of 2038.

    2
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    Mute Gulliver Foyle
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    Sep 28th 2017, 4:55 PM

    @Tommy Roche: and as the state is not interested in returning value to the state, the board always reinvest profits into the bank (which affects non-state executive members bonus) and vote for dividends to be close to zero. We don’t make any money from the banks in this policy until we sell them. That’s why seeking is the only option for a return while we refuse to enforce commercial standard dividends on profits. Banks not paying corporation taxes thorough the “Noonan” loophole (it is a loophole, as it was discovery out in place for baked or banks only) is only a further kick in the teeth. It’s almost as if it was set up to return profits to individuals with shareholdings.

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    Mute Chemical Brothers
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    Sep 28th 2017, 1:08 PM

    Most commentators here don’t appear to have even a basic grasp of how accumulated losses are (and always have been) treated for any business big or small…except sole trader domestic landlords for some reason.

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    Mute Ryan Carroll
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    Sep 28th 2017, 1:40 PM

    @Chemical Brothers: They are so used to looking at wonton corruption that even when the banks or political leadership is doing something perfectly legal (not a loophole either) they still don’t beleive it’s on the up and up.

    After these banks blackmailed us and the govt into bailing them out from their own wrecklessness can you blame them for being cynical though? Them and their international pals put the country and the entire western world through a decade of poverty and misery for their own greed. Then started spreading the flat out lie that they’d paid the bailout back (in the US and here that lie) and we even made a profit on it.

    18
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    Mute Alan Farrell
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    Sep 28th 2017, 1:10 PM

    Great! I’m guessing this saving will allow them to drop mortgage interest rates so, right? Right?

    29
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    Mute Barbara Edwards
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    Sep 28th 2017, 1:01 PM

    Sure of course they’re obliged to comply, it works in their favour.

    23
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    Mute Frank Dubogovik
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    Sep 28th 2017, 1:12 PM

    @Barbara Edwards: I liked that line myself……tis a bitch but sure we have to do it like

    19
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    Mute Ciaran Fairley
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    Sep 28th 2017, 1:02 PM

    Sick of banks!!! Cant blame them though. They’re just exploiting a loophole that the government put in place. Blame the government! Sick of them too!!!

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    Mute Hurt Stoogie
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    Sep 28th 2017, 4:25 PM

    @Ciaran Fairley: It’s a not loophole

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    Mute Gulliver Foyle
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    Sep 28th 2017, 4:56 PM

    @Hurt Stoogie: shh… it’s 100% a deliberate loophole. And illegal in EU competition law as well, just wait.

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    Mute Adrian
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    Sep 28th 2017, 1:19 PM

    Just another thing that proves FG are not a centrist party. They are a capitalist party.

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    Mute Ryan Carroll
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    Sep 28th 2017, 1:46 PM

    @Adrian:

    They are our conservative party, FF are more centre because even though they’ve a few right wingers who are say antiabortion they are mostly progressive on economic issues (minimum wage, labour laws, equality laws, free education) and the centre left and left parties are obvious. All you have to do to spot the BS of FG being “centrists” is look at a bar chart on social housing contruction when there is a change in office from FF to FG it drops like a stone because their constituents already have houses and decent incomes (which of course they got from ‘hard work’ alone no socioeconomic advantages whatsoever nope) and don’t want “knackers” getting anything.

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    Mute Dave Doyle
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    Sep 28th 2017, 4:25 PM

    @Adrian: a neo-liberal conservative party, and pushing neo-liberal dogma for the privatisation of all public/social services. Some they are destroying to leave no alternative but to privatise them, the health service, public transport are but two. Water infrastructure was deliberately allowed deteriorate to the point it will take billions to put right, just to justify privatisation.
    Never forget FG are a minority government, and they stay in power courtesy of FF,who are also neo-liberal.

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    Mute Adrian
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    Sep 28th 2017, 4:49 PM

    @Ryan Carroll: Unfortunately the demographic of FG’s (and FF’s) most enthusiastic and loyal voters at election time means most of them aren’t concerned with the bigger picture, and don’t even bother educating themselves on who they are voting for. Reasons for voting for them amount to “I always voted for them, my father voted for them and his father before them”, and they’re gullible to the FG (and FF) bull and scaremongering.

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    Mute Derek
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    Sep 28th 2017, 1:17 PM

    And did the billions of euros of tax payers money not cover those losses, while all banks have been reporting healthy profits over the last few years?? “Accounting principles” my hoof! What a sick country.

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    Mute Paul O Riordan
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    Sep 28th 2017, 1:40 PM

    Myself and my wife are being dragged through the courts at present even though we’re paying fully including interest. Ba€tards are rotten to the core with the blessing of Fine Gael

    23
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    Mute Ryan Carroll
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    Sep 28th 2017, 1:53 PM

    @Paul O Riordan: Paul make sure you or your solicitor goes through their documents with a fine tooth comb. I’ve seen two things on this in the courts in the crash years:

    1. Them taking people to court for foreclosure and many don’t fight it and it’s just rubber stamped as a result, but nearly everyone who puts up a fight wins it’s amazing
    2. They were caught in a few countries doing this kinda automated summons thing where they were randomly taking people to courts to scare them into paying more before it got to the bench, or foreclosing on people with legitimate deals just so they could flip the house and make more.
    They’re tricky b—-rds, watch the fine print, question everything.

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    Mute Paul O Riordan
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    Sep 28th 2017, 2:49 PM

    @Ryan Carroll: thanks Ryan my solicitor is on top of it and I also have a pip helping. Boi are notorious for this. Cnunts

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    Mute Con Murphy
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    Sep 28th 2017, 3:58 PM

    @Paul O Riordan:
    Check out the Hub Ireland website.Also the Anti Eviction Taskforce. Lots of good help out there.

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    Mute Dave Doyle
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    Sep 28th 2017, 4:35 PM

    @Paul O Riordan: The Hub Ireland will put you in touch with a forensic accountant who will check your account. They’re not expensive, and will catch any and all mistakes, deliberate or not.

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    Mute Ian
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    Sep 28th 2017, 1:26 PM

    When are they launching the scheme that rewards those of us who didn’t engage in irresponsible borrowing but still ended up getting shafted?

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    Mute Aidan Mitchell
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    Sep 28th 2017, 1:33 PM

    Here we go again. The comments like another cess pit from people who are proving that they have no idea what this actually means and why.
    The Oh blame the government, or past governments on this “loophole” are out in force straight away.
    In fairness it was written that way but, the principle behind it makes total sense, especially by the fact that it’s 75% state owned.

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    Mute Con Murphy
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    Sep 28th 2017, 3:56 PM

    @Aidan Mitchell:
    Deluded. State owned, have you not copped yet that they own the state!
    How many bailouts will it take for you to open your eyes.

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    Mute Ryan Carroll
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    Sep 28th 2017, 4:01 PM

    @Con Murphy: They don’t own the state. We bailed them out to stop current accounts and savings accounts being dragged down if the banks went bust.

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    Mute Dave Doyle
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    Sep 28th 2017, 4:43 PM

    @Aidan Mitchell: Noonan in 2013 reversed the rule so banks pay no Corporation tax.
    Just another bit of Corporate welfare by the state. Just like Vulture funds pay 8,000 euro on 10 Billion of assets.

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    Mute Gulliver Foyle
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    Sep 28th 2017, 5:01 PM

    @Ryan Carroll: current accounts and savings accounts were never, ever at risk. They were always covered by liquidity rules and had “first dibs” in the event of capital flight, which was also not at risk except in the fake banks like Anglo. Institutions with non secure debt were at risk, as they always should be. That is who we bailed out.

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    Mute Gulliver Foyle
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    Sep 28th 2017, 5:04 PM

    @Aidan Mitchell: it doesn’t make sense to introduce a mechanism to avoid corporation taxes based on fictitious debts. These are profits there are being made in general day to day business as a health company, not as a state entity. The state ownership level is irrelevant, it is the other share holding that is avoiding tax while not taking on any of the debt.

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    Mute Primusdeo
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    Sep 28th 2017, 1:27 PM

    Angry very very angry. Uprisings and guillotines please.

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    Mute Eric
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    Sep 28th 2017, 1:19 PM

    What a disgrace of a gouvernnent..

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    Mute Stephen Maher
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    Sep 28th 2017, 4:42 PM

    This is obserd, PTSB didnt accept the loses, the irish tax payer did.
    Can paschal use the new communications Quango and give us the reason why ordinary workers and business ownerz who pay all of the taxes are being hung drawn and quarterd while this is allowed to happen????
    FFS like, enough is enough.

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    Mute Sandra Clifford
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    Sep 28th 2017, 2:22 PM

    Disgraceful

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    Mute Cram Wood
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    Sep 28th 2017, 3:09 PM

    Holy piles of steaming dung.
    Ireland is a political and crony cesspool.
    Should have had another rising during Easter 2016.

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    Mute Con Murphy
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    Sep 28th 2017, 3:51 PM

    Criminals. boycott all Banks. They owe us, not the other way round.

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    Mute John Deed
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    Sep 28th 2017, 2:06 PM

    Disgraceful. Change it Paschal. U have the power to do so.

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    Mute Con Murphy
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    Sep 28th 2017, 3:53 PM

    @John Deed:
    You mean the Donoghue guy with shares in Diageo/Guinness, dream on!

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    Mute Dave barrett
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    Sep 28th 2017, 3:20 PM

    And they were baled out why??.

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    Mute Con Murphy
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    Sep 28th 2017, 3:51 PM

    @Dave barrett:
    Because Irish govts are bought and paid for.

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    Mute Gulliver Foyle
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    Sep 28th 2017, 4:42 PM

    More evidence in the “Michael Noonan was a traitor” pile…

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    Mute Brian Whelan
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    Nov 27th 2017, 9:00 PM

    ‘If the American people ever knew how their banks worked there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning’ Henry Ford Auto manuf.
    ‘The issue that has passed down through the centuries and will have to be fought soorner or later is the people versus the banks’ Lord Acton British MP
    If the American people ever allow banks to control the issuence of their currency, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them
    ‘If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered…. I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies…. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs’ Thomas Jefferson US

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