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AS WE LEAVE behind 2018, a year in which Jordan Peterson sold out the Olympia Theatre, Nigel Farage was warmly received at the RDS Irexit conference, and Peter Casey polled second in the Irish Presidential election, it is clear to see that far-right political ideals are on the rise in Ireland.
Meanwhile, working-class voices on the left are being stifled within their own movement. For those paying attention, it is difficult to claim that the two matters are unrelated.
Anyone who has spent time on social media this year will have noticed that a sizeable proportion of Ireland’s young workers are becoming attracted to the reactionary stylings of right-wing populists from abroad.
Granted, Ireland does not have this problem on the scale of other countries, but the onset of the social media age has inevitably resulted in the importation of certain American terms and ideas.
At the same time, many people look across the Irish Sea and sympathise with the plight of Tommy Robinson’s recent court case. In a way, who can blame them? Demagogues like Robinson have often found success among the working class in Britain by presenting themselves as regular people.
The late Bob Crow, the charismatic leader of the RMT (National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers), acted as a bulwark against this kind of populist. Crow was the first socialist who was able to persuasively explain left-wing concepts to people like the current Senior Assistant General Secretary of his old union, Irishman Steve Hedley. Many others were no doubt similarly affected by his eloquence.
Part of his appeal, Hedley has told me, came from the fact that the Londoner was visibly working class and proud of it. Ireland could use a Bob Crow at the moment, but they would be unlikely to get very far.
The current trend of ostracising people for having used politically incorrect language, or having expressed ‘problematic’ viewpoints, is alienating future leaders who are needed to fill a political void in Ireland.
The logical consequence of this behaviour is that someone will soon be successful in rallying together enough impressionable voters to form an electable far-right party. Only visible representatives from the working class stand any chance of halting this trend.
Ireland does not need to look far to find individuals like this, but many commentators in the left-wing establishment seem determined to freeze them out of the movement entirely when they emerge.
That isn’t to say that there aren’t any prominent working-class figures on the left in Irish politics. Sinn Féin and People Before Profit, in particular, have done a good job of promoting a significant number of local representatives in and around Dublin in recent years.
But the “left” is more than the political party machines and the trade unions – it is comprised of journalists, pundits, university professors and even, although they are nowhere near as important as they think, the Irish “Twitterati”.
The treatment of author, Frankie Gaffney, is a case in point. Gaffney is working-class Dublin personified. And is the kind of person that the left in Ireland should want at the apex of their movement. An eloquent debater who doesn’t tone down his thick northside accent. Nor is he apologetic about his old-fashioned socialism.
Back in 2017, a large cohort on the left found a piece he wrote in the Irish Times objectionable. Gaffney was heavily criticised on social media for having the temerity to question the effectiveness of ‘identity politics’ in Ireland, in an article that, in hindsight, seems fairly understated.
Central to his piece was the argument that the increasing usage of American political terms like ‘white privilege’ was only tenuously applicable to Ireland, and that they, in turn, alienated the country’s own working class – a group of people who feel about as far from privileged as possible in the current economic climate.
Gaffney’s piece was provocative, and its purpose was to ignite debate, it is fine to disagree with him but the pushback he faced after the article was published was excessive.
The sheer nastiness he had to endure online, mostly from people on his own side, was simply uncalled for. Those who attacked him did so with such vitriol that they proved his point for him.
He faced threats of violence, and his appearance was mocked, with many reacting to his piece deciding to play the (working class) man before the ball.
The similar ad-hominem criticism that Luke Flanagan has to endure from fellow left-wing politicians and journalists whenever he breaches protocol is evidence that even being an elected representative offers no protection from this onslaught.
Irish author, Angela Nagle, recently explained to me her view that one of the reasons why ordinary working people are being silenced by many on the left is their relative lack of regard for modern liberal terminology.
The inclusion of working class voices on the left presents many middle-class liberals with the very real problem of having to accept that most people do not conform to the same norms of political correctness that they do.
Gaffney’s treatment, Nagle claims, is the consequence of a system of etiquette that the liberal establishment strictly adheres to, but that most other people in this country do not.
This is a cultural question of the way a significant proportion of the Irish middle class left treat working class people on their own side.
The most concerning implication of this theory is that working class people in Ireland are being sidelined from a political movement that was originally created for their benefit, on the basis of minor contraventions of ever-changing protocols.
If workers are made to feel unwelcome on the left, it should be no surprise to anyone when they consider looking elsewhere. This treatment of working-class socialists in Ireland is a long-standing issue.
It’s unsurprising that the two biggest icons in left-wing Irish history, Jim Larkin and James Connolly, were born and raised in Liverpool and Edinburgh respectively, and cut their political teeth abroad.
Many people on the left in Ireland have long failed to treat our working class with the respect it deserves.
If this doesn’t change soon, the angry young workers of Ireland currently being seduced by the Robinsons and Caseys of the world have every chance of becoming an organised political force.
And that should be a frightening thought for the left to consider.
Conor Kenny is a political aide and former trade union employee currently based in Massachusetts.
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Silencing working class voters on the left? Deluded. The Irish media will give anyone who promotes centre-left or far-left ideas a platform. Claire Byrne live gave Margaret Cash a seat on a panel in spite of 37 previous convictions.
If you want to stop the rise of the far-right then stop calling anyone who’s slightly right wing on policies of immigration, taxation etc, far right. But the left fear this more than anything, because they know how effective their use of words like ‘racist, xenophobe, fascist, nazi’ are in shutting down discussion and signaling to others not to listen or agree with the person speaking or they’ll be labeled as one of these pejorative s also.
@Robert Burke: I couldn’t agree more
@Robert Burke: very well said. My sentiments also.
@Robert Burke: absolutely. If Peter Caseys views on travellers are far right then most Irish people have “far right” views in relation to travellers.
@Robert Burke: Would that be the same way that the term “the Left” shuts down discussion. There is a very broad spectrum, but calling them all the Left makes it easier to attack. Of course this also works in the other direction. We need to embrace our broad political spectrum, not ignore it with blunt-instrument terminology.
@Ian Phillip Creaner: I’ll agree that the right engages in similar tactics at times, but I do not accept that using the term ‘the left’ is anywhere near as incendiary as one of the following terms ‘Xenophobe, Racist, Sexist, Far-Right, Islamophobe, Nazi, Fascist’. When you equate people with arguably the worst regime in history or people who harbour extreme prejudices against others based on immutable characteristics because they disagree with your politics or the identity politics that has made its way into mainstream liberal culture, it’s without a doubt the worst thing someone in modern society can be called.
It’s thrown about so much these days and if you find yourself targeted by the PC mob over something you said, you could very well find yourself out of work and your character destroyed.
@Robert Burke: name all these left wing journalists. I can count about 5 whereas thanks to dob and rte about 90% of our journalists are right. there are no new Vincent Browne’s coming through. Every presenter on newstalk except moncrief is right wing, I even heard Ciara Kelly call Corbyn a looper the other day, Sean o Rourke, tubridy, joe Duffy, everyone in independent media except for gene kerrigan. Irish media is more right wing now than it ever has been.
There’s a difference between being pc and left wing. Pat Kenny is pc but is also as right wing as you can get
The fact that these people get paid big wages means most dont support left wing parties because they know its them who will be paying more in taxes if they get in
@Marcus Briody: I’m obviously not going to make a list of every journalist in Ireland, but I’ll point you to the editorial boards of every mainstream newspaper & broadcaster. What we have seen in Ireland is a move of every political party represented in the Dáil to the left especially on social issues, but also on economics. Fine Gael passed a budget for this year that increased spending over tax cuts by a ratio of 11:1. Ivan Yates, David Quinn & Dan O’Brien raised reservations about this, but every other contributor to mainstream discussion expressed no concern about this increase or that polling showed the majority of people favour tax cuts over increased expenditure. FF, FF, Labour, Greens have all been in power over the past two decades and nothing has changed in terms of fiscal policy because our system is already the most redistributive of any country in the OECD, just look at the entry levels for the high tax band and the stealth taxes being paid by ordinary workers. In fact, the only policy you could argue is right wing is the corporate tax rate and significant portions of labour(Blairites), Democrat Party & other mainstream left wing parties are in favour of a competitive rate to increase FDI. While the results of many FG policies have been terrible, how do we have one of the most liberal immigration policy, generous social welfare system, Social & affordable housing schemes, free healthcare/medical cards if FG are so right wing?
Every issue being discussed on radio, TV or in the papers is presented through a left wing perspective (Be honest, what % of discussion on Trump, Brexit, Italy, Austria, Hungary, Republican V Democrats, Cons v Labour or a whole host of other issues is made from a right wing perspective?) When centre-left commentators express disapproval of far-left politicians like Jeremy Corbyn it does not make them right wing, just as conservative commentators criticizing far right leaders does not make them left wing.
@Robert Burke: If the parties are shifting to the left it’s only to chase votes, i.e. reflecting the mood of the people. Right wing parties don’t do well (PDs and Renua) because people in general prefer centre-left policies. If the system is redistributive as you say (and how do the “stealth taxes on the ordinary worker” achieve that?) it’s what this society in general approves of.
People seem to prefer a more cohesive society than the dog-eat-dog style preferred by the right, our media reflects that. What’s your point about editorial boards anyway?
Who a4e these people who ‘look across the Irish Sea and sympathise with the plight of Tommy Robinson’s recent court case.
I genuinely know no one.
To call Peter Casey fat right is nonsense. He called for Travellers to be treated the same as settled people. Is it far right to expect our laws to apply to everyone?
@Jane: if u use a trump tactic then u automatically get that label
@Bruce van der Gutschmitzer: as I recall he was asked a question in an interview and answered it and when he was challenged for his answer he didn’t back down. He didn’t stand at a pulpit and pick a section of society to demean as Trump does.
@Jane: not originally no, but when he saw the reaction he got, he ran with it.
@Jane: he did eventually. Making up that he had a press conference in Hayes Hotel to address the issue and he had nothing booked then couldn’t deal with the questions when he turned up to the estate. It was an attempt to appeal to the lowest common denominator and it worked.
@Bruce van der Gutschmitzer: & James, so do you believe he’s far right?
@Bruce van der Gutschmitzer: regards himself as left wing. Labels 23% of the electorate the “lowest common denominator”. Did you enjoy the article Bruce? Who do you think it was aimed at?
@Jane: I believe he’d do anything to get ahead like a true businessman along with those other Dragons eejits. I don’t know enough about him or his background to make a judgement on his political leanings. But he’s definitely more right than he is left anyway.
@Winston Smith: he might regard himself as such but he sounds like he’s more right wing. When there isn’t anything between any of the candidates then appealing to ppl’s dislike of travellers sways things easily.
@Bruce van der Gutschmitzer: that was directed at you. You regard yourself as left wing. You labelled 23% of your fellow countrymen, ordinary people, as “the lowest common denominator”. What message did you get from the above article Bruce?
@Winston Smith: maybe I was harsh. I’m saying people were duped by him. He pressed on with a topic that had no relevance to his position and an issue that he knew would get him notoriety just to get ahead. It was a pathetic issue to focus on. His talk of the diaspora had more relevance but didn’t make any sense either. He would be a useless gombeen politician like most of them but when there’s nothing between candidates then that can sway it. Ppl dislike travellers do they not?
@Jane: if you actually listened to what Robinson is saying, you’d probably agree with him, and probably learn something too.
@Kavo: no I wouldn’t agree with him and the only I’d learn is how much of a scrote he really is.
@Jane: I’d say anyone of interest to Renua could be considered Far Right…. read between the lines. Seriously
@Jane: not yet
Jordan Peterson is far right now? Off to a bad start there Conor. At least try to get the basics correct.
@Peter Denham: Jordan Peterson thinks contraception shouldn’t be allowed. That’s far right.
@Dr. X (Official Continuity Faction): does he? I’ve listened to hours of his stuff and never heard him say that.
Could you please show me where so I can listen precisely to what he says?
@sVRCsaSg: google “Jordan Peterson contraception” and it’s literally the first result.
@Dr. X (Official Continuity Faction): thanks. I really enjoyed that. It’s a serious concept to consider.
However he never says or even alludes to banning contraception. He does however talk about the impact of the sexual revolution and how it has and may continue to change society.
@Peter Denham:
he is ultra conservative believing in enforced monogomy, the far right amongst other things believes in subjugating women so he does fit into that term just not the hatred of non white people part https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2018/may/23/jordan-peterson-public-intellectual-isnt-clever-violent-men-monogamy
@Marcus Briody: Oh, an opinion piece from the Guardian. It must be true so.
@Dr. X (Official Continuity Faction): so one view on a single topic defines your whole political leaning? That makes no sense.
@Marcus Briody: Subjugation of women? You really shouldn’t believe everything you read.
@Peter Denham: so true the author lost me after stating Jordan P is far right. Huge difference between someone right of your particular position and far right
@Peter Denham: so true the author lost me after stating Jordan P is far right. Huge difference between someone right of your particular position and far right.
Is the article designed to provoke through ignorance or just ill informed??
@Dr. X (Official Continuity Faction): okay I think I’ve found the clip you’re referring to. He’s asked on the Bill Mayer show about one of his rules in his book. Specifically about, “not disturbing kids when there skateboarding”. Essentially he’s talking about the Oedipal mother, he is a psychologist after all. To paraphrase, he says the overbearing parenting tends to happen in families with few children and kids in larger families tend to have more freedom and that this is due partially to the revolutionary power of the pill. Then the female co host says, “oh let’s get rid of that aswell”. He says, “oh no, I’m not saying that we should get rid of the pill”.
@Marcus Briody: Yes, socially enforced monogamy – he has clarified this multiple times. Enforced monogamy is a technical term used in the social sciences especially anthropology to refer to societies that socially (i.e through custom) encourage monogamy as opposed to those societies where polygamy is accepted culturally and practiced. It is a well established fact that societies that socially enforce monogamy (i.e almost all societies) are more stable and less violent that ones that don’t. The same is true in other mammals. This is mainstream thinking in anthropology. His use of the technical term “enforced monogamy” was purposefully taken out of context by a NYT journalist.
@Peter Denham: looks like the journalist did not research for his article.
@Dr. X (Official Continuity Faction): I am not sure if that is the point Dr. Peterson is trying to make (I may be wrong). I imagine he is interested in how the the rise in contraception has changed the sexual relationship. May I ask you were you heard Peterson say Contraception should not be allowed?
@Peter Denham: good god you must be off to the right of genghis khan if you think peterson is not a right wing conservitive
What about the rise of the far left which is just as dangerous? The socialist party & PBP would qualify. This surely is a cause for concern & we will be seeing a number of articles about it.
@Seamus Mac: dangerous in what way. Apart from ill conceived economic policies.
@J: far left movements that have managed to rise to actual governmental power have proven a little dangerous to the people who lived under their governments. I believe estimates are 100-110m innocent souls lost to their own far left governments in the 20th century alone. They’re no less dangerous than far right governments. They do seem to be more indiscriminate than far right governments though, and due to their longevity last century possess a far higher death toll.
@Winston Smith: lol as if capitalism hasn’t killed anyone.
@Dr. X (Official Continuity Faction): interesting defence of socialism’s bloody history. So do you believe the 100 or so million innocent deaths were an acceptable development in the implementation of socialist ideals? How many innocents would you personally be willing to sacrifice in order to re-enact those socialist structures in society today?
@Winston Smith: I don’t believe in the 100m deaths. Your figures are from the roundly debunked “Black Book of Communism” which arrives at it figures by counting all excess deaths due to inadequate healthcare. This is obviously nonsense because it blames communism for the inadequate health systems which predate it. By the same logic you could say the British killed 200 milion in India also.
@J: the extreme left & right have many similar attributes. History has taught us that.
@Dr. X (Official Continuity Faction): no, it doesn’t include figures caused by poor medical facilities. It is not solely based on the black book, it is widely agreed by many scholars. You’re the left wing equivalent of the holocaust denier. We should call you people Holodomor deniers! (Actually, do you deny the Holodomor while we’re on the topic?)
@Winston Smith: Dude the black book and anything making similar claims has been debunked. I do not disputed the holodomor or the Chinese famine or Pol Pot, but all those together don’t even get you half way to 100m.
Don’t get me wrong, it’s still bad. But in the context of similar mass deaths under the British in India (or Ireland) and the extermination of the native Americans, you can hardly describe communism as somehow uniquely bloody, as you seem to be suggesting.
@Dr. X (Official Continuity Faction): the Nazis only gassed 6 million Jews. Compared to how many died in the colonisation of the americas this number is quite small. No reason not to give the auld natsoc nonsense another go so?
@Winston Smith: I don’t think that’s what I’ve been suggesting but ok.
@Dr. X (Official Continuity Faction): no, I’m suggesting it. I was always put off Naziism mainly by the whole “eradicate the undesirables” philosophy. But I see from your philosophical musings it’s grand to eradicate sections of your own population as long as the numbers don’t exceed those slaughtered by the British in the subcontinent and/or Americas. Are there any valid reasons to oppose to national socialism if this is an acceptable position?
@Winston Smith: That’s not at all what I said. Your reading comprehension is terrible. I just said that there’s nothing uniquely bloody about socialism and that any political project with that much power over other people inevitably runs the risk of commuting atrocities.
At no point did I try to morally equate any of the above.
@Dr. X (Official Continuity Faction): when I said far left governments were dangerous based on their historical record of slaughtering millions you replied “lol as if capitalism hasn’t killed anyone.” Are far left governments dangerous? So far left governments have a recent history of indiscriminate slaughter of their own citizenry?
@Winston Smith: As you’ve named youself after an Orwell character, I’m sure you’re familiar with his line in Road to Wigan Pier:
“Disliking socialism because of the people involved in it is like refusing to get on a train because you don’t like the conductor’s face.” (Paraphrased)
@Dr. X (Official Continuity Faction): it’s not a matter of dislike, it’s a matter of fear. I fear the far left on the basis of the historical performance of far left governments. I fear it a lot more than the far right who I couldn’t see ever gaining enough traction in Ireland to have much influence, something I wouldn’t so confidently say about the far left. And I’m quite left wing myself, I would strongly support a re-emergence of a trade union movement, support welfare state, reasonable healthcare for all, labour rights etc. But I’m not far left, and moderate leftists should not be conflated with communists anymore than moderate conservatives ought be conflated with fascists and monarchists.
@Winston Smith: Believe me, the far right is much more compatible with modern capitalism than the far left. That’s why it’s more of a danger, because in the event of a major crisis when existing institutions lose legitimacy, it’s seen as the easier option.
@Seamus Mac: Yeah because putting profits before people is totally working…..
@Jessie Ginger: yeah, better to have no profits & no jobs or tax for anyone.
@Winston Smith: Only 6 million, wow that a different way to put it
No way can Tommy Robinson, Peter Casey and Jordan Peterson be put in the same category. Makes the article nonsense.
@J J Roche: Very true, especially Peterson, if the author had read his work, he would not have included him in this opinion piece. That said, the other two are opportunisitc and lack intelligence.
@Orla Smith: He thinks the contraceptive pill has destroyed western civilization. He’s a far right crank and anyone who thinks he’s a serious intellectual is a rube who may as well have fallen for a pyramid scheme.
@Dr. X (Official Continuity Faction): Didn’t say I agreed with all of his views, he does give food for thought on a myriad of topics. He is not a far-right crank, although he has plenty of followers of that persuasion. You don’t get to choose who your work reaonates with. I’m not defending him, I just don’t think he can be mentioned in the same breath as Casey and Robinson. Again, I bet you haven’t read any of his writings.
@Dr. X (Official Continuity Faction): I’ve never heard him say its destroyed western civilisation. Could you please send me the link so I can listen to exactly what he says?
@Orla Smith: His writings are right-wing self-help gibberish. He thought google was deliberately manipulating the search results for “bikini”. He’s a crank.
@Dr. X (Official Continuity Faction): thanks. I’ve replied in another one of your comments. Although he doesn’t say contraception destroyed western civilisation he does seems to be alluding to it.
Is there anything you think he’s incorrect about in that video and how does considering that point make him far right do you think?
@Dr. X (Official Continuity Faction): I was enjoying your responses and i even went and watched this contraception talk you suggested
but since then your responses have been aggressive and has put me off your opinion now.
Well done… you almost had something to contribute but you went off on the aggression form. As someone who is neutral to Jordan Peterson your responses are the only ones showing aggressive shut down of someone else’s fairly reasonable response earlier to you. I literally come away with the view now that you are the one unreasonable and the other poster is.
Amazing how that happens right? Engage and debate for the ordinary person – shutting the topic down does nothing
@sVRCsaSg: Right wing thought is best defined by a belief in social hierarchies as being beneficial and natural. This goes back to Edmund Burke, and it describes Peterson to a t.
Apart from the morally repugnant suggestion that women shouldn’t be able to control their own reproduction, his analysis is flat wrong anyway. The reason people aren’t having children and men are in crisis has nothing to do with feminism or the pill, and everything to do with fundamental changes in the economy since the 70s that have vastly increased the cost of starting a family and reduced the amount of stable working and middle class jobs. It’s bird-brained nonsense to blame our current situation on women’s sexual autonomy.
@Sejn Con: I didn’t shut down any topic you big baby.
@Dr. X (Official Continuity Faction): if that’s the definition of right wing than I guess I’m right wing. Even though I believe hierarchies can become authoritarian and we need to ensure social mobility to have the best society and ensure people have the best opportunity to reach their potential.
Interesting point about why people aren’t having the same number of kids. You think the pill was not responsible for increasing female participation in the workforce resulting in a cheapening of labour and leading to new economic realities such as the fact that average households now require two incomes to compete in the housing market? I’ll admit I think this is coupled with globalism but do you think there’s other causes?
@sVRCsaSg: The fact that a man can no longer support a family of 5 on a factory job has absolutely nothing to do with the pill and everything to do with the economic order introduced by Thatcher and Reagan.
The correct name for this is Neoliberalism.
@Dr. X (Official Continuity Faction): how do you figure? What did Thatcher and Reagan do and how can it be undone?
If youre going to talk about increased social assistance and housing then we’re not really reverting to a situation where a man can support a family of 5 on a factory wage. And raising minimum wage for factory workers won’t do it in my opinion as they’re still competing for housing with two income couples.
@sVRCsaSg: The destruction of trade unions, the erosion of the welfare state, the deregulation of finance turning the housing market into a casino, the marketization of every aspect of life. None of this is “natural”. It can be undone with the right political will.
“Still competing”
The state can build as many houses as it wants. This happens in this country in the 1930s and 60s. It could happen again.
Why would you limit your thinking to say this is all women’s fault for having jobs?
@Dr. X (Official Continuity Faction): unfortunately increasing trade union power would only decrease the competitiveness of irish workers at a time when its easier than ever to relocate around the globe. I wish factories could pay more but I don’t see how unless we introduce protectionism and nationalism.
I agree the state should be building more houses. But I also think there should be deregulation/tax breaks in construction which allow more properties to be build in the private sector. The difficulty of building a tall building in Dublin is a prime example of this.
@Dr. X (Official Continuity Faction): I’m not limiting my thinking to women having jobs. Globalisation has played a large role as has technology. And in so many ways I believe we’re better off, in large part due to the contributions of women in the workforce. But in other ways the normalisation of two incomes into a household seriously disadvantages any family who try to maintain a life on one income.
@sVRCsaSg: But what are you going to do about it? Either you restrict women from working, which is a terrible idea because this isn’t Saudi Arabia, or you try and find political solutions through intervention in the economy.
@Dr. X (Official Continuity Faction): I’m not too sure what to do about it to be honest. The world is changing so fast and in many ways for the better. But we need to be able to discuss these things openly without being labelled far-right.
The first step to solving any issue is identifying it before an honest discussion can take place. Unfortunately this is getting harder and harder to do.
Its a big conversation to have though and I’m sure we’d agree on a lot of measure that would help people struggling to raise families. If it’s any consolation I wouldn’t agree with limiting female freedom. I’m hopeful that we can mature as a society and focus on the things that are really important.
@J J Roche: Three people who deliberately cultivate a controversial image by singling out groups in society for personal gain. How can you not put them in the same category?
@J J Roche: oh they can…. your failure to make the connection does not mean the article is nonsense
@sVRCsaSg: so you wrote aboce
“You think the pill was not responsible for increasing female participation in the workforce resulting in a cheapening of labour and leading to new economic realities such as the fact that average households now require two incomes to compete in the housing market? ”
Care to elaborate on those” economic realities”
Would one be the fact that banks and big capital have been given free reign to wreak havoc with the markets?
Did a 12 year old write this?
So Jordan Peterson is “far right” now? Why? Is it because he calls the leftist neo liberals out on their contant b**lsh*t?
@Charles Chair: that’s a hard one to understand ok.. but it’s easier for somebody to call him far-right than try to engage with him and his arguments. He is one very very clever guy…
@Charles Chair: anyone who doesn’t embrace the extreme left is far right now apparently.
@Charles Chair: completely agree. Jordan Peterson is not far right and its lazy journalism to say that he is just because the far left like to call him alt right. The man is one of the few in the global public sphere that speaks some sense.
@Charles Chair: No it’s because he thinks women shouldn’t be allowed to use the pill.
@Charles Chair: he is ultra conservative believing in enforced monogomy, the far right amongst other things believes in subjugating women so he does fit into that term just not the hatred of non white people part https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2018/may/23/jordan-peterson-public-intellectual-isnt-clever-violent-men-monogamy
@Dr. X (Official Continuity Faction): Nah.
As someone who honestly is trying to find their way around this far left and far right nonsense his views in that video are very interesting.
Long term strategy – The more people who see or read Jordan Peterson’s work and decide on their own if they agree or not is more effective than just telling someone – he’s a crank. The whole article literally describes you.
@Sejn Con: If you’ve been paying attention you’d see that I’ve given very clear and specific reasons he’s a crank.
Excluding but not limited to: thinking google was manipulating his search for “bikini”; thinking lobsters’ social interaction provides a useful template for humans; believing in a conspiracy theory about French intellectuals trying to brainwash the worlds youth; sounding like he’s constantly on the verge of tears.
@Dr. X (Official Continuity Faction): he never said that. Why are you lying?
@Siobhan Nì Loinsigh: He said literally all of those things to the letter, what are you talking about?
@Dr. X (Official Continuity Faction): look link me to the video or the quote where he says that. I’m willing to change my mind.
@Siobhan Nì Loinsigh: Here is a link to his words on this subject of the pill and female individuation. https://jordanbpeterson.com/philosophy/new-years-letter/
No where does the word, “shouldn’t” appear.
@Siobhan Nì Loinsigh: Your hands don’t work? Just google the things I mentioned. It’s not hard to find.
@Siobhan Nì Loinsigh: No he doesn’t say it should be illegal here. He just implies it. This is the problem with him. Everything he says is couched in this vague, mystical nonsense that whenever anyone tries to pin him down, it’s somehow their fault for misunderstanding him.
It’s a grift and a con, and it’s what cult leaders do.
@Siobhan Nì Loinsigh: https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/03/the-intellectual-we-deserve
This is the definitive take on JP.
@Charles Chair: eh “neo-liberal” refers to a particular right wing ultra capitalist economic approach. Not left wing at all.
@Charles Chair: neo liberalism is a economic right wind doctrine so how do you link that to “left”
Certainly “far right” politics is repugnant. However it amazes me how some parties that aren’t even right-wing at all and occupy central political ground are labelled “far-right” by political opponents. Some on the Left in Ireland call anybody that advocates a sensible and prudent economic policy “far-right”. We often see FF and FG labelled nazis when there isn’t even a main stream right-wing party in Ireland.
@Stephen Duffy: it’s just that the left have swung so far left that in their deluded minds anyone in the other direction is far right to them
@Stephen Duffy: the people who think that FF and FF neo liberal economic policies of detroying unions and privatizing public services are prudent are the winners. their economic ideology is dividing society into winners and losers and decreasing the middle classes. the nordic model shows that there can be a balanced approach. In those countries FG FF would definitely be counted as very right wing
@Marcus Briody: In Sweden the public pension system is partially privatised, private for profit schools operate in the public education system (and are much more popular than public ones) and private for profit companies run public hospitals in some municipalities. There is no inheritance tax, people on low wages pay very high income rates (half of irish workers pay no income tax), shock horror people pay for water and pay property taxes based on value of their home. The dole is time limited and based on contributions paid in and there is welfare payment to single parent fammilies. Much of what goes on in Sweden would be considered rightwing here.
Hang on, Jordan Peterson is a liberal, he’s certainly not right wing or alt right. He’s very popular with men as many of them are sick to the back teeth of being lectured about their inherent toxic masculinity and privilege by screeching 3rd wave feminists.
@CryptoWilf: he believes in hierarchy as beneficial and natural. That’s textbook right-wing politics.
@Dr. X (Official Continuity Faction): hierarchy is beneficial and natural. Do you think labelling something “right wing” automatically makes it wrong? Did you get a chance to read the above article by any chance?
@CryptoWilf: his views are the complete opposite to liberal, he is ultra conservative believing in enforced monogomy, the far right amongst other things believes in subjugating women so he does fit into that term just not the hatred of non white people part. https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2018/may/23/jordan-peterson-public-intellectual-isnt-clever-violent-men-monogamy
@Winston Smith: Where does that end? Why is slavery wrong but the subordination of women is ok? Murdering and pillaging your enemies may be natural but it’s still wrong. Of course “labeling” something as right wing doesn’t make it wrong. I think something being right wing makes it wrong. And Jordan Peterson, is most certainly right wing.
@Dr. X (Official Continuity Faction): so because extreme examples of hierarchy are wrong all forms of hierarchy are wrong? That’s an appeal to extremes, a form of logical fallacy. Hierarchies are beneficial and natural and have existed in various form throughout all of human history.
Your notion that if something is right wing it is automatically wrong just illustrates your own close mindedness. Family values, immigration control, personal responsibility would be examples of moderate right wing positions. Are these wrong in your view? Could they be deemed wrong objectively?
You’re an ideologue. The use of fallacy to support philosophical positions is a big red flag in that regard. Wasn’t really needed though, since you decided anyone who questions your beliefs is just plain wrong.
@Winston Smith: Every single positive social development from the abolition of slavery to the 5 day work week to women’s suffrage and gay rights has been a left wing idea. And every one of these was opposed by conservatives.
Conservatism is the philosophy of keeping people in their place.
@Dr. X (Official Continuity Faction): you didn’t answer his question. Are all hierarchal structures bad?
@Siobhan Nì Loinsigh: Unless entered voluntarily and without coercion, then yes.
@Dr. X (Official Continuity Faction): I’ve been coerced into my job by economic necessity. I have to take orders from a manger while in work. Is this wrong?
I am not a hermit. I live in a society. This society has laws. I have not voluntarily entered any agreement to obey these laws. But if I break those laws I may find myself reprimanded by police, judges, prison officers. Is this wrong?
@Dr. X (Official Continuity Faction): but how is Peterson advocating for fascism? Just one more question can, in your opinion, you hold both right and left leaning ideals at the same time and still be coming from a place of good intent?
@Winston Smith: It’s not wrong that you have to work, it’s wrong that you don’t have any democratic control of your workplace. Of course people need managers, but workplaces should be democracies and not private tyrannies.
@Dr. X (Official Continuity Faction): what aspects of a workplace should be democratic? Should a recently hired janitor have equal say in production outputs as a highly qualified, 20 year employee of the firm with intimate knowledge of market demand for their products? Have you any examples of companies or industries where democratic workplaces were more, or even as, productive as their hierarchical, meritocratic counterparts?
Being subject to the authority of police and judiciary is a hierarchy to which we are all forced to subscribe. Is this wrong?
@Siobhan Nì Loinsigh: I didn’t say he was advocating for fascism. I said he was far-right, which is not necessarily the same thing.
Can they still have good intentions? Of course but that doesn’t help you arrive at a useful moral position. Everyone from fascists to anarchists has good intentions, it’s just that they all have very different ideas of what constitutes “good.”
@Winston Smith: It has nothing to do with equals pay for different skill levels.
There are many examples of businesses that exist as partnerships. Co-Ops are a good example. Of course the police are necessary. But that is (in theory anyway) consensual because the Police are supposed to be democratically accountable, unlike your boss.
@Dr. X (Official Continuity Faction): I didn’t say anything about equal pay for different skill levels. I asked if unqualified people should have the same democratic voice as highly qualified people regarding corporate decisions? Or should there be a form of hierarchy of authority based on merit within an organisation?
So are social hierarchies such as police and judiciary ok as long as there is a democratic aspect to them (judiciary is by design quite undemocratic though, and rightly so)? Above you said people who believe in hierarchy as beneficial are text book right wingers, and that right wingers are by default wrong. Are you wrong now? Or were you maybe being a little too absolutist?
@Winston Smith: No, it would still involve delegation of work and decisions to people with relevant skills and knowledge, but this is still compatible with democracy. Think about how our government works now.
Justice is democratically accountable. We have juries of our peers, judges appointed by democratic bodies, and democratic control over the laws.
@Dr. X (Official Continuity Faction): are hierarchies of authority acceptable if there is a democratic aspect to them? Might they even be described as beneficial? You seemed rather opposed to Mr Peterson’s defence of social hierarchies above; have you changed your position slightly?
@Winston Smith: There is a major distinction between “natural” hierarchies and the consensual hierarchies of democratic organizations. The type of sex and gender hierarchies Peterson supports do not have any such democratic element. They are founded in supposed natural tendencies and can’t be opted in and out of.
@Dr. X (Official Continuity Faction): @Dr. X (Official Continuity Faction): your words, “he believes in hierarchy as beneficial and natural”. Which in your view makes him right wing. I asked do you believe all hierarchal structures are bad. You said, “as long as they are voluntary and non coercive”. What makes you assume Peterson is advocating for non voluntary and coercive hierarchy’s?
Ok let me word my second question a bit more clearly. Is it morally wrong to hold both right and left wing positions?
@Dr. X (Official Continuity Faction): I can’t opt in or out of the legal hierarchies of society. Vague references to democracy do not change this, I have no opt in or opt out options. And aren’t the meritocratic hierarchies in organisations that you’ve said you support forms of natural hierarchies based on ability?
@Siobhan Nì Loinsigh: I already explained this, the kind of hierarchies he advocates- “natural” ones relating to sex and gender for example , are based on supposed immutable realities that can’t be opted out of. For example, he absolutely believes that the “natural” hierarchy of men and women can’t be opted in or out of.
@Winston Smith: “Family Values” lol
@CryptoWilf: He’s very popular with some men that like to blame their own inadequacies on “screeching 3rd wave feminists”. Peterson starts with something that’s objectively true, slips in some right wing b.s. in the middle and then polishes of the turd by making insecure people feel smart for agreeing with him. It’s not new or particularly clever but all the anon accounts and Twitter bots love him.
@Dr. X (Official Continuity Faction): When has he ever spoken about a ‘natural hierarchy of men and women’ though?
Hierarchies are how humans arrange ourselves in every aspect of our lives. JPs position is that in a balanced society the left works to renew the hierarchies to prevent them rigidifying and becoming corrupt/tyrannical while the right works to maintain the hierarchies and keep them functional.
Can’t see how anyone could honestly say he’s far right??
@Dr. X (Official Continuity Faction): hierarchy is indeed natural! It is part of our species behaviour since forever. We evolved during millions of years for having a hierarchical society just like ants and that’s the reason why there has never been a communist country ever! We are not more than animals with our own surviving instincts and mating rituals. You can’t change a species behaviour like that in a handful of decades! Communism is impossible to achieve due to human nature. You need somebody in charge of things and you need law enforcement. This in itself is against a classless society with no hierarchies.
You can get some people to work together in a communist-ish community (like kibbutz for instance), but these people opt in and are free to go if change their minds. A communist *country* is impossible.
Peterson is not right wing, the left wing like to label him that way as they’re intimidated by him. Getting to the heart of the rise, working class communities are being decimated by immigration and nobody caring about integration, so they’re absolutely bound to react at some point. And politicians scared to get involved incase they get branded racist. That pressure will mount until someone has the maturity to explore how to fix it.
@Alan Currie: he is ultra conservative believing in enforced monogomy, the far right amongst other things believes in subjugating women so he does fit into that term just not the hatred of non white people part. the real reason why poor communities are angry is not because of immigrants but because the elite have way way too much money and we are left fighting for the scraps. the brave take on the powerful cowards attack fellow poor people. if there were no foreigners here the poor would be as poor as they are now, the problem is the power that the rich have and unless we take them on poor communities will stay poor https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2018/may/23/jordan-peterson-public-intellectual-isnt-clever-violent-men-monogamy
@Marcus Briody: The Guardian? Really? Lol
@Marcus Briody: the elite control business, business controls politicians, and politicians can flood the market to create cheaper labour. Tell me how you think the African gangs in Balbriggan or Blanchardstown are contributing to our economy for example? These kind of topics need discussion. Yes there are some poor who have no ambition or will to improve their situation, but that’s cherry-picking the stats, our housing problem is evidence of what’s really going on.
@Marcus Briody: the guardian AKA Pravda
It is ture however that the modern left has abandoned the working class to play identity politics, university educated, upper class feminists can’t virtue signal their superior morality taking about white working class men! it work completely shatter their word view to look below their feet. But its nothing new Orwell wrote about it in “Road to Wigan Pier” Upper class Socialists hate the working class.
@John Mc Grath: Finally somebody posted on the article.
Jordan Peterson is not far right, he is not even right wing on most of his views,the conversation between Jordan and Sam Harris in Dublin had nothing to do with politics. This is the major problem we’re having calling people far right because you disagree with their views. We have a media which is either driven by an ideological world view, is lazy or just inept.
Jordan Peterson is an example of a rational individual. God bless that man!
Was this article originally published in the College Tribune? Reading this I’m immediately transported back to my student days in Belfield listening to far left bores drone on about the plight of the working class and the evils of capitalism. The single biggest impediment to social mobility and advancement are left wing idealogues and demagogues (lest we forget dearly departed comrade Chavez). Left wing
@James Dunne: ireland has never had a left wing government and is one of the most unequal socieities in the developed world. right wing parties have had all the power left wing none but you claim that the left are somehow the reason for lack of social mobility. whay do i suspect that you vote FG are wealthy and couldn’t give a damn about poor people or the planet, you only care about yourself
@Marcus Briody: Ireland has never had a truly right wing government though, FF is a catch all, broad tent party while FG has always been a centre right (perhaps even an aspirational social democratic) party. The assumption you make that FG voters are all wealthy and uninterested in the poor is based on the ages old tradition of the left assuming they have a monopoly on compassion. Ambition isn’t a dirty word and everyone should be afforded the opportunity for social mobility and wealth but the left seems more interested in keeping people stratified into arcane social groups.
You make many valid points in the article but the way you lump Jordan Peterson into the far right basket is just lazy and factually incorrect.
It’s easy to judge a man by the company he keeps.
@Paul Maguire: Touring with gay libertarians? Russell Brand? Is there someone you’d like to point to? The IDW which is entirely left wing!
@J.D. Finnerty: he is ultra conservative believing in enforced monogomy, the far right amongst other things believes in subjugating women so he does fit into that term just not the hatred of non white people part https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2018/may/23/jordan-peterson-public-intellectual-isnt-clever-violent-men-monogamy
@Marcus Briody: Here’s some links to the NYT article where this claim was made and his response to it. It should be pretty clear to anyone without an agenda that what he is taking about is marriage as a social norm.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/18/style/jordan-peterson-12-rules-for-life.html
https://jordanbpeterson.com/media/on-the-new-york-times-and-enforced-monogamy/
An article about labels and all the labels he comes up with are applied wrongly. Labels makes it easy to divide people, cause confusion and is hiding what is actually going on in the country. You have to be able to call a spade a spade, see things for what they actually are. PCism is the greatest camoufalge ever designed.
@Dave Doyle: But you just used a label to drive your argument.
@J: I named the engine that produces the labels.
Jordan Peterson and Nigel Garage far right that’s is funny I must say .. The irony or this article
Copied and pasted from Orwell’s The Road to Wigan Pier without attribution.
@Stephen Kelly: you’re a lover of Orwell obv.
The truth is that, to many people calling themselves Socialists, revolution does not mean a movement of the masses with which they hope to associate themselves; it means a set of reforms which ‘we’, the clever ones, are going to impose upon ‘them’, the Lower Orders. On the other hand, it would be a mistake to regard the book-trained Socialist as a bloodless creature entirely incapable of emotion. Though seldom giving much evidence of affection for the exploited, he is perfectly capable of displaying hatred—a sort of queer, theoretical, in vacuo hatred—against the exploiters.
@Winston Smith: How about Nicholas Maduro He will leaving Venezuela soon?
The problem in Ireland is you can’t shut the far left up. They have a couple of percent of the vote, but every time you look at or listen to a current affairs piece, you have Coppinger, Daly, Boyd Barret spouting their nonsense.
6 minute old account? Created to spout right-wing guff against socialists.
@Paul Maguire: That’s right Paul, I created the account six minutes before you posted, then travelled back in time 2 hours to post the comment, all this so that I could just have a go at some looney ‘socialists.’
@CrabaRev: What standing up for society is nonsense is it???
@Jessie Ginger: Socialists only stand up for a section of society. Those who feel entitled to the proceeds of society without the responsibility of contributing to it.
Jordan Peterson, Peter Casey= far right? Give me a break.
I double-dare the author to have a chat with Jordan Peterson.
@Ciarán Mac Cormaic: Journal probably have to hire security for the author, similar to the nonsense spouted by Ch4 after the Cathy Newman interview.
Stopped reading when you lumpted jordan Petersen in with the other clowns as being far right. One must be far right if one dissagrees with the lefties? Listen, and I mean really listen to some of his talks. Common bloody sense he speaks.
‘Opinion; the media needs to be more careful with labels or they will lose all meaning’.
When you call people far right in order to get clicks you cheapen the term.
I’m very familiar with Petersons work and agree with a lot of what he says. Now I’m also familiar with Tommy Robinson and Farage so I can draw distinctions between these people. But the more you call logical and sane people like Peterson “far-right” the more you leave people thinking ‘wow maybe I am far-right because I agree with all these so called far-right speakers’.
You’re cheapening the term and if a genuine far-right figure gains popularity nobody will give any thought to you labelling them as such.
I know there’s pressure to get clicks but don’t sacrifice your journalistic integrity – you’re better than that.
When modern liberal terminology is almost exclusively concerned with grouping people into boxes based on their race/gender etc. and assigning attitudes and attributes to each group then the problem is the terminology itself and not that the ‘working classes’ have a low regard of it.
The new fashionable opinion on racism is that it can only go one way and that all white people are racist by virtue of being white and possessing white privilege – its crazy.
https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/tv-radio-web/can-you-be-racist-against-white-people-1.3591110
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/wjy5w5/the-many-ways-well-intentioned-white-people-are-still-low-key-racist
Maybe if you’re a middle class 20 something without a care in the world its easy to buy into this nonsense when spreading these ideas doesn’t really affect you in any way. Now imagine trying to explain to someone at the bottom of the income scale just scraping by that they are actually a racist benefiting from their whiteness and that they need to shut up and get with the program. What do you suppose they are going to think?
The main social divisions are along monetary lines, the modern left seems to have forgotten this.
I think there is a lot of truth in this. That is why the new party being set up by Peadar Toibin may be a fascinating development. This looks like being a party with left economic policies, but pro-life and Euroskeptic. You can expect the mainstream pro-Brussels liberal-left to start branding such a movement as alt-right, but I would suggest instead that it represents a positive form of diversity on the left.
@Richard Barrett: Many of what are often called “far right” movements in Europe actually have left wing economic policies – The national front in France, the Swedish democrats are just two examples. They are anti-immigration, anti-EU, anti-trade but pro-nationalisation, pro-state intervention in the economy, pro-welfare state etc. So nothing new in that. What we also need in Ireland is a true liberal party.
The more the loonie left attempts to paint everyone with conservative views as far right, the bigger the snowball effect will be. Just look at what’s happening on the entire continent of Europe. I can’t wait for Gen Z to become of voting age – the pendulum will swing and boy it will swing hard!
Why have the radical left given the ideals free speech and collectivist criticism over to the far-right? How on Earth is Jordan Peterson far-right? Thats utterly bizarre. It’s articles like this that push rational leftists towards the right. Don’t be fooled.
@Siobhan Nì Loinsigh: he is right wing caz he holds right wing views. Or defends them in the guise of “discussion”. Now in this comment section people have pointed to his right wing leanings and to that, you peterson followers say, äh tis but one thing…. Genuinely baffling, is it intentional or you guys just can’t see it. I do agree that he is not in the same class as rabid Robinson but he is right wing all right
@Adeel McDangerson: Ok but what ‘right wing’ views and back them up with some evidence please? By evidence I mean show me JP expressing a particular view not some empty opinion piece from the guardian or salon or some such. Any correct claim is easily backed up with links to videos,documents etc.
There have been some crazy claims made here with absolutely no backup. Its annoying in a sense but the effect it has is that people unfamiliar with the man who take a look for themselves and see that the claims here are complete fabrications. Surely you must understand this?
Absolutely despicable behaviour on the part of The Journal for having a photo of Peter Casey on the link to this article about “far right politics”. The leftist agenda continues…
Far left, far right, centrist, liberal etc etc…..people are getting lumped by others into these groups for having their own views on issues, people who don’t even identify with political parties or views are now branded as being with “that party” or “political group”, with those views, when infact lots of people simply are expressing their own personal opinion from what they see and hear. The truth is there is a fear growing that ordinary folk are turning away from groups and political parties and thinking for themselves and more important, asking the tough questions and seeking their own answers rather than being sheep accepting the status quo, so then the usual drum bangers will shut down this sort of action with labels like right wing or hard left or racist, xenophobic etc etc
Jordan Peterson is not far right, this is the problem, people with different opinions which can back them up with science are labeled far right by the far left
The author of the article simply does not understand what “far right” means.
That you think Jordan Peterson is “far right” tells me how clueless you actually are about politics. The Journal must be desperate if they are giving you a column.
Please ! Lazy lazy journalism … if you can even call this article journalism.
Do your research before you put pen to paper or fingers to keyboard.
Jordan Petterson came to public attention because the Canadian government decided it would be a good idea to police language …. something that even Hitler, Stalin, Mao ever did. The Canadian government in its wisdom decided that if you failed to address someone by their “preferred” pronoun then you were committing a hate crime. Petterson came out and said that this was lunacy and attacked the very fabric of free speech.
How is that being right wing ?
No government has ever made failure to use correct speech a crime.
Massachusetts, would that be a teamster rich area?
That was the most condescending load of rubbish I’ve read in quite a while from the journals opinion piece.
I wish the article gave more examples than Frankie Gaffney of working class voices being “silenced”. Without clear examples, it’s hard to take it seriously.
@David J McDonagh: yes and as for the twitterati *eye roll*
Having read the comments, I completely forgot what the original article was about. For what it’s worth, the Irish middle class left despise (secretly) the real working class. Imagine a university professor’s daughter coming home with her new boyfriend from the local council estate. See how long the prof’s lefty ideals survive that scenario
@Virgil: imagine having so much time to sit there and think up these scenarios.
Here is one, once the imaginary Professor gets to know the bloke and sees that his daughter is happy with him, approves of the relationship. Thus rendering your “what iffery” just another routine story in humankinds overall story arc…
Get a hobby bud.
I’ve a seen a steady increase in racist attitudes masquarading as some rational centre right mindset and outright flagrant lies being bandied about here the last year or so.
@Bruce van der Gutschmitzer: TheLiberal.ie is a big big problem in this regard. A viciously racist website and FB page masquerading as a social media general interest publication.
@Paul Maguire: when they call themselves theliberal then you know somethings up akin to the Democratic People’s Republic of North Korea.
@Bruce van der Gutschmitzer: only the last year?
Well maybe we could look at what happens in France with the yellow vests. At the moment they are all around the place, striking, protesting and the like. I am pretty sure there are very good reasons to protest but…. Melenchon’s far left movement is so busy protesting that the big winner is é Pen’s far right and I would be surprised if for the next election her movement comes first,!
So right=bad: left=good. Only problem is right are being heard and left invent words their following can’t understand. Nothing to do with content and persuasive argument?
Just stop capitalism they only pay slave labour wages
Give the left a voice
Venture Capitalists ruining the country they haven’t a clue what they are doing
Destroying our native companies
And most of all pay Zero tax
@Jonathan Yeo: Who is denying the left a voice?
I think the main reason Frankie Gaffney was attacked was because he questioned the feminist nonsense of male privilege. He did not feel privileged by virtue of the fact that he was born male (nor because he was white).The attacks on him were disgraceful and a definite attack on free speech by those who like to define themselves as liberal.
The real problem facing us is this nonsense called identity politics which in some ways is a variation on racism. It’s a pity people just cannot discuss issues on their merits instead of resorting to labels which is the resort of those who are unable to construct a coherent argument.
So we are far right if we see mothers with children living in hotels wondering where the grandparents are Where there partners are .Where all workers who pay tax mortgages voice their opinion and are branded far right .Give me a break .I’m so fed up with all this scenario…..
far-PC led to it.
People can not name things and behaviours as they are
as they will be called racist straight away.
These people are ennoyed and vote for anybody who facilitate it.
@Gee: so you are saying that if you do not get to be an ass to someone, you will vote in an ass to let you be an ass? Okay…
How is it hard to just call people what they want to be called. It does not harm you in any way. But apparently its too hard just to be a decent human being. I am surprised these people so hurt by PC are calling other people snowflakes for pointing out their small crualties(and yes using slurs to address people is a crual) when they are the real snowflakes. They can’t take the simple fact that they can’t address people the way they want.
The Journal comments sections has always been trash in fairness.
@Lamhfada: It’s a home for the alt-right inbetween articles on TheLiberal.
Looking at the comments it would appear the far right are out in numbers already this morning. I find it amusing how the far right are always outraged when you refer to them as far right. It’s actually a tactic to try and get more followers by attempting to get people to think they are normal and not far right. Have no doubt, the writer above is correct and the commenters here are far right supporters doing this very thing.
@Wade Wilson: Just curious, what would you define as far right?
@Neill Mcilwaine: Anyone who disagrees with him about anything.
Sealion alert.
@Wade Wilson: It is a tactic that is used to try and normalise words and behavior. For example they tend not to use obvious words to describe their bigoted ideologies instead using subtle phrases and iconography that blends into the mainstream.
@J: Like what? I think you two are chasing after shadows
@J: Right but these, if taken at face value are stories about racist plant workers and alt-right clothing. There’s no use of ‘subtle phrases and iconography to blend into the mainstream’, just blatant extremism.
The original poster claimed that the commenters here are far right supporters, and then offered zilch to back that up.
Incorrect statement in your article; Jordan Petersen is not part of the far right. Where did you obtain your definitions?
the economist Thomas Piketty explains that the most stable time in history was after world war 2 when unions were strong and people could easily bring up a family. then free market economics came along in the ’70s to destroy unions and make more money for the rich. Thatcher and Reagan brought it in and we first saw it here when FF/PDs were elected in 1997. this model creates instability and boom bust cycles as we had with housing thanks to the policies of FF/PD
this created huge divides in Irish society as it has done anywhere that it has been introduced. The people who have been disenfranchised are turning to the two extremes of far right and far left because the centre no longer appeals to them. the media has been taken over by billionaires because they know that its important to direct this anger away from them. all our societal issues could be solved if we taxed teh rich more like they do in the Nordic countries but this is rarely ever said in our media
The elite as absorbing more and more of the profits leaving less and less for the rest of us. a study a few years ago showed that the top 5% here owned 38% of the wealth whereas in Sweden the top 20% only owned 36% whereas our top 20% owned 74%, while the bottom 50% here saw their net worth drop from 12% to 5% during the recession. this has made a lot of angry people who had not been interested in politics before when times were good. Many of these people went online and found far right sites paid for by the rich that told them to hate other poor people whether it be refugees or the unemployed, basically anyone other than rich people. poor people who support far right ideas are basically fighting amongst ourselves for the crumbs off the table of the elite whereas left wing people want to take the cake off the rich.
right wing are basically cowards fighting the weak whereas left wing people are brave because they want to take on the powerful. its easy to attack weak people its far mor difficult to attack the people with all the money and power
@Marcus Briody: the longer the post, the less worth it has
@Marcus Briody: are you gainfully employed?
Criticism isn’t silencing, you nitwit.
@Wendy Lyon: no need to call names in fairness.
I think the comments section here quite clearly highlights the problems that the left has. Rather than address the main issue the columnist is trying to raise, everyone seems to be jumping on the fact he has mentioned Peterson/Robinson et al and decided to rubbish the whole piece. “Perfection is the enemy of progress” seems to apply here, especially when it comes to left/liberal/identity politics where anyone shown not to embody ALL of their values (groupthink anyone) has their arguments shut down altogether.
It’s a shame, as no one is perfect I can only see the left/liberal side of the aisle (where I count myself) losing the middle and therefore losing an opportunity to drive any change.
I actually thought this was a really good piece.
@Adam Ryan: Good point. In fairness to this guy he does at least pose some good questions, its just a shame he had to lead by linking Peterson in particular to the far right. Articles starting similarly do tend to be just pure propaganda.
@Adam Ryan: I was beginning to feel lost all the comments and two are actually about the article. Losing the middle is where it is all at in Ireland at elections
Peterson did not sell out anything last year. Ticket sales were poor so they reduced the price significantly to try get bums on seats… Check your facts, Conor.
People are sick of PC bullshit
@Marty: They aren’t….
Bertie ahern proclaimed his socialism in 2004 to great laughter in the Dail yet the same politicians laughing are paying for his retirement & to the middle classes during the boom he did believe in socialism for the many & capitalism for the few & proved so like him or not but the left wing tds in Govt now are just broken shadows of the Govt power hungry with no principles or respect for the working or middle classes
The working class can’t learn double speak you have to go to university to learn that So the left has to silence their straight honest speaking. The left silences truth and is preventing world peace from coming
Who aspires to be working class these days? Come to Erris and they’re all middle class aspirants, there’s nothing they don’t know about one upmanship, big weddings, brands and labels, foreign travel, swish cars, eating out, big birthday bashes, on and on. Nobody aspires to working class and if for one moment someone is deemed to have more, then it’s sure aren’t we as good as they they are. A nice dose of begrudgery is always on tap. Just the same synchophancy has its place and the brown nose syndrome is always up there, never know when you need a favour. Oh and at least 3 to 4 beauty salons a spa, numerous hairdressers, it’s still hard to get an appointment. When push comes to shove they claim to hate the toffs, but the lord save us from dem lefty working class.
@helen walsh: Well I would point out that around half the population only earns less than €25000
I agree with some of this article, though I’m not always on the same page as the wider Left agenda.
I think Identity Politics has a different context in Europe relative to the US. In the US the issue is largely an outgrowth of resentments stemming from slavery and the Jim Crow era. The term “White privilege” is in part a hangover from the days when White masters owned Black slaves in the US, and after that, from when Black people were not allowed to vote in many states because of discriminatory laws like literacy tests, IQ tests and poll-taxes.
There are some parallels I suppose between Identity Politics regarding immigration from the Third World into the US and Europe, and regarding LGBT issues.
I think minorities are more concerned with issues of economic inequality than checking every dot and comma of speech to find something offensive. Obvious the “n” word is unacceptable. But I think its going too far to protest over Jordan Peterson not using gender pronouns in a university that has created around 10 different ones including “zhe” (what does that mean)?
This article is absolute trash, even for The Journal.
The radical left are of much more concern to most people that the so called “far right”
If you love your country and want to protect your culture, you are called far right…
If you are ok with legal immigrants here to work but question mass migration of refugees, you are called far right…
If you believe there are 2 genders, you are called far right…
If you are pro judeo christian values, you are called far right…
If you believe the unborn have a right to life, you are called far right…
basically, if you don’t agree with the radical left wing progressive agenda, you are far right…
Its a joke and the good people of Ireland and many other countries are finally waking up to this nonsense.
The many new parties forming prove my point.
While I agree with elements of the article, labelling Jordan Peterson far right and Sinn Fein left wing did make me chuckle.
the Shrinking violets of the Left!! What a load of tripe, I wonder how much the J gave you to pen that article.
The premise of your article is flawed because if you understand History you will know that the “Left” were never found wanting when it came to a good fight either physical or political. What about the failed Government Water charges project, what or who brought that to an end.
You need to get out more!
it’s all about votes
Good piece and you are right on people forgetting the traditional working class. I know I am one and feel lost. We had a center left party but tats gone. If you dont fit in to the right or the supposed left, there is nowhere to go. People spends weeks complaining about a word rather than actually dealing with the issues. So stupid and sad. Buying things with money they dont have, that they dont NEED, to impress people that dont matter. Status. Who the hell needs 3 foreign holidays a year. NEED is the bit hat counts not showing off. The PC world is not very working class by nature.
The Trade Union movement that traditionally represented working class interests has been gutted by the GIG economy . This, IMO, has led the working class to being aspirational Middle Class . This delusion has led an insecure working class to blame
welfarites, migrants , people of colour for denying them their fantasy instead of targeting
the small economic elite who slowly but surely are controlling the nations wealth.
The GIG economy’s use of technology and disruptive business models is the tool in trade of the economic elite to create under/unemployment and support the puppeteers of the far Right spin immigration, welfare cheats and people of ethnic origins as blockers of thisdisillusioned “aspirational middle class”
While all of this is happening, Trade Unions and their political representatives, The Labour Party” has lost its way in trying to follow these “aspirationals” rather than lead them with a realistic economic analysis and targeting the real culprits, the Economic Elite.
Right Wing Populism is not the answer for the Working Class; Trade Unionism is.
have your say