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I AM GAY. I have always been gay. I’ve never not been gay. It is just who I am. I did not choose to be this way, and honestly, I haven’t always wanted to be this way. Unfortunately we cannot choose who we are. Some of us are born with brown hair, others blond, others red. There’s nothing we can do with the hair colour we’re born with. Yes, we can dye away the colour and change the style, to fool people.
Sexuality is the same. Some of us are heterosexual, others are bisexual, others are homosexual. But while we can hide our true colours from the world, the roots will always grow back and shine through.
I write this to my home country, Ireland. Having lived for near my entire life I love this land. I love the people, I love the places, hell I even love the weather. Sadly, the homophobia that still exists in Ireland in 2014 is just something else altogether. Revelations came out during the week that the State broadcaster RTÉ paid out €85,000 in punitive damages following an interview with Rory O’Neill, aka Panti Bliss, on The Saturday Night Show.
It is appalling to think that RTÉ, a body that is supposed to respect the view of all, would pay damages because someone discussed how he felt about those actively campaigning for gay people to be treated differently to heterosexual people.
The show then held a debate about homophobia and what it means. In typical Irish style the debate was unrealistic and utterly pointless. What is homophobia? Well let me tell you what homophobia is. Simply put, treating LGBT people any different than straight people. And guess what? That includes all legalities, including marriage. It isn’t exactly rocket science.
And all I can really say is “why?” I mean, what does it matter to others what sexuality you are? It doesn’t hurt anyone else. In the past I used to say that I was lucky because I had never been bullied for being gay. Yet, I have. By institutions. Whether it has been the State for not recognising my simple human rights, or the Church for teaching me that who I am is wrong. I have had to battle through my entire life to be who I am, and sadly I have grown tired. I am only one man, a not very big man at that. I cannot understand why people, who homosexuality doesn’t even affect, attack it like it is a disease.
Luckily I am surrounded by a loving group of family and friends. People that actually care about other people. These are the true saints. The true martyrs. The true charities. They aren’t perfect, and do not claim to be. Unlike those who teach us throughout our lives, these people have accepted me for who I am and what I stand for. I am happy with who I am – but I am not happy with how I get treated for how I live my life.
And the funny thing is, I don’t live my life any different than anyone else. I am still a typical 20-year-old man. I get up, eat, work, go to college, drink too much, party too hard, laugh, cry and in general live my life. I do not care who everyone else lies with at night so, I do not understand why anyone else does.
I am not an activist. I am not a fighter. I am a man trying to live his life. I have never and will never berate anyone. Homosexuality is natural, no matter what they say. It exists throughout nature. Please, do not hate. Let all people live and love. The world will be a much safer, and happier place as a result. I cannot fight forever. But, LGBT people will. I will stand with them. For too long we have been treated as if we are less. We are all human. We should be treated that way.
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Fair play Christopher.just cos someone is straight,gay,bi or transgender doesn’t make them any different from anyone else.
Yes, a disgrace that our national broadcaster has used our licence fee money to pay huge amounts (85 grand?) to members of the Iona Institute for the ridiculous charge of defamation – have a look at this:
http://bocktherobber.com/2014/01/iona-institute-and-miss-panti-analysing-the-anatomy-of-defamation/
I think we should be asking our TDs to have the Public Accounts Committee look at this.
Why on earth would anyone give Jamie red thumbs. Are we still in the dark ages over people’s choice of sexual preferences. If people are happy it shouldn’t matter.
The same way people are born gay,some people are born assh:)les
How can you possibly defame an organisation that promotes the belief in sky gods?
@jamiekay. Unfortunately not. People are born gay but choose to be a**holes.
How many articles per month are dedicated to the gay community. Is this advertising or is the National Union of Journalists paying for the publication of these articles?!
You cab always get your news somewhere else Harry, you don’t live in Ireland, so mind your own business
Being gay is NOT a choice…..
Exactly Anna. And anyway even if it was a choice it wouldn’t matter because it’s not wrong :)
Yeah, spot on guys :)
Whenever someone feels they have to denigrate someone’s sexual orientation it only says something about themselves & their own ‘fears’. It’s nobody else’s business :)
I think you’ve missed the point of the article
Declan Byrne – I think you’ve missed the point
You people are whats wrong with this world, do you think people wake up one day and decide to be gay? If you do you have no idea. Im not gay im perfectly straight but why do people care about that. I dont care what sexuality people are. Do you hate to see different people being happy? Or do you put them down because your ‘moral’ compass tells you its wrong. Im 13 and im absolutely sick of people talking others down, and people with homophopic views spread them to their children. Ive seen one of my friends kill himself because of what yours and past generations are doing, killing people and happiness ffs. Cop on and learn to accept people for who THEY are.
Andrew
^what Andrew said. All of it.
I’m straight. But I don’t go around bawling about it. Honestly, these “articles” are truly becoming more tedious by the day.
Yeah it must be so hard having full legal rights. You poor thing. Tell you what, I’ll write an article on your daily struggle with heterosexuality. Deal?
@Andrew, I am glad that you are ” perfectly straight” as I am perfectly gay.
Well said Dave!
Gays don’t need sympathy there’s nothing wrong with them ..they should stop winging and looking for problems … It’s fine get on wit it !!!
Hmmmmm, denial of civil rights? Yeah, no biggy. Let’s roll over and get on with it…..idiotic comment from somebody who clearly hasn’t a clue
Its just a saying I have no problem with that
Get over it people lol if any of my children come out to me , I will say , you live your life , and as long as your harming no-one best of luck to you ..lol you’ve my blessings ..lol
Lol
That might be the most coherent thing you’ve ever posted.
Well played.
Yes , I hope so , Seán, lol thank you ..lol lot’s of red thumbs today and cousin banned ..lol ;)
what do you think lol means?
who could this be lol Benedick in disguise ,,lol
Why did Swansea sack laudrup… Crazy decision
Why is the journal obsessed with the gay agenda…is there something you want to share with us.
Oh the gay agenda, yes. Left my copy downstairs. Let me just check it.
Billy, it’s been an hour, any sign yet?
Well said Christopher
Yes Christopher – we stand with you.
As long as you are happy who cares what other may think if your gay or bisexual or straight. You are here for a good time not a longtime.
Great article Christopher . Wishing you all the best
Sure looka, aren’t you getting your hole. Thats the main thing.
Very well put Christopher, I wish you well!
I am straight. I’ve always been straight. I’ve never not been straight.
Do I get my own article and parade route too?
Getting sick of this stuff at this stage. I can’t be the only one.
Yes Kieran, how difficult it must be for you to listen to people struggle to gain rights that you already have.
Think they might as well scrap the name “the journal” and replace it with “gay times” and be done with it.
If you don’t like the news source then just find another! The Daily Mail might suit.
No thanks. I do enjoy the rants of the weirdos here. Carry on.
yes, the people who think all humans are entitled to equal rights, we’re the weirdos. Right…
Why don’t you put your proper name and photograph here
Straight Pride
Every day is straight pride you dullard
Organise a parade. Sure id support you. Many of my friends are straight and not one of them is an assh**e
I’ll try spit this properly. Can some people who are gay not understand that most people who aren’t gay will never understand gay people? It’s really that simple. Its not purposely done but for someone who is straight who’s never had a gay experience can never understand what its like to be gay. We just don’t fully understand. We are trying. It’s a slow process that will never reach the goal gay people expect.
Your poor little brain -
Speak for yourself , what’s to understand ?
What do you mean by understand? You don’t have to understand how or why we like the same sex, just know that we do, that it’s normal, it’s a positive experience except when people tell us it’s a disorder or against their beliefs. I can’t understand how a men can be sexually attracted to a woman, but I know they are, and that’s good or them and that’s all that’s important!
Chief,
A lotta people will red thumb you for that, but I think that admitting you don’t understand something is the start of beginning to.
But to be honest, I don’t think it’s something that needs understood, it just needs to be accepted.
Homophobic maybe -
No sean, I’ve plenty of gay friends. Im far from homaphobic. I’m saying regardless of what gay people think. The majority of straight people will never understand what its like to be gay. Its inbuilt in humans.
Face your fears chief ..
Chief maybe if you stop thinking only about the physical sexual element of a gay relationship. There is far more to a relationship than sex. So you can’t imagine a gay couple sitting down to dinner together, watching TV together, going for a walk?
Hey chief,
I wasn’t trying to suggest you were homophobic at all, just saying that I don’t think anyone needs to understand something to accept it.
I’ll put it another way. We live in a majority straight world. If you are part of a minority you have to struggle. At the moment the vast world hasn’t accepted gay people. obvious reason for something to be un excepted is its not understood. Until this changes gay people have to understand and not be shocked that thats whats wrong with the majority of straight people.
Dubs are a minority. Do we really have to accept them? :(
Dig up chief
Chief, why should gay people have to ‘understand’ the majority and accept having less rights? Gay people have been around as long as any other people, surely the world must be used to it by now?
Besides, many of the majority have no issues with minorities having the same human rights.
Yes Nialls, we do, I married a Dub and brought him to live here, he is accepted by most and isn’t treated any differently to the locals , they accept he was born that way and that being a Dub doesn’t mean that he doesn’t deserve the same human rights ;)
How many people accept the invisible man in the sky for instance without understanding?
it is all a created illusion by the controllers. its always been like this in his story.
Gay this Gay that, can we heterosexuals have a break. We get it your Gay ( so what my friend )
Disgruntled Homosexual today.
Privileged Elite tomorrow.
The lifestyle is being promoted on huge scale.
Troll!
Niall,
You misspelled tool.
Sean,
As I write there is 72 red to 36 green thumbs for that comment. Pretty high number in favour.
Worrying in fact. Are all of the green thumbs from homophobes?
Paul,
It’s really not a matter of homophobia.
The nonsense that poster has been spouting today is shocking. The user has essentially alleged that members of the lgbt community (while ignoring straight people in favour) are seeking marriage equality as a stepping stone to some greater power grab… What he hasn’t clarified.
So no, those in favour aren’t homophobes, they are people who believe that there really is a gay conspiracy to do… Something?! Making them crazy conspiracy theorists… Not homophobes.
Btw, if you have any evidence of his conspiracy, feel free to enlighten me.
John, “lifestyle”? Are you serious? A man is born gay, probably because of his genes, and you state it’s a LIFE STYLE? Pathetic.
The love between women and women, and men and men is just as good, valid, pure, natural and even elevating as the love between women and men.
Some people see being gay as abnormal but I notice for younger people they accept gay peoe as gay sexuality as natural and unremarkable.
Ireland is making great progress and external legal agencies have become a catalyst for improvement.
If a Referendum was proposed today to permit same sex marriage it would be passed by a decisive majority.
Peter, how would you know the difference of love making between opposite sex and same sex?
How would you Martin?
How would I what?
Know the difference…
From the mouth of babes! Well said Andrew!
Martin, please take your mind out of the gutter.
Peter spoke of love. You added the “making” part yourself. Why is it homophobes are always so obsessed with other people’s sex lives?
I know what my bodily parts are for Sean,and so do you.
Shanti, Martin seems to spend hours contemplating male on male sex. It’s all consuming for him. Must be a guilty pleasure
Ah shanti,if homophobia is an intrinsic disorder as you put it does that mean people could be born that way?
I’m really confused Martin.
I know human anatomy yes, but you ask someone how they would know the difference between sex with someone of differing and the same sex.
I want to know, how would you know?
Ailbhe,but if male on male sex is so natural why would their be a problem discussing it? Man on woman sex is discussed all the time.
Martin, I never said there was an issue discussing it. I’m happy to. However, you dwell on it, tell us its wrong and disgusting. You’re the one with the aversion to it (but secretly its all you think about)
Er excuse me – when did I say it was an intrinsic disorder? I said homophobia was on another thread – is that what you’re referring to and got hopelessly wrong?
Sean,I don’t know the difference but what I do know is a woman parts compliments a mans parts,that can’t be said for male on male only of course by those who engage in it.
Ailbhe,if the best you can do is accuse me of a being a closet homosexual don’t bother replying ok.
No that’s not what I said. Just that you have a keen interest, more so than most. You interpret it in whatever way you wish. Careful of those auld Freudian slips though
I’m getting genuinely tired of this branding of homosexuality as being unnatural.
1. It is observed in other species
2. It is observed in humans (part of nature)
It therefore fulfils the definition of being something natural.
You want to say you don’t like it, fine. But don’t throw out a word which is blatantly untrue and has been shown to be so.
Male on male, those who engage in it. Martin, what does that mean? Please explain how it works. Sex ed with Martin….
Shanti, you said it a few nights ago when we were discussing george weinberg remember? I had said that AP had stopped using the word homophobia and you sent me a link to GW and his response to AP in which GW described homophobia as an emotional problem,I then asked you was it a phobia or an emotional problem to which you replied it was an intrinsic disorder FACT. if it’s an intrinsic disorder that means people could be born that way FACT.
So Martin is sodomy ok between a man and a woman? Seeing as you are so obsessed with the actual act, straight couples do it as well!
Janette. I am well aware opposite sex couples engage in anal sex and no I don’t believe it’s ok.
What other animals practice homosexuality sean?
Ailbhe,I’ve been asking that question for quite a while unfortunately nobody has the answer.
Martin, why is male on male sex your only concern? Most men fantasize about two women….
Oh and most recently I’ve heard about lesbian penguins in a zoo, I can’t remember where sorry
Ok so this is A to F of only mammals…. You did ask… I’d be happy to provide you the complete list, but it’s not very website friendly.
African Buffalo[21]
African Elephant[22]
Agile Wallaby[23]
Amazon River Dolphin(Boto)[19]
American Bison[21][24]
Antelope[25]
Asian Elephant[22]
Asiatic Lion[26]
Asiatic Mouflon[27]
Atlantic Spotted Dolphin[19]
Australian Sea Lion[28]
Barasingha[29]
Barbary Sheep[30]
Beluga[19]
Bharal[31]
Bighorn Sheep[30]
Black Bear[32]
Blackbuck[33]
Black-footed Rock Wallaby[23]
Black-tailed Deer[29]
Bonnet Macaque[14]
Bonobo[34][35][36]
Bottlenose Dolphin[19][37]
Bowhead Whale[19]
Brazilian Guinea Pig[38]
Bridled Dolphin[19]
Brown Bear[32]
Brown Capuchin[39]
Brown Long-eared Bat[40]
Brown Rat[41]
Buffalo[30]
Caribou[42]
Cat (domestic)[43]
Cattle (domestic)[44]
Cheetah[26]
Collared Peccary[45]
Commerson’s Dolphin[19]
Common Brushtail Possum[46]
Common Chimpanzee[47]
Common Dolphin[19]
Common Marmoset[39]
Common Pipistrelle[48]
Common Raccoon[49]
Common Tree Shrew[50]
Cotton-top Tamarin[51]
Crab-eating Macaque[14]
Crested Black Macaque[14]
Dall’s Sheep[30]
Daubenton’s Bat[40]
Dog (domestic)[52]
Donkey
Doria’s Tree Kangaroo[23]
Dugong[53]
Dwarf Cavy[38]
Dwarf Mongoose[54]
Eastern Cottontail Rabbit[41]
Eastern Grey Kangaroo[23]
Elk[29]
Euro (a subspecies of wallaroo)[23]
European Bison[21]
Fallow Deer[29]
False Killer Whale[19]
Fat-tailed Dunnart[55]
Fin Whale[19]
Fox[56]
Ailbhe,let’s be clear I don’t care less what two males or two females get up to just don’t try to shove it down my throat that’s it all natural and anybody who goes out and has sex with another person does so by choice unless of course they are raped.
Shame about the killer whale being labeled false just because of his sexuality
Also, was there ever only one homosexual donkey as he has no number after his name
Martin,
Other than brain power, the other things you’ve mentioned, cars rockets and iPads are NOT found in nature.
So please tell me when compared to sexual activities observed in over 1000 species in nature, which is natural and which is not?
Your reality Ailbhe your reality and without cognition neither animal or human would do a whole lot.
If you did post the full list Sean would the black panther be on it I wonder?
Sean, lots of things happen in the animal kingdom (nature) that will never be accepted in human society would you agree?
As a homosexual, I have a far greater grasp on the reality of the situation than a heterosexual bigot like yourself will ever have. By you keep convincing yourself that your opinion, formed through no education, research or experience, must be right, because YOU thought of it
I agree Sean, I don’t believe it’s unnatural either. But cannibalism is also practiced by humans and animals!
Not that I feel the need to announce it to the world but I’m bisexual and only my partner knows. She is too. My family don’t know, nor friends, her family don’t know nor her friends either. Bisexuality has advantages in that provided you end up in a heterosexual relationship no one need know of the other side.
I do remember aged 17 or so turning up at a gay bar and talking to a group of 5 or 6 gay men. They were very welcoming and we all sat around a table a chatted away for an hour or two. I felt at ease and comfortable. I went in there looking for a shag basically – as you do when you’re a 17 year old.
Feeling comfortable with the group I blurted out I was bisexual – I was dying to tell someone having kept it a secret all those years.
I was laughed at. Haven’t been inside the door of a gay bar since. Not kidding. None of them believed bisexuality existed except one of them and he defended me to the last and if not for him I would have emotionally ended up in a bad way for a long time after.
Wait ok, now I see.
You’re accepting that it happens in nature and is therefore natural…. BUT you would like to see people do something unnatural and choose not to be gay if that’s how they are born?
Key learning points from this one, are that it’s. Not unnatural, it’s not a choice, but now that the ‘it’s just not natural’ argument has been disproven you’re going with ‘even if it is natural, we shouldn’t follow nature’. Gotcha.
Ailbhe,well if it’s the type of education research and experience you got you can keep it or better still put it in the bin where it belongs.
I’m sorry to hear that Drew. As Panti herself said, we’re all a little bit homophobic. Nothing excuses them laughing at you. Thanks for sharing
Put my experience in the bin? How would I do that. Martin, I have a Masters in Science, recognised around the world. I have read research on this topic and case studies, all supporting my arguments. You have your opinion backed up by the Iona Institute. Hmmmmm, I wonder which one holds more weight and credibility……
The fact is Martin, for every flimsy argument you put forward, it is countered by evidence based information. You falter, then move on to the next flimsy claim. Give it a rest, you’re embarrassing yourself
To echo Ailbhe, thanks for sharing that Drew.
If you feel it best for you to end up with a woman that’s cool, it’s whatever you feel is right in your life.
As she said no one has the right to laugh at you at all, those guys bar the nice one were @ssholes, I believe you exist. Brave to tell that story given your position.
Well it was a different time and place and at that point the gay community was almost totally underground Ailbhe. I think there was a kind of paranoia and neurosis in the environment as very very few were openly gay.
I only posted because I spotted Sean’s post and like his posts. I’m not looking for reassurance – it was a long long time ago.
However I don’t think I’d ever ;come out’ and I’m certain my partner won’t. I did however have 6 or 7 homosexual experiences in my life before we met, but she had none and I often wonder if it bothers her and if that urge and curiosity can ever be filled with me as we live as a normal heterosexual couple. It can play on my mind from time to time. Actually, I’d love to talk more about having 2 bisexual people in a relationship.
One other massive advantage of course is that we can have children and marry. And we already have children and we’re getting married this year.
Ah Drew you’ll make me blush.
Don’t let doubt play on your mind at all. Sounds like you have a rather brilliant life!
@Ailbhe
“As Panti herself said, we’re all a little bit homophobic”
That’s very true. In fact if I’m honest I likely held that experience against all gay men for many years. Not Lesbians, bisexuals, Trans etc – just gay men.
It’s a strange thing is prejudice.
Sean,
I gave you a green thumb for your list of animals ! Where did you get all that from ? In fairness Sean from reading all the different articles over the last week or so, you seem to be the only supporter of SSM who doesn’t scream homophobe at anyone who voices a different opinion to yours, you have my respect for that. I’ve taken an interest in this topic because I don’t agree with same sex parenting, I don’t see this as homophobic, I have gay friends and colleagues who I laugh and socialise with but this is how I feel about children and parenting. I guess I was ” born this way” .
I think the point I’m trying make is that debate is crucial between the two “sides” but it has got to the stage that a lot of those who oppose SSM will not comment anymore because of the reaction they will get. I don’t think this is doing your “side” any favours.
As did I about gay men, mainly because of stereotyping. Drew, you’re far from alone. I’m glad you two are getting married and have kids. Please don’t let it play on your mind, but do keep an open dialogue with your partner. It may help reassure you on that matter.
Fair play to you for sharing.
Hey Memphis,
So maybe not the most scholarly of sites, but as you asked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mammals_displaying_homosexual_behavior
I’ve done a bit of background on it since wiki isn’t exactly trustworthy and it seems legit, but then again that would require that you trust me. Memphis, I have a question; since the government plans to introduce legislation regarding adoption for same sex couples separate to the referendum on SSM, and they are essentially different issues now, would you vote in favour of SSM?
Also,thanks for the kind words, tbh I don’t see myself as any different to any of the other posters here on either side of this issue, but that’s kind of the point, isn’t it?
As I said Martin – you got it hopelessly wrong. I was making a joke – because the catholic hierarchy have claimed that homosexuality is an intrinsic disorder, I was turning the tables..
I can see now why you have issue dealing with logical reasoned arguments..
Memphis Belle,
Why do you oppose gay parenting?
Do you not realise that there are already gay parents? And that their rights and their families rights are at present denied?
Also – is it not a hasty generalisation (fallacy) to assume that a gay couple cannot do the same quality job as a straight couple of raising kids? I mean, all available evidence shows there’s no difference – so where does your objection stem from?
If it’s because “that’s the way it’s always been” then that too is a logical fallacy – because the way it has always been does not always mean that this is the best way.
I ask you this because I genuinely would like to know where your objection stems from so that I can see whether it has a basis in logic, because if it does not – then it deserves to be challenged.
Yes, absolutely , I would vote for SSM if it is a separate issue to adoption, you have just as much right to be as miserable as everyone else ! I think a lot of people feel that anyone who opposes same sex parenting hate gay people but that us not the case. I know that this is an awful cliche ( how do you spell that ? ) , but one of my very best friends is a gay man. We have laughed and cried together through thick and thin and he knows exactly how I feel. Sometimes people just have to agree to disagree on certain subjects.
I just noticed you seem to be more open to actual discussion than others on this site. If I get bombarded with abuse I just stop commenting and find something else to do and I reckon that probably applies to others too. I believe that a lot of “your side ” need to stop trying to bully everyone into their way of thinking, it is probably counter productive.
Well technically I’m a gay parent even though I’m male and my fiance too is gay (bisexual) Memphis. Would you have an issue with that or is it specifically same gender parenting?
And I fully agree on the bullying point too. There’s also a huge disadvantage to being in a numerical minority as you may have 6 or 7 posters to contend with at once and you can’t possibly get around to everyones.
That’s why often it’s better to post when a thread dies down, like now, to avoid the rush and avalanche.
Hello again shanti
It’s very simple with me. I think both a mother and father both have a role in bringing up a child. 2 mothers cannot take the place of a father when raising a child and the same goes for 2 fathers trying to replace a mother.
Couple of points, again thanks first off! Not often I’m called anything like the calm one. Secondly, while I totally understand where you’re coming from regarding bullying, I would think that you need to appreciate that people view things personally when it affects them directly, this as you’ve said is something you can log out of and not talk about for for however long, a lot of these people are frequently judged and told that they are less than and don’t have that luxury. For them it isn’t academic. They would also see attempts by people who have only a passing interest, using that interest to berate them as bullying.
I have to say I wholly disagree with your view on single sex parent families. The implication is that there is something so wrong with them loving a person of the same sex, that it makes them unfit to be parents and if that is the basis for the opinion, then I’m very sorry but it is homophobic because it assumes in the absence of supporting evidence that it is a fundamentally and inherently wrong thing.
I have yet to see any argument against allowing gay COUPLES to adopt, because as we know gay individuals can already do so. I apologise if my saying your views come across as homophobic upsets you, but i really just haven’t seen a rational, fact based argument, making the objections irrational in my eyes. Sorry as well for this being a wall of text for some reason line breaks don’t work on the iPad app.
Also, sorry I forgot a question and your reply to Shanti reminded me. Would you ban adoption by single people? Reason for asking is kinda self evident I think.
Drew
I only have an issue with same gender parenting.
You are right about commenting at this hour of the night, no hysteria at 2 in the morning. Seems that shift work does have its benefits.
Sean
I take your point about me being able to log off and walk away from these issues but others need to realise too that if they get abusive or aggressive I can do just that – log off and walk away. If someone wants to talk fine, if 10 different people start screaming bigot or homophobe at me and I’ll just get bored very quickly.
You reckon I have implied there is something wrong with a person loving another of the same sex. I certainly didn’t mean to. I’m not saying that anyone is unfit to be a parent, I’m saying 2 women cannot possible take the place of a father, there’s a difference.
Please don’t throw around this homophobic word, you remember I said I have a very close friend that is gay ?
I’m going to log off and walk away, it’s getting late at this stage. I’m sure we will cross paths again. Good night sir.
My concerns around gay marriage stem from my worry that it could possibly undermine the already precarious and paltry state of fathers rights in some way unforeseen as of yet. If it is shown that gay marriage will in fact cause big problems for unmarried fathers somehow then I may stop supporting it. But I’ve haven’t seen any hard evidence as of yet of that happening.
However there is another aspect too. The vast majority of research available on gay parenting concentrates on middle class, American, college educated, Lesbian women. Data on children of parents who identify as bisexual are still not available, and information about children of non-White lesbian or gay parents is hard to find Data on gay male parenting is also extremely thin on the ground.
But the research that does exist shows no difference in outcomes for the children raised in gay parent households as opposed to children of heterosexual parents. Children adapt. The best place for a child is in a loving stable environment and marriage offers that. There are financial and health benefits associated with marriage that contribute to that stability – which is another reason to support SSM.
On the gay male parenting front it’s important to note that research shows that children raised by single fathers do equally well to children raises by single mothers, So why should it be any different for gay male parents?
At this point I think it should now be up to people to prove that gay male parenting is somehow deficient, rather than gay men having to prove it isn’t.
I won’t lie to you and saw I don’t have concerns about children being raised in SSM without a father figure. As a man, and many men and womenwill tell you their mothers may have wiped their arses and noses, fed them, clothed them and did all the gritty work – but at some point, their fathers stepped in, and it was their fathers that introduced them to the world. That’s a niggling factor for me personally – but that’s not a good enough reason to deny people forming a happy family with happy children.
I worry that children may struggle with negative attitudes about their parents from the harassment they may encounter by living in a heterosexual society. But that’s unavoidable for the first people that break any new ground – that’s not a good enough reason to deny people forming a family and living happy lives either.
In the end people find ways to adapt.
Hi Memphis.
I can appreciate what your point starts from – mum and dad, yin and yang etc..
However, you must admit it’s an extremely idealised notion.. There’s no guarantee that heterosexual parents make good parents simply because of this either, in fact – I think there’s ample evidence of (some!!) heterosexual parents failings.
Same sex families do not exist in a vacuum – it’s not like a lesbian couple have no men in their lives, or a pair of gay men having no female friends, sisters, aunts, etc.. The influence of the wider family can never be ignored – look how large an effect it has on the rest of us!
There’s an ideal – and then there’s reality. And the reality is – gay people have kids already. And there are children in care all over the world who would love nothing more than parents – they don’t care whether it’s two mums or two dads – they just want to have a home and a family. And in order for them to be placed with that family – the parents need to jump many hoops.. In that sense – only those who are genuine and really want to parent will be successful. Why deny a child the chance to leave care for a stable loving home?
I realise that you have an ideal – but surely you realise that this ideal is neither mandatory nor entirely realistic?
I think people can be born with a tendency to be homophobic and born with tendency to be racist. I think it’s sort of ingrained in people’s personalities.
I sent the following comment but it was rejected on the grounds of offensive language. Am I missing something?
As far as treating gay people differently we should all perhaps be a little more honest. Legalising gay marriage and ending other legal discrimination is the easy part. All that takes if for slightly more than 50% of the electorate to be fair and do the right thing. However, getting to the honesty bit how many straight people have never had a little laugh at a camp man? If we meet a camp man don’t we wonder or even assume he is gay? I’m often surprised at the number of gay stereotypes on TV, who are essentially figures of fun in whatever programme they appear. I won’t be sanctimonious about this, I’m not any better than anyone else. Attitudes are the hardest thing of all to change. Only when they do will there be real equality.
That’s also the point I was trying to make.
Any opinion on the new research implying that smoking among other things while pregnant can cause the child to become gay ?
I think it shuts a lot of small minders up because it proves (if true) that you didn’t choose to be gay -
It’s nothing wrong to be gay! Maybe I’m a straight, I’m always envy of those who are gay!
Homophobia is bred by religion. There’s no logic to it. The best way to ensure gay rights, and many other rights, is to get rid of religion.
What would you do with all the homosexual clergy William?
What would you do with them Martin?
I’d leave them where they are of course they compliment each other beautifully.
Zozimus….. You’re damn right Straight Pride everyday & I love it! The way it should be!
Go for it then.
When is your parade ??
Only if you believe that other human beings should have less rights than you.
Jesus give it a rest, you wanna know what real oppression is? Try been a woman in a sharia law country, try been a tutsi in Rwanda, try living as a slum dweller in India.
Victim articles 24/7 on the Journal, give it a rest already.. you wouldn’t know what real oppression was!
I dunno John.
Homosexuals in Russia & Uganda might disagree.
Well done Jeremy so you’re actually comparing Russia’s law which bans promotion of homosexual propaganda to kids as it calls it and Gay people getting executed in Uganda, buts its not just gays in Africa that get persecuted you know, lots of ethnic minorities across the continent, the tutsi’s as I mentioned above about a million of them were macheted in a matter of weeks not so long ago, it made the holocaust look tame in comparision, oh know but the gays in Ireland can’t marry, that’s real opression……..
John,
I’d have a lot less cynicism about your post if it was off the back if agreeing with the need for changes within Irish society as well.
The fact that you have at every opportunity denigrated anyone expressing a view of tolerance makes me think that this is yet another deflection.
Mr Chong finds great offence at RTE paying the compensation to Mr Waters, Ms O’Brien et al, but like many commentators on the issue makes the huge error of ignoring the main problem that faced RTE in the aftermath of the program, which was not so much the comments of Mr O’Neil, however outrageous they may have been, but the goading and egging on by the presenter that encouraged Mr O’Neil to name the people he did.
This left RTE without any real options when the legal missives came flying, without the unbelievable stupidity of Mr O’Connor, there is every likelihood that they would have left Mr O’Neil to fend for himself had he made the remarks unprompted, but that path was closed to them and a quick resolution to the problem was their best, and probably only, option.
This unfortunate reality somewhat diminishes the duvet of victimhood that Mr O’Neil has swathed himself in since the program and which Mr Chong looks to piggyback on to, but such is life.
So why didn’t they just bleep out any direct references to named individuals / groups and leave the rest of the comment up for people to see and judge for themselves?
Why didn’t they just say it was removed for legal reasons and leave it at that? Why bring the name of a man who was brutally murdered the weekend it was aired into it, and then attempt to scrub all trace of the interview from the Internet so that people would think Mr O Neill said something inappropriate about the deceased?
This could have been handled in a professional and non controversial way, but RTE seem to enjoy digging holes for themselves..
As far as I am aware it was a live show, bleeping was not an option.
If it was pre-recorded and RTE still put out the show uncut, then RTE must be populated with complete idiots.
It was a pre recorded show which aired on the Saturday night, that’s how come the named parties managed to see it and complain.
The show was then removed from the RTE player and when it was reuploaded the entire section of Panti’s comments about homophobia and what it is were removed – along with the names mentioned.
They very easily could have bleeped it. They just didn’t, and if you would care to refer back to the original article around that take down – you will see that what Giz has said is correct.
Homophobia in Ireland is rooted in the national condition: begrudgery.
The most fervently homophobic find themselves in that state due to their living an uncomfortable denial: frustratedly masquerading as heterosexual, straight-laced, moral superiors to appease the pious societal norms of yesteryear; harbouring a deep sense of envy of those who are today living their lives true to themselves.
No wonder they are uncomfortable around gays, and their public proliferation: it is like being uncomfortable around their more successful peers, their richer cousins, their fitter neighbours.
Johngahan, I like the way you accuse straight people of being uncomfortable around Homosexual people like they are uncomfortable around -,rich – Fit – Successful -etc
You arrogantly compare the Gay community with the Elite .
Did it occur to you that they may feel uncomfortable around -Poor -Sick-ugly-druggies- thieves, etc?
Did it not occur to you that like minded people enjoy the company of same?
Thats why there are clubs and societies , and Gay Bars too.
Birds of a feather, flock together.
So what ,it’s your business what you and cheech get up to man ..
HAA , GAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYY
I know a lot of people who don’t understand homosexuality but I wouldn’t call them homophobic. I is s an inflammatory term. And a phobia is not a matter of choice,eg claustrophobia. Agoraphobia.
However the genie is out of the bottle now so I suppose homophobia will continue to be used as a generic term to describe any hetero who dares ask a question.
Just please let people ask questions and learn. Not everyone automatically knows the agenda.
Pantos speech was wonderfully revealing. We need more of that.
Don’t jump on people who aske questions, like James did to me on here recently. It won’t help.
Bra burning is not what helped women break the glass ceiling. Economic necessity to have women in theworkplace was always the driver.
Flag waving is fine but engagement and integration is the better way to go.
And as I have to keep repeating I will be voting yes, of course.
A phobia is an IRRATIONAL fear or aversion to something.
Claustrophobia is an irrational fear or aversion to small spaces.
Agoraphobia is an irrational fear or aversion to open spaces and large crowds.
Hydrophobia an irrational fear or aversion to water.
Tristadecaphobia is an irrational fear or aversion to the number 13 (or trideca τρισεκα).
People fear these things – but their reasons for doing so are irrational.
People’s opposition to homosexuality or equality for homosexual people is never based upon a logical reason. It’s never a rational reason – always an irrational one. The issue is entirely with them and their faulty reasoning. Hence why the term “homophobia” was developed.
Katy, you are making progress – and I certainly do not wish to denigrate that, but I will remind you that I posted you a link to an article written by the man who invented the term explaining precisely why your last comment there shows that you have missed the meaning and intent of the term, I could post it for you again if you like?
It’s an irrational stance. Defending it is irrational. Excusing it gives the impression that it’s ok. It’s not ok to seek to treat your fellow man or woman as inferior based upon something that they cannot change. I know you can see what I am saying, I think you have just fallen for the BS being peddled by those who don’t like their irrational views being challenged.
A phobia is also a learned response. People learn homophobia through religion, peers, superiors etc.
Actually Shanti, your own example is the loose thread by which your entire argument unravels. Hydrophobia is not irrational fear of water (presumably you’re thinking of what I believe is called aquaphobia). Nor is hydrophobia an irrational fear of anything else. Phobia does not necessarily mean fear at all.
Irrational… who sets the standard to call the aversion irrational? Irrational is a matter of opinion.
Zozzy, a phobia is a learned response where the sufferer has a heightened response to a stimulus and an aversion to that. People learn prejudices. A child is not born racist, it is taught.
Some people have a fear of spiders, did they too learn it from their peers religious leaders etc
Some people are simply NOT attracted to same sex individuals, and if they encounter an individual who IS attracted to same- then it makes for an uncomfortable relationship.
If a man asks a girl out for a date and it is not welcomed , it is construed as sexual harassment .
If same Man is approached in same fashion – but by another Man, then he is Homophobic.
Can’t win.
Thanks Ailbhe. I’m not quite sure why you’re addressing that to me, but I agree that a phobia can be exactly what you describe. In particular, I think your description is absolutely spot on for homophobia.
Actually, upon closer inspection, I now see that I completely misread Shanti’s comment. I was distracted by the hydrophobia thing and didn’t bother reading the rest of it. Oops, sorry about that!
I will work on becoming a better listener.
John, it makes you uncomfortable that gay men might treat you like you treat women?
Fear of spiders can come from parent, etc reacting to spiders in the child’s younger days, or getting a fright with one. It is only a matter of tracing back to when the fear entered the memory cells of the being.
One does not simply trace back to when the fear entered the memory cells of the being.
Christopher.
I really don’t give a toss that you are gay. That’s your business. I just hope that you find the person in life who makes you feel happy, loved and cherished – because we all deserve that, we all need it in fact.
I am sorry that there are some people out there who take so much interest in your sexual preference, I really can’t speak for them, I can’t understand them. They seem like bigoted control freaks to me. I just wish they hadn’t been able to have such a profound effect on your or any other gay persons life for so long.
Hopefully the tide is turning, and soon we will say goodbye and good riddance to this blatant discrimination which even breaks our own laws (the equality act namely). With any luck – some may even change their tune. I read on a blog recently about some American homophobic campaigner who after marriage equality was passed he decided to focus on protecting marriage and trying to focus on helping people prepare for and maintain healthy marriages – be they gay or straight.
If he can overcome his prejudices, there is hope for our own band of merry homophobes too.
http://williamquill.com/2013/06/06/could-david-quinn-learn-from-david-blankenhorn/#more-1241
there are accepted limit of normality in human society. homosexuality or sodomy is abnormal and will remain abnormal. it was classified as mental disorder in the past before those suffering from it started shouting down those with voice of reason.
i suggest you seek help from a sympathetic psychiatrist as quickly as possible.
Next week on “Posts from the 50′s” – Moira isn’t sure what kind of flour to use in the bread, how much trouble is she in when her husband gets home?!
Find out next time,same intolerant time,same intolerant rhetoric.
I could have a reasonable discussion with you on this as well as asking how much you’ve read into this, who you think reclassified it, why you think they need help, etc. but tbh it’s late and you’re being silly.
Same as being a woman- was deemed to be a soulless un evolved being with feeble minds, like cattle, fit for breeding only.
It is all there in the sacred texts for people to read.
Also the Pope’s Pears was an instrument of torture used on women and gay man during the Inquisition.
2014 and we have people called judges trained to see all Irish women as feeble minded.
People are the way God made them and that is good enough for me.
Interesting that the recipients of the €85K refused an apology and retraction from RTE and instead of allowing RTE make a donation to a worthy charity, they opted to line there own pockets!! Obviously so outraged were they at being correctly branded homophobes they needed a cash inducement to calm them down. Grow up people.
“I am gay. I have always been gay. I’ve never not been gay.”
Are you gay though?
What’s normal is normal
When will people realise that this is a patriarchal agenda of divide and rule.
Gay v straight, black v white, men v wombmwn and on and on
What about looking at the law of One and see we are all FREE SOVEREIGN CHILDREN OF THE UNIVERSE.
I define marriage as a union between two people that has a 50% failure rate.
I know this is not the correct forum so please forgive me. I’ve always been straight. Few years ago I used to fantasise about transvestites. My marriage broke up and then I met a few for sex. I now watch gay porn, don’t fancy guys but prefer sex with penis.
Can I be gay and not fancy guys???
have your say