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IF IRELAND WAS to follow the example of Luxembourg and make public transport free, it would cost the State at least an extra €600 million a year, Minister Shane Ross has said.
The government also has “no immediate plans” to begin looking into making this a reality either, Ross added.
The Transport Minister was responding to a question put to him via parliamentary question from Solidarity-PBP’s Richard Boyd Barrett.
In December, Luxembourg’s Prime Minister Xavier Bettel said free public transport on trains, trams and buses would be introduced from early 2020.
The tiny country of 600,000 inhabitants had more than 100 million passenger journeys on public transport in 2016. In Ireland, there were well over 100 million journeys on Dublin Bus alone.
A number of European cities provide some degree of free public transport, and Ross told Barrett that the objectives of such initiatives can be to “reduce traffic congestion, to attract people into cities for leisure purposes, and to provide environmental benefits”.
As highlighted earlier this week, Dublin fares poorly in terms of traffic congestion when it comes to our European counterparts, and was rated among the worst in a new global report.
Ireland’s environmental woes have been well documented, with the country well on course to miss vital emissions targets and face hefty fines.
Taxpayers already provide funding to the tune of €300 million as subvention for public service obligation (PSO) transport services and rural transport link services.
National Transport Authority (NTA) figures for 2017 show that passengers paid about €580 million in fares on subsidised bus and rail services.
Ross said: “Therefore, if such services were to be provided free to passengers, then the expected cost to the Exchequer would be in excess of the €580m collected in fares in 2017.”
This would be an additional cost to the €300 million for PSO services and the €95 million which covers the free travel scheme operated by the Department of Social Protection.
“So taking round approximate figures, the Deputy’s idea would cost the taxpayer about €600 million per year, in addition to the €400 million that the Exchequer already spends on public transport services,” the Minister added.
And this is just the cost of the actual services; it does not count the Exchequer investment in public transport infrastructure which in 2019 is about €350 million and will be rising sharply over the coming years.
This also does not count the likely additional cost associated for additional fleet, depots and drivers to meet the likely demand if fares were eliminated.
Ross said he had no immediate plans to conduct a cost-benefit analysis of introducing free public transport, but added he was interested in hearing about “innovative and radical ideas” that would meet the needs of passengers, encourage more people out of their cars, while alleviating congestion and helping to tackle climate challenges.
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Why European Union won’t send humanitarian aid to Ukraine so?
Ordinary people from European Union probably would send humanitarian aid to eastern Ukraine but the governments don’t care. They are up to their ears with the ‘best democracy in the world’ – the USA who unleashed too many wars in the last century and using its missiles now anywhere they want not asking anybody’s opinion under the pretence of bringing democracy but in reality ruining flourishing countries, people lives, destabilising whole regions. Russia never started a war, don’t mind western media, check somewhere else.
“Russia never started a war”
You can’t be serious?
I’d seriously like to hear from all the red-thumbers how Russia has never started a war like Victor claimed.
@Victor – ‘Russia has never started a war’ … Have you been reading Pravda’s History of the World or something?
You just name this long list of wars they have started and everybody will be happy. Off the top of my head, the three longest lasting and most disastrous wars have been
WW1 Germany, WW2 Germany, Vietnam USA, Iraq USA
“Downing of MH17″
US has satellite and radar evidence regarding the incident. If it actually supports their global propaganda +assertions+, then why haven’t they released it? Or do they need more time to manipulate/fabricate it?
And for those who think Christopher Bollyn’s argument too far fetched…
It is a fact that in 1967 Two Israeli warplanes repeatedly attacked the USS Liberty, an unarmed surveillance ship in the Eastern Mediterranean, killing 34 US servicemen. Surving officers and men have given testimony that they were in no doubt whatever as to who was responsible & that it was a deliberate act.
If the clinical psychopaths now running the US and Israeli policy can proudly justify the mass murder of children in Gaza, what else are they capable of?
One of the reasons most people find such things so hard to imagine is because they cannot process the idea of what it means for a human being to have the psychopathic condition.
When the psychpaths have control of two of the most powerful miltary states on Earth, and also the control over much of the Edward Bernays-ian mass media propaganda control machinery, what is there to stop them doing anything? Not human ‘empathy’ – they don’t have it.
Around 1% of the general population are believed to be clinically psychopathic. It is a particularly advantageous trait – utterly ruthless ambition and guile – for those seeking the highest offices of political and military power.
Is that what happened in Nazi Germany in the 1930s? The psychopathy of Hitler and his propaganda minister Goebbels who was an early and avid disciple of Edward Bernays’ techniques of mass media manipulation?
Looking around the world right now, the parallels are absolutely starkly evident.
And it is Israel and the US (under very substantial Israeli political control) involved in acts of war and aggression near everywhere it is happening.
Just as in the banking/finance pyramid scam bust, and the mass unemployment prodincing ‘Austerity’ that followed, I don’t see our sham ‘democratic’ systems actually representing the interests of the majority of ordinary citizens much anywhere.
@Andrew – Have you ever heard of the term ‘proxy war’? Look it up sometime and then get back to me.
Ethnic Cleansing can be achieved by 1) Kill them 2) Scare them so they run away and 3) Bomb their homes so they have to leave. The EU backed bombing of Eastern Ukraine is the first instance I am aware of where the EU has supported a campagin of ethnic cleansing. Every one knows you can’t live in a country if a large percentage of the population wants your ethnic group bombed and killed. Since the savage violence and desvastation has been perpertrated by the Army against civilians, civilian areas and homes it is very hard if not impossible to see a peaceful coming together of the 2 sides in one country again. Too many people have been killed by the Army including women and children. But then this was a deliberate stategy of ethnic cleansing. It is interesting that the scale of the attack has not been criticized and is in fact supported by the EU, has not been reported in main stram media and is supported by many on here which has included the use heavy artillery on civilian areas including Uragan and Grad Multiple Rocket launchers, battle tanks, 150mm Howitzers, Giatsint field guns, APC’s as well as Balitstic missiles against civilian areas. The scale of the destruction is immense. The human cost very hgih and avoidable. All it needed was for the EU/Eire to speak out against these horrendous attacks and it is shameful we’ve not done so. Worse still our refusal to speak out or even report the military offensive represents tacid approval of a process of ethnic cleansing.
Native Americans , Panama , Invasion of Grenada , Afghanistan ,invasion of Cuba ,Mexico [ from whom it annexed ” Arizona and California , . Invasion of USSR –
there are more -+ numerous proxy wars – some of worst being Indonesia , Chile ,Libya .
The US attitude to war is that it is necessary – as they have a war economy -summed up by Trumnas infanmous words
” Harry Truman spoke in the U.S. Senate on June 23, 1941: “If we see that Germany is winning,” he said, “we ought to help Russia, and if Russia is winning we ought to help Germany, and that way let them kill as many as possible.”
They really could not care less about Hitler – they would help him or be against him – whichever made the most killing / money .
It’s mad, they did the most in WW2, they stopped the Cold War, they have never started a war, but they the bad guys, I’m not pro Russia, just pro fact
Are you talking just solely on modern history .. ? Death toll for Iraq pails in comparison to Soviet invasion of Afghanistan or the Chechen wars or the numerous wars Russia has been involved in over the years. Also saying Germany started the first world war is a false statement technically. Vietnam also lowish death toll when you consider Chinese revolution or the Mongol invasions. Hey even the crusades racked up a bigger kill streak.
Your comment is an attack on America and Germany as a defense mechanism for Russia. Which as a nation has killed far more of its own population than any one else has.
“It’s mad, they did the most in WW2, they stopped the Cold War, they have never started a war, but they the bad guys, I’m not pro Russia, just pro fact”
You’re very much pro-Russian as you’re certainly not pro-fact. Russia has started a significant number of wars.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russia
I always find it amazing how people say the USSR did the most to end WW2 when they, together with the Nazis, were responsible for the invasion which kicked the whole war off in the first place.
”Vietnam also lowish death toll when you consider ”
- 5 million and counting – agent orange still having effect . It was sprayed to destroy land
”Death toll for Iraq pails in comparison to Soviet invasion of Afghanistan or the Chechen wars or the numerous wars Russia has been involved in over the years.”
U take one US war – and several USSR wars – please compare like with like . Add up all the killing that US has done since WW2
here is a list of some of US wars
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States
oh and why have they 1,000 military bases worldwide – and what is Africom doing -??
I’m not defending America or comparing internationally who is right or wrong only pointing out that your point is invalid.
Your point being that Russia has never started a war, eg Chechnya or Afghanistan.
And that Vietnam and Iraq were among the top killers of all time, also not true , Russian civil war or Mongol invasions.
That’s all I’m saying.
Because most governments are on holidays…
I Bet you’re glad you got that off your chest Victor
For economic reasons kiev needs exports tu russia which will not be replaced by exports to eu. Kiev cannot afford oil/gas rates agreed with eu. Kiev and moscow agreed a tri lateral agreement with the eu whic barroso rejected. Barroso said the eu does not sign trilateral agreements but that is what kiev needs. Barroso has blood on his hands and has the cheek to stop humanitarian convoy to the victims of the war he is also responsible for.
Best place to send neo-Nazis. If they’re on the front line, they’ll be the first to fall.
Do not even want to comment. Ukraine scrapped all the ballistic missiles years ago.
Evidence of ethic cleansing? Here is ethnic cleansing in Russian way http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1476350
I am not talking about Russia. I am talking about Ukrainians in the East who are ethnic Russians.
It looks like you are justifying ethnic cleansing which is not correct.
If ‘proxy wars’ are included USA wins gold by a mile. I deliberately didn’t mention ‘proxy wars’ for that reason. You would run out of column inches here if you did that. Starting with today; USA arming Israel. And so on.
So you don’t condemn of killing ordinary people in Eastern Europe, who don’t want to live under the Nazi?
Maybe you can tell me why does Ukrainian National Army running away to Russia while “Russia is the aggressor” by your sources?
@Andrew – You seem to be completely missing the point here. This isn’t about who started the most wars. It’s about Victor saying Russia has never started a war, which is clearly a ludicrous statement. You don’t have to roll tanks across a border to start a war. And they’ve done that too.
WW2 started with Germany invading poland from the west. Russia invaded from the east ( Ribontov) pack.
Damien show me the evidence? Where Ukrainian Army massacred ethnic Russians in villages and towns retaken by Ukrainian Army? Tell me which towns together with ethnic Russians were leveled to the ground by Ukrainian Artillery. People are fleeing because there is a war.
Masha which Nazi state you are talking about? Ukrainian President is a Jew. Head of President Administration is an ethnic Russian. One of Ministers is a Jew as well. The only Nazi state where soon you”ll need to give your full name to the goverment in order to use public Wi-Fi is a Russia. And once more, nobody precisely killing civilian people in Eastern Ukraine (or more like small parts of Donetsk and Lugansk regions) the evidence is that the amount of killed Ukrainian soldiers and rebels is 3 times higher then civilians who catch in cross-fire. This is as to compare to 2 Chechen wars fought by Russia where ratio of killed civilians was 3:1. So for every Russian soldier or Chechen fighter 3 civilians died.
Oleksandr from the Kiev ‘hasbara’…
The ‘jews’ running Israel are behaving precisely as a far right neo Nazi ‘ethnic cleansing’ regime.
Or maybe you think blowing to bits over 350 children in Gaza is a trivial matter, along with 80%+ of jewish Israelis?
(Whilst noting of course the brave and very vocal jews within Israel & the diaspora disgusted at Israel’s war crimes against the Palestinians.)
The issue in Ukraine is very simple…
The Eastern Ukrainians, with a majority quite ethnically distinct from Western Ukraine, want to excercise their right, as the UN charter states, to ‘self-determination’.
They do not feel any allegiance to an ethnic and far right nationalist regime in Kiev that took power by a coup d’etat, having used the Maidan protests as cover for their real agenda. The nationalist illegal regime in Kiev are refusing this right and are backed & financed by the US who have aggressively expanded their interests in former Soviet satellite states to further their own interests. They are now trying to take Eastern Ukraine by miltary force, with no concern for civilian deaths & injuries, & also by this means force out as many ethnic Russians living there as possible – ethnic cleansing.
Whatever Putin’s own geo political interests are, these are the facts in Ukraine. The Eastern Ukrainians have expressed no ambitions whatever toward Western Ukraine.
Your number of posts here suggests you are a propaganda shill for the right wing regime in Kiev. But apart from our own small minority of right wing sociopaths here in Ireland, we’re not buying it, sorry.
Mike. Just saying Western Ukraine and Eastern Ukraine is not correct. Same as dividing Ukraine on Russian speaking and Ukrainian speaking. And this is creation of Russian propaganda from 2004. If you look at videos of interviews with Ukrainian Army or National Guard you’ll see that majority of them speaks Russian. Same way as you do not have to know Gaelic to be an Irish patriot. There where no wall between East and West like in Germany. The largest territory of Ukraine is the Center. And it is like a link between the chain West-Center-East. And just remind me why Ukraine brought a military force to the East? My number of posts here suggest that I am Ukrainian and it is hard for me to see how “brother nation” bringing a war to my country and chopping off parts. Also all my post have evidence taken from official sources and not just chants “NAZi”. Which Right Wing Regime? I gave you official results from elections. Right wing party candidates got 1.7% of vote. What are you talking about? Did Ukraine annexed part of neighboring country. Are our SBU agents are heads of “defense forces” in neighboring countries?
Here we go with the personal attacks Mike. Oleksander pointed out that the President and several ministers in the Ukrainian Government are Jewish to point out that the Nazi crap is just a slur and all of a sudden he is an Israeli agent.
Does the fact that he is actually Ukrainian and has first hand knowledge of what is going on frighten you so badly that you need to resort to childish personal attacks because you are unable to attack his argument?
What you loudly call “Eastern Ukraine” represents only 5% of Ukrainian territory or less then a half of Donetsk and Lugansk regions. That’s where rebels are. Tell me please why there where no mass peaceful protests again “fascist regime in Kiev” in Donetsk. The largest was 5000 people, this is for the city of more then 1mln population in the region with 4.5mln population and why pro-Russian rebels cannot collect 10000 strong army in the regions of 7mln people? Give me evidence where Ukrainian Army massacred or tortured civilians? So why Ukrainian Government is NAZI? Shall I give you how Russian back rebels behave?
In Prague of 1968, Soviet tanks rumbled through the streets on a “Peacekeeping” mission. There is a precedent here.
Tsar Putin is very dangerous individual as we mark the centenary of a horrible war caused by dick swinging politicians squabbling over land and power we should be very wary of Putin. His desire to destabilise Ukraine to the point that it is totally subservient to his whims and so it can never become a modern European country could plunge our continent into a conflict that could be devastating.
I agree with what you are saying here but can you not see that the US have a serious interest in Ukraine? That along with NATO expansion over the last 30 years, you’d be a fool to think that Russia are the only aggressors.
“That along with NATO expansion over the last 30 years, you’d be a fool to think that Russia are the only aggressors.”
Russia has sat silently while ex-Soviet countries joined NATO, yet only now they take issue with a country where NATO membership isn’t even on the cards moving towards the West? Of course the US has an interest in the Ukraine but to call them the aggressor in this situation is ridiculous.
I didn’t say “the” aggressor, I said Russia is not the only aggressor.
Also, where is the conclusive proof that the yanks had which showed how Russia blew that plane out of the sky? It seems to have disappeared out of the news completely.
Most people have the indoctrination that Russia are always the bad guy, always the one to stir things up. This is not always the case.
“Also, where is the conclusive proof that the yanks had which showed how Russia blew that plane out of the sky?”
With the international investigation team who will judge the information accordingly.
“Most people have the indoctrination that Russia are always the bad guy, always the one to stir things up. This is not always the case.”
Considering the fact that they’re arming and supplying the rebels, their military and intelligence operatives comprise the majority of the rebel leadership, they’ve been reported to have shelled Ukrainian forces and are illegally occupying part of the Ukraine I would say it’s a safe bet that they are indeed the bad guy in this situation.
The day the flight went down, a representative from Washington said they had proof. Something about surface to air missiles on the Russian side. Had a quick look for a link but no joy.
The way you are speaking, you seem to have a lot of anti Russian bias. Speaking of the Ukrainian rebels, you are aware it’s an ultra right wing group that have taken over? Do you remember them setting fire to a trade union building and subsequently shooting anyone they fled from it?
I’m not saying the Russians are free from blame either, but simply pointing out that there are two sides in this situation and if Americas track record of foreign policy is anything to go by, it is extremely naive to think the big bad Russians are all to blame!
“The way you are speaking, you seem to have a lot of anti Russian bias. ”
Can’t attack the point, so you attack the person right? There’s no bias in my comments, merely facts relating to Russia’s involvement in the Ukraine. Your point that ultra-right wing parties have taken over is ridiculous as the ultra-right was crucified in the presidential election.
So if I’m biased against Russia then I’m assuming you’re going to prove how Russia is not illegally occupying Crimea, how they’re not supplying the rebels, how their operatives are not leading the rebellion and how they’re not shooting at Ukrainian troops trying to encircle the rebels. Right?
Jason,
You are taking selective quotes from what I said to mould and suit your argument. I clearly stated that Russia are to blame as well. Mo original point here being that both the us and Russia should be regarded as equally responsible.
Regarding the Ukrainian rebels, it is not only ridiculous to say they are not fascists but incredibly stupid. I’m sorry for being blunt but that’s just an idiotic statement. You really haven’t got a bulls notion what you are talking about so I’ll leave it there. Good day sir!
“Regarding the Ukrainian rebels, it is not only ridiculous to say they are not fascists but incredibly stupid. I’m sorry for being blunt but that’s just an idiotic statement. ”
Now I’m lost, at first you say that the Ukrainian government has been taken over by fascists and now you’re saying you’re talking about the rebels. I sense either backtracking or that you simply have no idea what you’re saying.
Never thought I’d see myself siding with an orange order man but the yank’s are as bad, if not worse than any other country. The carnage caused by the CIA with economic hit men since after WW2 is well known, it’s the modern form of empirialism. Even the contested Florida elections that got Bush in were uncovered to be highly fiddled with. All that other lad is doing is quoting you to make his points. This is an old story with new clothes, the elite ruling class are having pops at each other and using buzzwords like “freedom” etc to rouse the peasants to do their bidding.
By the way, not a conspiracy theorist, those people do crack me up though.
Fresh evidence the West pulled Ukraine into this geopolitical crisis.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/vladimir-putin/11023577/Fresh-evidence-of-how-the-West-lured-Ukraine-into-its-orbit.html
Not in the orange order, just enjoy winding a few journal posters up!
In an interview with the BBC in 2000, Putin said “it is hard for me to visualise NATO as an enemy” and when asked if it was possible that Russia could join NATO, replied “I don’t see why not”.
Putin has discovered more recently though that playing up a non-existent threat from NATO works wonders at home.
Why?
Orange order loyal. If you want to contribute to the debate. Why pick a user name that is deliberately antagonistic to many. If you want mature conversation you have to approach it maturely. After all. We are all adults.
About 90% of Crimean people voted in favour of joining Russia, not a single bullet being shot That’s a fact. But for Khrushchev who gifted Crimea to Ukraine not asking if people wanted to be a part of Ukraine, Crimea would always remained a part of Russia. Compare Falkland Islands thousands miles from UK and what justice had been done there.
Yes but Robin he then realised that becoming part of the gang would mean Russia losing it’s own sovereignty in a one world government and he’s a bit too much of a patriot it would seem, I suppose you could call him a conspiracy theorist. This is a fascinating speech circa 2006 goes a long way to explaining the current geopolitical battle going on well worth a watch http://youtu.be/wH0eHekt84g
My preferred screen name would have been “Athiest baby eater” but then I would have to go set up another account and probably email address, remember more details, all that Jazz. But ya, even democratic votes don’t sit right with the EU, we had to keep voting on certain things until we got it right for them. I’m a big supporter of the idea to stay in the EEC, but break from the EU and form a Nordic community with Scandinavia, Denmark, Scotland, Iceland, Greenland what remains of Britian and yes, even Russia and the baltics if they so wish. All us viking deacendants should stick together and balance out this monster that the EU is becoming.
Paul a very small percentage of irish people have nordic ancestry
“About 90% of Crimean people voted in favour of joining Russia”
Incorrect, statistically proven to be impossible not to mention the real results were accidentally released.
“not a single bullet being shot”
Again incorrect. Warning shots were fired by Russian troops at pro-Ukrainian protesters, journalists were beaten, innocent civilians were found murdered in ditches and two soldiers were killed.
Here Jason, quote this- Give it a break!
Jason a little Neo con wannabe parrot, thinks his excessive apologies will spare him his draconian fate, naive little puppy.
@jason your a gas man…….US POLITICIANS in Ukraine giving out bread to police ….have you not heard the conversation between Victoria Nuland and Geoff Pratt……..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5n8UbJ8jsk “I thnk we are in play” no interference Jason……..c’mon ?
@ Joe.
‘I suppose you could call him a conspiracy theorist’
Should feel right at home with you and Frank then
Hello Declan. Still being the simpleton. As I informed you the other day only a halfwit thinks that you posting under my name is actually me. But then again only a simpleton like you wouldn’t comprehend that.
JB and the telephone conversations recorded of Terrorists and their GRU handlers regarding MH17?
@the real Mick Jordan I thought to myself Mick Jordan is gone the other way…..too good to be true. lol
what ?
The recordings with TIMESTAMPS from the day before is it ? How is that possible Mick ? Did they pre record them to save time the next day ? Ask the American government for the evidence they are saying they have but they will not show it to anyone………they know it all
jb I’m getting pretty tired of having to explain this, but youtube videos are timestamped with local time (California) when they’re uploaded to the youtube servers, ie. it can give the appearance of being created several hours before the video was actually created in Ukraine or wherever, even though that is not the case.
Do you really believe that in a ‘grand conspiracy’ hypothesis, the CIA, MI6 (or whatever the current flavour of the day is) would plan and execute such an elaborate plot and then make such a basic f*ck-up as uploading the fake video before the event actually took place??
This is all horse dung anyways. They all seem to be able to get along when shit really starts hitting the fan, look at the craic with ISIS; US, Russian and Iranian armed forces all working together to combat a bunch of murdering nut jobs. Ukraine is all posturing, like a tame Cuban missile crisis. The very concept that two superpowers can be working together in one place yet bickering and imposing sanctions over another place… well it reeks of benefitting a few big players. I wonder is their a few beef barons etc in BRIC ready to supply to Russia and weapons manufacters raking it in due to Syria and Iraq. If I was a rich diabolical businessman it’s how id do it. F**k the plebs, I want to buy a football team and launder my black market profits.
@ Avina,
‘ And some fell on stony ground’ You’re wasting your time. The journal is now akin to the National Enquirer. God be with the days when you only came across the conspiracy theorists on wacky TV shows. Looks like they’ve all migrated here
Maybe its just me, but if Ukraine has given the commitment to allow the convoy in under the transparent auspices and supervision of the Red Cross then if Moscow is serious about providing humanitarian aid (with no hidden agenda) surely they will just agree to Red Cross oversight – where’s the problem?
The problem being Avina there is more than likely more that Humanitarian Supplies in those Trucks. With Donetsk surrounded the Terrorists must be running low on Ammo and replacement parts for their Heavy weapons. What better way to resupply them but with a “Humanitarian Convoy” but if the Red Cross are involved that puts a scanner in the works.
That was partly my point Mick – if Putin refuses to accept Red Cross oversight then the question that really needs to be asked is whether he is genuinely interested in providing humanitarian aid or whether the mission was simply a cover for something more sinister.
That wouldn’t matter to the Russians Avina, if the Russians refused to send in the convoy under Red Cross oversight then they would no doubt refuse and blame the West for placing “unrealistic restrictions” on the aid convoy.
Either way Russian state propaganda channels will have a field day.
@ Jason Culligan.. NATO is arming and supplying the coup regime they installed illegaly, get a grasp on reality, this is habbening on Russia’s border, they have been very nice about it, so far.
@ Mr Spok.. If there is that many of them here then maybe it’s you that is wrong.
@ Jason C… Er. Just a reminder, the Americans have given nothing to the investigation team yet, Kerry has said yesterday they have it but, no show. The Disney studios should have it ready for when we have moved on and forgot what it is about.
Putin is right. We have an EU sponsored coup trashing civilians in eastern Ukraine with no access to food or water.
Sean if you think that Putin is correct how is it he has restricted 4 million state workers from leaving the country. I have very little knowledge of whats going on in the Ukraine but this lunatic is not interested in his own people to say he cares about anyone in the Ukraine. I hope some time in the future we will not be wishing this was handled better. This man is a dictator & he needs to be stopped now. As posted above this has all the signs of behaviour from the Soviet era. Im old enough to remember the fear that created even in Ireland.
“Putin is right. We have an EU sponsored coup trashing civilians in eastern Ukraine with no access to food or water.”
The civilians in eastern Ukraine have no food or water thanks to a situation Russia created. The Russians continue to send weaponry and fighters to fuel a generally unpopular rising, hell the majority of the leaders of the rebellion are “ex”-Russian intelligence and military.
It’s no coincidence that Russia is only now getting restless with the situation conveniently when the Ukrainian military is cutting the rebels off from Russian supply routes and closing in on putting this rebellion down.
Sean, the coup was sponsored by the US, but as usual their EU puppets have been backing them up since.
USA rejected a Russian United Nations proposal last week to an International Team of Humanitarian Aid.
You analysis of what caused the conflict above is incorrect.
Do some research on demographics.
http://www.vox.com/2014/7/25/5934265/parliament-explainer
You’re acting like the 7-9 million ethnic Russians who live(d) in this area have no opinion which is nonsense.
They wanted to be part of a Federalized Ukraine and this proposal was rejected by Kiev.
The also have a long list of issues with the new Administration which Kiev refused to discuss.
Janukovic got 70-90% of the vote in 2010 elections in these areas and was illegally disposed.
Those in the East protested and were killed for protesting, Odessa is a good example.
The cops showed up 3 hours after the killing was done.
Kiev should have sat down with these people and tried to come to an agreement about their conerns.
Instead they sent in the Army and bombed them out of it.
Mike, I am Ukrainian. There where no coup. As opposed to the Orange Revolution which had some signs of EU and US involvement. This one was organized by Ukrainian People, mostly students, farmers, small & medium business owners, who were fed up with corruption. Some type of Union with Russia meant more corruption and no more elections. That’s the reason why pro-Russian separatist’s control very small part of the country and cannot mobilize 10000 strong army in the most pro-Russian regions with population of 7mln people.
Oleksandr Savitskyy, By that logic we should have a coup against the Irish Gov for corruption: Irish Water etc…I’d love to see one but I’m afraid we have to stick with the voting system. That’s how it works. Also neo fascists involvement with the coup and the pillage of east Ukraine invalidates your argument.
First of all term “the coup in Ukraine” came from the Russian media I do not want to go into the Ukr. Constitution and explanations. If we are talking about corruption in Ukraine it is not about likes of Irish water. It is about President who never had a business in his life lives in 200 mln $ mansion with a 30000USD table lamp on his desk and most of people get pensions of 150 euro per month. Or a pregnant women killed in a car accident by a 18 y.o. drunken son of local prosecutor who drove his dad’s SUV worth of 80000USD but yet his father is only on 600USD per month wage. A friend of mine had a small business. In Yushchenko times he was paying 700 USD bribe for special permissions for his business, after Yanukovich came to power 2000USD and in the last year he could not get permission at all. As all of them were taken in by “Family” owned companies.
BTW speaking about neo fascist so popular in Russian Media. Here is a pic. of Gubarev “governor” of DNR involved in Russian Nazi party http://maidantranslations.com/2014/03/09/arrested-self-proclaimed-governor-gubarev-turned-out-to-be-an-inveterate-russian-nazi-photos/ . As well to remind you that on recent Presidential election’s in Ukraine far right candidate Yarosh got 0.7% of the vote and the Right party (far away from Nazi ideology nationalistic party type of Irish Sinn Fein got 1%.
Ukraine’s government are themselves sponsoring Neo-Nazi battalion ‘Azov’ which is fighting for it http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11025137/Ukraine-crisis-the-neo-Nazi-brigade-fighting-pro-Russian-separatists.html .
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=991_1404305663&comments=1 Russian Nazi who killed animals incl. little puppies is fighting in Ukraine for pro-Russian separatists.
And who did Ukrainian people “elected”?
Another corrupted oligarn who is hands full of blood and who is in control by US!
@ Oleksandr Savitskyy..Irish people are not fools, we saw the E.U. and American politicians on the stage in Kiev, we know about the $5 Billion spent on the NGO’s and neo nazi paramilitary groups by America.
Only a fool could say there was no foreign instigated coup, I understand though, that Ukrainians have to cover up their war crimes.
Totally agree.The Ukranian situation has the potential of triggering a possible 3rd World War.Putin is a very dangerous man whose sole intention is to rebuild the Soviet empire.
Rubbish, I’m no fan of Putin’s internal politics, but the danger is all coming from the US and Israel right now.
“Rubbish, I’m no fan of Putin’s internal politics, but the danger is all coming from the US and Israel right now.”
I could have sworn it was Russia that forcibly annexed part of the Ukraine, not the US.
Jason Culligan .. says someone that supports a regime that uses terrorism as a means to destabilize and overthrow legitimate Governments.
There your are now Frank. Thought you must have taken a clapping of the Gills
Says Frank who supports Islamic extremists (Hamas)
“Jason Culligan .. says someone that supports a regime that uses terrorism as a means to destabilize and overthrow legitimate Governments.”
It helps to actually know the person you’re accusing before you accuse them. I’ve been nothing but vocal in my disapproval of the US and their unwavering support of Israel. I don’t “support” anyone, however in this case Russia is the obvious aggressor.
I wonder if AFP could give an indication of the number of civilian deaths so far. They have told us how many Ukrainian soldiers have been killed but don’t seem to have a desire to give detailed reports on people killed by Ukrainians
Maybe because there isn’t a detailed report to give? The rebels aren’t giving out reliable figures and they certainly haven’t given out the details of the people that they’ve been executing for petty theft. That and many of the casualties caused by the Ukrainian army have been from long-range artillery which makes it difficult to know for certain.
Let me guess … The Ukranian government are playing the Israeli card of distraction ..
Standard quotes
“We did not start this, Hamas did” … or Russians did.
“We did not kill these civilians with our tank rounds, they were Human shields, blame Hamas and the Russians”
On reports of mass casualties, “We haven’t heard about that yet, let us look into it”
“If the East-Ukranian rebels want peace, all they have to do is be subservient to Kiev, is that too much to ask?”
Ukraine/US and Israel all singing from the one hymn sheet and excuse book.
Cal
Such obvious parallels aren’t there? Quite agree. Have a read of my other post above & weblink provided. Time to start considering that what is – in persons of normal human empathy – ‘unthinkable’, is a very serious possibility we should never discount. Hitler and the Nazis happened – the German people of the 1930s, before Hitler and Goebbels got to work on them were little different to anyone else.
I have a German friend who’s parents lived thru’ that time. For decades after the war, most Germans were utterly shocked & incredulous as to how they could have allowed it to happen. Tremendous guilt still felt about it.
We need to always look at the facts and evidence (like the bodies of hundreds of dead children in Gaza, blown to bits by a 21st century war machine).
The US was heavily involved in the run up to the Ukrainian coup, backing them with $5 billion over the last several years. John McCain and CIA Director John Brennan were there earlier this year, sharing speaking platforms with the far right politicians & their shadowy ‘militia’ leaders, who are now members of the Kiev ruling coalition.
Jason, Why do you support the use of the following battle field weaponary (many of which is inaccurate) for use on civilian areas knowing the destruction it causes and has caused in East Ukr;
Multiple Uragan Rocket Launchers
Grad Multiple Rocket launchers
Ballistic Missiles
Battle Field Tanks
Mig Fighters
Helicopter Gunships
150mm Howitzers
Giatsint field guns,
APC’s
Mortar
Damian, most of that list is also being used by the rebels against the Ukrainian forces. If the Russians weren’t supplying the rebels with shoulder-fired missiles and possibly Buk launchers then the Ukrainians wouldn’t have to use inaccurate fire.
Grad fired by rebels from build up areas of Lugansk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYvh4uZOs8I
Separatists, half of which are Russians (easy to say by the accent) shooting at bee farm. The commander saw something shiny near the forest. One of the local separatists said that there are peaceful people and a bee farm. The answer was “What the F. they are doing there, shoot”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imbHYODTNQM So that’s about APC’s
Howitzers? Yea . Again shooting at Ukrainian Troops from build up area https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU0mkYP3knQ
Guns? Here we go https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJw2sx742rc One of them is clearly Russian
Jason, the army are shelling civilian areas not the rebels. The army out gun by far the rebels. The army have levelled homes many villages deserted ghost towns. The rebels did not attack civilian areas houses and aparetment blocks in west ukraine.
It is not ok to use heavy artillery to bomb civilian areas and that is what the Army are doing. Kiev has chosen this over peaceful negotiation with those in the East because that is the only solution in the end anyway. There are laws and ethics about using heavy artillery on populated areas even if rebels are holed up there. What do you think will be the result of this war? How can 7 million ethnic Russians now live in the Ukraine after so many bombings? Do you expect them all to live? What is the plan? A friend of mine is ethnic Russian married to a lady from Kharkiv. There are many mixed marraiges and people got on in the past. How is this possible now? It was a major bad judgement to send in heavy force in this way and very destructive to the peace process which is what is required. Olek, where do we go from here? (Many countries have 2 languages so that is not a problem i think eg. Ireland, Belgium, Switzerland etc. so I think Ukraine can also have 2). I am not to defend Russia but I think the humanitarian crisis is disgraceful. I think many people died for no reason. I see many people with no homes and in cold basements and the Winter is coming. It’s not my business but I think Ukraine needs a relationship with the EU and Russia because so many exportsgo to Russia. What about jobs in the Ukraine for these companies? Latvia joined the EU fully and lost all business with Russia. Result, all their young people have left and it is in a very bad way for the last 12 years. There were no jobs and only option was to go to ireland and Uk. Is that what you want for Ukraine? There are disadvantages to full EU memership such as high oil/gas tarriffs. Just some observations.I hope the madness ends soon.
HA you are like the US Government all evidence have been taken from youtube, go to Lugansk and Donetsk and see it all yourself.
If Russia is the aggressor why over half of a million of Refugees from Lugansk and Donetsk are gone to Russia?
Ukrainian Army crossing the Russian Border looking for food and shelter, saying they have been let down by Ukrainian Government.
Masha I recommend you to read less Russian Media because 500000 people you are talking about is the same informational fakes created by Putin propaganda like these http://www.examiner.com/list/russia-s-top-80-lies-about-ukraine All these fakes were posted in mainstream Russian Media same way as the joy of shooting down a passenger plane instead of Ukrainian Miltary Cargo plane posted on mainstream Russian Media after 5 min of accident. After realizing they made a mistake all the news were deleted and then made up stories began about Ukrainian Ground Attack airplane shot the Boeing. But Google Cash has a long memory. And here is a comment made by a Head Constructor of Su-25 saying that his plane is not capable of shooting Boeing in those circumstances http://politota.d3.ru/comments/580058
BTW I just 3 weeks as back from holidays back at home. My best friend who lives in Kiev is from Lugansk and recently collected his grandma from the city. And it looks like you are from Pinsk which is in Belarus. Have you been in Lugansk?
@ Cal, Ukrainian government is learning fast. they already used the Israeli excuse of terrorists hiding weapons weapons in hospitals to explain their attack on a hospital a few days ago. This black and white narrative propagated by APF (and the Journal) is dangerous. As a European, I am very uneasy about supporting a neo-Nazi paramilitary and am surprised that Germany in particular are funding the spread of swastikas and double headed wolves (?) throughout Ukraine.
These soldiers were shelled from Russia and the territory controlled by the rebels. When they send them there they did not expect Russian army will fire at them from across the border. So it was very smart move to cross the border as there is no formal war between Russia and Ukraine and all Russia could do by international law is to bring these soldiers back across the border. When they buses entered Ukraine they were attacked by the rebels and 2 of them were killed (all the soldiers were unarmed). None of them asked for asylum in Russia.
But an SU25 enhanced and flown by the Israelis ‘Eibat’ squadron +IS+ capable of shooting down that airliner.
Again, why isn’t the US showing the world all its satellite & radar data? What are they hiding?
As we can see, the evidence that Israel is now run by clinical psychopaths is overwhelming – they don’t care who they kill in following their geo political ends.
Funny that these radical muslim extremists like Al Quaeda and ISIS haven’t anything to say about Israel. Was their allegiance to their Israel supporting US ally Saudi Arabia a condition of getting arms & money from them?
Ukrainian Government are the lairs in this case, and also Ukrainian government always denied of shooting “by mistake” a civilian plane Novosibirsk – Tel Aviv in 2001 till all the evidence proved that who done it.
Its always Russian fault in all Ukrainian mistakes that you have made yourselves by electing corrupted oligarhs one after the other thinking that they gonna throw money at you.
Masha is that Ukraine annexed part of Russia and we are blaming them for our troubles? I kind of got lost. Also have you read all the evidence from shooting plane in 2001 and may be thought why Russian Government was complaining so little about that tragedy or you only read the headlines.? The military exercises during the plane was shot were joint with Russian Army and some of equipment was controlled by Russian Army officers. The other thing that the plane was shot in Russian airspace. One week before the military maneuvers Ukrainian goverment issued a statement to all the neighboring countries that there would be SAM shooting in the area. All the countries closed the airspace for specified time and areas except Russia. To remind you that first Russian version was Chechen Rebels and Putin in his speech next day said that it was impossible to shoot that plane with SS 200. So I lost. Guess why Putin was covering up these military maneuvers?
Oleksandr, I am not surprised of what you saying.
Russia will always be blamed for everything and anything because its the easy way to shift your problems and mistakes on some one else but never look at yourselves and see the problem.
Masha I am not just saying I am giving you official evidence and you are giving me your opinion.
“Russia will always be blamed for everything and anything because its the easy way to shift your problems and mistakes on some one else but never look at yourselves and see the problem.”
Russian troops occupy part of the Ukraine illegally and they continue to supply weapons and fighters to an unpopular rising yet you blame the Ukraine for all of this?
Jason you well know that because the Ukrainians dared to defy Putin and his plans for the “New Russian Empire” that it’s their own fault that poor Vladimir was forced to invade Crimea and they made him arm, finance,advise and send personnel to assist the Terrorists in Eastern Ukraine. How dare they act like a Sovereign Independent Nation is what the Putinistas on here are thinking.
Only people in east Ukraine have need of aid, the EU can hardly rely on the prorussian rebels to distribute aid.
Given that Putin had just sanctioned his own people from eating European food, you’d wonder if the pro-Russian gunmen in East Ukraine would just steal it instead and sell it on Russia’s vast and well-developed black market.
Robin, seeing as the EU in their wisdom la ed sanctions on Russia first, it was hardly to be expected. The Russians are going to buy their food from South America, New Zealand and China instead. The average worker who was supplying goods to Russia is now going to suffer because of a stupid policy.
Lift all sanctions.
Sanctions will be lifted as soon as Russia stops supply gunmen and military equipment and support to East Ukraine and returns Crimea to the Kiev government.
I genuinely despair when I see people defending Putin. Along with Medvedev, the man has kept himself in power at the expense of genuine democracy to oversee the rise of one of the most corrupt states in history. Given his track record it should be blindingly obvious what his motivations are with Ukraine.
Most Americans were against the war in Vietnam, but it didn’t make a blind bit of difference to the American people. Most people did not support the war in Iraq, but guess what democracy rules and the wars went ahead.
Putin has extraoridnarily high popularity because he is seen as taking a stand against US/EU aggression.
But don’t despair … Russia has only killed a very small percentage of civilians in any conflict it has engaged in post Afghanistan. You should be despairing at the US civilian kill rate. and where they are not directly killing civilians in bomb strikes, it is arming facist states like Israel to the teeth so that it can blast more civilians on their behalf.
You should despair at the US and EUs actions suppporting and carrying out mass civilian killings and propping up people like the coup leader in Egypt.
@Cal – Oh I despair at all that and more. But none of it makes what Putin has done to Russia any more acceptable. And if you’re falling for the old ‘but he’s hugely popular in his own country!’ line then I despair for you too.
Putin once said that the biggest tragedy of the 20th century was collapse of USSR. Not the WW1 or WW2, Chernobyl disaster but a collapse of USSR. The other thing is that Putin openly refers and supports Stalin actions. Just to remind you that 5mln people died during artificially created famine in 1933 in Ukraine. Another 500000 died in Russian Povolzh’e region. During 2 wars in Cechnya there were around 100000 civilians killed (250000 as per “Memorial” rights movement group). This is in the republic with population of 1.3 mln people.
There are 2 Russian trolls out of 4bln USD paid “sofa army” are on duty today :))).
Briny Boy they just want to have public WiFi access like in Russia :) . Here is a new law represented by Medvedev 5 days ago http://publication.pravo.gov.ru/Document/View/0001201408050024?index=1&rangeSize=1. All WiFi providers will need to identify all the Internet users and present users Name, Surname and Middle name as well as the info on hom much data they have used.
Cal, you obviously weren’t paying attention when Russia leveled Grozny twice and in each instance killed an estimated 25000 civilians each time. Your point that the Russians have killed very few civilians since Afghanistan is ridiculous.
More to the point about Putin’s popularity, he is seen as a defender against non-existent EU aggression which his state-sponsored propaganda machine has manufactured to galvanise support.
@ Oleksandr Savitskyy.. He was correct, look at how many wars and how many millions of people have been killed by America and NATO since then.
@ Olekasander Savitskyy… Why don’t you take your propaganda and troll off. If all Ukrainian people are as dopey as you, they should be allowed to have their way and freeze this winter.
This is a welcome development. It is incumbent on the Ukraine government to provide every protection necessary to this humanitarian convoy. They must also assist in getting the aid to the Donbass citizens.
here here!
There is no help needed in all the areas controlled by Ukrainian Army. People have food, water and electricity restored.
3 Russian trolls on duty do not like my comment. What exactly? Show me one town controlled by Ukrainian Army where there is no food or water?
Oleksander. Wait a bit longer and it will be awash with Putinistas all telling you have no idea about what your talking about and you must be Facist. But don’t take it to heart. They are only doing as Moscow instructed.
I have a great experience talking to them since 2004 Orange Revolution in Ukraine. At the moment Ukrainian Media is a lost case for them so they concentrate on the West creating “virtual reality” they have created in Russian media. They kill 2 hears with one shot. First is creating or more like trying to create Pro-Russian opinion by supplying evidence kind of like this http://www.examiner.com/list/russia-s-top-80-lies-about-ukraine. Second is they are showing screenshots of high “clicked” ratings of pro-Russian post on the Western Media sites and this way they control their own population by saying “You see, this is what ordinary Europeans/Americans think, we do not care about the opinion of “corrupt” Western governors. As I said before, Russia is spending 4bln USD on paid trolls and bloggers incl. the ones who are native speakers. In fairness to say I think Russia is N1 now in informational warfare and it is possible only in Russia, because any other country in the world where there are only about 60% of towns have access to Natural Gaz for heating and in some towns and villages there are virtually no roads would not spend such amount of money on propaganda.
This convoy is aimed at people in the city of Luhansk and Donetsk, in which many have no electricity, running water and food – How do you not know this? (http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/luhansk-in-critical-situation-without-food-power-and-water-360272.html) There is now also a concern that if this cargo is given the Ukrainian services at the border, then they will simply fail to deliver it to its destination. And could very possibly, use it for their own benefit, like feeding their low paid army, while continue to deny that there are no humanitarian problems in the region of ATO.
Great link. First of all it does not say anything about Donetsk as it is co-controlled by Ukrainian Oligarchs and most of the supermarkets are open as well that there is even Internet available in the city. Situation in Lugansk is worse as the rebels recently robbed one of supermarkets so the suppliers do not want to deliver anything there. And the most interesting in your link is the picture. Which shows a mother and a child walking pass “nazi” Ukrainian soldier and not eaten alive, the sign below the picture “Residents of Severodonetsk, an industrial city of 110,000 people in Luhansk Oblast, are mostly happy that the Ukrainian army on July 22 ousted Kremlin-backed separatists who controlled the city since May.”
@ Oleksandr.. Are you then a Ukrainian Nazi troll ? How stupid are you, the aid is not for areas where the Ukraine army is, though the Ukraine army is not been fed either.
@ Oleksander Savitskyy.. You are an insult to the intelligence of the Irish people, in fact to all people. It is Israel and America that are number one in internet trolling and propaganda, followed now by Ukraine why do you imagine people should just follow your propaganda ? If you are from Ukraine kiss your country good bye,
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/leaked-report-israel-acknowledges-jews-in-fact-khazars-secret-plan-for-reverse-migration-to-ukraine/#ixzz3535Lja5X
You sold it, your problem.
http://youtu.be/Byaz6Wu1O_U
Others are not as stupid as Ukrainians, we have to protect ourselves from foreign coups and people like you, Sell your own country, don’t be preaching your greed and failings to us.
Hi, I’m not pro Putin but would just like to point to a few things about the Ukrainian army. The source is the New York Times link below
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/10/world/europe/ukraine.html?_r=1
In paragraph 4 of this it says the army is firing artillery at a city nightly. Isn’t this one of the things the west condemned Gaddafi about. Firing artillery at Benghazi when he had the upper hand. Also a lot of people are angry at Israel firing at Gaza city. Also when Assad fired at Aleppo.
In the 2nd last paragraph of this it says there is neo-nazi millitia fighting the seperatists and waving neo-nazi flags.
So it seems, using the new york times, that the west in this situation is supporting neo nazis and the bombing of cities.
There were 2 humanitarian convoys organized by USSR and Russia. In Czechoslovakia in 1968 and in 1992 in Abhazia. Both of them were cover ups for military invasion and in the second case it was military aid. As per Girkin (so-called head commander of DNR&LNR) all the Russian kazaks have deserted and left they positions. Yesterday Ukrainian Special Forces detachment came back from a a 170 km raid on the separatist’s controlled territory destroying supplies and block-posts, Donetsk is completely surrounded by UA. Even despite supplies of tanks and heavy weapons as well as shelling of Ukrainian Army from Russian territory the separatist are loosing and in current conditions they won’t hold more then 2 months. So here comes Putin, for whom life of an innocent person is well behind his political ambitions , as we could see it from war in Chechnya, Dagestan and Beslan tragedy. This “humanitarian” convoy has 3 goals. One is to show nice picture on Russian and World TV and lift his rating and show that he is “cool” even despite Western sanctions. Two is to deliver weapons to separatists who are badly loosing their plot or if the convoy will be official to distract attention of Ukrainian Army and Border Gard so the weapons can be shipped through the rebel controlled border. And three is to win the time as some detachments of UA will need to regroup due to possible Russian invasion as well as make a provocation of “Ukrainian Army bombing” the “peaceful convoy” blowing couple of trucks in the air and again showing pics on like of LIFENEWS and RT.
@ Aleksandr Savitskyy.. Sounds very much the humanitarian coup organized by America, NATO and the E.U. in Kiev, Yat’s and his crew will be gone with your wealth in the winter, enjoy the cold and hunger, we will try stop any aid getting to you.
If Russia is sincere about this “Aid Convoy” then let them hand it over entirely to the International Red Cross who will take responsibility for what is actually loaded on those trucks and would ensure that neutral drivers are involved. I am sure the Ukrainian Government would have no problem letting it through once all the supplies were vetted and guaranteed by the IRC.
I see red thumbs for the suggestion that the IRC take control of the convoy. Is that because it is not what its supposed to be I wonder?
Don’t mind the thumbs Mick. I got burried earlier for pointing out that Russia has in fact started wars in its 800 year history.
Israel isn’t going to let humanitarian aid across Gaza’s border
Great minds think alike..
# Ethnic Cleansing.
@ Frank
;Great minds think alike’ Bit of an over used cliche that one. After all you and Corleone and Horgay and Jim Corr and David Icke also think alike and we’d just consider you ehhhhh???
Neo Nazis are spearheading the assault on Eastern Ukraine, hoisting Swastika like flags over towns recaptured.
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/08/10/nyt-discovers-ukraines-neo-nazis-at-war/
Russia/Ukraine.
Dar-right peas in a pod.
Which is why defending the Putin regime by accusing the opponent of being right wing seems so stupid.
Jason, the army are shelling civilian areas not the rebels. The army out gun by far the rebels. The army have levelled homes many villages deserted ghost towns. The rebels did not attack anyone in west ukraine.
I would be surprised if Putin wanted to get involved in a real war. Russian military is still a farce and body bags coming home changes public opinion fairly quickly.
Europe’s is in similar poor nick with active disarmament by the large countries.
ah yeah only hundred of top quality gen 4 and 4+ aircraft when Russia has nothing your could really call a gen 4 aircraft.
“ah yeah only hundred of top quality gen 4 and 4+ aircraft when Russia has nothing your could really call a gen 4 aircraft.”
I wouldn’t say that to be fair, in fact the period after the collapse of the Soviet Union has meant that the west has only really caught up with a lot of the technology the Russians have.
The Su-27 family as well as the MiG-29 are both very capable aircraft and can certainly keep pace with modern NATO equivalents. The only area the west really has the advantage is in stealth technology.
@ Bus Cat… Europe has no one attacking it.
Let the people of Eastern Ukraine decide what they want on free and fair referendum.
http://www.sgoal.org/Free-and-fair-referendum-regarding-the-future-of-Eastern-Ukraine
They had one already.
Sham, no nation on earth including Russia recognised it.
Exact same comment with the exact same link posted by a “Meghan Nova” on here as well. I’d say the budget for the Kremlin’s propaganda machine is getting a little low.
Is it worth pointing out that the Red Cross has no idea what is In the convoy and are unwilling to certify it as a red cross aid convoy?
Let the people of Eastern Ukraine decide what they want on free and fair referendum.
http://www.sgoal.org/Free-and-fair-referendum-regarding-the-future-of-Eastern-Ukraine
And how do you see “Free and Fair” referendum on Pro-Russian rebel controlled territory. Like Crimea where Ukrainian journalist (who was Russian) voted 3 times with her Russian (Crimea was Ukrainian at the time) passport?
The Ukrainians already attempted to hold free and fair voting in areas controlled by the rebels during the presidential elections. Rebel thugs attacked polling stations and threatened to kill anyone who dared to vote.
Yet it’s the Ukrainian government who are called Nazis…
@ Oleksandr Savitskyy.. If Kiev has no influence when and where the vote is taking place, then I would be happy that it is free and fair. Ukraine has more than one ethnicity, a foreign imposed coup regime has no right has no right to impose the dictates of its foreign masters on anyone.
Olek; many civialian areas bombarded; kramatorsk, slavyansk, kondrashovka, shaktyorsk, gorlovka, lugansk, donetsk, semyonovka.
Fresh evidence that Winston Churchill was right “The Fascists of the future will be the anti-fascists.” Interview with Vladimir Zhirinovsky, leader of Russian LDPR party who recently in front of cameras told to his assistants to go and rape a pregnant reporter http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/russia-s-ultranationalist-leader-vladimir-zhirinovsky-orders-aides-to-rape-pregnant-journalist-1.1773043 is giving fresh interview saying that ONLY Putin can decide the fate of Ukraine same way as Nicolas 3rd decided the fate of WW1, Stalin WW2 and Putin WW3. “Do you want to see burned to the ground Europe again?” “Baltic Republics and Poland will be completely destroyed by our army” “We will need to do bombings of all their territories” “We will need to make May 1945 for them again”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3YBcujoj78 Some people call him a clown but it is not funny as about 7mln of Russians are voting for him 3 elections. Some other people say “what is said by Zhyrinovsky is inside Putin’s brain”. Kind of unofficial spokepearson.
have your say